522 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...
You may be right there. Having said that, you do know that neither of you will be around for long so it's still somewhat suspect - but then it's like Wynne says, love can make a person selfish, and the romantics want their happy ending.

30 years or so is not really a short time in medieval childbearing terms.  Alistair's overthinking on the subject need not be taken as gospel.

And while it's true that there is certainly a selfish element in a Cousland marrying him, either out of love or political ambition, there are also advantages to it that mitigate the down side of the queen being a Warden.  The clout of the Cousland name being one.  This is leveled out of the Landsmeet, probably due to game simplification, but in a feudal system it would be no small thing.  There is also some sign that Anora is not bursting with fertility herself.

If you don't accept the premise that Anora deserves to retain her throne or should be kept there, the choice between her and a femCousland looks pretty one to one to my mind.  If the ruling pair can also be a love match, then why not?  There are inherent disadvantages in political marriages, too.

[CalJones]

Eamon's letter is pretty vague - it just says she hasn't produced an heir. It doesn't mean she can't - the fault could equally be Cailan's. We don't know either way.



The one thing we generally forget is that when one joins the Wardens, one is supposed to give up one's family ties and name, so in actual fact neither Alistair nor a Cousland should have any right to the throne. Alistair's Warden status is waived, largely because he is Maric's only known heir and thus the only chance to produce a child of the Theirin bloodline. The same can't be said of a Cousland (male or female) but they can take advantage of the fact Duncan's not around to slap some sense into them and tell them not to be selfish sods when there's an archdemon to be killed. It is nice to have the option in game to become consort, but not entirely in keeping with the spirit of the Wardens. Then again, not every Warden is a willing recruit.

[Xandurpein]

Let me repeat what I have posted elsewhere. If you play a human noble that marries Anora and then do the Dark ritual so Loghain lives, Loghain's speech in his cameo clearly hints that the reason Anora hasn't become pregnant yet has nothing really to do with fertility. She apparently aren't very interested in getting children.

Loghain's exact words to the human noble married to Anora is:

"I asked Anora if there are any plans for an heir. Her horrified look tells me no, but you might not want to wait much longer".

If her "horrified look" is due to the fact that she suspects she has fertility issues, then it's obviously something Loghain has no clue of.

[Thalorin1919]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
You may be right there. Having said that, you do know that neither of you will be around for long so it's still somewhat suspect - but then it's like Wynne says, love can make a person selfish, and the romantics want their happy ending.

30 years or so is not really a short time in medieval childbearing terms.  Alistair's overthinking on the subject need not be taken as gospel.

And while it's true that there is certainly a selfish element in a Cousland marrying him, either out of love or political ambition, there are also advantages to it that mitigate the down side of the queen being a Warden.  The clout of the Cousland name being one.  This is leveled out of the Landsmeet, probably due to game simplification, but in a feudal system it would be no small thing.  There is also some sign that Anora is not bursting with fertility herself.

If you don't accept the premise that Anora deserves to retain her throne or should be kept there, the choice between her and a femCousland looks pretty one to one to my mind.  If the ruling pair can also be a love match, then why not?  There are inherent disadvantages in political marriages, too.

All though I agree with you that loving couples should get married, via Alistair and the Cousland. The biggest issue is the one that deals with an heir.

I think David Gaider has said somewhere that two grey wardens cannot produce a child, so there are problems with marrying the cousland to Alistair. And also, there is no hard evidence that Anora is barren, but the issue is still there.

So basically if you marry Anora to Alistair, and they dont produce a child, you will have a power struggle. On whether to put aside the Grey Warden King or to put aside the Queen who has had two husbands and no child. And with the Coulsand and Alistair, she will have to let him marry someone else or have a mistress produce a bastard.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xandurpein wrote...



This can be interpreted two ways. IF Celene has no evil designs on Fereldan then it makes no sense to keep Anora out of the negotiations if she really thought Anora was the true power in the country. IF on the other hand Celene does have evil designs on Fereldan then it makes perfect sense for her to try and deal only with Cailan if she thinks Anora are more likely to see through her guile. Both scenarios are perfectly logical and we really know way to little of Celene to determine which scenario is most likely.

