522 réponses à ce sujet

[Janni-in-VA]

I must back errant_knight in her request for civility. It's one of the reasons I enjoyed and participated in this thread. Calling someone's ideas "stupid" and "childish" has no place in a civil discussion. Pick up your toys and go elsewhere.

[A Puzzled Mind]

On a side note. The cut scene depicting the battle at Ostagar could be interpreted that the tactical leadership in Cailan's army was very inferior. Cailan's forces are protected behind stakes and various field defences, but still they leave their defences and counter charge the Darkspawn, which negates a lot of the defensive value of their position. It could be be interpreted as Cailan was tactically inept and just wanted to charge the enemy in a search for glory. I am perhaps more inclined to attribute the scene to a director who don't know all that much about warfare and just wanted it to look cool, but maybe the alternative is at least worth considering.

If the Fereldens were only taught proper battle formation. Looking at the cutscene, if only they were smart enough to maneuver into a wedge formation, they could have slaughtered the darkspawn easily regardless of numbers disparity.

[Costin_Razvan]

I am perhaps more inclined to attribute the scene to a director who don't know all that much about warfare and just wanted it to look cool, but maybe the alternative is at least worth considering.

Most people don't have a knowledge of how medieval warfare worked. I doubt the Cinematic Director of Dragon Age knows, and even if he does, his job is to make an epic battle scene not a historical movie, which is what he did exactly.

I do suppose it is within reason Cailan had the tactical abilities of an Ogre. Duncan and Alistair both mention they should look to Loghain to win the battle, not Cailan.

If the Fereldens were only taught proper battle formation. Looking at
the cutscene, if only they were smart enough to maneuver into a wedge
formation, they could have slaughtered the darkspawn easily regardless
of numbers disparity.

Or perhaps forget the whole of charging right into the horde that outnumbers you greatly and simply form a shield wall. The Ogre can potentialy blow that plan to hell, but you have archers for a reason.

P.S. I could care less if people have a problem with me, and if you want me off this thread, well good luck with that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 avril 2010 - 12:38 .

[errant_knight]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
P.S. I could care less if people have a problem with me, and if you want me off this thread, well good luck with that.

If you are willing to be civil, you are welcome here. If you continue to drag down the debate, I will request that the thread be closed rather than see a very good thread ruined. I guess it's up to you to decide whether you'd rather end a discussion that others are enjoying or use manners.

Is that really so much to ask?

Modifié par errant_knight, 01 avril 2010 - 12:53 .

[PatT2]

Well, I really wanted to reply to the conversation as it was back at the beginning.



The part where Arl Eamon recommends that Cailan consider putting away Anora. That would be a direct threat to Loghain,no? Because if Anora is gone, so is Loghain's closeness to the throne. He would have no ability to even try for it after that. Loghain would need to stop Cailan from doing that, and would consider Eamon a huge threat (which explains why he would poison him).



Plans within plans.

[Stoomkal]

Personally, I marry Alistair to Anora.



My character cannot benefit from the royal storyline, and I always believe Alistair has rightful claim. I am also told repeatedly that Anora is a good ruler. I like to think they balance each other out...



Plus, the whole joining of the Theiren and Mac Tir bloodlines seems like a great idea... can you imagine a guy who is half Alistair and half Loghain? Or a girl who is half Anora and Alistair?



Also... Anora seems to take a liking to Alistair after thinking the idea is bad initially - she says his honesty reminds her of Cailan, and that is a good thing.



Personally, I can see alot of possibilities involving Anora, Alistair and Celene in the future, perhaps a return to troubled relations with Ferelden and Orlais.



However... after Biowares thread about popular countries to visit... who really thinks a sequel will be so close? I think there are lots of ideas still to pursue... with Al, Anora, and the whole crew... but that is wishful thinking.



If my Warden does not come back, then Alistair better damn show up!!

