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[errant_knight]

Carodej wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

You bring up some excellent points, but in terms of the battle, I think we have to assume that there was more to it than we're shown. Being a game, there are limited resources, and limited time for detailed cutscenes. They showed us what was important to the plot--Loghain pulled his troops back, leaving the men and women on the field to die. In a movie, I'd expect to see more preparations, to see more details, but in a game, I think we have to use our imaginations to an extent, and assume that there was good planning. I think that's partly why Duncan tells us it's a good plan.

We also can't know what we're reading into this, and what was truth--not even what will turn up in DLC/expansions to provide more details, but we do know that Cailan negotiated difficult treaties, apparently in secret. That alone tells us that there was more to the man than initially shown. It's not so much that there is only the one piece of information either. There are innumerable small facts and coincidences that just don't make sense unless they tie together somehow. I don't think it can be accidental. And you're right about how engaging the game is!

All this quoting is getting a little out of hand, isn't it? I don't think it's avoidable in this kind of detailed discussion, though....

I do agree with you on all points. 

But despite the time and cost involved, I really do think they should have shown more - or said more somewhere, even in just a codex - to show that intelligent planning had actually gone into this battle.  The way it's displayed really makes it easier to think that Loghain's main intention was always to leave, even if the intention was more a subconscious thing than a conscious one.

Also, my comments about putting the more heavily armored forces of Loghain in the position of the anvil may be partly negated by the limited time and resources they had for the game.  By that I mean the lack of a horse model may make a great difference.  If Loghain's troops we saw were actually mounted knights instead of just heavily armored soldiers, it makes a lot more sense that those troops would be positioned to make a flank attack.  But since those budget, time, etc. constraints cut horse models from the game, we're left not really knowing.

Maybe they don't want us to know some of these things on purpose in the interest of storytelling? Because they don't want us to be able to draw firm conclusions about who was in the right at Ostagar?

EDIT: We also, as much as we might be drawn into the situation, have to remember that this is a story that demands that Cailan die. From a writing perspective, it's much more tragic if the heroic young king dies at the hands of darkspawn as Loghain's troops abandon him, than if he gets stabbed by one of Loghain's men while arguing, or trips and impales himself while running toward the field in a doomed attempt to rally Loghain's troops.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 04:59 .

[Seymour_North]

melkathi wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I don't think it's easy to get people away from the Chantry once they are almost a templar--they know things, have training that the Chantry wants to control. They weren't going to let Alistair go and Duncan was forced to conscript him. I suspect it was also because he was a king's son, and having him under Chantry control would have been a politically good thing. The grey wardens may have been the only ones who could get Alistair out.

I always thought (and said it in another thread) that Alistair's being send to the Chantry had nothing to do with Isolde, but was Eamon's attempt to remove a possible thread to Cailan's rule. So Cailan would be undoing the safeguards put in place for his own safety.
I like it

Yes--that would be *just* like the reckless Cailan who epically failed to impress me!

OTOH...

I'd always assumed that Cailan didn't know about Alistair.  Maybe I got that impression from Alistair himself...but of course, what Alistair doesn't know fills volumes. Even if Alistair's parentage was a need-to-know thing, it's quite possible that someone thought Cailan needed to know without thinking Alistair needed to know Cailan knew....

Cailan does specify Alistair (who is not at the War Council) by name for the beacon, but I'd always assumed that he just knew Alistair's name because C was spending so much time with Duncan, who seemed to have designated Alistair as his aide and dogsbody.

Hmmm.....

Modifié par Seymour_North, 04 février 2010 - 05:10 .

[Carodej]

errant_knight wrote...

Maybe they don't want us to know some of these things on purpose in the interest of storytelling? Because they don't want us to be able to draw firm conclusions about who was in the right at Ostagar?

EDIT: We also, as much as we might be drawn into the situation, have to remember that this is a story that demands that Cailan die. From a writing perspective, it's much more tragic if the heroic young king dies at the hands of darkspawn as Loghain's troops abandon him, than if he gets stabbed by one of Loghain's men while arguing, or trips and impales himself while running toward the field in a doomed attempt to rally Loghain's troops.

Yes, sometimes it is better to leave things so an individual can draw their own conclusions and fill in the blanks, so to speak.  Plus these things leave them room to maneuver in sequels, expansions, and the like.

As for what you added in the edit, I have to agree here as well.  I recall thinking that very thing on a few occasions while playing the game.  Just like there are times I figured for sure it was a money/time/priority reasoning why some things were done a certain way.  But as long as they all seem fairly reasonable, it's OK with me.  And they sure did put out a story I am enjoying.

[errant_knight]

Seymour_North wrote...

melkathi wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I don't think it's easy to get people away from the Chantry once they are almost a templar--they know things, have training that the Chantry wants to control. They weren't going to let Alistair go and Duncan was forced to conscript him. I suspect it was also because he was a king's son, and having him under Chantry control would have been a politically good thing. The grey wardens may have been the only ones who could get Alistair out.

I always thought (and said it in another thread) that Alistair's being send to the Chantry had nothing to do with Isolde, but was Eamon's attempt to remove a possible thread to Cailan's rule. So Cailan would be undoing the safeguards put in place for his own safety.
I like it

Yes--that would be *just* like the reckless Cailan who epically failed to impress me!

The intent would have been to keep Alistair from attempting to claim the throne from Cailan's heirs in the event of his death. If he decided to make Alistair his heir in the absence of children of his own, then there is no threat. The safeguards are no longer necessary. Not that there was a threat, anyway. Eamon did entirely too good a job of convincing Alistair that he could never be king.

[SwordsmanofShadow]

I find it very interesting that Loghain when questioned by Wynn during RTO says that, while knowing everything he does now, he would still have abandoned Cailen. That speaks VOLUMES. That means he would know the Orlesians aren't a real threat, the Grey Wardens aren't what he thinks them to be, and he would still do it. Mind you, this is before he finds out about the three letters Cailen's chest.



I like to think that there was some politicking going on behind the scenes for some time, even before the darkspawn showed themselves.



