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[Addai]

Lughsan35 wrote...

The joining was done long before Cailan would have had any opportunity to learn the boy's heritage.  If the  Arl of Redcliffe was a backstabbing little blighter like Arl Howe, then he might have known prior to ritual. 

Even knowing the rituals lethality this is also something that everyone who wants to assure a bastard has no claim would encourage...

I simply think Cailan had all but forgotten about Alistair until he came face to face with him in Duncan's entourage.  In any case, it would have been a matter of frying pan and fire.  If Alistair had taken templar vows, he would have ended up a Chantry man and lyrium-addled.  Not exactly a savory prospect for an heir, either.  Given Cailan's appreciation of the Wardens, I could imagine him giving Duncan a go-ahead at conscripting Alistair.

It's really hard to say how Cailan felt about his half-brother, though I could see him appreciating the fact that a Theirin would be a Grey Warden, so long as he also got his due for stopping a Blight.

[errant_knight]

We have to remember that prospectiveTemplars don't get to just leave. The right of conscription is pretty much the only thing that could have gotten Alistair away from the Chantry. That being said, it seems unlikely to me that Duncan conscripted Alistair to have him available as heir. That wasn't Duncan's mission or his concern. He wouldn't have conscripted Alistair if he didn't want him for the grey wardens.



Eamon had only broached his concerns about an heir the year before, and had just renewed his push for some effort to secure the sucession. It's a pretty new issue. It probably didn't seem important until Ostagar, and until Cailan realized he was going to have to go into battle without the Orleisian troops.



We'll never know, though. Alistair was conscripted approximately six months after Eamon suggested putting Anora aside for the first time. The timing is interesting. Conspiracy theories have been built on less.

[Addai]

Considering that Alistair says Duncan kept him out of battles because he was the heir, though, it does seem that Duncan was thinking about both things. If Duncan was doing this because he had made a promise to Maric... (insert suggestion as to Alistair's mother)... it would make sense that in this one case, Duncan was not acting as single-minded darkspawn-killing machine.



But yes, what you said about the Chantry was what I also was getting at. Alistair could not have inherited as a templar knight, so if he was to be made heir, he would have to be snatched away from the grand cleric. A king could not do this, ironically, but the Grey Wardens could.

[erilben]

Riordan says that Duncan was always overprotective of his new recruits. That's why he kept Alistair out of the battles.

Duncan wouldn't like Alistiar to become king because GWs are suppose to be neutral. David Gaider even says that Duncan would be against making Alistiar king: http://social.biowar...50435/17#667134

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

Considering that Alistair says Duncan kept him out of battles because he was the heir, though, it does seem that Duncan was thinking about both things. If Duncan was doing this because he had made a promise to Maric... (insert suggestion as to Alistair's mother)... it would make sense that in this one case, Duncan was not acting as single-minded darkspawn-killing machine.

But yes, what you said about the Chantry was what I also was getting at. Alistair could not have inherited as a templar knight, so if he was to be made heir, he would have to be snatched away from the grand cleric. A king could not do this, ironically, but the Grey Wardens could.

I think that's a misstatement by Alistair. Cailan specifies that the PC and Alistiar should go to the tower. The PC can object that he/she can do it alone, in which case, Cailan insists that Alistair go too. Alistair wasn't there. He just knows that Duncan is telling him that he can't be in the battle because the king said so. He may think that's an excuse, or he may be worried enough that he's not thinking about the implications of that so much as he's dwelling on being treated differently because of his birth yet again. I think it says more about Alistair than Duncan.

erilben wrote...
Riordan says that Duncan was always overprotective of his new recruits. That's why he kept Alistair out of the battles.

Duncan wouldn't like Alistiar to become king because GWs are suppose to be neutral. David Gaider even says that Duncan would be against making Alistiar king: http://social.biowar...50435/17#667134

Good point. Riordan does make a point of that. And while it can be argued that warden neutrality is highly debatable, Duncan seems to be a warden commander who lived by that in a way that some haven't.

Modifié par errant_knight, 30 mars 2010 - 04:28 .

[Costin_Razvan]

It is difficult to discern what Cailan was planning, at least based on the facts we do have. My hypothesis is that he was stuck between a rock and a hard place before the Blight even started.

