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[SurelyForth]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I was under the impression that Alistair always slept in the hayloft.

I keep hearing people talking about that but I've never heard Alistair say anything about it and he only mentions dogs when he's trying to evade questions about Eamon at the beginning. When does he say that he slept outside?

When he's talking about Isolde during the conversation you have about his upbringing, if you say "That sounds like a bunch of whining", he'll say he slept in the hayloft and not on silk sheets.

[ejoslin]

It is FAR more likely that Alistair slept with the squires, not the dogs. If he were really treated that poorly, there would be no rumors about him being Eamon's bastard, after all.

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
Re: the Calling - how do you figure that the Codex is biased? The character sheets seem pretty neutral (unlike, say, texts from Brother Genitivi or book entries).

DG said so. Plus, the game is updating the entries with information your character is gathering while you're playing.

CalJones wrote...
Point is, the events of that book are 11 years after the war, or 19 years ago. Alistair is supposedly about 24, which makes him too old to be Fiona's child.
It may be that he is *supposed* to be Fiona's child, but that Bioware made a mistake with the timeline. It wouldn't be the first time - the Baldur's Gate timeline is all over the place. But if you discount that, then logically, he cannot be Fiona's due to the timings involved.

9:00 - Start of the Dragon Age
9:02 - Death of Meghren
9:03 - Maric Crowned King (Age 24)
9:05 - Cailan Born
9:08 - Queen Rowan Dies
9:10 - The Calling (Cailan age 5, Maric age 31)
9:20 - Connor Born
9:25 - Maric Disappears (Age 46), Cailan takes throne (Age 20)
9:30 - Modern Dragon Age Game

I have an inkling that the in-game story about the maid and Rowan probably belonged to the originally intended older version of Alistair? At that time he was supposed to be older than Cailan, wasn't he?

Modifié par klarabella, 02 avril 2010 - 05:55 .

[jpdipity]

CalJones wrote...

The only time I've heard something like that is if you take him on the Rescue the Queen quest. He says something about they used to come here (the Arl of Denerim's estate) in summer. He slept with the hounds.

Re: the Calling - how do you figure that the Codex is biased? The character sheets seem pretty neutral (unlike, say, texts from Brother Genitivi or book entries).
Point is, the events of that book are 11 years after the war, or 19 years ago. Alistair is supposedly about 24, which makes him too old to be Fiona's child.
It may be that he is *supposed* to be Fiona's child, but that Bioware made a mistake with the timeline. It wouldn't be the first time - the Baldur's Gate timeline is all over the place. But if you discount that, then logically, he cannot be Fiona's due to the timings involved.

Gaider said it somewhere on these forums.  The Codex is not necessarily facts.  It is information that is available to the PC - obviously some of it will be facts, but it also includes opinion and perhaps even false information that a character was given.  I'll have to try searching if you want a direct link because I certainly didn't save it.

Alistair's age has been a big debate on these forums.  The toolset says 32, but I've seen estimates as low as 19 on the forums.  I have seen nothing that confirms or denies his age, but I certainly could have missed that information.   Fiona had her child when Cailan was 9 years old according to the Calling.

The timelines between the books and the game are all a little goofy anyways - a couple of years off here or there is not going to prove or disprove anything.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Even that timeline would have been out of whack. The older Alistair was meant to be 32, which means he would have been born before the start of Stolen throne, which is unlikely, since Eamon was only about 10 or something, and the whole Guerrin family was in exile in the Free Marches.

[Cuddlezarro]

Fiona had her child when Cailan was 9 years old according to the Calling.

that was an error in some versions of the book



Cailen was 5 in my copy and gaider confirmed it a while back that 5 is the correct age

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

*spoilers if you haven't read The Calling*

Incidentally, one thing I've noticed (now that I've finally manged to get a copy of the Calling) is the whole Alistair/Fiona thing. I know some people believe that Fiona (not some star-struck maid) is Alistair's real mother. However, I don't think this is the case. Codex says that Alistair was given to Eamon to raise in order to it keep Rowan from finding out, more or less. Likewise, if you ask Loghain why Maric didn't acknowledge Alistair, he said he nearly did, but kept quiet because "it would have ruined Rowan," and that she'd be reduced to the role of a concubine in the eyes of the other nations. This heavily implies that Rowan was still alive when Alistair was born.
Fiona wasn't on the scene until after Rowan died, so there is the possibility of another bastard heir waiting in the wings, should Anora/Alistair/Coulsand fail to produce an heir. Food for thought.

The in-game information is contradictory and at best we can say that Alistair and Loghain are both sketchy on the facts of his birth.  Which is actually not out of the realm of possibility, since whatever the circumstances, it was all trying to be hushed up.  Alistair tells the PC that his father died even before his mother did, which completely blows out any idea of Rowan being around.  Gaider has also specifically said that the codex information on Alistair's age is wrong and was supposed to have been corrected.

