522 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain had sound reasons to not trust Orlais. No country in this world or Thedas would ever send aid to another nation without getting something out of it.

A Blight threatens everyone, and certainly a neighboring country.

[errant_knight]

SymbolicGamer wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
This creates a big question. Why didn't Cailan want to wait?

Who are you to doubt your King?

What happened at Ostagar was a fluke.

Cailan didn't screw Cailan.

Loghain screwed Cailan.

I think you missed what we're doing with this thread. We're looking at initial impressions of Cailan and analysing them in light of later information provided by characters, codices, and DLC content, so you should explain your position more fully and use examples to back up your position where possible.

[Alcanazar]

What people seem to be missing is that they had been winning the battles. We don't know where Cailan was during those battles, but it's a good guess he wasn't sitting in his tent.

Waiting for Orlais would mean pulling up stakes from a defensable position & going somewhere else where they would have to hope the darkspawn might go. They're at a natural chokepoint, so it makes sense to stay put.  Waiting for Eamon's forces is the same as waiting for Orlais--they can only wait for as long as the darkspawn let them wait.

The sense of time in the game is peculiar--we have no idea how long they've been at Ostagar, for example. Several days, probably weeks. Long enough for Alistair to have been sent on several relatively safe missions, long enough for letters to get from Val Royeaux to Ostagar, long enough for a lot of things.

I don't think Cailan and Duncan expected Loghain to screw them over--if they had there would have been an exit strategy in place. That there wasn't indicates that they expected that Loghain would fulfill his sworn duty & bring his very large & well-equipped army onto the field when called.

One more thing: Cailan's gear is amazing. I find it hard to believe that bring tossed by an ogre would be enough to kill him.   

[Thalorin1919]

Alcanazar wrote...

One more thing: Cailan's gear is amazing. I find it hard to believe that bring tossed by an ogre would be enough to kill him.   

I think Cailan was already dead when he crushed Cailan's body...

[errant_knight]

Alcanazar wrote...

What people seem to be missing is that they had been winning the battles. We don't know where Cailan was during those battles, but it's a good guess he wasn't sitting in his tent.

Waiting for Orlais would mean pulling up stakes from a defensable position & going somewhere else where they would have to hope the darkspawn might go. They're at a natural chokepoint, so it makes sense to stay put.  Waiting for Eamon's forces is the same as waiting for Orlais--they can only wait for as long as the darkspawn let them wait.

The sense of time in the game is peculiar--we have no idea how long they've been at Ostagar, for example. Several days, probably weeks. Long enough for Alistair to have been sent on several relatively safe missions, long enough for letters to get from Val Royeaux to Ostagar, long enough for a lot of things.

I don't think Cailan and Duncan expected Loghain to screw them over--if they had there would have been an exit strategy in place. That there wasn't indicates that they expected that Loghain would fulfill his sworn duty & bring his very large & well-equipped army onto the field when called.

One more thing: Cailan's gear is amazing. I find it hard to believe that bring tossed by an ogre would be enough to kill him.   

 Excellent points! There was enough time for a Cousland PC to walk there from Highever, or a Dwarven PC from Orzammar. Definitely weeks.

What ever issues Cailan or Duncan may have had with Loghain, I think it was simply inconceivable that the hero of Fereldan would keep his troops out of the battle, especially after agreeing to the plan.

The Ogre didn't so much toss Cailan, as crush him then toss his body aside, sadly. Very disturbing. His armor really shouldn't have been usable when it was found but, hey, it's a video game, so some liberties in the name of loot can be expected.

Modifié par errant_knight, 31 mars 2010 - 12:31 .

[Alcanazar]

errant_knight wrote...

The Ogre didn't so much toss Cailan, as crush him then toss his body aside, sadly. Very disturbing. His armor really shouldn't have been usable when it was found but, hey, it's a video game, so some liberties in the name of loot can be expected.

Disturbing is the thought that he was alive while they ripped him out of his armor, dragged him over to the bridge, crucified him, and that it took being shot at close range to kill him.

That's the impression I got from RtO, anyway.

Modifié par Alcanazar, 31 mars 2010 - 12:47 .

[errant_knight]

Alcanazar wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

The Ogre didn't so much toss Cailan, as crush him then toss his body aside, sadly. Very disturbing. His armor really shouldn't have been usable when it was found but, hey, it's a video game, so some liberties in the name of loot can be expected.

