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[Stoomkal]

If Orlais let Ferelden fall to the Darkspawn as a political act... then they would be betraying humanity to monsters... I doubt they would have done that ever. Ever.



Besides, Orlais had conquered Ferelden easily eighty years ago... they are one the most militarised nations in Thedas, and the capital of the Chantry.



They are about as primary in importance as the Tevinter Imperium is... except with a boat load of Templars.

[Alcanazar]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Cailan knows it's a Blight. Loghain & the others do not believe him.

Celene may know it's a Blight but when you first meet the King upon arriving at Ostagar and note that things seem to be going well, Cailan specifically says he's not even sure that it is a true Blight because the victories he's winning are too easy for that and there's been no sign of the Archdemon.

The possibility that they aren't seeing the full force of the darkspawn may also be behind this. However, Cailan specifically asks Duncan if he thinks the Archdemon will appear, something he wouldn't ask if he thought it wasn't a Blight. 

[CalJones]

He's not sure it's a Blight. He actually says "I'm not even sure this is a proper Blight."

No doubt Celene's wardens have been having lurid dreams about the archdemon and have told her to expect a Blight, and Duncan has also done the same (this comes up in conversation with Alistair when you have a nightmare at camp) but Cailan can only take the wardens' word for it and he's rather unceratin about it.

[Xandurpein]

Alcanazar wrote...
The very first letter from Celene that you find in Ostagar explicitly tells Cailan that they are indeed facing a Blight.
She says:

"To his Majesty, King Cailan of Ferelden:

My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight. This thing
threatens us both, and we must work together to fight it, lest it devour
all. Our two nations have not had a happy history, but that is all it
is -- history. It is the future that is at stake now. Let us put aside
our father's disagreements so that we may secure a future for both our
countries.


My Chevaliers stand ready and will accompany the Grey Wardens of
Orlais to Ferelden. At your word the might of Orlais will march to
reinforce the Ferelden forces.


Sincerely,
Empress Celene I
"

Cailan knows it's a Blight. Loghain & the others do not believe him.

One point to remember in all this is that we only have snippets of fact and what little facts we have can easily be fit into many different scenarios. The letter you refer too doesn't in any way prove that Cailan knows it's a Blight. All it proves is that Empress Celene wants Cailan to believe that she thinks it's a Blight. This may be due to the fact that she truly belive it's a Blight or because she thinks it's convenient to make Cailan believe it's a Blight to make him accept an Orlesian entering Fereldan. We have no evidence whatsoever to prove which it is, nor is the letter proof that Cailan actually belived the Empress, although it seems reasonable. 

One thing about the Empress dealings that seems at least a bit murky to me is the fact that for all we know Anora never knew about the empress dealings with Cailan. The Empress is aware that Anora is Loghain's daughter ofc, but according to the codex Celene expressed admiration for Anora as Queen. Anora was known by most at Court to be the one that run most of the country's affairs. Even if Celene was negotiating with Cailan in good faith, keeping Anora out of the loop completely, must mean something.

Compared to the facts we know about the history of earlier Blights, Celene's letter to Cailan, if it is sincere, represents an unusually enlightened view of cooperation. The norm seems to have been that the countries of Thedas would spend as much time to strengthen their own rule over neighbours as to fight Drakspawn, even during blights. We know Orlais is willing to send a large army to help defeat the Darkspawn, we really know way to little of Celene to say if she was ever going to bring them back once the blight is defeated.

Neither does Cailan's dealings with Orlais, whether enlightened or foolish, shed any light on why he insists on fighting the final battle at Ostagar. His subordinates, both Duncan and LOghain, express doubts about the wisdom to fight the final battle but Cailan insists. I have a very hard time accepting some complicated scheme by which Cailan has engineered his own death to make way for Alistair to become King or whatever else may have been suggested. I think that Cailan wanted to fight the big battle with the Grey Wardens so he could be equal to Maric. He wanted it so badly that he didn't listen to advice. I have no proof that this is so, but it is to me still the easiest explanation of what happened.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 31 mars 2010 - 05:40 .

[Alcanazar]

Xandurpein wrote...

Alcanazar wrote...
The very first letter from Celene that you find in Ostagar explicitly tells Cailan that they are indeed facing a Blight.
She says:

"To his Majesty, King Cailan of Ferelden:

My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight. This thing
threatens us both, and we must work together to fight it, lest it devour
all. Our two nations have not had a happy history, but that is all it
is -- history. It is the future that is at stake now. Let us put aside
our father's disagreements so that we may secure a future for both our
countries.


My Chevaliers stand ready and will accompany the Grey Wardens of
Orlais to Ferelden. At your word the might of Orlais will march to
reinforce the Ferelden forces.


Sincerely,
Empress Celene I
"

Cailan knows it's a Blight. Loghain & the others do not believe him.