It could be possible that Loghain liked how Anora was running the show in Ferelden, and didn't like Cailen shaking the boat. During the game, he quickly points to Anora as the defacto ruler. Perhaps that was his dream: Anora has an heir, Cailen is removed, and Anora rules until the Loghain influenced child takes the throne.



Theory: We know from the Calling that the Grey Wardens knew that a Blight was likely to hit Ferelden some time soon. And Duncan was in Ferelden for some time, at least ten years. Could it be possible that the treaties with Celene where about securing aid for the coming Blight? Like several years before Ostagar, discussions where made to secure a proper defense against the Blight before it even started.

[errant_knight]

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...

I find it very interesting that Loghain when questioned by Wynn during RTO says that, while knowing everything he does now, he would still have abandoned Cailen. That speaks VOLUMES. That means he would know the Orlesians aren't a real threat, the Grey Wardens aren't what he thinks them to be, and he would still do it. Mind you, this is before he finds out about the three letters Cailen's chest.

I like to think that there was some politicking going on behind the scenes for some time, even before the darkspawn showed themselves.

It could be possible that Loghain liked how Anora was running the show in Ferelden, and didn't like Cailen shaking the boat. During the game, he quickly points to Anora as the defacto ruler. Perhaps that was his dream: Anora has an heir, Cailen is removed, and Anora rules until the Loghain influenced child takes the throne.

Theory: We know from the Calling that the Grey Wardens knew that a Blight was likely to hit Ferelden some time soon. And Duncan was in Ferelden for some time, at least ten years. Could it be possible that the treaties with Celene where about securing aid for the coming Blight? Like several years before Ostagar, discussions where made to secure a proper defense against the Blight before it even started.

I agree that there had probably been a lot of political manuvering going on before these events. Loghain sent Jowan to poison Eamon well before Ostagar.

I took the treaties, and Alistairs comments to mean that Cailan knew that to secure aid, there would have to be a secure framework for a lasting peace. As ruler of Fereldan, he probably wanted the treaties in place before Orleisian troops crossed the border, both to protect the sovereignty of Fereldan, and to reassure the populace. I figured that the negotiations took place in the preceeding months--year at the most, though. While Duncan may have suspected a blight before that, I don't think he would have been sure enough to prompty that kind of negotiation. All speculation, of course!

[zeph89]

I truly enjoyed reading all your points of view behind Cailan and I think this is a very interesting discussion. (Is there anything more exciting than not truly knowing the motivations behind one key character in such a well weaved plot? Hehe ^^) However, I can't give so much credit to Cailan to the point of some of you who discussed here.



What if Cailan was just trying to prove himself to Empress Celene in those battles at Ostagar? Or even to his own kingdom? Perhaps he simply thought that by winning them bravely he could assure his power as king, preparing his people to the decision of allying with Orlais.



Many players thought that the Codex entries at RTO pretty confirmed a possible affair between Celene and Cailan, or at least some kind of intimate relationship with the knowledge that Cailan didn't like the delay on their meeting (crumbled paper on part 3). That would explain why he didn't wish to talk about the issue of the heir to Eamon, also assuming that he would oppose Cailan marrying her, since it's obvious where it would lead. After all, Eamon was part of the rebellion during the orlesian occupation, wasn't he? I think I don't even need to mention Loghain ideas to such a thing.



Maybe the only way he thought to pull it off was leading the army against the horde of darkspawn with the Wardens, against Loghain's best judgment, winning it and becoming a hero. Not that's particularly clever, but how could he win Ferelden's favor otherwise? His wife was ruling his kingdom, Loghain was commanding his armies, he was a shadow of his own father, Maric, and not very smart. Worse, every bartender knew that.



There's also the issue of him being unsure of getting out of the battle alive and leaving the key to Elric. Well, maybe he didn't truly think he would die there or didn't even care. As long as neither the nobility nor especially Loghain found out about what he was truly thinking, of course. And here enter the Grey Wardens, the impartial party with good connections with Orlais.



Well, he kinda pulled it off. He became a martyr and *maybe* Celene is impressed. Well done, Cailan! x)



And I'm truly sorry for my lame english. I did my best, I swear. ;_;

[SwordsmanofShadow]

I think the Grey Wrdens where more then a little suspicious that a Blight was eminent.



*SPOILERS FOR THE CALLING*











They know that the Architect- an emissary- had the location of the remaining Old Gods. If not Fereldan, they had to know a Blight had a high probability of striking somewhere soon. Duncan debriefed the rest of the Wardens in the Anderfels.

[Carodej]

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...
I find it very interesting that Loghain when questioned by Wynn during RTO says that, while knowing everything he does now, he would still have abandoned Cailen. That speaks VOLUMES. That means he would know the Orlesians aren't a real threat, the Grey Wardens aren't what he thinks them to be, and he would still do it. Mind you, this is before he finds out about the three letters Cailen's chest.

After reading the books and learning about Loghain's mother, then combine that with the rest of childhood, top it all off by adding what how Loghain tricked/goaded Maric into killing Katriel then sending Rowan to Maric - yeah, I have no doubt he'd do the same again.  Despite how it may look to many, he has no real love of Ferelden.  What he has is hate for Orlais.  Doing good for Ferelden just happened to be a good way to get back at Orlais and won Loghain a lot of hero worship.

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...
I like to think that there was some politicking going on behind the scenes for some time, even before the darkspawn showed themselves.

Maybe, maybe not.  It wouldn't be surprising either way.  Still, I'd think a shorter time frame might be more likely as the longer the secret negotiations had been going on, the longer Loghain's spies would have had a chance to find out about it.

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...
It could be possible that Loghain liked how Anora was running the show in Ferelden, and didn't like Cailen shaking the boat. During the game, he quickly points to Anora as the defacto ruler. Perhaps that was his dream: Anora has an heir, Cailen is removed, and Anora rules until the Loghain influenced child takes the throne.

Possible, but I personally doubt this.  Loghain didn't seem to ever dream or aspire to ruling.  Loghain just always thought he knew better than anyone else.  Of course he no doubt could see the advantage of his ruling Ferelden would allow him to handle Orlais with a freer hand.