[CalJones]

You can look at it like that, but Loghain doesn't even see that letter unless you recruit him right at the end of the game. All he knows earlier on is that Cailan is planning to try and unite Thedas, and Arl Eamon is always going to back his nephew. I don't think Loghain wants the throne per se - more that he believes he must lead Fereldan out its current trouble (despite the fact he has unwittingly made things worse). I also believe (my theory only, so bear with me) that he goes as far as to become regent in order to protect Anora's right to the throne. Anora is generally loved and respected but he knows her lack of royal blood threatens her position (and he is correct on that, give what Eamon is trying to do). Anora, smart cookie though she is, is not as impressive an obstacle to potential usurpers as Anora + Loghain.



You can take a cynical view of Arl Eamon, who loses his own link to the throne (Cailan) and thus tries to push his Plan B (Alistair) onto the throne even though Alistair doesn't want it. I am sceptical that he even cares for Alistair all that much, given that he sent Alistair off to the chantry the moment his little Orlesian hussy stamped her pretty little feet. Sure, he comes across all noble, but the Eamon I see is far from innocent. Should Alistair become king, he does make himself chancellor, and I don't think it's entirely for alturistic reasons.

[errant_knight]

CalJones wrote...

You can look at it like that, but Loghain doesn't even see that letter unless you recruit him right at the end of the game. All he knows earlier on is that Cailan is planning to try and unite Thedas, and Arl Eamon is always going to back his nephew. I don't think Loghain wants the throne per se - more that he believes he must lead Fereldan out its current trouble (despite the fact he has unwittingly made things worse). I also believe (my theory only, so bear with me) that he goes as far as to become regent in order to protect Anora's right to the throne. Anora is generally loved and respected but he knows her lack of royal blood threatens her position (and he is correct on that, give what Eamon is trying to do). Anora, smart cookie though she is, is not as impressive an obstacle to potential usurpers as Anora + Loghain.

You can take a cynical view of Arl Eamon, who loses his own link to the throne (Cailan) and thus tries to push his Plan B (Alistair) onto the throne even though Alistair doesn't want it. I am sceptical that he even cares for Alistair all that much, given that he sent Alistair off to the chantry the moment his little Orlesian hussy stamped her pretty little feet. Sure, he comes across all noble, but the Eamon I see is far from innocent. Should Alistair become king, he does make himself chancellor, and I don't think it's entirely for alturistic reasons.

Eamon doesn't actually make himself Chancellor, Alistair does, and if you want to be Chancellor, Eamon gets turfed back to Redcliffe. Unless you're engaged to Alistair. If you ask to be Chancellor then, he thinks it's a tad greedy. Edit: I suppose Anora does the same thing in playthroughs I'll never see. Heh....

If you don't think Eamon cares at all, how do you explain the locket, described as being painstakingly pieced back together?

Modifié par errant_knight, 01 avril 2010 - 06:04 .

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

CalJones wrote...

You can look at it like that, but Loghain doesn't even see that letter unless you recruit him right at the end of the game. All he knows earlier on is that Cailan is planning to try and unite Thedas, and Arl Eamon is always going to back his nephew. I don't think Loghain wants the throne per se - more that he believes he must lead Fereldan out its current trouble (despite the fact he has unwittingly made things worse). I also believe (my theory only, so bear with me) that he goes as far as to become regent in order to protect Anora's right to the throne. Anora is generally loved and respected but he knows her lack of royal blood threatens her position (and he is correct on that, give what Eamon is trying to do). Anora, smart cookie though she is, is not as impressive an obstacle to potential usurpers as Anora + Loghain.

You can take a cynical view of Arl Eamon, who loses his own link to the throne (Cailan) and thus tries to push his Plan B (Alistair) onto the throne even though Alistair doesn't want it. I am sceptical that he even cares for Alistair all that much, given that he sent Alistair off to the chantry the moment his little Orlesian hussy stamped her pretty little feet. Sure, he comes across all noble, but the Eamon I see is far from innocent. Should Alistair become king, he does make himself chancellor, and I don't think it's entirely for alturistic reasons.