On one side he loved Anora but on the other she was not willing/able to give him an heir which he needed to keep the Theirin bloodline intact, a fact which Eamon continued to whisper in his ear as being important.

He also seemed to consider marrying Celene while leaving Anora, perhaps thinking he could end the hostilities between the two nations while also gaining a wife he could have a child with.

Then the Blight came and things became more complicated. Celene starts speaking more openly of a marriage and in rides Duncan who reminds him of the tales of old. Of entire nations uniting to combat a single foe. He drinks the cup of glory that seem to come from the old stories and revels in it for it offers a way to ignore the whole Anora/Celene business. This causes Loghain to start plotting against him, as the two begin having heated arguments.

Then he meets Alistair at Ostagar, and the pieces fall into place. Loghain warns of the greater darkspawn forces that could defeat them, while Duncan continues to remind him that the Darkspawn must be stopped.

Again, stuck between a rock and a hard place. He finally sees a way out, while also providing Fereldan with a Theirin blood line. He sends Alistair to safety while marching to his own demise.

He is not a fool, a coward maybe. He sacrifices his life to escape a tense situation, and willing to also give up the lives of the Arl of Denerim and Loghain, had the latter not had the sense to pull out when he did.

Because of his unwillingness to act either way, to shut up Eamon or leave Anora, his actions starts a civil war, forces his father-in-law to commit crimes to try and protect Fereldan and leaves the weight of kingship to Alistair.

In the end, what you choose to make of him as a person is up to you. Either feel pity for him due to his situation, or anger for his selfishness.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 mars 2010 - 04:28 .

[errant_knight]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is difficult to discern what Cailan was planning, at least based on the facts we do have. My hypothesis is that he was stuck between a rock and a hard place before the Blight even started.

On one side he loved Anora but on the other she was not willing/able to give him an heir which he needed to keep the Theirin bloodline intact, a fact which Eamon continued to whisper in his ear as being important.

He also seemed to consider marrying Celene while leaving Anora, perhaps thinking he could end the hostilities between the two nations while also gaining a wife he could have a child with.

Then the Blight came and things became more complicated. Celene starts speaking more openly of a marriage and in rides Duncan who reminds him of the tales of old. Of entire nations uniting to combat a single foe. He drinks the cup of glory that seem to come from the old stories and revels in it for it offers a way to ignore the whole Anora/Celene business. This causes Loghain to start plotting against him, as the two begin having heated arguments.

Then he meets Alistair at Ostagar, and the pieces fall into place. Loghain warns of the greater darkspawn forces that could defeat them, while Duncan continues to remind him that the Darkspawn must be stopped.

Again, stuck between a rock and a hard place. He finally sees a way out, while also providing Fereldan with a Theirin blood line. He sends Alistair to safety while marching to his own demise.

He is not a fool, a coward maybe. He sacrifices his life to escape a tense situation, and willing to also give up the lives of the Arl of Denerim and Loghain, had the latter not had the sense to pull out when he did.

Because of his unwillingness to act either way, to shut up Eamon or leave Anora, his actions starts a civil war, forces his father-in-law to commit crimes to try and protect Fereldan and leaves the weight of kingship to Alistair.

In the end, what you choose to make of him as a person is up to you. Either feel pity for him due to his situation, or anger for his selfishness.

Where do you see evidence that Cailan was planning a marriage, or that Celene was speaking of such a thing openly? I can't think of anything indicating that.

[Costin_Razvan]

RtO letters. We have one from Eamon where he suggests leaving Anora, and two from Celene. One of which is crumpled then smoothed back again. Who do you think did that? Loghain who is completely surprised by what is written in it?

Talking of a permanent alliance = marriage.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 mars 2010 - 04:40 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

I think that's a misstatement by Alistair. Cailan specifies that the PC and Alistiar should go to the tower.

Since Alistair says battles plural, I am thinking this was not the first time this had happened.  There had been previous skirmishes with the darkspawn prior to the PC's arrival, and Alistair does recognize that being sent to the Tower is Cailan's idea ("just so you know, if the king asks me to put on a dress and dance the remigold...").  Although he might have considered that Duncan was in on the decision, too.