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...
Theory: We know from the Calling that the Grey Wardens knew that a Blight was likely to hit Ferelden some time soon. And Duncan was in Ferelden for some time, at least ten years. Could it be possible that the treaties with Celene where about securing aid for the coming Blight? Like several years before Ostagar, discussions where made to secure a proper defense against the Blight before it even started.

The first codex entry in the note section is from RtO and was Celene I writing about a permanent alliance and that their personal meeting and further discussion of this must be delayed due to the Blight.  So I doubt the treaties being discussed were Blight related.  Most likely a marriage of some sort, as that seems a traditional way to make an alliance in feudal societies.

While it's a popular theory on these boards that Cailan was planning on dumping Anora to marry Celene I, there is no evidence of this.  In fact, Cailan resists the urging of arl Eamon to put aside Anora in the interests of begetting a royal heir.  Of course Cailan could have been hiding things from Eamon.  Or it's possible that they might have been considering pledging their unborn children to be married.  Or then again, maybe something else altogether.  There is really no detail in RtO or the OC to tell us what was being contemplated.

[SwordsmanofShadow]

@ Carodej:



I never said he aspired to rule. I think it was always his intention to leave Anora on the throne. What I was proposing was that he was waiting for her to get pregnant with Cailens heir, so he could remove the king and raise the child the way he wanted: ie. an Orlais hating king.



I believe he truly loves Fereldan, and was planning on killing Cailen long before Ostagar. That battle just gave him a quick 'clean' way to do it, and pin it on the Wardens to boot.

[Carodej]

zeph89 wrote...

I truly enjoyed reading all your points of view behind Cailan and I think this is a very interesting discussion. (Is there anything more exciting than not truly knowing the motivations behind one key character in such a well weaved plot? Hehe ^^) However, I can't give so much credit to Cailan to the point of some of you who discussed here.

What if Cailan was just trying to prove himself to Empress Celene in those battles at Ostagar? Or even to his own kingdom? Perhaps he simply thought that by winning them bravely he could assure his power as king, preparing his people to the decision of allying with Orlais.

Many players thought that the Codex entries at RTO pretty confirmed a possible affair between Celene and Cailan, or at least some kind of intimate relationship with the knowledge that Cailan didn't like the delay on their meeting (crumbled paper on part 3). That would explain why he didn't wish to talk about the issue of the heir to Eamon, also assuming that he would oppose Cailan marrying her, since it's obvious where it would lead. After all, Eamon was part of the rebellion during the orlesian occupation, wasn't he? I think I don't even need to mention Loghain ideas to such a thing.

Maybe the only way he thought to pull it off was leading the army against the horde of darkspawn with the Wardens, against Loghain's best judgment, winning it and becoming a hero. Not that's particularly clever, but how could he win Ferelden's favor otherwise? His wife was ruling his kingdom, Loghain was commanding his armies, he was a shadow of his own father, Maric, and not very smart. Worse, every bartender knew that.

There's also the issue of him being unsure of getting out of the battle alive and leaving the key to Elric. Well, maybe he didn't truly think he would die there or didn't even care. As long as neither the nobility nor especially Loghain found out about what he was truly thinking, of course. And here enter the Grey Wardens, the impartial party with good connections with Orlais.

Well, he kinda pulled it off. He became a martyr and *maybe* Celene is impressed. Well done, Cailan! x)

And I'm truly sorry for my lame english. I did my best, I swear. ;_;

Well, I have always maintained Cailan was a glory hound and acted like a fool because of it (like Loghain's Orlesian paranoid delusions made Loghain act the fool).  But the mere fact that he had secret negotiations with Empress Celene I indicates that there is more to Cailan than meets the eye.  It still doesn't make him out as especially bright though, as Celene is supposed to be the DA:O world's equivalent of our Catherine the Great.  Her reputation combined with the power of Orlais really should have made Cailan realize that he'd likely to come out on the short end of any negotiation between them.

[Thor Rand Al]

Carodej wrote...
As for sending Alistair to the Tower of Ishal, I think that was mostly because Cailan didn't want his half brother - a potential rival for his throne (even if only as a figurehead) - to have a chance at the glory Cailan figured to get by stopping this mini-blight.  Cailan may or may not have also realized that for the good of the royal line, putting the only other known member of this bloodline in a safer place made for a good insurance policy as well.  So maybe it was smart or maybe it was glory seeking or maybe it was both.  It didn't signify to me that Cailan had serious doubts about the outcome of the battle at that time.

I've always had doubts about why Cailan sends Alistair n yes I thought maybe because of the glory thing but it wouldn't stick with me... I think Cailan used the glory thing to cover up his true feelings... Maybe at first it was about glory but somewhere down the line he got some bad "vibes" so to speak n when it came down to that beacon being lit Cailan saw a way that if he failed that at least Alistair would carry on the family blood line... There always seemed another reason especially if you tell Cailan that if it's not that dangerous I can go alone... If he really was bothered about Alistair being around why not stick him with the main army... Good chance that Alistair would probably die... 

Now that RTO's came out I've got a better understandin of Cailan... Cailan sent Alistair to the becon to ensure that if Cailan was to die that the Therin blood line still continued on if the pc so choose to keep it going... Cailan knew there was a possibility that there were goin to be problems, he wasn't just an airhead with glory on his mind... I have a feeling maybe Duncan might of helped him with that too... I just wish we knew more about what Cailan was thinking lol... But we have a pretty good idea here

[Kaiousei]

Carodej

I really wish I had a detailed map of the terrain in that area.  However, since I don't, all I can do is speculate.    From everything they said, Ostagar was a place that was very easy to defend.  I got the impression they could have easily held out even with odds greater than 10 to 1 against them.  We don't know how easy it would be for the darkspawn to go around Ostagar.  If it was easy to go around, then we don't know why the darkspawn would choose to take the path they did.  While it seems improbable that the gorge is a natural choke point for a large radius around that point (but without a map, we don't know), but if it was, then just defening that should have been enough to halt the darkspawn.