One point to remember in all this is that we only have snippets of fact and what little facts we have can easily be fit into many different scenarios. The letter you refer too doesn't in any way prove that Cailan knows it's a Blight. All it proves is that Empress Celene wants Cailan to believe that she thinks it's a Blight. This may be due to the fact that she truly belive it's a Blight or because she thinks it's convenient to make Cailan believe it's a Blight to make him accept an Orlesian entering Fereldan. We have no evidence whatsoever to prove which it is, nor is the letter proof that Cailan actually belived the Empress, although it seems reasonable. 

Look at the first line of the letter.

"My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight."

That's rather odd wording. If she's initiating the conversation, why would assurances be needed? If it were a simple matter of informing Cailan, it'd be more like "My Warden-Commander informs me that we face a Blight."  This implies that Cailan asked her to check on something he suspects--something that he does not trust Anora to tell him.   Why  doesn't he trust her to tell him the truth about a Blight?

One thing about the Empress dealings that seems at least a bit murky to me is the fact that for all we know Anora never knew about the empress dealings with Cailan. The Empress is aware that Anora is Loghain's daughter ofc, but according to the codex Celene expressed admiration for Anora as Queen. Anora was known by most at Court to be the one that run most of the country's affairs. Even if Celene was negotiating with Cailan in good faith, keeping Anora out of the loop completely, must mean something.

It means Cailan doesn't trust her.  The CE origin tells us that much--she keeps him out of the loop so as not to upset Loghain's money-making scheme.  Anora & Loghain tell him one thing, Duncan another; so Cailan asks Celene what's up.  And she assures him that it's a Blight.

Neither does Cailan's dealings with Orlais, whether enlightened or foolish, shed any light on why he insists on fighting the final battle at Ostagar. His subordinates, both Duncan and LOghain, express doubts about the wisdom to fight the final battle but Cailan insists.

Well, for one thing, he wasn't planning on Loghain running off. 

[Xandurpein]

Alcanazar wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

One point to remember in all this is that we only have snippets of fact and what little facts we have can easily be fit into many different scenarios. The letter you refer too doesn't in any way prove that Cailan knows it's a Blight. All it proves is that Empress Celene wants Cailan to believe that she thinks it's a Blight. This may be due to the fact that she truly belive it's a Blight or because she thinks it's convenient to make Cailan believe it's a Blight to make him accept an Orlesian entering Fereldan. We have no evidence whatsoever to prove which it is, nor is the letter proof that Cailan actually belived the Empress, although it seems reasonable. 

Look at the first line of the letter.

"My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight."

That's rather odd wording. If she's initiating the conversation, why would assurances be needed? If it were a simple matter of informing Cailan, it'd be more like "My Warden-Commander informs me that we face a Blight."  This implies that Cailan asked her to check on something he suspects--something that he does not trust Anora to tell him.   Why  doesn't he trust her to tell him the truth about a Blight?

I'm sorry, but I don't know if you are mixing up things or what you are trying to say. Are you implying that Anora might KNOW about the Blight, but keep the information away from Cailan? That would be preposterous. If nothing else it needs to answer the question how on earth would Anora know such a thing, when no one else knows it? The first to know if there is indeed a Blight is the older experienced Grey Wardens who can sense the Archdemon. If anyone at Ostagar could know it's a Blight it's Duncan, and Duncan says he is not sure.

If anything the Empress letter could be seen as suspicious just by the fact that she claims to "know" it's a Blight, when Grey Wardens in Fereldan still are not certain. And the fact that the letter possibly suggests that Cailan is the first to mentions that it might be a Blight, only proves that he might think it is a blight, not that he knows.

If indeed the wording of the letter suggests that Cailan initiated the conversation between the Empress, then I would suggest that the following scenario is as likely as anything else suggested here: Cailan hits upon the idea of uniting Fereldan and Orlesian troops in one huge army, led by himself fighting the glorious battle that would finally make him as famous as Maric. The Empress then sees an opportunity an pretends to agree with him and prepare to send the Chevaliers that she has no intention of ever taking back home into Fereldan. Even if the Empress believes it might be a real Blight, she could still be angling for the possibility of reoccupying Fereldan in the Aftermath.

Alcanazar wrote...

One thing about the Empress dealings that seems at least a bit murky to me is the fact that for all we know Anora never knew about the empress dealings with Cailan. The Empress is aware that Anora is Loghain's daughter ofc, but according to the codex Celene expressed admiration for Anora as Queen. Anora was known by most at Court to be the one that run most of the country's affairs. Even if Celene was negotiating with Cailan in good faith, keeping Anora out of the loop completely, must mean something.

It means Cailan doesn't trust her.  The CE origin tells us that much--she keeps him out of the loop so as not to upset Loghain's money-making scheme.  Anora & Loghain tell him one thing, Duncan another; so Cailan asks Celene what's up.  And she assures him that it's a Blight.