The PC can object that he/she can do it alone, in which case, Cailan insists that Alistair go too.

Right, Cailan is definitely insistent on that point.  Which is what seems curious [/alistar] about it all, and why we are even talking about the idea of Cailan making him his heir.

Good point. Riordan does make a point of that. And while it can be argued that warden neutrality is highly debatable, Duncan seems to be a warden commander who lived by that in a way that some haven't.

But again, if Duncan was acting on a specific promise he had made Maric, then I am sure he would keep it.  We can only speculate about that at this point, of course.  It could also be that Duncan recognized the advantages of having a Warden near the throne, however.  He was willing to risk a lot by conscripting Alistair.  Why risk Chantry wrath for one recruit, when he shows himself unwilling to risk Bryce Cousland's displeasure (until the poor man is at death's door, that is)?

Modifié par Addai67, 30 mars 2010 - 04:50 .

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think that's a misstatement by Alistair. Cailan specifies that the PC and Alistiar should go to the tower.

Since Alistair says battles plural, I am thinking this was not the first time this had happened.  There had been previous skirmishes with the darkspawn prior to the PC's arrival, and Alistair does recognize that being sent to the Tower is Cailan's idea ("just so you know, if the king asks me to put on a dress and dance the remigold...").  Although he might have considered that Duncan was in on the decision, too.

The PC can object that he/she can do it alone, in which case, Cailan insists that Alistair go too.

Right, Cailan is definitely insistent on that point.  Which is what seems curious [/alistar] about it all, and why we are even talking about the idea of Cailan making him his heir.

Good point. Riordan does make a point of that. And while it can be argued that warden neutrality is highly debatable, Duncan seems to be a warden commander who lived by that in a way that some haven't.

But again, if Duncan was acting on a specific promise he had made Maric, then I am sure he would keep it.  We can only speculate about that at this point, of course.  It could also be that Duncan recognized the advantages of having a Warden near the throne, however.  He was willing to risk a lot by conscripting Alistair.  Why risk Chantry wrath for one recruit, when he shows himself unwilling to risk Bryce Cousland's displeasure (until the poor man is at death's door, that is)?

Alistair is just another Templar, and not one who seems to be particularly valued. We have no idea if the Chantry knew about Alistair's parentage, but even if they did, a royal bastard isn't much practical use to them unless they're planing a rebellion, which seems unlikely. There might have been some potential cachet in having a member of the royal family in the Chantrey, but it wouldn't actually do anything for them--if they did know.

The Cousland, on the other hand, is the legitimate spare heir to the most powerful family next to the Therins. That's not someone you can conscript without repercussions.

[Maria13]

[/quote]
But again, if Duncan was acting on a specific promise he had made Maric, then I am sure he would keep it.  We can only speculate about that at this point, of course.  It could also be that Duncan recognized the advantages of having a Warden near the throne, however.  He was willing to risk a lot by conscripting Alistair.  Why risk Chantry wrath for one recruit, when he shows himself unwilling to risk Bryce Cousland's displeasure (until the poor man is at death's door, that is)?[/quote]

As there are advantages for Cailan in Alistair being a warden there are undoubtably advantages for Duncan in the same.  As a starting point, what better way to re-introduce the wardens into Ferelden than by having a member of the royal line within its ranks?  This not only establishes ties with the monarchy, it could encourage other influential Fereldans to join up or at least actively support them.  As we see, eventually this is what happens the wardens are launched in Ferelden from the top downwards, quickly obtaining titles, land and influence, all flowing from Alistair's membership.  It is very much a question between Cailan and Duncan of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours"  the tragedy is that from this point of view Alistair is everybody's plaything, everyone's pawn, that he  may in the end attain a degree of autonomy is much to his credit, the PC's and pure, blind luck.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair is just another Templar, and not one who seems to be particularly valued.

Yet the grand cleric put up a "grand" fight about giving him up.  It could have been merely the principle of the thing, of course, or not wanting templar secrets to get out, as Alistair says.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair is just another Templar, and not one who seems to be particularly valued.

Yet the grand cleric put up a "grand" fight about giving him up.  It could have been merely the principle of the thing, of course, or not wanting templar secrets to get out, as Alistair says.