Eamon doesn't actually make himself Chancellor, Alistair does, and if you want to be Chancellor, Eamon gets turfed back to Redcliffe. Unless you're engaged to Alistair. If you ask to be Chancellor then, he thinks it's a tad greedy. Edit: I suppose Anora does the same thing in playthroughs I'll never see. Heh....

If you don't think Eamon cares at all, how do you explain the locket, described as being painstakingly pieced back together?

I always thought the opposite, that Arl Eamon's professed incistance on keeping the Therin bloodline was at least partly a mask to hide the fact that he felt guilty about how he treated Alistair and saw a chance to make it up to him. I have no real evidence so it's more a feeling than anything else of course.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 avril 2010 - 06:52 .

[Sarah1281]

I've always thought that Eamon just really seemed to hate Anora for some reason and the 'not nobly born' didn't seem to cut it. He didn't seem to have a problem with Loghain as Teyrn, after all (and since Loghain was the one who insisted he just didn't like her because of her family he's probably biased). Her possibly bearing barren could be another reason, but Eamon just sounds a bit too thrilled to throw hre in the tower (after first calling for her execution even though he knows Alistair could get himself killed as a GW fighting the Blight) if she isn't Queen. And he's majorly peeved at you if you marry the two (never tried sole Anora Queen) but he 'supposes' he should thank you because Anora's good at her job and the country is united.

[Raiil]

errant_knight wrote...

CalJones wrote...

You can look at it like that, but Loghain doesn't even see that letter unless you recruit him right at the end of the game. All he knows earlier on is that Cailan is planning to try and unite Thedas, and Arl Eamon is always going to back his nephew. I don't think Loghain wants the throne per se - more that he believes he must lead Fereldan out its current trouble (despite the fact he has unwittingly made things worse). I also believe (my theory only, so bear with me) that he goes as far as to become regent in order to protect Anora's right to the throne. Anora is generally loved and respected but he knows her lack of royal blood threatens her position (and he is correct on that, give what Eamon is trying to do). Anora, smart cookie though she is, is not as impressive an obstacle to potential usurpers as Anora + Loghain.

You can take a cynical view of Arl Eamon, who loses his own link to the throne (Cailan) and thus tries to push his Plan B (Alistair) onto the throne even though Alistair doesn't want it. I am sceptical that he even cares for Alistair all that much, given that he sent Alistair off to the chantry the moment his little Orlesian hussy stamped her pretty little feet. Sure, he comes across all noble, but the Eamon I see is far from innocent. Should Alistair become king, he does make himself chancellor, and I don't think it's entirely for alturistic reasons.

Eamon doesn't actually make himself Chancellor, Alistair does, and if you want to be Chancellor, Eamon gets turfed back to Redcliffe. Unless you're engaged to Alistair. If you ask to be Chancellor then, he thinks it's a tad greedy. Edit: I suppose Anora does the same thing in playthroughs I'll never see. Heh....

If you don't think Eamon cares at all, how do you explain the locket, described as being painstakingly pieced back together?

Guilt. That's how I viewed it. I have an extremely bad outlook on Eamon and Isolde, but I think in someways, it's more towards Eamon. Yes, Isolde is a **** and rather stupid, all things considered, but she is the wife of an Arl and her political power seems negligent in this case. Eamon, however, should know better.

He bleats about the good of Ferelden, and he may even believe it (I have no opinion on that) but he takes absolutely no steps in really preparing Alistair for the throne aside from some rah-rahs. He treated Alistair in a way I find extremely unsavoury. I'm not just saying this as some hopeless fangirl; forcing a young lad whose only sin is to be a bastard to sleep in the stables and then shunting him off into the Chantry because you don't have the stones to tell your wife to STFU and explain that there's more to this situation, to me, is unacceptable. 

Eamon is jockeying for a certain amount of power- power he had as the uncle of the King. He flat out says that the reason why he doesn't take the throne is because it would look bad- not that he wouldn't take it. He's willing to take the boy who has been through a living hell and just thrust him into a situation he's not equipped to handle. And advising Cailan to put Anora aside is also something I just don't like. Obviously Cailan wasn't too impressed with the idea, either.