A possible explaination there also, is that Anora might have been kept out of the loop because of who her father was. Celene didn't necessarily have to have dark designs to want to keep Anora in the dark. Given that her father is a very vocal and rabid hater of anything Orlesian, and would probably actively work to undermine any negotiations between Ferelden and Orlais, Celene could have decided that there were greater chances of success without her knowing. Or, Cailan himself could have made the choice and passed it on, not wanting his father in law involved, because Loghain would see anything dealing with orlais, however benign, as a threat. 

I am just throwing another possibility out there. It is logical to assume that at that time, before Ostagar, that what nora knew would generally make it back to Loghain.

[Xandurpein]

My guess is that the whole thing is set up so that they can effectivly reset the history of Fereldan at a later point. If HNF + Alistair can't have children and Anora doesn't want to have children then no matter who gets to be King or Queen there will be no legitimate heir and they can pick anyone they want as future Monarch regardless of what the player choose, so they can have the same story for everyone 50 years after the events in DA:O.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

Eamon's letter is pretty vague - it just says she hasn't produced an heir. It doesn't mean she can't - the fault could equally be Cailan's. We don't know either way.

Loghain's cameo in Awakening and her epilogue as sole ruler do not paint a rosy picture of Anora's willingness, if not ability, to produce an heir.  If she marries someone with whom there is more than a little enmity, do you suppose that is going to change?

The one thing we generally forget is that when one joins the Wardens, one is supposed to give up one's family ties and name, so in actual fact neither Alistair nor a Cousland should have any right to the throne.

That is a Warden custom and has nothing to do with Fereldan law or politics, however.  My femCousland did not want to be a Warden and feels no compulsion to keep to their rules or expectations in such matters.  Duncan took advantage of her, and as far as she is concerned if she can unite the country and defeat a Blight, she has more than paid any duty owed the order.  Not that she won't still be a patroness of the Wardens in Ferelden, which in itself is a boon to the order, given the state that they're in.

The same can't be said of a Cousland (male or female) but they can take advantage of the fact Duncan's not around to slap some sense into them and tell them not to be selfish sods when there's an archdemon to be killed.

??  They still do go off to kill the archdemon regardless, so that's neither here nor there.  And it should be said that being queen is really only romantic in other sorts of stories.  It is service, and a kind of martyrdom, of another sort, especially in a country as unruly and decentralized as Ferelden.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2010 - 10:13 .

[Xandurpein]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...



This can be interpreted two ways. IF Celene has no evil designs on Fereldan then it makes no sense to keep Anora out of the negotiations if she really thought Anora was the true power in the country. IF on the other hand Celene does have evil designs on Fereldan then it makes perfect sense for her to try and deal only with Cailan if she thinks Anora are more likely to see through her guile. Both scenarios are perfectly logical and we really know way to little of Celene to determine which scenario is most likely.

A possible explaination there also, is that Anora might have been kept out of the loop because of who her father was. Celene didn't necessarily have to have dark designs to want to keep Anora in the dark. Given that her father is a very vocal and rabid hater of anything Orlesian, and would probably actively work to undermine any negotiations between Ferelden and Orlais, Celene could have decided that there were greater chances of success without her knowing. Or, Cailan himself could have made the choice and passed it on, not wanting his father in law involved, because Loghain would see anything dealing with orlais, however benign, as a threat. 

I am just throwing another possibility out there. It is logical to assume that at that time, before Ostagar, that what nora knew would generally make it back to Loghain.

True. Another thing that is worth considering is that Cailan obviously must have been discussing cooperation with Loghain a lot prior to Ostagar. The whole protracted argument between Loghain and Cailan is about the fact that Cailan wants to seek aid from Orlais. It doesn't make sense for Cailan to raise the possibility of inviting Orlesian aid at the meeting prior to Ostagar if he hadn't first made sure he could indeed hope for such aid, and that should have been clear to everyone. And the conversation hints that this is far from the first time that Cailan raised this possibility. So Loghain can't really have been unaware that Cailan had been negotiating an alliance with Orlais in some way. The question is then, just what in Cailan's letters was it that made Loghain so upset in RtO, that he shouldn't already have figured out? 