If by the 'money-making scheme' you mean the fact that Loghain is selling elves from the alienage to Tevinter, that is something that occurs after Cailan's death as far as I know. I have played CE orgin myself once and I saw no mention of selling slaves in it until late in the game. Loghain starts selling elves as slaves to finance the civil war after Cailan's death. And since Loghain by that times runs the country, even if he officially doeas it in Anora's name, there is no proof that Anora even knew about it. There is in fact no proof of Anora sayinig anything at all to Cailan about the Darkspawn or the possibility of a Blight.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 31 mars 2010 - 06:52 .

[CalJones]

Xandurpein wrote...
One point to remember in all this is that we only have snippets of fact and what little facts we have can easily be fit into many different scenarios. The letter you refer too doesn't in any way prove that Cailan knows it's a Blight. All it proves is that Empress Celene wants Cailan to believe that she thinks it's a Blight. This may be due to the fact that she truly belive it's a Blight or because she thinks it's convenient to make Cailan believe it's a Blight to make him accept an Orlesian entering Fereldan. We have no evidence whatsoever to prove which it is, nor is the letter proof that Cailan actually belived the Empress, although it seems reasonable. 

One thing about the Empress dealings that seems at least a bit murky to me is the fact that for all we know Anora never knew about the empress dealings with Cailan. The Empress is aware that Anora is Loghain's daughter ofc, but according to the codex Celene expressed admiration for Anora as Queen. Anora was known by most at Court to be the one that run most of the country's affairs. Even if Celene was negotiating with Cailan in good faith, keeping Anora out of the loop completely, must mean something.

Compared to the facts we know about the history of earlier Blights, Celene's letter to Cailan, if it is sincere, represents an unusually enlightened view of cooperation. The norm seems to have been that the countries of Thedas would spend as much time to strengthen their own rule over neighbours as to fight Drakspawn, even during blights. We know Orlais is willing to send a large army to help defeat the Darkspawn, we really know way to little of Celene to say if she was ever going to bring them back once the blight is defeated.

Neither does Cailan's dealings with Orlais, whether enlightened or foolish, shed any light on why he insists on fighting the final battle at Ostagar. His subordinates, both Duncan and LOghain, express doubts about the wisdom to fight the final battle but Cailan insists. I have a very hard time accepting some complicated scheme by which Cailan has engineered his own death to make way for Alistair to become King or whatever else may have been suggested. I think that Cailan wanted to fight the big battle with the Grey Wardens so he could be equal to Maric. He wanted it so badly that he didn't listen to advice. I have no proof that this is so, but it is to me still the easiest explanation of what happened.

This is pretty much how I see it. Cailan was tired of being in his father's shadow and eager to make his mark on the world. However, he failed to listen to his advisors (Loghain and Duncan) and let his bravado got the better of him. Too bad for him.

The only thing is there are inconsistencies within the game. Duncan says he's unsure about the Blight at Ostagar, but later, when you speak to Alistair about your archdemon dream he says that's how Duncan knew it was a Blight. You can ask why Duncan didn't tell anyone, and Alistair says he tried to.
The Bioware writers aren't perfect - I don't think we can make definitive judgements on some of the in-game facts nd conversations, only our own interpretations.

[Alcanazar]

[quote]Xandurpein wrote...

I'm sorry, but I don't know if you are mixing up things or what you are trying to say. Are you implying that Anora might KNOW about the Blight, but keep the information away from Cailan? That would be preposterous. If nothing else it needs to answer the question how on earth would Anora know such a thing, when no one else knows it? The first to know if there is indeed a Blight is the older experienced Grey Wardens who can sense the Archdemon. If anyone at Ostagar could know it's a Blight it's Duncan, and Duncan says he is not sure. [/quote]

No, I'm implying that Cailan doesn't trust her to give him an answer.


[quote]
If anything the Empress letter could be seen as suspicious just by the fact that she claims to "know" it's a Blight, when Grey Wardens in Fereldan still are not certain. And the fact that the letter possibly suggests that Cailan is the first to mentions that it might be a Blight, only proves that he might think it is a blight, not that he knows. [/quote]

Correct. He suspects it is a Blight, his Warden-Commander isn't sure, and he asks for conformation from Celene. Why he trusts her over Anora is an interesting question.

