Chasseresse wrote...
Could be the insistance on Elric having to give the key to the Grey Wardens was so that it would end up in Alistair's hands, who he made sure was given the "safe" job during the battle.
Carodej wrote...
Oops, I see I wasn't very clear about what I meant. We learned about Cailan's worry over the state of the battle from Elric. From how I interpreted RtO, I had the impression Elric learned this bit of infomation during the battle.errant_knight wrote...
Carodej wrote...
I think I must go through RtO again, but the way I interpreted these doubts is that they did not occure prior to the battle, but that this part (at least) was after the battle had been joined and things were going poorly.errant_knight wrote...
We also find out that he has serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at Ostagar, and even has doubts about his own survival.
You have to love the depth of this game.
You do, don't you?
I don't think there's be any opportunity for discussion once the battle was joined. It was pretty intense. And he did send Alistair to the tower well before that.
As for sending Alistair to the Tower of Ishal, I think that was mostly because Cailan didn't want his half brother - a potential rival for his throne (even if only as a figurehead) - to have a chance at the glory Cailan figured to get by stopping this mini-blight. Cailan may or may not have also realized that for the good of the royal line, putting the only other known member of this bloodline in a safer place made for a good insurance policy as well. So maybe it was smart or maybe it was glory seeking or maybe it was both. It didn't signify to me that Cailan had serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at that time.
SusanStoHelit wrote...
Also consider this. If Cailan did decide to put Alistair where he would be available as heir - the Wardens is a very good choice. First, Duncan may have told him that Alistair was a 'good risk', that he'd a good chance of surviving the Joining. Second, the Grey Wardens as a whole would have a vested interest in protecting Alistair. He's put him in a group of people who are very loyal to each other, who are skilled fighters, and who have connections in places all over Thedas - political and military.
Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 02:32 .
SusanStoHelit wrote...
Chasseresse wrote...
Could be the insistance on Elric having to give the key to the Grey Wardens was so that it would end up in Alistair's hands, who he made sure was given the "safe" job during the battle.
Exactly. He wants Alistair to have those papers. And the other gear.
Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 02:34 .
It is! It has so much...potential. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]SusanStoHelit wrote...
And yes - keeping Loghain at bay, such a lovely phrase.
errant_knight wrote...
Good point. Staying on Cailan's good side, and making sure to minimize Loghain's influence was very much in the interests of the grey wardens.
Carodej wrote...
As for sending Alistair to the Tower of Ishal, I think that was mostly because Cailan didn't want his half
brother - a potential rival for his throne (even if only as a figurehead) - to have a chance at the glory Cailan figured to get by stopping this mini-blight. Cailan may or may not have also realized that for the good of the royal line, putting the only other known member of this bloodline in a safer place made for a good insurance policy as well. So maybe it was smart or maybe it was glory seeking or maybe it was both. It didn't signify to me that Cailan had serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at that time.
SusanStoHelit wrote...
Also consider this. If Cailan did decide to put Alistair where he would be available as heir - the Wardens is a very good choice...He's put him in a group of people who are very loyal to each other, who are skilled fighters, and who have connections in places all over Thedas - political and military.
Modifié par Sarielle, 04 février 2010 - 02:35 .
melkathi wrote...
Sarielle wrote...
errant_knight wrote...
Oooo! Just had a thought.... What if Duncan conscripted Alistair as a way to get him out of the Chantry before he took his vows and became addicted to Lyrium, putting him under Chantry control forever? Maybe at Cailan's request?
It's possible...Duncan's timing seemed pretty convenient, but then again he does seem to have impeccable timing for the PC as well. If Duncan WAS involved, though, he's certainly not abiding by the Grey Wardens' stance of neutrality.
Once you know who Alistair is, too...subsequent playthroughs make his "So he needs two Grey Wardens standing up there holding the torch?" a little more significant, because you know why Alistair thinks (rightfully, imo) that he's being deliberately kept out of the battle.
But if Cailan wanted Alistair safe, would the way to do that really be having him undergo the Joining?
Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 02:45 .
errant_knight wrote...
I don't think it's easy to get people away from the Chantry once they are almost a templar--they know things, have training that the Chantry wants to control. They weren't going to let Alistair go and Duncan was forced to conscript him. I suspect it was also because he was a king's son, and having him under Chantry control would have been a politically good thing. The grey wardens may have been the only ones who could get Alistair out.
Another sloppy post on my part. *sigh* I didn't mean I disagreed with your conclusion, just that I didn't think the Ferelden example of GW and politics should have much weight in evaluating GW behavior. I also should have added that based on the way Levi reacted to everything we learn in WK, it's always seemed unlikely to me that anyone would actually know what happened at WK or why the GWs were kicked out of Ferelden.errant_knight wrote...
Carodej wrote...
But the Ferelden GWs rebellion was a one time thing, and might well have never occurred if not for the fact that arlessa Sophia Dryden was sentenced to become a GW when she lost her bid for the throne. Sophia's drive and talent made her rise through the ranks to command the GWs, and with the King being the nasty piece of work that he was, well, the situation is pretty unique.
That might have been the impetus, but the other wardens went along with it, and in light of what the wardens of the Anderfels do, I don't think we can dismiss the idea entirely. Neutrality may be an ideal or political convenience rather than a rule. Besides, Cailen wouldn't have been asking Duncan to overthrow the government, he would have been asking hin to see if his brother was a suitable candidate. Since that was what Duncan was out there doing anyway, why not?
melkathi wrote...
errant_knight wrote...
I don't think it's easy to get people away from the Chantry once they are almost a templar--they know things, have training that the Chantry wants to control. They weren't going to let Alistair go and Duncan was forced to conscript him. I suspect it was also because he was a king's son, and having him under Chantry control would have been a politically good thing. The grey wardens may have been the only ones who could get Alistair out.
I always thought (and said it in another thread) that Alistair's being send to the Chantry had nothing to do with Isolde, but was Eamon's attempt to remove a possible thread to Cailan's rule. So Cailan would be undoing the safeguards put in place for his own safety.
I like it
melkathi wrote...
errant_knight wrote...
I don't think it's easy to get people away from the Chantry once they are almost a templar--they know things, have training that the Chantry wants to control. They weren't going to let Alistair go and Duncan was forced to conscript him. I suspect it was also because he was a king's son, and having him under Chantry control would have been a politically good thing. The grey wardens may have been the only ones who could get Alistair out.
I always thought (and said it in another thread) that Alistair's being send to the Chantry had nothing to do with Isolde, but was Eamon's attempt to remove a possible thread to Cailan's rule. So Cailan would be undoing the safeguards put in place for his own safety.
I like it {smilie}
draxynnus wrote...
One thing to note here...
What did "waiting" really entail? The Darkspawn came to Ostagar, after all, not the other way around, and presumably they would have had to have been fought as soon as they arrived regardless of whether or not Redcliffe or Orlesian forces were present...unless "wait until reinforcements arrive" was code for "pull back". It's possible that Cailan was putting up a show of bravado to explain his behaviour when his real concern is that he felt at least attempting to stop the Blight at Ostagar rather than it having the opportunity to rampage through the Bannorn until it could be stopped at some other fortress was worth the risk, even if he privately felt that there was the likelihood that he'd lose this one. His other preparations, such as inviting the Orlesian Grey Wardens and possibly conspiring with Duncan to invoke the Warden Treaties, are his way of ensuring that the Blight can still be stopped if the Battle of Ostagar is lost.
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
Anyway, tl;dr: Was Cailan's bravado really bravado, or was it a cover for caring about the people of Lothering and other settlements that would be exposed if Ostagar was abandoned, people which others such as Loghain would likely be all too willing to sacrifice?
Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 03:09 .
I just got back from replaying that part of RtO where we talk to Elric. While I still think my original interpretation is possible, I concede that yours is at least as likely if not more likely to be true.errant_knight wrote...