[Costin_Razvan]

The question is then, just what in Cailan's letters was it that made Loghain so upset in RtO, that he shouldn't already have figured out?

What the last letter implies, maybe? It does imply heavily that Cailan was planning to wed Celene, at least in Loghain's mind.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

The same can't be said of a Cousland (male or female) but they can take advantage of the fact Duncan's not around to slap some sense into them and tell them not to be selfish sods when there's an archdemon to be killed.

??  They still do go off to kill the archdemon regardless, so that's neither here nor there.  And it should be said that being queen is really only romantic in stories.  It is service, and a kind of martyrdom, of another sort, especially in a country as unruly and decentralized as Ferelden.

Not to mention the fact that if a Cousland cannot be King or Queen, because they are Grey Wardens, then the same obviously applies to Alistair.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It depends on just how much of his negotiation with Orlais he was disclosing. For all we knew, he merely told Loghain that he had gotten some support from Orlais, but beyond that, nothing. Perhaps Cailan was trying to negotiate a more permanent alliance (not necessarily marrying the Empress) but something else entirely.



Loghain gets quite upset at the mention of anything Orlesian. Loghain does have heavy paranoia issues, and always sees the black cloud inside the silvering lining where anything regarding orlais is concerned. he sees conspiracy and shadow of conspiracy everywhere.

[Xandurpein]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

It depends on just how much of his negotiation with Orlais he was disclosing. For all we knew, he merely told Loghain that he had gotten some support from Orlais, but beyond that, nothing. Perhaps Cailan was trying to negotiate a more permanent alliance (not necessarily marrying the Empress) but something else entirely.

Loghain gets quite upset at the mention of anything Orlesian. Loghain does have heavy paranoia issues, and always sees the black cloud inside the silvering lining where anything regarding orlais is concerned. he sees conspiracy and shadow of conspiracy everywhere.

Yes, but if Cailan suggests before Ostagar that they should hold the battle and join forces with Orlais, that  suggests  that the negotiations had gone so far that a deal had already been brokered and Orlais begun mobilising. If they would have to wait for a deal with Orlais be finalized and then Orlais begin to mobilise their army and be ready to move into Fereldan it could be over a month before any troops from Oralis entered Fereldan. Mobilising a feudal army was not done in a hurry. The very fact that Cailan suggests that they seek aid from Orlais almost in contact with the enemy, must have told Loghain as much as the letters about how far Cailan's deal with Celene had come, with the exception of the supposed marriage deal, we still don't know is true.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 avril 2010 - 10:43 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I'm talking about negotiations beyond military support. Longer term plans. Treaties of mutual aid. Trade negotiations, diplomatic ones, exchanges of different sorts. Things beyond requests for military aid for the Blight. Perhaps negotiating marriages between certain powerful Ferelden noble houses and orlesian ones. Territorial negotiations. Ect.



Things that look further into the future, beyond the Blight. Long term planning for closer relations with Orlais on many fronts. From what I read into the letters, more than just aid from orlesian Chevalier was being discussed, and probably things of a broader scope.

[Sarah1281]

That is a Warden custom and has nothing to do with Fereldan law or politics, however. My femCousland did not want to be a Warden and feels no compulsion to keep to their rules or expectations in such matters. Duncan took advantage of her, and as far as she is concerned if she can unite the country and defeat a Blight, she has more than paid any duty owed the order. Not that she won't still be a patroness of the Wardens in Ferelden, which in itself is a boon to the order, given the state that they're in.