To get (somewhat!) back on track, there's a part of me that feels that some of Cailan's motivation at Ostagar was to break free of people trying to assert a level of control over himself. It seems like Eamon and Loghain were just twisting and pulling him. What better way to make himself look better than to help the Wardens beat back a darkspawn threat? IDK, it just occured to me, but it makes a bit of sense. He seems to chafe at yokes.

[PatT2]

@CalJones - I hear in your comments all kinds sympathy for Loghain. Have you read the books? Curious. After those, I like him even less.



While I'm fairly sure that all the nobles do their share of plotting and such, and I am not at all sure that there aren't ulterior motives on the part of Eamon, that's not even the same thing as ordering your troops to withdraw from the field after you promised you'd charge at the signal. I highly doubt Cailan expected that. And if any general ever did that in our military, I would hope he would be hanged in public. I don't think any general that promises troop support and makes a show of it but skips out minutes before the battle...I don't think anyone like that deserves a title, a pension or a life.



You can say anything else you want about Loghain, his motives, or whatever, but he's a traitor at heart. And so the witch of the wilds prophecied before Cailan was ever born. She told Maric that Loghain would betray him if he kept him close, each time worse than the last. And isn't that exactly right?

[CalJones]

Well, I think guilt is more likely behind the locket - he is hardly making it up to Alistair by making him king, since it is the last thing Alistair actually wants. He has to bully Alistair into seeing his point of view with talk of duty.

Eamon's desire to keep the Theirin bloodline on the throne is mostly down to his traditional view and family ties (via Rowan). He is not wrong, in that sense - where I think he is being selfish is by putting a reluctant, inexperienced king on the throne at the very time Fereldan needs someone strong to guide it. Anora is widely respected (even by Celene) and liked and has proven an effective queen, so I see removing her as a mistake.

My preference is to have her and Alistair marry in order to have the best of both worlds. I've never had Alistair rule alone in any of my games (or with a Cousland queen for that matter - I see that as the ultimate selfish act - replacing a good and well-liked queen with a sterile warden. Great plan).

[CalJones]

PatT2 - I don't think Loghain is a nice man in the basic sense. He is definitely ruthless, but I see him as someone who tries to act for the greater good, though his view of what that constitutes may differ from what others see. I don't see him as a deliberate traitor.

Remember that when he went to rescue Maric at the battle of West Hill, Maric chewed him out and told him not to risk the country on behalf of one man, even if that one man happened to be king. With this in mind, his decision to withdraw from Ostagar makes more sense. I don't think the choice sits well with him - he certainly doesn't look happy in subsequent cutscenes - but he felt it was necessary. Whether the battle was lost, or whether he just perceived it as such, is down to player interpretation.

[SurelyForth]

CalJones wrote...

Well, I think guilt is more likely behind the locket - he is hardly making it up to Alistair by making him king, since it is the last thing Alistair actually wants. He has to bully Alistair into seeing his point of view with talk of duty.
Eamon's desire to keep the Theirin bloodline on the throne is mostly down to his traditional view and family ties (via Rowan). He is not wrong, in that sense - where I think he is being selfish is by putting a reluctant, inexperienced king on the throne at the very time Fereldan needs someone strong to guide it.
Anora is widely respected (even by Celene) and liked and has proven an effective queen, so I see removing her as a mistake.

My preference is to have her and Alistair marry in order to have the best of both worlds. I've never had Alistair rule alone in any of my games (or with a Cousland queen for that matter - I see that as the ultimate selfish act - replacing a good and well-liked queen with a sterile warden. Great plan).

I don't agree that Celene respects Anora, since Anora seemed to be totally out of the loop on Cailan's plans to unite with Orlais (never mind the implication that she and him had a relationship beyond that). Even the first time I read Anora's Codex I thought that Celene's comment was backhanded.