This analysis is mostly correct, I think.  It is repeatedly mentioned that Ostagar was highly defensible and that it was built by the Tevinter Imperium to control that region.  I doubt such a large structure would've been built if it wasn't an important pass to accessing Fereldan.

And that brings me to the utter lack of intelligence shown in the battle plan.  Were there no rogues there to set traps?  No one that could make shrapnel or other traps?  No materials to make these traps?  Knowing where the enemy would be marching, I would have laid my minefield, er traps, across their path.

The problem with traps and minefields is that, someday, you might wish to advance across that line.  You can't, however, if you have to spend days or hours taking down your traps.

Even worse, the trap field will act like a river separating you from your enemy.  While you are undoing the traps, they can harrass you with archer fire (and magic in the DAO world) and destroy the people you send to clear the field.  They can then build up on their side of it until they feel ready to attack you while simultaneously disabling the traps.  We already know the darkspawn outnumbered the Feraldan forces and were growing even larger by the day.  It's highly debatable whether the Feraldans could've won a skirmishing war with the darkspawn across a field of traps.  Even with Orlesian support they'd have problems as the Orlesians were mostly sending chevaliers, which are heavily armored units built for melee combat, not ranged.  It's unknown how many ranged forces would be sent.

If holding that gorge was key, why were there no defensive bulwarks built.  I know the Ferelden troops are not a Roman army, but surely they could have done a lot with even a few hours of work.  Why weren't there raised platforms for archers to fire from?  (Not to mention why did the archers only fire one volley of arrows?)

There is no need for raised platforms when you have an enormous wall to stand on.  While the only archers we saw were on the ground, that doesn't mean there were none on the walls.  Furthermore, the archers would not have much time to launch volleys into the darkspawn because they'd risk hitting their own soldiers once the battle was joined.  The darkspawn wern't advancing in formation, but were instead functioning as a scattered horde.  The only real point they had a large gathering was when they engaged Feraldan forces.  Archers arn't as effective against a loose formation and they wouldn't want to risk hitting their own friends once the battle was joined.

Why are the best armored, and slowest troops, set up as the ones that will charge the flank?  Why are the ligher armored and more maneuverable troops put into place where they should not be moving, but holding a defensive line?

It's called shock value.  The goal wasn't to harrass the darkspawn forces with a mobile unit, but to go deep into the body of their army and rip it up.  For that purpose you need the heavier forces to carry the momentum.  The better question is why they wern't on horseback (which is more typical of that kind of strategy), but I'd chock that one up to the game engine not supporting mounted combat .

The mobile units were involved with holding a line because there really wasn't another effective role for them to play.  In addition, under a Feudal setting you don't really mix and match forces from different lords.  Cailan's men are Cailen's men and Loghain's men are Loghain's men.  Cailan was supposed to hold the gate, Loghain was supposed to counter charge.  They wouldn't swap out units to compensate for equipment discrepencies.

Why did Cailan's part of the troops run out to attack and lose any advantage they had of formation fighting?  (If they charged, it should have been timed either with Loghain's attack, or after Loghain's attack had distracted the darkspawn.)

Actually, they should definitely have engaged BEFORE Loghain's forces did, otherwise the darkspawn are going to curl up into a tortoise formation and then use their greater numbers to surround the entire Feraldan army.

As to why Cailan's men charged, it was most likely because they weren't highly drilled, super disciplined forces nor was Cailan a highly trained general from what we know.  Basic training may be part of a noble upbringing, and stories of his father's exploits probably contributed as well, but Cailan was impetuous and inexperienced.  It's not unreasonable to think that he and his lieutenants would find a charge appropriate.

Why were there no mages casting fireballs or blizzard or whatever into the masses of darkspawn?  Why were ballista inside the Tower of Ishall instead of outside where they could be used against the darkspawn.

The ballistas seemed ground into their positions I think, so you couldn't really move them.  As for the mages, AoE spells seem to be very rare (aside from fireball, but that would run into the same problem as the archers did, see above).  Wynne is supposed to be one of the best mages in the circle and she's barely experienced enough to even have the option of knowing a mass AoE spell.  The other mages, arguably, just didn't know that level of magic.

draxynnus wrote...

One thing to note here...

What did "waiting" really entail? The Darkspawn came to Ostagar, after all, not the other way around, and presumably they would have had to have been fought as soon as they arrived regardless of whether or not Redcliffe or Orlesian forces were present...unless "wait until reinforcements arrive" was code for "pull back". It's possible that Cailan was putting up a show of bravado to explain his behaviour when his real concern is that he felt at least attempting to stop the Blight at Ostagar rather than it having the opportunity to rampage through the Bannorn until it could be stopped at some other fortress was worth the risk, even if he privately felt that there was the likelihood that he'd lose this one. His other preparations, such as inviting the Orlesian Grey Wardens and possibly conspiring with Duncan to invoke the Warden Treaties, are his way of ensuring that the Blight can still be stopped if the Battle of Ostagar is lost.

This is the basic gist of it I think.  They couldn't really wait without withdrawing.  Withdrawing meant letting areas like Lothering potentially fall to the darkspawn.  We know from Duncan that Redridge, which is much closer than Orlais, would take a week to reach Ostagar.  It was either hold there or pull back for a better position at the cost of others.  His attitude about the upcoming battle is best explained by Wynne at camp where she comments the he has to be that way as his attitude effects all of the soldiers present.  Her only hesitation is that Cailan finds his enthusiasm a little too easily sometimes, which can be explained by his impetuous, headstrong character.

Modifié par Kaiousei, 04 février 2010 - 06:40 .

[zeph89]

Carodej wrote...
Her reputation combined with the power of Orlais really should have made Cailan realize that he'd likely to come out on the short end of any negotiation between them.

But it didn’t, for some reason. Which I would like to know, as well as the purpose that made him secretly contact or even meet her. The chances are he was being used, surely, but how did that work out? Did Cailan actually travelled to Val Royaux to meet her, or the opposite? There is much we don’t know, honestly.

Modifié par zeph89, 04 février 2010 - 06:41 .