The only piece of evidence we have that would suggest otherwise is how King Arland made Sophia Dryden a GW to appease her supporters in lieu of having her executed. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he stripped her of her titles first since she was on the losing side and refused to capitulate (Anora, if you'll notice, doesn't inherit Gwaren if she loses and Loghain seems to think he's a former Teyrn despite the fact that the 'no GW w/ titles doesn't have to be inforced if the PC is prince-consort or Alistair is King). If her being a GW automatically meant she could not hold a title then her children should still be able to inherit it - and we know she had children prior to being a GW or else it probably would have come up during the 'GW have fertility issues' section and Sophia was too busy leading a revolt to take a few month off to have a kid - but they didn't. Levi said that their family was stripped of their titles and land, not that having one holder of the title being a GW disqualified them. Additonally, while Nathaniel's insistence his paternal grandfather ran off to join the GW contradicts the codex entry saying he was hung for being traitor during the rebellion, no mention is made that the decision to be a GW meant Rendon Howe couldn't inherit Amaranthine. Arland most likely knew that, much like with Loghain, he couldn't just let Sophia go and he obviously couldn't trust her so he shuttled her off to the supposedly defunct GW and expected that to be the end of the matter. How was he to know Sophia was apparently so charismatic and effective that she'd start up a whole new rebellion?

[Xandurpein]

Don't forget that we learn in Awakening that the whole idea that the Grey Warden's can hold land and that the Commander doubles as Arl of Amaranthine is something so exceptional that it raises a lot of interest back in Weisshaupt. Apparently this is almost unheard of and now Weisshaupt hopes that the Grey Wardens in Amaranthine can be an example used to open the way for a general acceptance of more secular power for the Grey Wardens. I think it would be ironic if it turns out that one outcome of DA:O is that Grey Wardens become more pwoer hungry and starts down a slope towards corruption and people loosing faith in them, because they start wanting more power, using amaranthine as an example.

¨

@at Skadi. Good points. While I think that Cailan in all probability would have given away much of his plans already to Loghain in their debates, I can see that maybe he hadn't told Loghain of the extent to which he hoped to ally Fereldan with Orlais, if that was indeed what he planned, I'm still not convinced just how much we can read into those letters.

[CalJones]

Well, the second "informal" letter states that they are planning a permanent alliance. Such a thing would be enough to make Loghain's head explode.



Whether that would be based on a political marriage between Celene and Cailan is another matter, though it's not an unreasonable assumption to make - this was generally how alliances were forged in the middle ages.



*spoilers if you haven't read The Calling*



Incidentally, one thing I've noticed (now that I've finally manged to get a copy of the Calling) is the whole Alistair/Fiona thing. I know some people believe that Fiona (not some star-struck maid) is Alistair's real mother. However, I don't think this is the case. Codex says that Alistair was given to Eamon to raise in order to it keep Rowan from finding out, more or less. Likewise, if you ask Loghain why Maric didn't acknowledge Alistair, he said he nearly did, but kept quiet because "it would have ruined Rowan," and that she'd be reduced to the role of a concubine in the eyes of the other nations. This heavily implies that Rowan was still alive when Alistair was born.

Fiona wasn't on the scene until after Rowan died, so there is the possibility of another bastard heir waiting in the wings, should Anora/Alistair/Coulsand fail to produce an heir. Food for thought.

[Kryyptehk]

What I don't understand about that is why would Maric give Fiona's child to Eamon, Rowan's brother, if he didn't want her to find out? I'm not saying anything about whether Alistair is her kid or not, but that just doesn't seem very bright.

[Maria13]

Why not? Keep family secrets in the family, Emon too would have a vested interest in keeping Alistair's parentage confidential as he was a potential heir but not of his family's blood (this may also explain his ambivalent treatment of the lad) and away from the royal see at Denerim.

[Xandurpein]

Kryyptehk wrote...

What I don't understand about that is why would Maric give Fiona's child to Eamon, Rowan's brother, if he didn't want her to find out? I'm not saying anything about whether Alistair is her kid or not, but that just doesn't seem very bright.