But did the Grand Cleric expect for Duncan to see the best and brightest of the templars and not want to recruit one of them into his warrior organization? It seems like they were running the risk anyway. Or were they just afraid that Alistair would make a mockery of them, or be especially prone to blab templar secrets?

I always thought that Alistair's conscription was so very convenient. If he is the son of the serving girl in Redcliffe, either Duncan was directed to him (by Cailan, most likely) or he saw him and either conciously or sub-consciously thought of Maric and paid him more mind because of that. Otherwise, it's almost too pat.

All of this is assuming, of course, that  Alistair's mother is who the game tells us. If she's not, then Duncan very well could have simply taken matters into his own hands after seeing that Alistair was miserable and decided that giving the boy more freedom was worth the risks. Or it could be politically motivated.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 30 mars 2010 - 05:42 .

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair is just another Templar, and not one who seems to be particularly valued.

Yet the grand cleric put up a "grand" fight about giving him up.  It could have been merely the principle of the thing, of course, or not wanting templar secrets to get out, as Alistair says.

But did the Grand Cleric expect for Duncan to see the best and brightest of the templars and not want to recruit one of them into his warrior organization? It seems like they were running the risk anyway. Or were they just afraid that Alistair would make a mockery of them, or be especially prone to blab templar secrets?

I always thought that Alistair's conscription was so very convenient. If he is the son of the serving girl in Redcliffe, either Duncan was directed to him (by Cailan, most likely) or he saw him and either conciously or sub-consciously thought of Maric and paid him more mind because of that. Otherwise, it's almost too pat.

All of this is assuming, of course, that  Alistair's mother is who the game tells us. If she's not, then Duncan very well could have simply taken matters into his own hands after seeing that Alistair was miserable and decided that giving the boy more freedom was worth the risks. Or it could be politically motivated.

Yeah, we just don't have anything like enough information to draw any conclusions about Duncan or the Grand Cleric's motivations. Whatever else influenced the Grand Cleric, it must have irked her mightily that after seeing all the best Templars fight in a Tourney, Duncan chose Alistair, the least Templar-like Templar ever. Cailan's reasons for sending Alistair to the tower seem a little more clear, but the background to that decision is as murky as everything else.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

RtO letters. We have one from Eamon where he suggests leaving Anora, and two from Celene. One of which is crumpled then smoothed back again. Who do you think did that? Loghain who is completely surprised by what is written in it?

Talking of a permanent alliance = marriage.

No, permanent alliance doesn't automatically mean marriage. It might, it might not. Canada and the U.S. have a permanent Alliance, for example, and marriage has nothing to do with it. If a marriage was planned to strengthen relations, it's pretty unlikely that it would be between the rulers. That makes sucession way too messy and risks independence. If Alistair was legimate, and Cailan had another heir, I might buy that as a possibility, but the idea of the rulers of the two countries marrying seems far-fetched, indeed. Not if Cailan gave a damn about his father's legacy, and I think he did.

I suspect that Cailan crumpled the letter because he'd hoped to have the treaties in place before trying to convince Loghain to allow Orleisians to help fight the darkspawn. There's nothing to indicate a connection between Eamon's suggestion and the treaties other than that Cailan kept all his corrospondence in the same place. Proximity is thin rational to assume the connection, and there's no evidence to indicate that Cailan welcomed Eamon's suggestion any more than he had a year before.

Modifié par errant_knight, 30 mars 2010 - 06:41 .

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...
No, permanent alliance doesn't automatically mean marriage. It might, it might not. Canada and the U.S. have a permanent Alliance, for example, and marriage has nothing to do with it. If a marriage was planned to strengthen relations, it's pretty unlikely that it would be between the rulers.

While I agree with a lot of your reasoning, you have to admit that using two modern countries with elected presidents as comparison wasn't really an honest analogy. Marriage to cement alliances was a often the norm in Feudal Monarchies, but is a ludicrous idea in modern democracies.  

It does not follow that Cailan planned to marry Celine, it would indeed have been a total disaster and even he ought to realize it. All it does show is that Cailan had held negotiations with Orlais and kept them secret from both Loghain, Anora Eamon and everybody else. This can interpreted either that Cailan was at least a bit more politically savvy than those around him gave him credit for, that he had been duped by Orlais, or that he just wanted as huge an army as possible with him to fight the battle that would make him as famous as Maric. There is however still not conclusive evidence either way, I think.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 30 mars 2010 - 07:30 .