[quote]Alcanazar wrote...
[quote]One thing about the Empress dealings that seems at least a bit murky to me is the fact that for all we know Anora never knew about the empress dealings with Cailan. The Empress is aware that Anora is Loghain's daughter ofc, but according to the codex Celene expressed admiration for Anora as Queen. Anora was known by most at Court to be the one that run most of the country's affairs. Even if Celene was negotiating with Cailan in good faith, keeping Anora out of the loop completely, must mean something. [/quote]
It means Cailan doesn't trust her.  The CE origin tells us that much--she keeps him out of the loop so as not to upset Loghain's money-making scheme.  Anora & Loghain tell him one thing, Duncan another; so Cailan asks Celene what's up.  And she assures him that it's a Blight.[/quote]

If by the 'money-making scheme' you mean the fact that Loghain is selling elves from the alienage to Tevinter, that is something that occurs after Cailan's death as far as I know. I have played CE orgin myself once and I saw no mention of selling slaves in it until late in the game. Loghain starts selling elves as slaves to finance the civil war after Cailan's death. And since Loghain by that times runs the country, even if he officially doeas it in Anora's name, there is no proof that Anora even knew about it. There is in fact no proof of Anora sayinig anything at all to Cailan about the Darkspawn or the possibility of a Blight.
[/quote]

So, we're expected to believe that Anora runs the show, is Daddy's little girl, and yet somehow is innocent? No.  Loghain has been selling slaves for quite some time, to judge by the sheer size of his army. CE will discuss the overall collapse in the alienage with Cailan, who is not happy. Since we know that Anora is hiding the conditions in the alienage from Cailan, it isn't much of a leap to suspect she's hiding all sorts of things from him. 

[Costin_Razvan]

To your point: Indeed what are the chances? So what is the harm in letting them help you fight the Blight?

You do not let hostile armies into your nation for crying out loud. Orlais would never have won in a normal invasion, as in having to capture Redcliff/West Hill to push into the Bannorn, but things would have been much different had they been allowed to get past the natural defense points.

So why were they willing to send their troops in to fight the darkspawn? Tell Cailan no, he can't have any troops, and then bide your time.

That is not, however, what happened.

Celene had a brilliant plan. Fool Cailan into accepting aid from a massive Orlesian force, and then once the Darkspawn are dead ( and since it would have taken time for the chevaliers to arrive we can assume the Fereldans would have taken heavier losses ), strike right through the Heart of Fereldan. Meanwhile another force moves in and attacks Redcliff and West Hill, not necessarily to capture the two fortresses but to pin down the troops there and open a supply route for the main army fighting in the Bannorn.

Much more effective then trying to force a breakthrough through the choke points. Even on the map the routes into Fereldan are shown to be very narrow indeed.

You said that 12 divisions, which is what was waiting at the border with the Grey Wardens, were more than all of the PC Warden's armies combined. Which is it?

To quote Narnia: Numbers do not win a battle. There is something called force multiplier, which accounts for terrain, skill, fortifications, and equipment. A good example of this force multiplier is Thermopylae.

7.000 Greeks against 200.000 Persians. ( If we are to take modern figures ) Outnumbered thirty to one the Greeks still held the line. Hell they might not have even lost had they not been outflanked and in the end the Greeks lost 1.000 troops against 20.000 Persians.

While the Fereldans didn't have the vastly superior equipment and training compared to the Chevaliers ( as the Greeks did against the Persians ) they did have bottlenecks as good as Thermopylae, with Castles to boot. Not forgetting that Loghain had troops even farther East, at a pass in the Frostback Mountains.

A historian once said: A single man with a rifle can stop a battalion if the pass is narrow enough. You can be sure the passes in Fereldan are narrow enough that only a few troops are needed to hold them.

Don't try to make logic out of Loghain's paranoia. He is a man who has been warped by decades of bitterness that he can't let go. None of the other Fereldan nobles share his paranoia, and they too (some of them) survived the ocupation and rebellion.

Loghain had a point. How can he trust the Wardens when they ask to bring an Orlesian army with them. You really think any government would allow an army from a country which had subjugated theirs for almost a century to just march in?

Besides. Would you be so eager to allow an army of Chevaliers, who can do whatever they want without consequences? Liselle in Denerim offers some insight into what Chevaliers are allowed to do.

If Orlais let Ferelden fall to the Darkspawn as a political act... then they would be betraying humanity to monsters... I doubt they would have done that ever. Ever.

And yet they were willing to let the Anderfels fall during the 4th Blight, Grey Wardens HQ and all that.

So, we're expected to believe that Anora runs the show, is Daddy's little girl, and yet somehow is innocent?

You never talked with her after saving her now have you?  She seems to genuiely have carred about Cailan and even remarks ( if you try and persuade her to marry Alistair ) that he is so like Cailan it is disturbing.

She also didin't know about the slave trade in the Alienage. Hell I do not think even Loghain orchestrated it. He merely took advantage of the situation when he found out.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 mars 2010 - 11:39 .

[Xandurpein]

Alcanazar wrote...

Correct. He suspects it is a Blight, his Warden-Commander isn't sure, and he asks for conformation from Celene. Why he trusts her over Anora is an interesting question.