Also, there is only one specific dialogue (that you don't have to have before the Landsmeet) that reveals the Warden and Alistair might not be able to have children with one another. Unless you have that conversation and go down that tree, the PC doesn't know she's infertile until after the Landsmeet and by then it's too late.

Remember that when he went to rescue Maric at the battle of West Hill, Maric chewed him out and told him not to risk the country on behalf of one man, even if that one man happened to be king. With this in mind, his decision to withdraw from Ostagar makes more sense. I don't think the choice sits well with him - he certainly doesn't look happy in subsequent cutscenes - but he felt it was necessary. Whether the battle was lost, or whether he just perceived it as such, is down to player interpretation.

But it's more than one man. I think Loghain's biggest failing in Origins is how he refuses to see the Blight as a threat and how all of his actions systematically weaken Ferelden's ability to fight it. This, despite what he saw at Ostagar. He not only let Cailan die, when quit the field he knew everyone would be lost, including the Wardens. At that moment he made an executive decision that the Wardens would not be needed in any capacity.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 01 avril 2010 - 12:39 .

[Costin_Razvan]

@CalJones - I hear in your comments all kinds sympathy for Loghain. Have you read the books? Curious. After those, I like him even less.

Because of what? Kathriel? She certainly deserved her fate. You do not let a spy who betrayed you twice ( West Hill and Arl Howe ) live. In the end mind you, Maric killed her due to his own moment of anger and she deserved it.



Loghain risked his life time and time again to save the Rebelion and Maric. I find it funny how people hate characters not because of their actions and motives ( which in Loghain's case in the Stolen Throne were pretty selfless ) but because of behavior.

[jpdipity]

Like PatT2, after reading the books, I dislike Loghain even more so.



When I first played the game, before finishing the books, I thought Loghain was simply a Patriot who did what he thought was best for his country. After reading the books, I don’t believe that at all!



He is and never has been a Patriot. He is a selfish, stubborn man who thinks that he knows what is best for everyone who surrounds him, even the King. He didn’t fight for his country - he fought for Maric, he risked his life for Maric & he stayed for Maric. He never cared for the Rebellion’s cause, he cares nothing for Fereldan and questions why he has stayed to fight several times in the books. Nothing he did in the books was Patriotic in the least bit.



I'll leave it at that because I don't want to derail this wonderful thread by discussing Loghain's motives.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I've always thought that Eamon just really seemed to hate Anora for some reason and the 'not nobly born' didn't seem to cut it. He didn't seem to have a problem with Loghain as Teyrn, after all (and since Loghain was the one who insisted he just didn't like her because of her family he's probably biased). Her possibly bearing barren could be another reason, but Eamon just sounds a bit too thrilled to throw hre in the tower (after first calling for her execution even though he knows Alistair could get himself killed as a GW fighting the Blight) if she isn't Queen. And he's majorly peeved at you if you marry the two (never tried sole Anora Queen) but he 'supposes' he should thank you because Anora's good at her job and the country is united.

???  Eamon doesn't call for her execution, he says that she is a threat, and far from sounding thrilled, he sounds grim to me.  And he is absolutely right about her.  Once the Landsmeet decides against her- after Loghain had already agreed to abide by the LM's decision based on the duel- she is a traitor.  Her "if you think I'm going to swear that oath.." is incitement.  Granted, she had just seen her father die so she is in a bad state of mind, but all the more reason to realize that the end game is at hand and that she has lost it.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2010 - 03:21 .

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...
Eamon's desire to keep the Theirin bloodline on the throne is mostly down to his traditional view and family ties (via Rowan).

It is more than that.  In the rebellion, the Calenhad legend was the one thing that unified the country and rallied warring factions.  Fereldans seem to have little sense of national identity, but this mythos is one of the things that has cemented it.  Without that, it becomes the War of the Roses and a matter of which petty noble can scrabble or terrorize enough support to outdo the others.

He is not wrong, in that sense - where I think he is being selfish is by putting a reluctant, inexperienced king on the throne at the very time Fereldan needs someone strong to guide it. Anora is widely respected (even by Celene) and liked and has proven an effective queen, so I see removing her as a mistake.