[Carodej]

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...
@ Carodej:

I never said he aspired to rule. I think it was always his intention to leave Anora on the throne. What I was proposing was that he was waiting for her to get pregnant with Cailens heir, so he could remove the king and raise the child the way he wanted: ie. an Orlais hating king.

Oops, you're right, that's not what you said.  It's just that in the game Loghain does decide to take over and become regent, even declaring himself king (or at least so his envoy to the dwarves called him).  Even though he left Anora on the throne (sort of, as allowing Howe to take her prisoner...sigh...this is a whole other discussion).  Still, it's hard to say if he'd really try to raise a new Ferelden heir that way.  His Orlesian paranoia is not obviously displayed by Anora, at any rate.

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...
I believe he truly loves Fereldan, and was planning on killing Cailen long before Ostagar. That battle just gave him a quick 'clean' way to do it, and pin it on the Wardens to boot.

Nothing in the books or the game show him a patriot.  When the Orlesian tax collectors came one day, he family couldn't afford the taxes.  They knocked out his father and raped and killed his mother before his very eyes.  Loghain is not a people person, he is very self centered and survival oriented.  He shows little caring for any others.  Instead of defending the country against darkspawn, he lets it be ravaged - just so he can have his forces intact to prevent a suspected Orlesian invasion!  He sells his own citizens into slavery so that he can finance his army to fight in the civil war that he started.  Loghain may have been planning on killing Cailan long before Ostagar, but Loghain has no love of Ferelden, merely hatred of Orlais.

[SusanStoHelit]

I think Cailan definitely was young and impetuous and yes, perhaps foolish. But as Sten once commented to all our pcs, perhaps Cailan wasn't as callow as we first thought. :-)

[SusanStoHelit]

Carodej wrote...

Nothing in the books or the game show him a patriot.  When the Orlesian tax collectors came one day, he family couldn't afford the taxes.  They knocked out his father and raped and killed his mother before his very eyes.  Loghain is not a people person, he is very self centered and survival oriented.  He shows little caring for any others.  Instead of defending the country against darkspawn, he lets it be ravaged - just so he can have his forces intact to prevent a suspected Orlesian invasion!  He sells his own citizens into slavery so that he can finance his army to fight in the civil war that he started.  Loghain may have been planning on killing Cailan long before Ostagar, but Loghain has no love of Ferelden, merely hatred of Orlais.

I believe I've said something similar before. Loghain cares nothing about the survival of Ferelden, or the survival of it's citizens. He only cares that they are independent from Orlais. I, personally, would rather be an Orlesian lackey (temporarily, while planning my rebellion) than be consumed as darkspawn munchies - or turned into a broodmother. There's no rebellion against that. Loghain as a patriot = Epic Fail.

[Carodej]

Kaiousei wrote...

Carodej

I really wish I had a detailed map of the terrain in that area.  However, since I don't, all I can do is speculate.    From everything they said, Ostagar was a place that was very easy to defend.  I got the impression they could have easily held out even with odds greater than 10 to 1 against them.  We don't know how easy it would be for the darkspawn to go around Ostagar.  If it was easy to go around, then we don't know why the darkspawn would choose to take the path they did.  While it seems improbable that the gorge is a natural choke point for a large radius around that point (but without a map, we don't know), but if it was, then just defening that should have been enough to halt the darkspawn.

This analysis is mostly correct, I think.  It is repeatedly mentioned that Ostagar was highly defensible and that it was built by the Tevinter Imperium to control that region.  I doubt such a large structure would've been built if it wasn't an important pass to accessing Fereldan.

And that brings me to the utter lack of intelligence shown in the battle plan.  Were there no rogues there to set traps?  No one that could make shrapnel or other traps?  No materials to make these traps?  Knowing where the enemy would be marching, I would have laid my minefield, er traps, across their path.

The problem with traps and minefields is that, someday, you might wish to advance across that line.  You can't, however, if you have to spend days or hours taking down your traps.

Even worse, the trap field will act like a river separating you from your enemy.  While you are undoing the traps, they can harrass you with archer fire (and magic in the DAO world) and destroy the people you send to clear the field.  They can then build up on their side of it until they feel ready to attack you while simultaneously disabling the traps.  We already know the darkspawn outnumbered the Feraldan forces and were growing even larger by the day.  It's highly debatable whether the Feraldans could've won a skirmishing war with the darkspawn across a field of traps.  Even with Orlesian support they'd have problems as the Orlesians were mostly sending chevaliers, which are heavily armored units built for melee combat, not ranged.  It's unknown how many ranged forces would be sent.

If holding that gorge was key, why were there no defensive bulwarks built.  I know the Ferelden troops are not a Roman army, but surely they could have done a lot with even a few hours of work.  Why weren't there raised platforms for archers to fire from?  (Not to mention why did the archers only fire one volley of arrows?)

There is no need for raised platforms when you have an enormous wall to stand on.  While the only archers we saw were on the ground, that doesn't mean there were none on the walls.  Furthermore, the archers would not have much time to launch volleys into the darkspawn because they'd risk hitting their own soldiers once the battle was joined.  The darkspawn wern't advancing in formation, but were instead functioning as a scattered horde.  The only real point they had a large gathering was when they engaged Feraldan forces.  Archers arn't as effective against a loose formation and they wouldn't want to risk hitting their own friends once the battle was joined.

Why are the best armored, and slowest troops, set up as the ones that will charge the flank?  Why are the ligher armored and more maneuverable troops put into place where they should not be moving, but holding a defensive line?

It's called shock value.  The goal wasn't to harrass the darkspawn forces with a mobile unit, but to go deep into the body of their army and rip it up.  For that purpose you need the heavier forces to carry the momentum.  The better question is why they wern't on horseback (which is more typical of that kind of strategy), but I'd chock that one up to the game engine not supporting mounted combat .

The mobile units were involved with holding a line because there really wasn't another effective role for them to play.  In addition, under a Feudal setting you don't really mix and match forces from different lords.  Cailan's men are Cailen's men and Loghain's men are Loghain's men.  Cailan was supposed to hold the gate, Loghain was supposed to counter charge.  They wouldn't swap out units to compensate for equipment discrepencies.