Disturbing is the thought that he was alive while they ripped him out of his armor, dragged him over to the bridge, crucified him, and that it took being shot at close range to kill him.

That's the impression I got from RtO, anyway.

What makes you think that? To me it seemed clear that he was dead when Duncan reached him. If he had been alive, Duncan would have killed him when he realized they'd been betrayed to prevent that from happening.

Modifié par errant_knight, 31 mars 2010 - 01:16 .

[Baskervore]

errant_knight wrote...

Alcanazar wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

The Ogre didn't so much toss Cailan, as crush him then toss his body aside, sadly. Very disturbing. His armor really shouldn't have been usable when it was found but, hey, it's a video game, so some liberties in the name of loot can be expected.

Disturbing is the thought that he was alive while they ripped him out of his armor, dragged him over to the bridge, crucified him, and that it took being shot at close range to kill him.

That's the impression I got from RtO, anyway.

What makes you think that? To me it seemed clear that he was dead when Duncan reached him. If he had been alive, Duncan would have killed him when he realized they'd been betrayed to prevent that from happening.

Yeah he was definitely dead first.

[Costin_Razvan]

A Blight threatens everyone, and certainly a neighboring country.

Are you blind young woman? Or you simply are choosing to ignore the facts.

Perhaps the timeline of Thedas might help you: http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Timeline

And some of the finer points:

1:5 Divine: Zazikel awakens and the Second Blight begins ...............Throughout this entire time, the elves of the Dales remain neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard is nearly destroyed by the darkspawn in 1:25 Divine as the elven army watched from nearby, the people of Orlais bristled against the elves.

3:25 Towers: The armies of Orlais and the Tevinter Imperium meet in Hunter Fell and join the Grey Wardens in the last battle of the Third Blight. Toth is destroyed, and the darkspawn are slaughtered in one of the bloodiest battles in history. The people of the Free Marches will not soon forget the image of the burning darkspawn. Their goodwill is quickly crushed by the victorious armies as they decide to occupy the territories liberated from the darkspawn. Orlais takes Nevarra, while Tevinter takes Hunter Fell. These holdings don’t last long, with Nevarra achieving independence in 3:65 Towers and Hunter Fell breaking away from Tevinter in 3:49 Towers.

5:12 Exalted: The Exalted Marches come to an end with the awakening of Andoral and the rise of the Fourth Blight. Darkspawn appear in great numbers in the northeast and northwest of the continent. The country of Antiva is overrun and its entire ruling family slaughtered. The darkspawn then pour into the Free Marches and Rivain. The Blight rises in the Anderfels as well, and the capital city of Hossberg comes under siege. Orlais and the Tevinter Imperium are attacked by fewer numbers and are able to drive the darkspawn back into the depths of the Deep Roads. Despite their success, Tevinter refuses to send any aid to the Free Marches or the Anderfels, while Orlais sends only a token force.

So don't give me the whole Blight is a threat to everyone crap and that Orlais would aid Fereldan for no gain of their own. As long as their own country is not under direct siege they will not take action.

It is clear as day Celene had a bloody ulterior motive for sending FOUR Legions of Chevaliers into Fereldan ( just to clarify, the battle of River Dane involved two legions and that sealed the fate of the war. Four Legions could be considered a huge army ), and it wasn't for the benefit of the Fereldans.

The only reason she didn't act, is as I said. Fereldan would unite like no other under Loghain had she done so. And you can bet Loghain would have won.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 mars 2010 - 02:35 .

[SurelyForth]

Empress Celene seems to like not living in a Blight ravaged hellhole, however, and she has to realize that, should Ferelden fall, Orlais would be the next country targeted by the darkspawn. There's a very good possibility that she was forward thinking enough to figure that it would be better for her country, in the long run, to head off the threat as quickly as possible. I'm not saying that she didn't have some ulterior motives, but I also don't think it's ridiculous to assume a ruler might actually care enough to take some preventative measures in a situation where preventative measures could be the difference between suffering no damage and having your empire reduced to a featureless wasteland.

[Costin_Razvan]

but I also don't think it's ridiculous to assume a ruler might actually care enough to take some preventative measures in a situation where preventative measures could be the difference between suffering no damage and having your empire reduced to a featureless wasteland.

I think it is ridiculous to assume any leader would send troops in a hostile country to fight a threat only that country is currently under while your own borders are safe and secure with large amounts of troops stationed there.

To clarify again how big a sized force she was able to amass quickly. 12 Divisions of Chevaliers would almost be an army as big as your own at the end of Origins. Perhaps even bigger.