It was under Anora's rule that the country descended into civil war and nearly became a charred ruin from a Blight.  While little of the most infamous acts of this time can be put directly at Anora's doorstep and out of blind trust she could not see Loghain's treachery happening right under her nose any more than Cailan could, that doesn't matter.  As she likes to remind everyone, the buck stopped with her.  She has proven not just an ineffective queen, but a disastrous one.

[Costin_Razvan]

He is a selfish, stubborn man who thinks that he knows what is best for everyone who surrounds him, even the King. He didn’t fight for his country - he fought for Maric, he risked his life for Maric & he stayed for Maric. He never cared for the Rebellion’s cause, he cares nothing for Fereldan and questions why he has stayed to fight several times in the books. Nothing he did in the books was Patriotic in the least bit.

So he is selfish because he was willing and almost gave up his life for Maric many times over. He joined Maric because of his father and stayed with Maric through the hell that was the rebellion for no real gain of his own ( he didn't want to be a lieutenant, a knight or anything else, he would have preferred to stay a simple farmer ), even when he was in love with Rowan and she didn't want him and even gave up Rowan for Maric's own sake when she finally returned the love.

Wait, what? I can understand the whole stubborn and thinking he knows what is best part, because he is like ( not without good reason though .) But seriously calling Loghain a selfish ****** in the Stolen Throne is the biggest pile of bull**** I have heard in a long time.

If anything Loghain keeps his oaths, he swore to his father to defend Maric and he did, he swore to defend Fereldan to Maric and he did his best, he swore to never put a single man above the lives of many others and he did it.

As she likes to remind everyone, the buck stopped with
her.  She has proven not just an ineffective queen, but a disastrous
one.

Ah yes, blamming the problems of the Civil War on her. Have you ever oppened a Medieval History book in your whole life? When kings die with no heir things have always degenareted in fighting, either open Civil war or more subtle things. The fact she had common blood as did Loghain did nothing to help the situation, but don't blame the fact the war started on her.

I will request that the thread be closed rather than see a very good thread ruined.

I love it how you seem to think to have some sort of control over this thread. Let me make a point simple and clear to you: You don't. If a Moderator/Admin deems this thread too big a flame war and closses it, then by all means, but don't presume to think you can speak in the name of any of them.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 avril 2010 - 04:01 .

[errant_knight]

Well, folks, we always knew someone like this would come along sooner or later, didn't we? I want to thank you all for the wonderful discussion that we've had to this point, the insight and thought that you've put into arguments on all sides, and the respect you've shown each other. It's been a great pleasure.



It occurs to me that we have one option that we might explore before I ask to have the thread closed. We could simply ignore Costin_Razven's posts, not respond to them, and better yet, not read them. He may eventually move onto a more combative thread where he can get a rise out of people, which seems to be what he wants--some kind of attention seeking thing....



He'd probably spam the thread for a while, but if we're not reading his posts, that doesn't really matter. It would have the side benefit of bumping the thread.



Anyway, I put it to you. Ignore him entirely, or shut the thread down before he damages thoughtful tone of debate further?

[CalJones]

SurelyForth wrote...
I don't agree that Celene respects Anora, since Anora seemed to be totally out of the loop on Cailan's plans to unite with Orlais (never mind the implication that she and him had a relationship beyond that). Even the first time I read Anora's Codex I thought that Celene's comment was backhanded.

I was going by the Codex entry. I guess you can look at it whatever way you want to.

SurelyForth wrote...
Also, there is only one specific dialogue (that you don't have to have before the Landsmeet) that reveals the Warden and Alistair might not be able to have children with one another. Unless you have that conversation and go down that tree, the PC doesn't know she's infertile until after the Landsmeet and by then it's too late.

You may be right there. Having said that, you do know that neither of you will be around for long so it's still somewhat suspect - but then it's like Wynne says, love can make a person selfish, and the romantics want their happy ending.