Carodej wrote...
Oops, I see I wasn't very clear about what I meant. We learned about Cailan's worry over the state of the battle from Elric. From how I interpreted RtO, I had the impression Elric learned this bit of infomation during the battle.
As for sending Alistair to the Tower of Ishal, I think that was mostly because Cailan didn't want his half brother - a potential rival for his throne (even if only as a figurehead) - to have a chance at the glory Cailan figured to get by stopping this mini-blight. Cailan may or may not have also realized that for the good of the royal line, putting the only other known member of this bloodline in a safer place made for a good insurance policy as well. So maybe it was smart or maybe it was glory seeking or maybe it was both. It didn't signify to me that Cailan had serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at that time.
Well, we don't know when the conversation with Elric took place, I have the definite impression it was before the battle, something Cailan was seeing to that he thought was important while he had the chance. During the battle, when Elric saw how things were going and should have collected the papers, was when he fled the field instead.
I also really don't see Cailan as petty or mean-spirited. He'd want every able fighter on the field, unless he had a greater purpose.
draxynnus wrote...
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
Anyway, tl;dr: Was Cailan's bravado really bravado, or was it a cover for caring about the people of Lothering and other settlements that would be exposed if Ostagar was abandoned, people which others such as Loghain would likely be all too willing to sacrifice?
)
Modifié par Sarielle, 04 février 2010 - 03:19 .
I've read this theory before. But I don't buy it, not if Cailan has brains. I think if Cailan had been with Loghain, then Loghain would have had a more difficult time walking away from the troops that were being sacrificed. Perhaps Ser Cauthrien would have obeyed Loghain over Cailan. Perhaps not. But with Cailan being king and with his charisma, I expect most of the troops would have followed him if he had been there and started a charge on the darkspawn's flank.draxynnus wrote...
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
Carodej wrote...
I just got back from replaying that part of RtO where we talk to Elric. While I still think my original interpretation is possible, I concede that yours is at least as likely if not more likely to be true.errant_knight wrote...
Carodej wrote...
Oops, I see I wasn't very clear about what I meant. We learned about Cailan's worry over the state of the battle from Elric. From how I interpreted RtO, I had the impression Elric learned this bit of infomation during the battle.
As for sending Alistair to the Tower of Ishal, I think that was mostly because Cailan didn't want his half brother - a potential rival for his throne (even if only as a figurehead) - to have a chance at the glory Cailan figured to get by stopping this mini-blight. Cailan may or may not have also realized that for the good of the royal line, putting the only other known member of this bloodline in a safer place made for a good insurance policy as well. So maybe it was smart or maybe it was glory seeking or maybe it was both. It didn't signify to me that Cailan had serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at that time.
Well, we don't know when the conversation with Elric took place, I have the definite impression it was before the battle, something Cailan was seeing to that he thought was important while he had the chance. During the battle, when Elric saw how things were going and should have collected the papers, was when he fled the field instead.
I also really don't see Cailan as petty or mean-spirited. He'd want every able fighter on the field, unless he had a greater purpose.
I don't think mean spirited and glory hog are really the same thing. But either way, if he had serious concerns and he wasn't a glory hound, why did he turn down waiting for Eamon's forces? If he was so concerned then about the outcome of the battle that he really should have had that extra man, wouldn't waiting for the additional troops have been much better?
draxynnus wrote...
One thing to note here...
What did "waiting" really entail? The Darkspawn came to Ostagar, after all, not the other way around, and presumably they would have had to have been fought as soon as they arrived regardless of whether or not Redcliffe or Orlesian forces were present...unless "wait until reinforcements arrive" was code for "pull back". It's possible that Cailan was putting up a show of bravado to explain his behaviour when his real concern is that he felt at least attempting to stop the Blight at Ostagar rather than it having the opportunity to rampage through the Bannorn until it could be stopped at some other fortress was worth the risk, even if he privately felt that there was the likelihood that he'd lose this one. His other preparations, such as inviting the Orlesian Grey Wardens and possibly conspiring with Duncan to invoke the Warden Treaties, are his way of ensuring that the Blight can still be stopped if the Battle of Ostagar is lost.