I don't have a fine grasp of the numbers and dates, but Gaider also corrected Cailan's age, I believe saying that he was actually 5 years old during the events of The Calling.  He seems to be at least arranging things such that our speculation about Alistair being Fiona's baby can continue unabated.  To me it seems obvious, if not 100% sure, that the baby we meet in The Calling is Alistair.

[jpdipity]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Even that timeline would have been out of whack. The older Alistair was meant to be 32, which means he would have been born before the start of Stolen throne, which is unlikely, since Eamon was only about 10 or something, and the whole Guerrin family was in exile in the Free Marches.

19-32 yrs old makes sense.  He was supposed to be older than Cailan and that changed somewhere, but never corrected in the toolset.  Likely Alistair is 19-23 from what I've been reading which is why a few years here or there really doesn't matter - close enough.  Especially since Gaider has said things post-publishing to try to correct the timeline as well. 
To me, Fiona's baby must be Alistair.  We have not heard of any other children - it is the most logical conclusion to draw based on the information we have.  Who Alistair, Logahin or Eamon thinks his mother is makes absolutely no difference - Fiona did not want her child to know about her; so, clearly all of these parties would not have been told the truth. 

This discussion is getting a bit off topic though...

Modifié par jpdipity, 02 avril 2010 - 07:59 .

[Zeleen]

The possible "death" upon partaking of the joining is only know to Grey Wardens- that's why the joining is a secret.

[Sarah1281]

Well it WAS until Anora blabbled about it at the Landsmeet. I guess that's just one more reason to let Alistair duel Loghain.

[Thalorin1919]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

*spoilers if you haven't read The Calling*

Incidentally, one thing I've noticed (now that I've finally manged to get a copy of the Calling) is the whole Alistair/Fiona thing. I know some people believe that Fiona (not some star-struck maid) is Alistair's real mother. However, I don't think this is the case. Codex says that Alistair was given to Eamon to raise in order to it keep Rowan from finding out, more or less. Likewise, if you ask Loghain why Maric didn't acknowledge Alistair, he said he nearly did, but kept quiet because "it would have ruined Rowan," and that she'd be reduced to the role of a concubine in the eyes of the other nations. This heavily implies that Rowan was still alive when Alistair was born.
Fiona wasn't on the scene until after Rowan died, so there is the possibility of another bastard heir waiting in the wings, should Anora/Alistair/Coulsand fail to produce an heir. Food for thought.

The in-game information is contradictory and at best we can say that Alistair and Loghain are both sketchy on the facts of his birth.  Which is actually not out of the realm of possibility, since whatever the circumstances, it was all trying to be hushed up.  Alistair tells the PC that his father died even before his mother did, which completely blows out any idea of Rowan being around.  Gaider has also specifically said that the codex information on Alistair's age is wrong and was supposed to have been corrected.

I don't have a fine grasp of the numbers and dates, but Gaider also corrected Cailan's age, I believe saying that he was actually 5 years old during the events of The Calling.  He seems to be at least arranging things such that our speculation about Alistair being Fiona's baby can continue unabated.  To me it seems obvious, if not 100% sure, that the baby we meet in The Calling is Alistair.

I think Alistair said his father died before his mother to...try to make up a different story. Doesnt he say that to us BEFORE he tells us the truth?

Also Loghain said that both Rowan and Maric were alive. Since Maric almost mentioned Alistair once, but it would've broken Rowans heart. So I think they were both alive, and I think Alistair is a tad older then Cailan.

There is no way Alistair is 32. He doesnt look 32 and certainly doesnt act the way. I would place it aorund Cailan's age, so maybe.....yeah 25.

[Huojin]

What? Alistair doesn't look 25!



I always assumed (having not read the books) that Cailan and Alistair were both around/nearing 30. Alistair certainly looks 30-ish, with Cailan a little younger.



Alistair acts like a child, so his temperament shouldn't really be taken into account when debating his age lol

[Costin_Razvan]

Age cannot be determined by looks alone mind you. People who have trained their entire lives in combat ( like Alistair, Trian, Bhelen etc. ) look a lot older then they actually are.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

It is FAR more likely that Alistair slept with the squires, not the dogs. If he were really treated that poorly, there would be no rumors about him being Eamon's bastard, after all.

Except that's never said, and it is mentioned that he slept with the hounds, or in the hayloft. It's only more likely in terms of what we might consider appropriate, not in terms of information that we're given. It may not have been considered as being inappropriate, or poor treatment. He was being raised as the bastard son of a maid, , and certainly not with any ideas that he might have greater expectations than that.