And that argument is totally irrelevant. There is no proof that Cailan trusts Celene or bases his assumption that it is indeed a Blight on her say so. There no reason whatsoever for Anora to know anymore than anyone else, so why would he ever consider asking her even if he trusted her in the first place. If Cailan trusts Celene's words because it's her, then he is just a stupid fool. The only reason Celene's words make sense is that she refers to her Warden Commander. IF Cailan believes it is a Blight, then it is either because he simply wants to believe it, or because he believes the Orlesian Warden Commander, as told by Celene, more than Duncan and Loghain. Anora isn't even part of the picture.

Alcanazar wrote...

So, we're expected to believe that Anora runs the show, is Daddy's little girl, and yet somehow is innocent? No.  Loghain has been selling slaves for quite some time, to judge by the sheer size of his army. CE will discuss the overall collapse in the alienage with Cailan, who is not happy. Since we know that Anora is hiding the conditions in the alienage from Cailan, it isn't much of a leap to suspect she's hiding all sorts of things from him.

There is absolutly no proof whatsoever that Loghain was selling slaves before the civil war. There is nothing in the CE orgins that suggests that Loghain was abducting elves to sell in slavery before the war. The only thing we ever hear of the slavery issue is later in the game when the player gets to Denerim and the player hear of the plague and how it is used to hide the abduction of elves. The argument that the size of Loghain's army proves he is selling slaves is nonsense. The second biggest feudal army after Loghain is Redcliff. Is Arl Eamon also neck into some equally horrible crime? Loghain is Teyrn of Gwaren and a capable military administrator, so of course he has a sizeable feudal army. The fact is that armies cost a lot more in war than in peace to upkeep and the war itself disrupts comerce and production so his income is less. That is why he is forced to sell slaves to pay for his war.

There is no proof that Anora hid anything from Cailan either. There is in fact no proof that either Cailan or Anora even gave the situation in the Alienage a thought before Cailan meets the CE player at Ostagar. The sad truth is that throughout history people have passivly accepted all sorts of injustice towards different minorities as something that is just the way things are. This includes the treatment of women, african americans, jews, sexual minorities, or you name it. It takes a brave and vocal person to dare challenge people's preconcieved ideas and force them to face the reality. The reality that just because things are the way they are, doesn't mean it is right or that it can't be changed.

I think part of the power of the CE is that you can do your part as the Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King of Fereldan together with Shianni. I doubt Cailan had ever even given the real situation of the elves a thought before Ostagar. It is confronted with an angry and charismatic CE player that he is forced to think out of the box and consider things in a different light.The power of a man like Martin Luther King is that he made people understand how unjust the situation actually was. He didn't uncover some hidden truth.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 31 mars 2010 - 12:04 .

[errant_knight]

CalJones wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
One point to remember in all this is that we only have snippets of fact and what little facts we have can easily be fit into many different scenarios. The letter you refer too doesn't in any way prove that Cailan knows it's a Blight. All it proves is that Empress Celene wants Cailan to believe that she thinks it's a Blight. This may be due to the fact that she truly belive it's a Blight or because she thinks it's convenient to make Cailan believe it's a Blight to make him accept an Orlesian entering Fereldan. We have no evidence whatsoever to prove which it is, nor is the letter proof that Cailan actually belived the Empress, although it seems reasonable. 

One thing about the Empress dealings that seems at least a bit murky to me is the fact that for all we know Anora never knew about the empress dealings with Cailan. The Empress is aware that Anora is Loghain's daughter ofc, but according to the codex Celene expressed admiration for Anora as Queen. Anora was known by most at Court to be the one that run most of the country's affairs. Even if Celene was negotiating with Cailan in good faith, keeping Anora out of the loop completely, must mean something.

Compared to the facts we know about the history of earlier Blights, Celene's letter to Cailan, if it is sincere, represents an unusually enlightened view of cooperation. The norm seems to have been that the countries of Thedas would spend as much time to strengthen their own rule over neighbours as to fight Drakspawn, even during blights. We know Orlais is willing to send a large army to help defeat the Darkspawn, we really know way to little of Celene to say if she was ever going to bring them back once the blight is defeated.

Neither does Cailan's dealings with Orlais, whether enlightened or foolish, shed any light on why he insists on fighting the final battle at Ostagar. His subordinates, both Duncan and LOghain, express doubts about the wisdom to fight the final battle but Cailan insists. I have a very hard time accepting some complicated scheme by which Cailan has engineered his own death to make way for Alistair to become King or whatever else may have been suggested. I think that Cailan wanted to fight the big battle with the Grey Wardens so he could be equal to Maric. He wanted it so badly that he didn't listen to advice. I have no proof that this is so, but it is to me still the easiest explanation of what happened.