Why did Cailan's part of the troops run out to attack and lose any advantage they had of formation fighting?  (If they charged, it should have been timed either with Loghain's attack, or after Loghain's attack had distracted the darkspawn.)

Actually, they should definitely have engaged BEFORE Loghain's forces did, otherwise the darkspawn are going to curl up into a tortoise formation and then use their greater numbers to surround the entire Feraldan army.

As to why Cailan's men charged, it was most likely because they weren't highly drilled, super disciplined forces nor was Cailan a highly trained general from what we know.  Basic training may be part of a noble upbringing, and stories of his father's exploits probably contributed as well, but Cailan was impetuous and inexperienced.  It's not unreasonable to think that he and his lieutenants would find a charge appropriate.

Why were there no mages casting fireballs or blizzard or whatever into the masses of darkspawn?  Why were ballista inside the Tower of Ishall instead of outside where they could be used against the darkspawn.

The ballistas seemed ground into their positions I think, so you couldn't really move them.  As for the mages, AoE spells seem to be very rare (aside from fireball, but that would run into the same problem as the archers did, see above).  Wynne is supposed to be one of the best mages in the circle and she's barely experienced enough to even have the option of knowing a mass AoE spell.  The other mages, arguably, just didn't know that level of magic.

draxynnus wrote...

One thing to note here...

What did "waiting" really entail? The Darkspawn came to Ostagar, after all, not the other way around, and presumably they would have had to have been fought as soon as they arrived regardless of whether or not Redcliffe or Orlesian forces were present...unless "wait until reinforcements arrive" was code for "pull back". It's possible that Cailan was putting up a show of bravado to explain his behaviour when his real concern is that he felt at least attempting to stop the Blight at Ostagar rather than it having the opportunity to rampage through the Bannorn until it could be stopped at some other fortress was worth the risk, even if he privately felt that there was the likelihood that he'd lose this one. His other preparations, such as inviting the Orlesian Grey Wardens and possibly conspiring with Duncan to invoke the Warden Treaties, are his way of ensuring that the Blight can still be stopped if the Battle of Ostagar is lost.

This is the basic gist of it I think.  They couldn't really wait without withdrawing.  Withdrawing meant letting areas like Lothering potentially fall to the darkspawn.  We know from Duncan that Redridge, which is much closer than Orlais, would take a week to reach Ostagar.  It was either hold there or pull back for a better position at the cost of others.  His attitude about the upcoming battle is best explained by Wynne at camp where she comments the he has to be that way as his attitude effects all of the soldiers present.  Her only hesitation is that Cailan finds his enthusiasm a little too easily sometimes, which can be explained by his impetuous, headstrong character.

These long posts and multiple quotes can get messing.  At any rate...

About the traps, I am not sure exactly what you mean.  If they are acting as a "river" between Cailan's forces and the darkspawn, it bottles up the darkspawn and prevents their advance even if it doesn't set up the desired flanking opportunity.  But while darkspawn have brains, they don't seem to have a high degree of self preservation (how many times have you seen them retreat from a battle they are losing in either the book or games - I can recall only one time).  So I expect that the darkspawn would charge across the traps and ignore their casualties.  Considering their numbers, if this was indeed the case, and unless one laid a huge number of traps, I don't think there would be many traps left to give friendly fire to the flanking Ferelden forces.

I looked on the walls and didn't see archers there.  I did see archers on the bridge over the gorge.  I wondered why more were not stationed up top.  However, since Cailan's troops did include archers with him, they should have been made useful by giving them a defended position that was elevated to give them a view that would allow them to shoot past the front line and into the reserves of the enemy.  The darkspawn horde were fairly thickly packed.  While kills might have been assured, much damage could still have been done.

The Ferelden forces should not have attacked since they had the inferior numbers.  The enemy was eager to come at them.  If the Ferelden forces remained in place, they would not have suffered the disadvantage of fighting 2 or 3 against 1.  This would also make it easier for the archers to continue to cause more casualties among the darkspawn. 

I guess we both agree that if the heavy armored forces of Loghain had been mounted on horseback, then they would have been effective a lot more effective in their role.  As they weren't on horseback, their ability to charge in and do damage would be greatly diminshed.  Of course if we are to assume they really were on horseback, but the lack of horse models meant they weren't displayed that way, then, yeah having them be that force be the surprise flanking attack would be the smart thing to do.

I agree about the non swapping out of various units here in our world in those times.  But it's not our world we're talking about, and while I do agree it's still probably against how they did things as well, it doesn't mean it's not smarter to do so.  And we really don't know the composition of the forces.  Were Loghain's forces only his personal troops and the same for Cailan?  It seems doubtful.  I expect they had several different groups mixed already.  I just figure that Loghain stacked troops of lords most loyal to Cailan under Cailan, as that would undercut the power of Cailan's supporters if there was a civil war in the future.

I seriously doubt that the darkspawn would change into any sort of formation, they are not dumb animals, but they show very little undertanding of tactics or strategy.  It's more likely that they will just try to overwhelm you with their ferocity and numbers.  It's charging the darkspawn that let the darkspawn surround the Ferelden troops.  If the troops had held their line and let the darkspawn come to them, they could have fought them at better odds.  At far better odds if they had built up some defenses down there to help channel the darkspawn.  Even if the darkspawn outnumbered them 50 to 1, as long as the Ferelden forces engaged the darkspawn in a way that let the fight at 1 to 1 (or better 1 to 2 or 1 to 3) then the darkspawn advantage in numbers was greatly diminished.  I am thinking of something like Termopylae here.  This would have been a much better thing that running into the darkspawn in a ragged line and letting themselves get outnumbered individually.

Because the darkspawn moved a lot of ballistas in Ostagar, I fail to see how the Ferelden forces couldn't get enough men in the hours they had to do the same sort of thing.