[Stoomkal]

I love it how small *slivers* of information can get blown totally out of proportion... 

Firstly, Alistair says once that he slept in a hayloft, but only when his family visited the Howes. This seems more like avoiding stuck up relatives for the period of a holiday - it certainly is not grounds to say he slept outside his whole life.

Secondly, I was suprised when I played RTO at just how much the Anora fertility issue was blown out of proportion. She is *never* said to be infertile, it is simply Eamon commenting on them not having a child. That is all. There is far more information to say it is because she is not really that involved with Cailan. He was suggesting finding a wife that was.

Lastly... the one thing that strikes me about Loghain if you spare him is the fact that even he seems to see the error of his ways.

I believe that even by the time of the Landsmeet, things had gotten out of control for Loghain. He did want to unite the country, he had just gone about it the very wrong way and sided with some dubious characters. He didn't like Orlais and felt that weak men like Cailan could not save the country. I feel even he regretted his actions.

Doesn't stop me from having a climactic showdown, though... 


EDIT: spelling...

Modifié par Stoomkal, 02 avril 2010 - 11:57 .

[errant_knight]

I don't know if it's blowing things out of proportion so much as the writer's putting in hints as to one scenario without bothering to put in corrosponding hints as to an alternative. If what those things point to isn't the case, I'd say they want us to think otherwise for some reason.

Modifié par errant_knight, 03 avril 2010 - 12:52 .

[LadyZaria]

Secondly, I was suprised when I played RTO at just how much the Anora fertility issue was blown out of proportion. She is *never* said to be infertile, it is simply Eamon commenting on them not having a child. That is all. There is far more information to say it is because she is not really that involved with Cailan. He was suggesting finding a wife that was.

I believe the Bartender also has a rumor that she's barren. (Don't feel like checking right now).



But I remember somewhere someone saying there was a rumor she was barren, and it was a curse because she's not descended from any royal line. (Loghain was born a farmboy, so while he may have been given a title later, he still didn't have "noble blood")

[A Puzzled Mind]

LadyZaria wrote...

Secondly, I was suprised when I played RTO at just how much the Anora fertility issue was blown out of proportion. She is *never* said to be infertile, it is simply Eamon commenting on them not having a child. That is all. There is far more information to say it is because she is not really that involved with Cailan. He was suggesting finding a wife that was.

I believe the Bartender also has a rumor that she's barren. (Don't feel like checking right now).

But I remember somewhere someone saying there was a rumor she was barren, and it was a curse because she's not descended from any royal line. (Loghain was born a farmboy, so while he may have been given a title later, he still didn't have "noble blood")

Yes the bartender does say that. But if you listen the other crap the bartender says, you'd realize you are listening wise-ass rumors that are half-truths.

[Thor Rand Al]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well it WAS until Anora blabbled about it at the Landsmeet. I guess that's just one more reason to let Alistair duel Loghain.

Lol that's why I let Alistair dual Loghain now, that and the fact I see it as it is Alistair's right.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

When the game starts, we see an apparently overconfident king who's looking for easy glory. He's open to the idea of additional troops from Orleis, something that is vehemently opposes by Loghain, but doesn't want to wait for that to happen. It appears to be more of an idea that he favors than actual fact, and he doesn't seem to think it's necessary.

Later, we find out that not only does he think it's necessary, he has all the treaties in place to allow it to happen. We also find out that he has serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at Ostagar, and even has doubts about his own survival. He's made arrangements to preserve the treaties if he is killed. It would seem that Cailan was playing a much deeper game than it appeared.

This creates a big question. Why didn't Cailan want to wait? Why was he so determined that the battle be fought when it was? If Cailan told Elric that there would be no victory at Ostagar, it would seem to imply that he knew something that Duncan, who believed the plan would succeed, did not--something that cast doubt on victory, but also made it imperative that they not wait for the Orleisians. What would that have been, and why wouldn't it be something he could share with Duncan? Why would he not wish to wait when he'd arranged for a stronger force to be available, clearly believing that was important?

Did he suspect treachery from Loghain, perhaps fearing a move against the crown, a civil war that would divide the armies making it impossible to gather such a large force again? He seems surprised by Howe's treachery, so perhaps not. Was it something else that we have no hint of? One has to wonder.

I personally consider this to be a bad Retrocon on the part of the writers.   I don't buy it (unless the realization of defeat only came at the very start of the battle).   If you put what is said in RTO aside, the basic facts and testimony don't add up.   Neither do Cailan's behavior.   If it's true, then he must be a genius level actor.    If he really thought it was risky why did he not heed the advice of both Loghain and Arl Eamon and not put himself on the front line?    I understand face saving, and motivating the troops but that sort of thing can only go so far when the fate of the kingdom is at stake.    I think the narrative that he is is a loveable fool that is trying to be a legendary king much more convincing.