You want preemptive action? Station large ammounts of troops at your borders as she did. If the Archdemon had turned the horde against the Orlesian border you can bet the border would not have fallen.

My point is this: I do not doubt that in some small measure she was ALSO trying to fight the Blight, but the MAIN REASON she had sent an army to Fereldan wasn't to stop the darkspawn.

Might I also remind you that at the point she sends the troops no one really thinks it is a Blight? Not Cailan, not Loghain, not the Cousland nobles, not Howe.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 mars 2010 - 02:59 .

[Addai]

If the Orlesians intended to invade Ferelden, what was stopping them? How many border guards do you picture there being to turn away 12 divisions if they really intended to come in?

Modifié par Addai67, 31 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Orlais is right next to Ferelden. Why wouldn't they want to help with the Blight? If Ferelden would of fallen more then likely Orlais would of been next so it would make sense for them to send troops



But I also don't believe she would of sent troops just for that. That could of been just a deploy just so they could get their foot back into Ferelden. I wonder if Orlais would of been allowed in if they would of just left after the Blight was over.



I'd like to actually see more of a story dealing with Orlais. Not as an Orlaisian but maybe somehow continuing on with our Origins pc since their already familiar with Orlais. It would really be interesting to know more about what the Oraisian's had planned if Cailan wouldn't of perished.

[Costin_Razvan]

Could you please think of a proper response for more then two seconds? The rebel army, which wasn't organized at all, beat the Orlesians time and time again. What are the chances of Orlais defeating the full might of Fereldan?

If Orlais had attacked you can bet the nobles would have fallen in line behind Loghain. Besides, as Loghain mentions it, the border was heavily guarded.

What is smarter? To waste your troops fighting Fereldan or simply wait for the Darkspawn to kill them and then you move in, kill the darkspawn and conquer the country easily?

If Ferelden would of fallen more then likely Orlais would of been next so it would make sense for them to send troops

 

The Anderfels is also right next to Orlais, you didn't see them send anything more then a token force when the fourth Blight was around in full force. Besides I already covered this, but very few people believed it was a true Blight, even at the end people are shocked to discovered the Archdemon is leading the Horde

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 mars 2010 - 03:20 .

[Alcanazar]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

but I also don't think it's ridiculous to assume a ruler might actually care enough to take some preventative measures in a situation where preventative measures could be the difference between suffering no damage and having your empire reduced to a featureless wasteland.

I think it is ridiculous to assume any leader would send troops in a hostile country to fight a threat only that country is currently under while your own borders are safe and secure with large amounts of troops stationed there.

To clarify again how big a sized force she was able to amass quickly. 12 Divisions of Chevaliers would almost be an army as big as your own at the end of Origins. Perhaps even bigger.

You want preemptive action? Station large ammounts of troops at your borders as she did. If the Archdemon had turned the horde against the Orlesian border you can bet the border would not have fallen.

My point is this: I do not doubt that in some small measure she was ALSO trying to fight the Blight, but the MAIN REASON she had sent an army to Fereldan wasn't to stop the darkspawn.

Might I also remind you that at the point she sends the troops no one really thinks it is a Blight? Not Cailan, not Loghain, not the Cousland nobles, not Howe.

The very first letter from Celene that you find in Ostagar explicitly tells Cailan that they are indeed facing a Blight.
She says:

"To his Majesty, King Cailan of Ferelden:

My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight. This thing
threatens us both, and we must work together to fight it, lest it devour
all. Our two nations have not had a happy history, but that is all it
is -- history. It is the future that is at stake now. Let us put aside
our father's disagreements so that we may secure a future for both our
countries.


My Chevaliers stand ready and will accompany the Grey Wardens of
Orlais to Ferelden. At your word the might of Orlais will march to
reinforce the Ferelden forces.


Sincerely,
Empress Celene I
"

Cailan knows it's a Blight. Loghain & the others do not believe him.

[Stoomkal]

errant_knight wrote...

Huojin, you might want to read the earlier pages of the thread. There's been quite a bit of discussion about the points you mentioned, some of which rebutt them well, in my opinion.

Actually, this is probably a good time to ask that newcomers to the discussion take a moment to acquaint themselves with previous discussion, otherwise the thread will start going in circles as we rehash things that have already been discussed without bringing up new points. If we all know where we've been, we can zero in on elements that haven't been discussed enough, or new ideas.