[Alikain]

errant_knight wrote...

Alikain wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

melkathi wrote...

I got a screenshot of the sentence, so noone needs to remember stuff
link:
http://img208.images...10020403511.jpg

Keeping Loghain at bay... I hadn't really considered what that might mean, especially in relation to Duncan. I assumed it referred to complaint about the idea of Orlesians crossing the border, and the Grey Wardens leading the battle, but...hmmm.... What did Loghain want from Duncan?

The way i see it, it seems both Duncan and Cailan knew about Loghain plans, (him been a power hunger general) but even the king couldn’t move against such a general. Cailan knew the only way out was his own death and doing so he put his brother on the throne .This is why Alistair was kept out big major battles .By making Alistair do all the less important stuff Loghain did not see the through motive behind Cailan actions, and that kept Loghain at bay.

Hmmm.... Could you give some examples? I'm not seeing evidence of that in game.

Well for starters when Cailan said, if that's the case, perphaps we should wait for the oslesian forces to join us, after all.
Loghain went on the defence saying "i must repeat my protects to your fool notion that we need the oslesian to defend ourselves! which he was lying about it because he hate the oslesian.

this made Cailan to reply "it's not a fool notion our argument  with the oslesain are thing of the past... and you will remember who is king.

at his point you could tell that Loghain was really up to something. which he reply by saying "  how fortunate maric did not live to see his son ready to hand over to those who enslaved us for a century!

for Cailan to  prove his point he ask "Duncan are your men ready for battle? They are your majesty.
Loghain responed to this was " Your fascination with glory and legends will be your undoing, cailan! we must attend to reality. mean you can't even see what am about to do to you.

Who did cailan send to light the beacon because he knew too well what loghain will do. "then we should send our best. Sed Alistair and the new grey warden to make sure it's done.) not to make sure it done be to protect Alistair from loghain schemes.

Loghain "you rely on this grey warden too much. is that truly wise?

Cailan "Enough of your conspiracy theories." dont worry but you will not win as long as the Theirin lives.

[Sarah1281]

Do you think he's also trying to get Loghain killed in the battle? Because if not just don't see how Cailan thought he couldn't do anything against Loghain when he was raised to be King but the Templar cast-off GW could.

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
No, permanent alliance doesn't automatically mean marriage. It might, it might not. Canada and the U.S. have a permanent Alliance, for example, and marriage has nothing to do with it. If a marriage was planned to strengthen relations, it's pretty unlikely that it would be between the rulers.

While I agree with a lot of your reasoning, you have to admit that using two modern countries with elected presidents as comparison wasn't really an honest analogy. Marriage to cement alliances was a often the norm in Feudal Monarchies, but is a ludicrous idea in modern democracies.  

It does not follow that Cailan planned to marry Celine, it would indeed have been a total disaster and even he ought to realize it. All it does show is that Cailan had held negotiations with Orlais and kept them secret from both Loghain, Anora Eamon and everybody else. This can interpreted either that Cailan was at least a bit more politically savvy than those around him gave him credit for, that he had been duped by Orlais, or that he just wanted as huge an army as possible with him to fight the battle that would make him as famous as Maric. There is however still not conclusive evidence either way, I think.

Heh, caught me. Yeah, that was a tad spurious. I do think that while we're working with very slim amounts of evidence, what we have points to him being more to him being politically savvy rather than the other options. There's nothing to point to a plot by Orlais, or that his motives in trying to forge peace with Orlais were the result of shallow glory-seeking.

Alikain wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alikain wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

melkathi wrote...

I got a screenshot of the sentence, so noone needs to remember stuff
link:
http://img208.images...10020403511.jpg

Keeping Loghain at bay... I hadn't really considered what that might mean, especially in relation to Duncan. I assumed it referred to complaint about the idea of Orlesians crossing the border, and the Grey Wardens leading the battle, but...hmmm.... What did Loghain want from Duncan?