Wynne's level is a bad argument for the ability of mages.  If you rush, you might be able to get her at 6th level or maybe lower (not sure how you'd get out alive, but that's not really important here).  You can also do the Circle last in the mainline, and pick her up around level 20 or even higher.  More than experienced enough to know several AoE spells.  I think it's better to judge by the mage plus two apprentices random encounter.  I usually get that at a mid level and they often hit me with their not-so-friendly friendly fire.  And we know Uldred knew some sort of AoE spell (probably more than one).  Besides, Wynne is a healer type, not really a battle mage.  Anyway, you can get fireball and blizzard at low levels in the game, and Fiona (from the novels) knew both of them.  And since I really doubt they'd mostly be sending mages that knew only how to make magic lights when they were about to face a darkspawn horde, I do expect most of the mages there would have some sort of AoE damage spell, and probably more than one.

[draxynnus]

errant_knight wrote...

And yet more good points! Bravo, Ser.

Thank you.  *bows*

Carodej wrote...

Good points, but... a) if he really thought Loghain already had a contingency plan to silence him, then it seems quite foolish for Cailan to risk his life and those of his men on a man he trusted to so little.

This is where, I think, Cailan's real miscalculation lied. The implication I've had is that Cailan knew that Loghain was working against him, and possibly had an inkling that, given a chance, Loghain might spirit him off and make him a puppet ruler (and we know from the game that Loghain was certainly willing to do that to Anora). However, Cailan didn't know about Loghain's promise to Maric not to put any one person above the good of Ferelden, or if he did, he believed that Loghain wouldn't consider cutting off the royal line to be in the good of Ferelden. In other words, what Cailan could have been counting on was that while Loghain might not like him politically and personally, Loghain would still do whatever was possible to ensure that Calenhad's line didn't end there.

As for you could very well be right.  Cailan was certainly an inspiration to the men, and there was a lot of muttering in the troops about the darkspawn.  The only way I see around this really, assuming it was the problem, is that the position of the troops really should have been reversed in the first place.  The more military bearing of Loghain's troops make me think that they probably would not have as much of a concern from some soldiers having lower moral.  Plus their armor really was appropriate for troops that should have been positioned to hold the line.  But yeah, it is possible that moral was too poor in that section for Cailan to have been goading on Loghain's troops.

Aye, it looks like those troops were basically Loghain's elite. The best explanation that I can think of for why they weren't swapped was the Grey Wardens - which essentially had to be on the front line in case the Archdemon came up. Now, if Cailan was worried about Loghain's attitude towards the Wardens, he may have decided it was best to keep the Wardens and Loghain's troops seperate as much as possible before battle was joined - thus preventing any "accidents" Loghain may have had planned. Some of those lighter-armoured troops may well also have been Grey Wardens wearing lighter armour by choice, although others would certainly have been levies from the arls.

Regarding the military strategy, I will certainly agree that even if Cailan was politically more astute than he seemed to be, he didn't exactly appear to be a military genius from what we saw. Some of Bioware's decisions could have been Rule of Cool, however.

There is no need for raised platforms when you have an enormous wall to stand on.  While the only archers we saw were on the ground, that doesn't mean there were none on the walls. 

Weren't there archers and siege engines on the bridge as you run across (until they get cleaned up by Darkspawn artillery, anyway)?

Modifié par draxynnus, 04 février 2010 - 07:56 .

[Carodej]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Carodej wrote...

Nothing in the books or the game show him a patriot.  When the Orlesian tax collectors came one day, he family couldn't afford the taxes.  They knocked out his father and raped and killed his mother before his very eyes.  Loghain is not a people person, he is very self centered and survival oriented.  He shows little caring for any others.  Instead of defending the country against darkspawn, he lets it be ravaged - just so he can have his forces intact to prevent a suspected Orlesian invasion!  He sells his own citizens into slavery so that he can finance his army to fight in the civil war that he started.  Loghain may have been planning on killing Cailan long before Ostagar, but Loghain has no love of Ferelden, merely hatred of Orlais.

I believe I've said something similar before. Loghain cares nothing about the survival of Ferelden, or the survival of it's citizens. He only cares that they are independent from Orlais. I, personally, would rather be an Orlesian lackey (temporarily, while planning my rebellion) than be consumed as darkspawn munchies - or turned into a broodmother. There's no rebellion against that. Loghain as a patriot = Epic Fail.

And I am pretty sure I've read that "something similar" that you wrote before.  I obviously agree with you. 

Before when people described how bad things were under Orlesian rule, I really had too little idea when I had only played the game.  Since I recently read both of the novels, I gained a much cleared idea of what things were like.  Orlesian rule was terrible.  But when compared to Howe's city guards that were worse than criminals (this told to us by the game's smartest person, Sergeant Kylon) and a regent that sells its citizens into slavery - well, it's like a lose-lose scenario.  Neither option is good for you average Ferelden.  But then when you add in that Loghain didn't try to stop the darkspawn, well, at least Orlais takes that threat seriously.  And while Loghain obviously doesn't agree, I am with you Susan, I would prefer to take my chances under Orlesian rule than be in the belly of some darkspawn.  Even Morrigan would approve of this decision, because after all, the most important thing is to survive. 

[RangerSG]

Carodej,



Well argued. A couple things that would merit noting here.



First of all, on the question of "why did Cailan's men charge." Simply put, two-fold.



1) A "hammer and anvil" strategy requires the anvil to be enough of a threat to draw the wrath of the bulk of the enemy. Thus if it tortoises, the enemy is likely to do the same--or worse, find the "hammer" and turn the strategy around in their own flanking maneuver.



2) Medieval troops (especially in Western combat) were typically not highly-trained or well-coordinated. From what we see of Ostagar, it's pretty clear that the troops are operating at the limit of their cohesiveness in the plan as it was constructed. Expecting them to charge and then fake a fighting withdrawal is entirely too much coordination of movement. Even as late as the US Civil War, such massed-formation cohesion was all but unheard of.



3) Also to be added into the discussion is the Chantry didn't want the mages there. They didn't want them terribly involved in the battle. And probably made sure they were placed as far away as possible from "corrupting the troops" which means they were probably all but useless in the actual battle.

[draxynnus]

RangerSG wrote...