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not really say there being any *real* relationship between the portrayal of these characters in Origins, and how they were portrayed in RTO.

In the original, Cailan was represented as a naive fool. In RTO they threw in a "plot twist". There were also doubts cast about Anora, and a silly reference to Cailan knowing he would lose but doing it anyway...

This is all silly. They were *different* writers. The main team had well given up on Origins and were hard at work on Awakening. I do not see any similarity to the two portrayals.

It is like an episode written by other people who were adding extra detail - that may not have made much sense.

Cailan in Origins and Cailan in RTO are different elements. Think of the "Architect" in The Calling and the "Architect 2.0" that was portrayed in Awakening.

It is apples and oranges... with bugs.

EDIT: spelling...

Now, now.... We're here for the discussion, so there is no silly, as long as people back up their points with examples from the game. It's just that kind of thread.

TV shows are written by many writers, but all episodes are part of 'canon'. A game is much the same. It's up to us to find ways to make it all fit together up to the point that we receive new information that needs to be taken into account.

...

Not really. Most "red herrings" and plot holes exist because of multiple writing teams - Origins has its own chronological errors. Even Daivd Gaider has said some things are just plain wrong... such as the Codex entry for Duncan's history.

Personally, I don't think the "added" information in Ostagar really makes much sense. In Origins, Cailan was *supposed* to play the role of the naive King...

Simply coming along with some silly new details and saying "he knew he couldn't win" or putting doutbts about whether he had an affair with Celene is stuff that will never get mentioned again... because the main writers most likely do not know it was really added.

Nothing is proven from the RTO codex entries - they are left hanging there. It is a great way of adding fetail that never has to get pursued... and won't.

I dislike it because it contradicts already established characterisation. It does nothing, really, to help us understand Cailan or Anora, especially as it sits uneasily with what we know.

And "canon" is a difficult word to use with Origins, in any respect at all...

Personally, I believe that the whole episode was simply intimating a closer link with Orlais and building Loghain's nationalist agenda up.... anything else is abit ephemeral.

[Stoomkal]

Oh...

And we all know the only point of Ostagar is to get Alistair *his* rightful armor... Kings must look their part.

And it suits him better... 

[errant_knight]

A reminder: this is a civil discussion. We don't call each other blind or imply a lack of thought, We don't call each other's ideas ridiculous. We rebut politely. Your input is very welcome, but only if you can provide it in a way that doesn't insult the other posters. When this ceases to be a civil discussion, the thread will be shut down.

Modifié par errant_knight, 31 mars 2010 - 03:44 .

[Stoomkal]

Uhh...



I wasn't??

[Sarah1281]

Cailan knows it's a Blight. Loghain & the others do not believe him.

Celene may know it's a Blight but when you first meet the King upon arriving at Ostagar and note that things seem to be going well, Cailan specifically says he's not even sure that it is a true Blight because the victories he's winning are too easy for that and there's been no sign of the Archdemon.

[errant_knight]

Stoomkal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Huojin, you might want to read the earlier pages of the thread. There's been quite a bit of discussion about the points you mentioned, some of which rebutt them well, in my opinion.

Actually, this is probably a good time to ask that newcomers to the discussion take a moment to acquaint themselves with previous discussion, otherwise the thread will start going in circles as we rehash things that have already been discussed without bringing up new points. If we all know where we've been, we can zero in on elements that haven't been discussed enough, or new ideas.

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not really say there being any *real* relationship between the portrayal of these characters in Origins, and how they were portrayed in RTO.

In the original, Cailan was represented as a naive fool. In RTO they threw in a "plot twist". There were also doubts cast about Anora, and a silly reference to Cailan knowing he would lose but doing it anyway...

This is all silly. They were *different* writers. The main team had well given up on Origins and were hard at work on Awakening. I do not see any similarity to the two portrayals.

It is like an episode written by other people who were adding extra detail - that may not have made much sense.

Cailan in Origins and Cailan in RTO are different elements. Think of the "Architect" in The Calling and the "Architect 2.0" that was portrayed in Awakening.

It is apples and oranges... with bugs.

EDIT: spelling...

Now, now.... We're here for the discussion, so there is no silly, as long as people back up their points with examples from the game. It's just that kind of thread.

TV shows are written by many writers, but all episodes are part of 'canon'. A game is much the same. It's up to us to find ways to make it all fit together up to the point that we receive new information that needs to be taken into account.

...