The way i see it, it seems both Duncan and Cailan knew about Loghain plans, (him been a power hunger general) but even the king couldn’t move against such a general. Cailan knew the only way out was his own death and doing so he put his brother on the throne .This is why Alistair was kept out big major battles .By making Alistair do all the less important stuff Loghain did not see the through motive behind Cailan actions, and that kept Loghain at bay.

Hmmm.... Could you give some examples? I'm not seeing evidence of that in game.

Well for starters when Cailan said, if that's the case, perphaps we should wait for the oslesian forces to join us, after all.
Loghain went on the defence saying "i must repeat my protects to your fool notion that we need the oslesian to defend ourselves! which he was lying about it because he hate the oslesian.

this made Cailan to reply "it's not a fool notion our argument  with the oslesain are thing of the past... and you will remember who is king.

at his point you could tell that Loghain was really up to something. which he reply by saying "  how fortunate maric did not live to see his son ready to hand over to those who enslaved us for a century!

for Cailan to  prove his point he ask "Duncan are your men ready for battle? They are your majesty.
Loghain responed to this was " Your fascination with glory and legends will be your undoing, cailan! we must attend to reality. mean you can't even see what am about to do to you.

Who did cailan send to light the beacon because he knew too well what loghain will do. "then we should send our best. Sed Alistair and the new grey warden to make sure it's done.) not to make sure it done be to protect Alistair from loghain schemes.

Loghain "you rely on this grey warden too much. is that truly wise?

Cailan "Enough of your conspiracy theories." dont worry but you will not win as long as the Theirin lives.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing how this is evidence that Cailan and/or Duncan knew of Loghain's plans. And let's not forget that Loghain made his final decision to withdraw while on the battlefield. We don't really know what plans if any he may have had before that, although Eamon's poisoning tends to point to some kind of plot. That might merely have been an attempt to keep Eamon from influencing Cailan, however.
You're making quite a few assumptions here about both Cailan and Loghain's intentions. All this really demonstrates it that Loghain hates Orlais, distrusts the wardens, and has a tendency to forget his place. While Cailan may very well have been trying to keep his only heir alive given the risks of the battle ahead, I don't see any reason that distrust of Loghain motivated his choice.

Modifié par errant_knight, 30 mars 2010 - 08:27 .

[CalJones]

DG inferred that the poisoning was to stop Eamon influencing or backing up Cailan - presumably this was something to do with Cailan trying to unite the nations of Thedas against the Blight (whereas Loghain does not trust the Orlesians and wants Fereldan to stand on its own). If they had planned a Landsmeet where this topic would be raised and voted on, then it makes sense that Loghain would want to knock Eamon out for a while so he couldn't participate.



I don't believe Loghain was actively trying to kill Cailan - were he so inclined, he could have sent an assassin to do that without wiping out most of the army. More to the point, Cailan's death puts Anora's place on the throne in jeopardy so it's not exactly logical behaviour either. So no, I don't think he planned it or particularly wanted Cailan dead at that point. He did, after all, advise Cailan not to fight on the front lines (as did Eamon), which Cailan then ignored.



If you're familiar with the Stolen Throne, Loghain leaves the battle of West Hill to rescue Maric, and Maric tells him it's a dumb idea to risk everything for one man, even if he happens to be king. Loghain reluctantly agrees. This is basically the decision he has to make during Ostagar, and decides not to risk what remains of his army for what he views as a fool of a king.



We know the beacon was lit late - what we don't know is how badly overwhelmed the army is by darkspawn at that point and whether Cailan could have been saved had Loghain charged. All this has been left deliberately vague and open to player interpretation.



RtO complicates matters somewhat but the plots referred to may just refer to Loghain's wanting to keep the Orlesian wardens and chevaliers away, whilst Duncan and Cailan are trying to draft them in.



As for the letters, they are very vague, so interpret them as you will. There's certainly no hard proof that Cailan was courting the empress, even if the tone of the second letter was very familiar. (Loghain interprets it as such because of his hatred of the Orlesians, no doubt). There is also no proof that Anora is barren - she may just not want to start a family yet, or perhaps Cailan is firing blanks himself. Either way, it's all just frosting on a rather half-baked cake.