I agree. IF Rowan was still alive when Eamon got Alistair, then I can't see how Rowan would just accept that Eamon suddenly was taking care of a child without asking why and start prodding if Eamon got evasive. Unless Eamon flat out lied about the boy and claimed it was his Rowan's natural curiosity would make the whole situation extremely awkward.

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...

I agree. IF Rowan was still alive when Eamon got Alistair, then I can't see how Rowan would just accept that Eamon suddenly was taking care of a child without asking why and start prodding if Eamon got evasive. Unless Eamon flat out lied about the boy and claimed it was his Rowan's natural curiosity would make the whole situation extremely awkward.

Especially since Alistair and Cailan do look alike. Your brother suddenly raising a bastard who bears a striking resemblance to your own son would not be something you shrugged off.

[Maria13]

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I agree. IF Rowan was still alive when Eamon got Alistair, then I can't see how Rowan would just accept that Eamon suddenly was taking care of a child without asking why and start prodding if Eamon got evasive. Unless Eamon flat out lied about the boy and claimed it was his Rowan's natural curiosity would make the whole situation extremely awkward.

Especially since Alistair and Cailan do look alike. Your brother suddenly raising a bastard who bears a striking resemblance to your own son would not be something you shrugged off.

The reason why Alistair occassionally slept with the dogs?  Big sister coming to call...

[SurelyForth]

Maria13 wrote...


The reason why Alistair occassionally slept with the dogs?  Big sister coming to call...

I was under the impression that Alistair always slept in the hayloft.

It might be unlikely, even if Alistair was born while Rowan was alive, that Rowan would have seen him. She was ill for a long time. I don't imagine she got out much towards the end.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 avril 2010 - 03:28 .

[jpdipity]

CalJones wrote...

*spoilers if you haven't read The Calling*

Incidentally, one thing I've noticed (now that I've finally manged to get a copy of the Calling) is the whole Alistair/Fiona thing. I know some people believe that Fiona (not some star-struck maid) is Alistair's real mother. However, I don't think this is the case. Codex says that Alistair was given to Eamon to raise in order to it keep Rowan from finding out, more or less. Likewise, if you ask Loghain why Maric didn't acknowledge Alistair, he said he nearly did, but kept quiet because "it would have ruined Rowan," and that she'd be reduced to the role of a concubine in the eyes of the other nations. This heavily implies that Rowan was still alive when Alistair was born.
Fiona wasn't on the scene until after Rowan died, so there is the possibility of another bastard heir waiting in the wings, should Anora/Alistair/Coulsand fail to produce an heir. Food for thought.

The Codex is biased - it does not list facts, but what is believed by the character that provided the information.  Just because Loghain says it was to protect Rowan and Rowan was alive doesn't mean that is the truth - it is only what he believed.

The events in the books are revealed as they happen; so, they are without bias.  There is no mention of any other "bastard" children or even any other affairs by Maric in the book.  This leads me to believe that Loghain and Eamon were likely told what they needed to hear and not necessarily the truth.  Furthermore, Fiona says not to even tell Loghain the truth; so, I highly doubt that Maric would have opposed her wishes.

Modifié par jpdipity, 02 avril 2010 - 04:16 .

[Sarah1281]

I was under the impression that Alistair always slept in the hayloft.

I keep hearing people talking about that but I've never heard Alistair say anything about it and he only mentions dogs when he's trying to evade questions about Eamon at the beginning. When does he say that he slept outside?

[CalJones]

The only time I've heard something like that is if you take him on the Rescue the Queen quest. He says something about they used to come here (the Arl of Denerim's estate) in summer. He slept with the hounds.



Re: the Calling - how do you figure that the Codex is biased? The character sheets seem pretty neutral (unlike, say, texts from Brother Genitivi or book entries).

Point is, the events of that book are 11 years after the war, or 19 years ago. Alistair is supposedly about 24, which makes him too old to be Fiona's child.

It may be that he is *supposed* to be Fiona's child, but that Bioware made a mistake with the timeline. It wouldn't be the first time - the Baldur's Gate timeline is all over the place. But if you discount that, then logically, he cannot be Fiona's due to the timings involved.