This is pretty much how I see it. Cailan was tired of being in his father's shadow and eager to make his mark on the world. However, he failed to listen to his advisors (Loghain and Duncan) and let his bravado got the better of him. Too bad for him.

The only thing is there are inconsistencies within the game. Duncan says he's unsure about the Blight at Ostagar, but later, when you speak to Alistair about your archdemon dream he says that's how Duncan knew it was a Blight. You can ask why Duncan didn't tell anyone, and Alistair says he tried to.
The Bioware writers aren't perfect - I don't think we can make definitive judgements on some of the in-game facts nd conversations, only our own interpretations.

I thinks different characters can see things differently. Whether they're wrong or right depends on how you roleplay the game--to an extent. They probably don't want us to be able to know some of these things either. Not for certain. That leaves more room for plot twists later on.

Modifié par errant_knight, 31 mars 2010 - 03:26 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You do not let hostile armies into your nation for crying out loud.

They're not hostile!  Relations have gradually been normalized even under Maric.

Orlais would never have won in a normal invasion, as in having to capture Redcliff/West Hill to push into the Bannorn, but things would have been much different had they been allowed to get past the natural defense points.

Now you're contradicting yourself.  During their occupation, they certainly were past the natural defensive points, and they still got kicked out, as you pointed out.

Celene had a brilliant plan. Fool Cailan into accepting aid from a massive Orlesian force, and then once the Darkspawn are dead ( and since it would have taken time for the chevaliers to arrive we can assume the Fereldans would have taken heavier losses ), strike right through the Heart of Fereldan. Meanwhile another force moves in and attacks Redcliff and West Hill, not necessarily to capture the two fortresses but to pin down the troops there and open a supply route for the main army fighting in the Bannorn.

So says Loghain's paranoia and your speculation, nothing more.  Orlais was sending troops at the beginning of a Blight, not at its tail end.

Besides. Would you be so eager to allow an army of Chevaliers, who can do whatever they want without consequences? Liselle in Denerim offers some insight into what Chevaliers are allowed to do.

They would not be in Orlais.

I'm sure no one in Ferelden would be thrilled at the sight of Orlesian chevaliers, except in the case of an even greater threat- which happens to be exactly what they are facing, at least after Ostagar.

Let's bear in mind that Cailan wasn't rushing to call in Orlesian troops, either, but he was at least wise enough to put them on reserve and establish the diplomatic ties that would allow aid to be called upon if it was needed.

Modifié par Addai67, 31 mars 2010 - 03:37 .

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

Alcanazar wrote...

Correct. He suspects it is a Blight, his Warden-Commander isn't sure, and he asks for conformation from Celene. Why he trusts her over Anora is an interesting question.

And that argument is totally irrelevant. There is no proof that Cailan trusts Celene or bases his assumption that it is indeed a Blight on her say so. There no reason whatsoever for Anora to know anymore than anyone else, so why would he ever consider asking her even if he trusted her in the first place. If Cailan trusts Celene's words because it's her, then he is just a stupid fool. The only reason Celene's words make sense is that she refers to her Warden Commander. IF Cailan believes it is a Blight, then it is either because he simply wants to believe it, or because he believes the Orlesian Warden Commander, as told by Celene, more than Duncan and Loghain. Anora isn't even part of the picture.

Alcanazar wrote...

So, we're expected to believe that Anora runs the show, is Daddy's little girl, and yet somehow is innocent? No.  Loghain has been selling slaves for quite some time, to judge by the sheer size of his army. CE will discuss the overall collapse in the alienage with Cailan, who is not happy. Since we know that Anora is hiding the conditions in the alienage from Cailan, it isn't much of a leap to suspect she's hiding all sorts of things from him.

There is absolutly no proof whatsoever that Loghain was selling slaves before the civil war. There is nothing in the CE orgins that suggests that Loghain was abducting elves to sell in slavery before the war. The only thing we ever hear of the slavery issue is later in the game when the player gets to Denerim and the player hear of the plague and how it is used to hide the abduction of elves. The argument that the size of Loghain's army proves he is selling slaves is nonsense. The second biggest feudal army after Loghain is Redcliff. Is Arl Eamon also neck into some equally horrible crime? Loghain is Teyrn of Gwaren and a capable military administrator, so of course he has a sizeable feudal army. The fact is that armies cost a lot more in war than in peace to upkeep and the war itself disrupts comerce and production so his income is less. That is why he is forced to sell slaves to pay for his war.

There is no proof that Anora hid anything from Cailan either. There is in fact no proof that either Cailan or Anora even gave the situation in the Alienage a thought before Cailan meets the CE player at Ostagar. The sad truth is that throughout history people have passivly accepted all sorts of injustice towards different minorities as something that is just the way things are. This includes the treatment of women, african americans, jews, sexual minorities, or you name it. It takes a brave and vocal person to dare challenge people's preconcieved ideas and force them to face the reality. The reality that just because things are the way they are, doesn't mean it is right or that it can't be changed.