[Addai]

It occurs to me that Cailan is usually portrayed as a glory hog, but the fact that he was willing to accept help in countering the Blight whereas Loghain wanted Ferelden to stand on its own tips that on its head. Loghain's reasons weren't for glory necessarily, but considering this changes the picture of Cailan a bit.



As for West Hill, that has to be taken together with Rowan leaving her battle post to rescue Loghain later on. I can't help but think of *that* when I consider how monstrous it is that Loghain abandoned Rowan's son. Loghain was always the cold, ruthless strategist, but you think that by the end of his life he would have learned to mitigate it by a lifetime of serving with Maric and Rowan.

[Costin_Razvan]

Either way, it's all just frosting on a rather half-baked cake.

That is why I presented my post as hypothesis rather then fact.

Loghain interprets it as such because of his hatred of the Orlesians, no doubt

Not necessarily so. Even Wynne agrees reluctantly to Loghain's thinking that Cailan might have been trying to marry Celene.

I do not think Loghain hates Orlais. I think he just can't bring himself to trust them in ANY WAY and truth be told I don't blame him. Considering the assassination attempts on Maric's life, the whole Calling thing with the Orlesian Wardens and First Enchanter, and the fact Orlais would 100% march on Fereldan if they could defeat them. ( and before anyone mentions that the empress could have marched when the civil war was going and win, then let me point out that an invasion from Orlais right then would have united Fereldan like no other )

It occurs to me that Cailan is usually portrayed as a glory hog, but
the fact that he was willing to accept help in countering the Blight
whereas Loghain wanted Ferelden to stand on its own tips that on its
head

Loghain had sound reasons to not trust Orlais. No country in this world or Thedas would ever send aid to another nation without getting something out of it. Consider the Dwarves and Elves for example. They don't aid you because they care about the Blight, they aid you because you helped them, a great deal in fact.

Since Fereldan has not aided Orlais, but in fact has proven to be a menace towards their plans it IS logical to assume they want something out of aiding Fereldan, and that is not stopping the Blight.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 mars 2010 - 09:52 .

[SymbolicGamer]

errant_knight wrote...
This creates a big question. Why didn't Cailan want to wait?

Who are you to doubt your King?

What happened at Ostagar was a fluke.

Cailan didn't screw Cailan.

Loghain screwed Cailan.

[Sarah1281]

Loghain interprets it as such because of his hatred of the Orlesians, no doubt

Not necessarily so. Even Wynne agrees reluctantly to Loghain's thinking that Cailan might have been trying to marry Celene.

I didn't think it came off as her BELIEVING that so much as disagreeing that it would have been an unmitigaed disaster. In fact, she even states that she doesn't believe it:

Loghain: The cheating bastard!

Wynne: Watch your mouth, Loghain Mac Tir, unless you have forgotten the company you now keep!

Loghain: It's not my company I worry about, madam, but my former son-in-law's! Do you see the familiar tone with which the empress writes him, as if my daughter were not already his wife?

Wynne: Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you.

Loghain: Are you blind, old woman? The plot is plain as day within this letter! Love or no, Cailan was going to cast my daughter aside and wed himself to that ****, Celene. In a single vow, Orlais would claim all that they could never win by war! And what would Ferelden gain? Our fool of a king could strut about and call himself an emperor.

Wynne: And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?

Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.

And Wynne didn't come off well in that conversation anyway. Suggesting they sacrifice their sovereignty so they didn't have to fight anymore? Worked out well for the elves. Not to mention if she's really as old as she's always going on about she should remember just how terrible the occupation actually was.

[Xandurpein]

SymbolicGamer wrote...

[Who are you to doubt your King?

Uhm... sorry, but the whole "Who are you to doubt your King" and variants on that theme is just nonsense. Of course it is easy to come up with any number of situations in which no sane man would have followed the King's orders or faulted someone who didn't. Had Loghain been a traitor if he refused if Cailan had ordered him to hand over the women in the army as Broodmothers to placate the Darkspawn? Wouldn't Cailan be the traitor if he issued such an order?  Just because Cailan is King doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants and everybody who refuse him are automatically branded as traitors. I'm not excusing what Loghain did, merely pointing out that the argument that refusing a King is by definition traitors and should be punished, is simplistic and wrong. A King can also betray his people.