Not really. Most "red herrings" and plot holes exist because of multiple writing teams - Origins has its own chronological errors. Even Daivd Gaider has said some things are just plain wrong... such as the Codex entry for Duncan's history.

Personally, I don't think the "added" information in Ostagar really makes much sense. In Origins, Cailan was *supposed* to play the role of the naive King...

Simply coming along with some silly new details and saying "he knew he couldn't win" or putting doutbts about whether he had an affair with Celene is stuff that will never get mentioned again... because the main writers most likely do not know it was really added.

Nothing is proven from the RTO codex entries - they are left hanging there. It is a great way of adding fetail that never has to get pursued... and won't.

I dislike it because it contradicts already established characterisation. It does nothing, really, to help us understand Cailan or Anora, especially as it sits uneasily with what we know.

And "canon" is a difficult word to use with Origins, in any respect at all...

Personally, I believe that the whole episode was simply intimating a closer link with Orlais and building Loghain's nationalist agenda up.... anything else is abit ephemeral.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm of the opinion that we can't pick and choose what aspects of the story we want to accept, we have to take it as a whole and analyse it in that light. Much as I often with that weren't so, especially in television.

[errant_knight]

Stoomkal wrote...

Uhh...

I wasn't??

I wasn't talking to you, Stoomkal.

[errant_knight]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Cailan knows it's a Blight. Loghain & the others do not believe him.

Celene may know it's a Blight but when you first meet the King upon arriving at Ostagar and note that things seem to be going well, Cailan specifically says he's not even sure that it is a true Blight because the victories he's winning are too easy for that and there's been no sign of the Archdemon.

He may have accepted that it was a blight right away, but have started to doubt it when faced with a seeming lack of resistance.

[Stoomkal]

errant_knight wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

stuff...

Stoomkal wrote...

It is apples and oranges... with bugs.

EDIT: spelling...

Now, now.... We're here for the discussion, so there is no silly, as long as people back up their points with examples from the game. It's just that kind of thread.

TV shows are written by many writers, but all episodes are part of 'canon'. A game is much the same. It's up to us to find ways to make it all fit together up to the point that we receive new information that needs to be taken into account.

...

Not really. Most "red herrings" and plot holes exist because of multiple writing teams - Origins has its own chronological errors. Even Daivd Gaider has said some things are just plain wrong... such as the Codex entry for Duncan's history.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm of the opinion that we can't pick and choose what aspects of the story we want to accept, we have to take it as a whole and analyse it in that light. Much as I often with that weren't so, especially in television.

...

Fair point.

I think Cailan is alot more likeable in RTO... and that is good. I think it becomes quite meaningful with Alistair. I did it post-coronation, on the way to Redcliffe, so it felt very reflective over Alistair's new role as King.

I actually like the intimation that Cailan and Celene had some sort of "close" relationship - I now believe Maric's bastards, or grand-bastards, traveled as far as Orlais!!!

And I do not really think that there is enough information to think that Anora is barren, as so many claim.

As to the battle, I can see Cailan fighting a battle he thought would be suicidal, putting too much trust in the Grey Wardens, and Loghain.

It *may* actually be used for further plot developments... maybe Celene has her eye on Ferelden still, and maybe Anora knew about an affair... it is enough for many countries to go to war.

Throw in a Disciple "advisor" and I would play it... if my Warden comes back 

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Could you please think of a proper response for more then two seconds? The rebel army, which wasn't organized at all, beat the Orlesians time and time again. What are the chances of Orlais defeating the full might of Fereldan?

I take it this is directed at me.  Lose the snark.

To your point:  Indeed what are the chances?  So what is the harm in letting them help you fight the Blight?

If Orlais had attacked you can bet the nobles would have fallen in line behind Loghain. Besides, as Loghain mentions it, the border was heavily guarded.

You said that 12 divisions, which is what was waiting at the border with the Grey Wardens, were more than all of the PC Warden's armies combined.  Which is it?

What is smarter? To waste your troops fighting Fereldan or simply wait for the Darkspawn to kill them and then you move in, kill the darkspawn and conquer the country easily?

So why were they willing to send their troops in to fight the darkspawn?  Tell Cailan no, he can't have any troops, and then bide your time.

That is not, however, what happened.

Don't try to make logic out of Loghain's paranoia.  He is a man who has been warped by decades of bitterness that he can't let go.  None of the other Fereldan nobles share his paranoia, and they too (some of them) survived the ocupation and rebellion.