I think part of the power of the CE is that you can do your part as the Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King of Fereldan together with Shianni. I doubt Cailan had ever even given the real situation of the elves a thought before Ostagar. It is confronted with an angry and charismatic CE player that he is forced to think out of the box and consider things in a different light.The power of a man like Martin Luther King is that he made people understand how unjust the situation actually was. He didn't uncover some hidden truth.

Ser Cautherin indicated that the selling of slaves was a measure to finance the civil war, so we actually have evidence that it did not occur before that, but there is no indication anywhere in the game that Eamon has committed any crimes at all. There's not even a hint of that.

Appropos of no particular post, I feel the need to remind-yet again-that it's unncessesary to characterize other people's ideas negatively in order to rebut them. Just say you disagree and list your evidence.

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

Appropos of no particular post, I feel the need to remind-yet again-that it's unncessesary to characterize other people's ideas negatively in order to rebut them. Just say you disagree and list your evidence.

In the spirit of the above written I do aplogize if I lost my temper a bit somewhere down the line.

[Costin_Razvan]

They're not hostile!  Relations have gradually been normalized even under Maric.

Right, cause a century of subjugation is just going to be forgotten by either side in a partly 30 years? Dream on.

Now you're contradicting yourself.  During their occupation, they
certainly were past the natural defensive points, and they still got
kicked out, as you pointed out.

 

You mean the rebelion they barely won?, and lost almost every major engagement save River Dane and the first battle where Loghain saved Maric's  army, even so the fact they retreated then.

Loghain's tactical sense played a huge role in keeping the rebelion alive, but luck and incompetence on the Orlesian part also played a huge role. The ruler from Orlais in Fereldan was simply put: An idiot. His only competent general had limited power in what he could do and once that general was dead. Well things changed heavily.

So says Loghain's paranoia and your speculation, nothing more.

 

My speculation based on facts rather then some stupid, childish belief that Celene was trying to help Fereldan just to help out and strike preemtivly at the Blight. Check the timeline again to see what other rulers have done in cases similar to the Fifth Blight. They either conquered the country they aided or simply didn't send help.

Orlais was sending troops at the beginning of a Blight, not at its tail end.

Exactly. The fact the empress is sending a massive force when no one, not even Duncan himself if you ask him, believes it is a Blight, should damn well tell you something.

By the time you arrive at Ostagar the Orlesians are already on their way. Again it should mean something when they have barely fought 3 mere skirmishes with the Darkspawn and not a true battle.

They would not be in Orlais.

Right, cause those that do rape women are just going to magically change into shining rainbows.

[Addai]

Stupid, childish belief versus your cool grasp of facts... right. This is where I decline to discuss anything further with you, Costin_Razvan.

[roundcrow]

You know, Costin_Razvan, I agree with a lot of your points but not the way you're making them. Please be a bit more civil.

[Costin_Razvan]

Roundcrow: It is simply my way of doing arguments. I fully expect people to not like me for that, but I sincerely don't give a damn what people think of me I am a bit like Loghain in that regard.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 mars 2010 - 07:45 .

[Thalorin1919]

I dont see how Celene sending in her army is a sign of her going to conquer Ferelden.



Her and Cailan have already been talking, and are even familiar with eachother. There would be no gain for Orlais if they were to try a sneaky move like that. Not only would it united Ferelden against Orlais, by the time THAT war is done, the Blight would be free to ravage the land.



I dont think Celene is stupid, and she isnt trying to conquer anything. Hell if the next-door country asked me for help against a BLIGHT, I would definitely send my army over there to help them so that it would not reach Orlais.



Plus no Orlesians were at Ostagar. So they havent heard on if people are speculating that its not just a blight but maybe a darkspawn raid. The Orlesian Warden-Commander told Celene that they were sure it was a Blight, and Cailan told Celene that Duncan told him it was most likely a blight...



Yes, it is hard to forget years of being ruled over by another country. But alot of people that are in the army, the nobles, and the commoners of Ferelden were just children or not even born yet during the Orlesian occupating. Sure they are suspicious of them, and the older people such as Loghain that lived the time dont want anything to do with them.

[Huojin]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

I dont think Celene is stupid, and she isnt trying to conquer anything. Hell if the next-door country asked me for help against a BLIGHT, I would definitely send my army over there to help them so that it would not reach Orlais.

I wouldn't.

I'd SAY I would, but I wouldn't.

Might just leave them on the border though... you know, so it LOOKED like they were coming...

That way, my army is fully prepared to enter the fray when the Darkspawn AND Ferelden have both been weakened.  Once the "large horde" (since nobody bar Duncan thought it was actually a Blight) was dealt with, I'd take advantage of the weak Ferelden army and take back what I wanted.