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
Anyway, tl;dr: Was Cailan's bravado really bravado, or was it a cover for caring about the people of Lothering and other settlements that would be exposed if Ostagar was abandoned, people which others such as Loghain would likely be all too willing to sacrifice?
Carodej wrote...
draxynnus wrote...
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
I've read this theory before. But I don't buy it, not if Cailan has brains. I think if Cailan had been with Loghain, then Loghain would have had a more difficult time walking away from the troops that were being sacrificed. Perhaps Ser Cauthrien would have obeyed Loghain over Cailan. Perhaps not. But with Cailan being king and with his charisma, I expect most of the troops would have followed him if he had been there and started a charge on the darkspawn's flank.
Tatooine92 wrote...
*reads all this* Wow. I will never, EVER look at Cailan the same way again. I always saw him as a carefree, goofy sort of guy. Now I'm seeing a clever young man whose nonchalant nature was a mere front to throw off Loghain.
Makes his death even more of a waste.
Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 03:30 .
It's certainly possible he miscalculated on that particular point, even knowing it was a gamble. Alternatively, however, he could have a) had an idea that Loghain might have a contingency plan to silence him if he was with the flank forces (a shouting match between an untried king and a famous general over whether or not to charge could have lead to enough confusion to ruin the plan even if the king won in the end) and/orCarodej wrote...
I've read this theory before. But I don't buy it, not if Cailan has brains. I think if Cailan had been with Loghain, then Loghain would have had a more difficult time walking away from the troops that were being sacrificed. Perhaps Ser Cauthrien would have obeyed Loghain over Cailan. Perhaps not. But with Cailan being king and with his charisma, I expect most of the troops would have followed him if he had been there and started a charge on the darkspawn's flank.draxynnus wrote...
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
felt that his presence with the first group to engage was necessary to keep their morale up.
Modifié par draxynnus, 04 février 2010 - 03:29 .
draxynnus wrote...
It's certainly possible he miscalculated on that particular point, even knowing it was a gamble. Alternatively, however, he could have a) had an idea that Loghain might have a contingency plan to silence him if he was with the flank forces (a shouting match between an untried king and a famous general over whether or not to charge could have lead to enough confusion to ruin the plan even if the king won in the end) and/orCarodej wrote...
I've read this theory before. But I don't buy it, not if Cailan has brains. I think if Cailan had been with Loghain, then Loghain would have had a more difficult time walking away from the troops that were being sacrificed. Perhaps Ser Cauthrien would have obeyed Loghain over Cailan. Perhaps not. But with Cailan being king and with his charisma, I expect most of the troops would have followed him if he had been there and started a charge on the darkspawn's flank.draxynnus wrote...
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
you guys. Civil arguments and excellent critical thinking. That's it, I'm friending all of you. I want to keep track of other threads you may start!
I really wish I had a detailed map of the terrain in that area. However, since I don't, all I can do is speculate.errant_knight wrote...
That was the initial question I posited at the beginning that we've gotten away from. Having put the Orlesians into play, having secretly negotiated the treaties because he thought it was important to have their aid, why wouldn't Cailan wait? What did he know?
I think we have to consider Draxynnus's excellent post:draxynnus wrote...
One thing to note here...
What did "waiting" really entail? The Darkspawn came to Ostagar, after all, not the other way around, and presumably they would have had to have been fought as soon as they arrived regardless of whether or not Redcliffe or Orlesian forces were present...unless "wait until reinforcements arrive" was code for "pull back". It's possible that Cailan was putting up a show of bravado to explain his behaviour when his real concern is that he felt at least attempting to stop the Blight at Ostagar rather than it having the opportunity to rampage through the Bannorn until it could be stopped at some other fortress was worth the risk, even if he privately felt that there was the likelihood that he'd lose this one. His other preparations, such as inviting the Orlesian Grey Wardens and possibly conspiring with Duncan to invoke the Warden Treaties, are his way of ensuring that the Blight can still be stopped if the Battle of Ostagar is lost.