By the way, in reading other articles on this game like this one.

http://greywardens.c...-but-the-truth/

I think the writers try to do this sort of thing deliberately.   The game is setup as a kind of Rorschach Inkblot test that allows many kinds of interpretations of its characters and thus allows many different types of play styles which increases its audience and add's to its replayability.   

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mai 2010 - 02:56 .

[Khazar-Khum]

Stoomkal wrote...

I was suprised when I played RTO at just how much the Anora fertility issue was blown out of proportion. She is *never* said to be infertile, it is simply Eamon commenting on them not having a child. That is all. There is far more information to say it is because she is not really that involved with Cailan. He was suggesting finding a wife that was.
..

Ahh, the letters.  Letters, we get letters...

We have three undated letters, one of which is from Eamon and which seems to give the least information. It's a discussion about an heir, and Anora, and maybe replacing her before Cailan manages to get himself hurt or killed. We know Cailan has no children; we know he and Anora don't get along to the point he and Loghain are fighting about it; so what else is it really telling us?

It's telling us Cailan had Alistair brought from the Templars to be his heir apparent.  Since Alistair was retrieved from the Templars some six months previously, the letter must predate that; which means Cailan came to the conclusion that having a half-brother as heir presumptive was better than continuing to have no children with Anora.

Alistair knows this, at least at some level.

[Xandurpein]

Khazar-Khum wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

I was suprised when I played RTO at just how much the Anora fertility issue was blown out of proportion. She is *never* said to be infertile, it is simply Eamon commenting on them not having a child. That is all. There is far more information to say it is because she is not really that involved with Cailan. He was suggesting finding a wife that was.
..

Ahh, the letters.  Letters, we get letters...

We have three undated letters, one of which is from Eamon and which seems to give the least information. It's a discussion about an heir, and Anora, and maybe replacing her before Cailan manages to get himself hurt or killed. We know Cailan has no children; we know he and Anora don't get along to the point he and Loghain are fighting about it; so what else is it really telling us?

It's telling us Cailan had Alistair brought from the Templars to be his heir apparent.  Since Alistair was retrieved from the Templars some six months previously, the letter must predate that; which means Cailan came to the conclusion that having a half-brother as heir presumptive was better than continuing to have no children with Anora.

Alistair knows this, at least at some level.

Necro thread, but I'll say this much. There is, to my knowledge, not a shred of evidence to support the theory that Cailan had anything to do with bringing Alistair from the Templars to make him a Warden. And if Cailan would indeed consider making Alistair his heir, then not even he would have been stupid enough to make Alistair a Grey Warden, effectively reducing his chance of ever producing an heir of his own to minuscle (even if tons of fanfic would have you believe otherwise). Not tomention the fact that all agree that it's unheard of for a Warden to become King anyway. That theory simply doesn't add up.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 02 juillet 2010 - 10:43 .

[DebatableBubble]

bump

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xandurpein wrote...
Necro thread, but I'll say this much. There is, to my knowledge, not a shred of evidence to support the theory that Cailan had anything to do with bringing Alistair from the Templars to make him a Warden. And if Cailan would indeed consider making Alistair his heir, then not even he would have been stupid enough to make Alistair a Grey Warden, effectively reducing his chance of ever producing an heir of his own to minuscle (even if tons of fanfic would have you believe otherwise). Not tomention the fact that all agree that it's unheard of for a Warden to become King anyway. That theory simply doesn't add up.

My thoughts exactly, especially Gaider's revelation that Cailan was indeed planning to marry Celene. Given that insight, it is less than likely he was planning anything but his own heirs and glory. I highly doubt that Cailan even spared Alistair much of a thought, especially as it's made clear that before Cailan died, Alistair was little more than Maric's dirty little secret that had to get brushed and buried away for Cailan's sake.

Given Cailain's now confirmed sub-standard intellect, it is more likely Cailain wanted Alistair away from the fighting so his bastard half brother "wouldn't get in on the glory".

[Sarah1281]

I don't think the revelation about Cailan planning to wed Celene makes the thought that he was trying to protect potential-heir Alistair any less plausible (though I now have much less faith in Cailan's intelligence to put it mildly) but rather more so. After all, we know that he was highly concerned about heirs if he's putting Anora aside over the lack of them. It's all well and good to plan to marry Celene and have several heirs with her but Celene isn't even coming to Ferelden until the Blight (or 'incursion') is over and he could die, no matter how unlikely he considers that possibility. If he dies then there will be no unification and he still has no children of his own.