Thalorin1919 wrote...
Yes, it is hard to forget years of being ruled over by another
country. But alot of people that are in the army, the nobles, and the
commoners of Ferelden were just children or not even born yet during
the Orlesian occupating. .

No. It was only 30 years ago. I've seen plenty of people in Ferelden well over 30. Including Bann Teagan. And Arl Wulff. And Arl Eamon.  And Teyrn Cousland. And and and...

Have we all forgotten what happened in **** Germany? Uh, no.  Hopefully we can all make the distinction between ****s and Germans now, but there was a time when even GERMANS were regarded with hate and suspicion, in some places here as recently as 15 years ago, and some people still hold hate in their hearts.

Really, you think a century of torture, rape, beatings, theft etc. is all going to be miraculously forgotten by the people of Ferelden? Even if they're children/teens, I can't imagine their parents have forgotten or neglected to tell them what happened.

I really doubt they'd have been much welcomed by *anyone* unless things were very dire (which they apparently weren't, according to everyone bar Duncan at Ostagar). Despite advice and fears from everyone around him, Cailan didn't want to wait for reinforcements - even from Redcliffe. Why was he so eager to push the Orlesian issue on Loghain? Probably just to annoy him.

Modifié par Huojin, 31 mars 2010 - 08:18 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I wouldn't.

I'd SAY I would, but I wouldn't.

Might just leave them on the border though... you know, so it LOOKED like they were coming... /images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

You are an evil, evil woman.

Marry me!

Seriously though, I would do the exact same thing.

Why was he so eager to push the Orlesian issue on Loghain? Probably just to annoy him.

Or he was trying to win the argument. For all the good it did for him.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 mars 2010 - 09:04 .

[Huojin]

lol that's because it's the sensible thing to do when your Empire has been humiliated and pushed out of a smelly wet-dog country like Ferelden by a bunch of rebels XD

Why was he so eager to push the Orlesian issue on Loghain? Probably just to annoy him.

Or he was trying to win the argument. For all the good it did for him.

hah, yeah that is a distinct possibility!  Way to go, Cailan. Ignore everyone and lose the battle and your life, but win a stupid argument with Loghain XD

Modifié par Huojin, 31 mars 2010 - 09:11 .

[errant_knight]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Roundcrow: It is simply my way of doing arguments. I fully expect people to not like me for that, but I sincerely don't give a damn what people think of me I am a bit like Loghain in that regard.

When I started this thread, I set out particular parameters for the tone of discussion. So far you are the only one who has refused to honor that when asked. I think it might be best if you started your own discussion rather than continuing with mine since you don't seem to be interested maintaining the civility that has been enjoyed by those in this thread. This is not open for debate.

[Sarah1281]

I dont think Celene is stupid, and she isnt trying to conquer anything. Hell if the next-door country asked me for help against a BLIGHT, I would definitely send my army over there to help them so that it would not reach Orlais.

I could see her doing that. That doesn't mean that when the Blight is over they'll just up and leave, though. Orlais is an Empire while Ferelden is a country. The Orlesian army is sure to be much larger than the Ferelden one so even if the fisrt wave of soldiers sent are as badly decimated as the Ferleden army by the time the Blight is over, Ferelden would still be easy pickings and Celen would still have reinforcements to send to conquer the country if she so chose (and remember: just because you're not going to actively try to retake a once-conquered country doesn't mean you'll squander the opportunity if it falls into your lap).

[Xandurpein]

What makes me seriously question Cailan's motives is that his actions don't add up wether he believes it is a real Blight or not.

If he doesn't belive the Darkspawn horde is a real Blight, then there is no real reason to risk inviting the Orlesian troops. If Fereldan risks annihilation by a real Blight sure, but otherwise no.

If on the other hand Cailan really believes it is a full scale Blight, then his decision to give battle at Ostagar despite all the evidence that suggests that the number of Drakspwn are rapidly rising when he has a treaty with Orlais in his pocket makes no sense. Why risk a big battle with only a portion of the force available to him.

Either way it seems to me that his judgement must be at least partially clouded by his own bravado. Cailan wants the battle. He only mention the Orlesian troops when Loghain wants to wait for reinforcements from Redcliff. He drops the issue as soon as Loghain accedes to fight the battle at once.

On a side note. The cut scene depicting the battle at Ostagar could be interpreted that the tactical leadership in Cailan's army was very inferior. Cailan's forces are protected behind stakes and various field defences, but still they leave their defences and counter charge the Darkspawn, which negates a lot of the defensive value of their position. It could be be interpreted as Cailan was tactically inept and just wanted to charge the enemy in a search for glory. I am perhaps more inclined to attribute the scene to a director who don't know all that much about warfare and just wanted it to look cool, but maybe the alternative is at least worth considering.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 31 mars 2010 - 10:23 .