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
Anyway, tl;dr: Was Cailan's bravado really bravado, or was it a cover for caring about the people of Lothering and other settlements that would be exposed if Ostagar was abandoned, people which others such as Loghain would likely be all too willing to sacrifice?
Perhaps, like Alistair leaving Lothering, Cailan found leaving the populace he ruled at the mercy of the darkspawn to be intolerable.
From everything they said, Ostagar was a place that was very easy to defend. I got the impression they could have easily held out even with odds greater than 10 to 1 against them. We don't know how easy it would be for the darkspawn to go around Ostagar. If it was easy to go around, then we don't know why the darkspawn would choose to take the path they did. While it seems improbable that the gorge is a natural choke point for a large radius around that point (but without a map, we don't know), but if it was, then just defening that should have been enough to halt the darkspawn.
Sarielle wrote...
I
Carodej wrote...
I really wish I had a detailed map of the terrain in that area. However, since I don't, all I can do is speculate.errant_knight wrote...
That was the initial question I posited at the beginning that we've gotten away from. Having put the Orlesians into play, having secretly negotiated the treaties because he thought it was important to have their aid, why wouldn't Cailan wait? What did he know?
I think we have to consider Draxynnus's excellent post:draxynnus wrote...
One thing to note here...
What did "waiting" really entail? The Darkspawn came to Ostagar, after all, not the other way around, and presumably they would have had to have been fought as soon as they arrived regardless of whether or not Redcliffe or Orlesian forces were present...unless "wait until reinforcements arrive" was code for "pull back". It's possible that Cailan was putting up a show of bravado to explain his behaviour when his real concern is that he felt at least attempting to stop the Blight at Ostagar rather than it having the opportunity to rampage through the Bannorn until it could be stopped at some other fortress was worth the risk, even if he privately felt that there was the likelihood that he'd lose this one. His other preparations, such as inviting the Orlesian Grey Wardens and possibly conspiring with Duncan to invoke the Warden Treaties, are his way of ensuring that the Blight can still be stopped if the Battle of Ostagar is lost.
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
Anyway, tl;dr: Was Cailan's bravado really bravado, or was it a cover for caring about the people of Lothering and other settlements that would be exposed if Ostagar was abandoned, people which others such as Loghain would likely be all too willing to sacrifice?
Perhaps, like Alistair leaving Lothering, Cailan found leaving the populace he ruled at the mercy of the darkspawn to be intolerable.
And that brings me to the utter lack of intelligence shown in the battle plan. Were there no rogues there to set traps? No one that could make shrapnel or other traps? No materials to make these traps? Knowing where the enemy would be marching, I would have laid my minefield, er traps, across their path.
If holding that gorge was key, why were there no defensive bulwarks built. I know the Ferelden troops are not a Roman army, but surely they could have done a lot with even a few hours of work. Why weren't there raised platforms for archers to fire from? (Not to mention why did the archers only fire one volley of arrows?)
Why are the best armored, and slowest troops, set up as the ones that will charge the flank? Why are the ligher armored and more maneuverable troops put into place where they should not be moving, but holding a defensive line? Why did Cailan's part of the troops run out to attack and lose any advantage they had of formation fighting? (If they charged, it should have been timed either with Loghain's attack, or after Loghain's attack had distracted the darkspawn.)
Why were there no mages casting fireballs or blizzard or whatever into the masses of darkspawn? Why were ballista inside the Tower of Ishall instead of outside where they could be used against the darkspawn.
It's really difficult to know what should be done here. I can easily see Cailan being willing to make a suicidal stand against the darkspawn to protect his people. It's perfectly in character for him. I can't see that at all from Loghain, and I can't see why there was no one there who had enough brains to make Loghain's "plan" more effective.
Was this really all carefully thought out by the devs? Or perhaps we're just projecting ourselves into flaws or holes in the game's design. This game is just too engaging.