SurelyForth wrote...
But it's more than one man. I think Loghain's biggest failing in Origins is how he refuses to see the Blight as a threat and how all of his actions systematically weaken Ferelden's ability to fight it. This, despite what he saw at Ostagar. He not only let Cailan die, when quit the field he knew everyone would be lost, including the Wardens. At that moment he made an executive decision that the Wardens would not be needed in any capacity.

Yes, that's pretty much the jist of it. Writing off the Wardens was his biggest mistake, though arguably he had reason to view them as suspect due to the events of the Calling, not to mention that they were accompanied by several legions of heavily armoured rapists. His view has been coloured by the events of the occupation and his biggest failing is that he hasn't moved on from that. I don't entirely blame him for his mistrust of the Orlesians - I find their motives very suspect, especially in the light of the letters from Cailan's war chest. But his inability to see the Blight as the real threat is his undoing.
Nonethless, we also don't know whether he would have managed to save anyone even if he had responded to the beacon, or whether he would have merely succeeding in getting himself and the remainder of the army killed. It was late being lit, after all. We're just not privvy to how late, or how the battlefield looked at the time it was lit. It's one of this game's many charming amibuities. This thread isn't titled the Crystal clear waters at Ostagar, after all.  

[Addai]

errant_knight, I'm typically a fan of less is more when it comes to moderating. There are enough adults in the discussion that we can ignore one baby mewling for attention.

Then again, we've probably said all that can be said about such speculative topic and are just re-covering old ground.

That's my 2 coppers. As Frodo would say, ask an elf for advice and you get both a yes and a no.  And since my current character is an elf, I leave an homage to her.  

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2010 - 06:07 .

[Xanfaus]

CalJones wrote...

Nonethless, we also don't know whether he would have managed to save anyone even if he had responded to the beacon, or whether he would have merely succeeding in getting himself and the remainder of the army killed. It was late being lit, after all. We're just not privvy to how late, or how the battlefield looked at the time it was lit. It's one of this game's many charming amibuities. This thread isn't titled the Crystal clear waters at Ostagar, after all.  

The worst part about the battle at Ostagar is that even if Logain and his army came as called and joined the battle and they some how won, it still would not have mattered one bit. The blight would have continued unabated and the then unified forces would have suffered heavy losses for next to no gain.

Also, Logain gains some measure of redemption when he admits to the underestimating the blight and making a terrible, horrible decision near the end of the game if you choose to let him join you. He is still a fool, but at least he admits it.

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

I don't agree that Celene respects Anora, since Anora seemed to be totally out of the loop on Cailan's plans to unite with Orlais (never mind the implication that she and him had a relationship beyond that). Even the first time I read Anora's Codex I thought that Celene's comment was backhanded.

This can be interpreted two ways. IF Celene has no evil designs on Fereldan then it makes no sense to keep Anora out of the negotiations if she really thought Anora was the true power in the country. IF on the other hand Celene does have evil designs on Fereldan then it makes perfect sense for her to try and deal only with Cailan if she thinks Anora are more likely to see through her guile. Both scenarios are perfectly logical and we really know way to little of Celene to determine which scenario is most likely.

SurelyForth wrote...

But it's more than one man. I think Loghain's biggest failing in Origins is how he refuses to see the Blight as a threat and how all of his actions systematically weaken Ferelden's ability to fight it. This, despite what he saw at Ostagar. He not only let Cailan die, when quit the field he knew everyone would be lost, including the Wardens. At that moment he made an executive decision that the Wardens would not be needed in any capacity.

Your entire argument hinges around the assumption that Loghain could have saved any Grey Warden if he had joined the battle. We are still back to square one in that debate. Could Loghain have won the battle or saved Cailan and the Warden's if he had charged? It's been subject to much speculation, but in the end we have no proof either way.

I could elaborate more on what I think was Loghain's motives and why I think so, but that would just derail the thread, as this is about Cailan NOT Loghain.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 avril 2010 - 07:25 .