3) Also to be added into the discussion is the Chantry didn't want the mages there. They didn't want them terribly involved in the battle. And probably made sure they were placed as far away as possible from "corrupting the troops" which means they were probably all but useless in the actual battle.

This is an interesting point - I vaguely recall that if you play the mage origins, it's mentioned somewhere that there are only seven other mages at Ostagar.

[Carodej]

RangerSG wrote...

Carodej,

Well argued. A couple things that would merit noting here.

First of all, on the question of "why did Cailan's men charge." Simply put, two-fold.

1) A "hammer and anvil" strategy requires the anvil to be enough of a threat to draw the wrath of the bulk of the enemy. Thus if it tortoises, the enemy is likely to do the same--or worse, find the "hammer" and turn the strategy around in their own flanking maneuver.

2) Medieval troops (especially in Western combat) were typically not highly-trained or well-coordinated. From what we see of Ostagar, it's pretty clear that the troops are operating at the limit of their cohesiveness in the plan as it was constructed. Expecting them to charge and then fake a fighting withdrawal is entirely too much coordination of movement. Even as late as the US Civil War, such massed-formation cohesion was all but unheard of.

3) Also to be added into the discussion is the Chantry didn't want the mages there. They didn't want them terribly involved in the battle. And probably made sure they were placed as far away as possible from "corrupting the troops" which means they were probably all but useless in the actual battle.

My main disagreement with 1 above, is that it assumes that a horde of darkspawn act in some sort of military fashion.  I don't recall this in any of the books or the game.  Darkspawn mostly just attack their nearest foe they know about (not counting the occasional darkspawn archer that realizes it should retreat when enemies get near them).  Due to their group mind, even the darkspawn in the rear of the pack know that there is fighting to be done if they can get to the enemies ahead of them.  I have seen no sign that those not immediately engaged would do anything other than press forward to get nearer their known foes.

As for 2 above, I expect you're right about the Ferelden troops.  We don't know much about them, but the ones under Cailan's command don't have nearly the military bearing that we see in the troops by Loghain.

On 3, I agree that the Chantry might wish this, but I don't think the Chantry has the authority to do it - at least not in this case.  The mages are there to serve the king to help defend against the Blight.  While I am sure the Chantry wishes it could dictate what the mages do there, I would expect Cailan or Loghain would have made the final decision as this is a military matter.  If you play the mage origin (and draxynnus, you're right, it's only seven mages - Wynne, Uldred, and five others), Duncan is there trying to recruit more mages for the king's forces at Ostagar.  He was wanting something like 1 or 2 per division (or something like that, I forget the exact wording), which to me implies that the mages were going to be used somewhat intelligently instead of being directed by the Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kaiousei wrote...
The ballistas seemed ground into their positions I think, so you couldn't really move them.  As for the mages, AoE spells seem to be very rare (aside from fireball, but that would run into the same problem as the archers did, see above).  Wynne is supposed to be one of the best mages in the circle and she's barely experienced enough to even have the option of knowing a mass AoE spell.  The other mages, arguably, just didn't know that level of magic.

I agree with all of your poitns except for this one.
Wynne's level depends on yours. If you go to the circle Tower last, she knows many more spells.

Fluff-winse (or universe-wise), mages can rain fiery death.


TO DAVID:
Do enlighten us here please. Was Cailan stupid and naive, a puppet for others to pull it's strings? Or was he smarter than initially portrayed?

[Jannamarie]

Carodej wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Carodej,

Well argued. A couple things that would merit noting here.

First of all, on the question of "why did Cailan's men charge." Simply put, two-fold.

1) A "hammer and anvil" strategy requires the anvil to be enough of a threat to draw the wrath of the bulk of the enemy. Thus if it tortoises, the enemy is likely to do the same--or worse, find the "hammer" and turn the strategy around in their own flanking maneuver.

2) Medieval troops (especially in Western combat) were typically not highly-trained or well-coordinated. From what we see of Ostagar, it's pretty clear that the troops are operating at the limit of their cohesiveness in the plan as it was constructed. Expecting them to charge and then fake a fighting withdrawal is entirely too much coordination of movement. Even as late as the US Civil War, such massed-formation cohesion was all but unheard of.

3) Also to be added into the discussion is the Chantry didn't want the mages there. They didn't want them terribly involved in the battle. And probably made sure they were placed as far away as possible from "corrupting the troops" which means they were probably all but useless in the actual battle.

My main disagreement with 1 above, is that it assumes that a horde of darkspawn act in some sort of military fashion.  I don't recall this in any of the books or the game.  Darkspawn mostly just attack their nearest foe they know about (not counting the occasional darkspawn archer that realizes it should retreat when enemies get near them).  Due to their group mind, even the darkspawn in the rear of the pack know that there is fighting to be done if they can get to the enemies ahead of them.  I have seen no sign that those not immediately engaged would do anything other than press forward to get nearer their known foes.

As for 2 above, I expect you're right about the Ferelden troops.  We don't know much about them, but the ones under Cailan's command don't have nearly the military bearing that we see in the troops by Loghain.

On 3, I agree that the Chantry might wish this, but I don't think the Chantry has the authority to do it - at least not in this case.  The mages are there to serve the king to help defend against the Blight.  While I am sure the Chantry wishes it could dictate what the mages do there, I would expect Cailan or Loghain would have made the final decision as this is a military matter.  If you play the mage origin (and draxynnus, you're right, it's only seven mages - Wynne, Uldred, and five others), Duncan is there trying to recruit more mages for the king's forces at Ostagar.  He was wanting something like 1 or 2 per division (or something like that, I forget the exact wording), which to me implies that the mages were going to be used somewhat intelligently instead of being directed by the Chantry.

----
And we are shown two different examples of the Chantry and the Mages sniping at each other (the Rev Mother sending Alistair to deliver the message to the mage) and then at the meeting before the battle.

Plus the average Fereldenite is scared/hates/distrusts mages.

I think the infighting and distrust would severely limit how a battle commander could attempt to use the mages.

Modifié par Jannamarie, 04 février 2010 - 09:19 .