I don't think it's avoidable in this kind of detailed discussion, though....
Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 04:03 .
He was right to doubt Loghain's loyalty, but soldiers have something of a tendency to follow orders. Insubordination is frowned on in most military.errant_knight wrote...
Carodej wrote...
draxynnus wrote...
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
I've read this theory before. But I don't buy it, not if Cailan has brains. I think if Cailan had been with Loghain, then Loghain would have had a more difficult time walking away from the troops that were being sacrificed. Perhaps Ser Cauthrien would have obeyed Loghain over Cailan. Perhaps not. But with Cailan being king and with his charisma, I expect most of the troops would have followed him if he had been there and started a charge on the darkspawn's flank.
I think Cailan doubted they would obey him, and it turns out that he was right to doubt their loyalty. At the same time, I think he made a misjudgement. He didn't think that Loghain, or his troops, would abandon the king to his death on the field of battle. He thought that would ensure their compliance. Sadly, he was wrong.
Anyway, Loghain was to give the orders, so if no one is there to question Loghain's orders - like Ser Cauthrien wanted to do - then the odds are the troops will just obey their orders. Since Cailan knew the problem would start with Loghain, I don't really think Cailan leaving Loghain alone in a position where Loghain could easily retreat from shows much sense on Cailan's part.Good points, but... a) if he really thought Loghain already had a contingency plan to silence him, then it seems quite foolish for Cailan to risk his life and those of his men on a man he trusted to so little.draxynnus wrote...
It's certainly possible he miscalculated on that particular point, even knowing it was a gamble. Alternatively, however, he could have a) had an idea that Loghain might have a contingency plan to silence him if he was with the flank forces (a shouting match between an untried king and a famous general over whether or not to charge could have lead to enough confusion to ruin the plan even if the king won in the end) and/orCarodej wrote...
I've read this theory before. But I don't buy it, not if Cailan has brains. I think if Cailan had been with Loghain, then Loghain would have had a more difficult time walking away from the troops that were being sacrificed. Perhaps Ser Cauthrien would have obeyed Loghain over Cailan. Perhaps not. But with Cailan being king and with his charisma, I expect most of the troops would have followed him if he had been there and started a charge on the darkspawn's flank.draxynnus wrote...
Putting himself on the front line was essentially a political move - he was hoping that putting the king of Ferelden in danger would force Loghain to commit, and was gambling that if things went sour he at least might be able to withdraw with the aid of Loghain's distraction. Of course, neither of those worked out in the end...
you could very well be right. Cailan was certainly an inspiration to the men, and there was a lot of muttering in the troops about the darkspawn. The only way I see around this really, assuming it was the problem, is that the position of the troops really should have been reversed in the first place. The more military bearing of Loghain's troops make me think that they probably would not have as much of a concern from some soldiers having lower moral. Plus their armor really was appropriate for troops that should have been positioned to hold the line. But yeah, it is possible that moral was too poor in that section for Cailan to have been goading on Loghain's troops.
I do agree with you on all points.errant_knight wrote...
You bring up some excellent points, but in terms of the battle, I think we have to assume that there was more to it than we're shown. Being a game, there are limited resources, and limited time for detailed cutscenes. They showed us what was important to the plot--Loghain pulled his troops back, leaving the men and women on the field to die. In a movie, I'd expect to see more preparations, to see more details, but in a game, I think we have to use our imaginations to an extent, and assume that there was good planning. I think that's partly why Duncan tells us it's a good plan.
We also can't know what we're reading into this, and what was truth--not even what will turn up in DLC/expansions to provide more details, but we do know that Cailan negotiated difficult treaties, apparently in secret. That alone tells us that there was more to the man than initially shown. It's not so much that there is only the one piece of information either. There are innumerable small facts and coincidences that just don't make sense unless they tie together somehow. I don't think it can be accidental. And you're right about how engaging the game is!
All this quoting is getting a little out of hand, isn't it?
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