522 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

I find putting Alistair in the wardens as a "back up heir to the throne" not a good choice. Wardens are tainted and its hard to continue the line past Alistair PLUS they don't live long with the taint so less time to make a child to continue it. At best its a short sighted solution to the problem. That's IF he survived the Joining in the first place (that he did was well and good and most likely Cailen wouldn't have known about the death thing). Does anyone else find it funny that no one seems to know about the ritual except the wardens prior to your PC joining and then after NPCs bring it up (Anora and Leliana to name 2). And it was supposed to be a big secret?



Perhaps there WAS no other way to get Alistair out of the Chantry except conscripting him to the Wardens and they were making the best of the situation.

[Lupus Canivus]

One word! Fantastic! This is by far one of the best threads I have read here or anywhere for that matter.



I have been making notes only to cross them out as some one else took up the point/question/answer.....lol.



A couple of points 1st: Zeph89 - Eamon was part of the rebellion but he married an Orlesian so he didn't hate them as Loghain.



2nd: Loghain hates anything and everything Orlesian. This coupled with his love of self, his believe that he, and only he, knows best allows him to do what ever he will. And then claim its for every ones best. He does not love Feredlden. Sorry I don't remember which one of you said this first (Carodej?) but its also my analysis from the game and books. There are penty of exsamples in "this" real world to merit this conclusion.



3rd: By sending two GW to the tower, one being Alistair, he not only save an heir to the throne but would have someone loyal to see that the becon was lit! He also choose the newest GW recruit, remember that, to accompany. Some one who would follow Alistair as would be natural. Yes, yes if he hadn't we wouldn't have a story lol.



4: Carodej, 100% on your military insight (this means I agree with you 100%, your military insight, as mine, might not be). And Draxynnus, you and others have very valid points. Thats why this game rocks! I would have used the heavy armour troops as the anvil and the GW and light armour troops as the hammer (with the hounds). As to archers we must (must we) assume they were placed on the top, as we see on the bridge. Again remembering that Loghain's forces were to flank the darkspawn, they must of had ways around the bottle neck. Its a pity we don't know where they are stationed. And a map of the area would have been great.



5: I dislike Loghain, no I hate Loghain! I say this so you all know that my analysis can be a little tinsy winsy bit biased. Loghain had been planing to bring to a head his plans at Ostagar. I say this because, a) the tower and the darkspawn. He keept on changing the scouting route of the Ash warriors. You don't do that, you can change the patten but you systematicaly scout them out so as not to miss anything. c) I don't believe in coincidence. d) Posion Eamon, have your people take over the Mage tower (Uldred) and kill off the only other family that could have had a claim on the throne. Not by blood but by its standing ie. the Coulslands. After all they are older than the kingdom and could act as a banner for rebellion. And we have many exsamples, from our own medieval time.



Well there my two pence worth.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Just because Cailen is cleverer than he might appear at first does not mean that he wasn’t obsessed with glory. Given his father and the way Cailen was raised one would expect that he would want to create his own legend.



Why rescue Alistair by means of the Wardens … well the wardens are heroes. This reminds me of the saying that people tend to gift others with what they themselves want. If Cailen was involved in getting Alistair out of the Chantry then he would have tried to do so in such a way that Alistair had a way to gain some measure of glory of his own. The events at Ostagar would have taken place long after any of his decisions about Alistair and the Wardens. Protecting Alistair by sending him to light the beacon would likely have been part of a separate plan. At that point having a Warden heir was obviously sub-optimal, but it may have been his only choice.



Similarly, on Cailen seeking glory, at Ostagar he is presented with many options and a general of questionable loyalty. He can wait for reinforcements, and likely withdraw … or he can stay and fight. If he stays and wins he will both gain glory AND be in a much better position to carry out his political plans. Just like any other human being his preconceptions and perhaps subconscious needs will influence his logic and choice of actions.



To me it simply looks like Cailen was hoping for the best but preparing for the worst should his plan fail. That’s a sensible attitude, and in no way takes away for the idea of Cailen seeking glory.



As for the battle scenes ... well I assume artistic license for things like the doomed charge into the teeth of the foe. While I would have wished to see better fortifications and battlefield preparation … as well as determined defense by Cailen’s forces … the reality is that showing a charge is more “heroic” and far closer to what the PC will see himself over the course of the game. Mostly I feel like it’s just the Game Devs trying to create emotion and I think that they did a good job of it here. It’s also possible to view this as yet another aspect of Cailen’s quest for glory and honor or his limits as a commander, but IMHO that’s reading a bit much into it.

[Lupus Canivus]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I find putting Alistair in the wardens as a "back up heir to the throne" not a good choice. Wardens are tainted and its hard to continue the line past Alistair PLUS they don't live long with the taint so less time to make a child to continue it. At best its a short sighted solution to the problem. That's IF he survived the Joining in the first place (that he did was well and good and most likely Cailen wouldn't have known about the death thing). Does anyone else find it funny that no one seems to know about the ritual except the wardens prior to your PC joining and then after NPCs bring it up (Anora and Leliana to name 2). And it was supposed to be a big secret?

Perhaps there WAS no other way to get Alistair out of the Chantry except conscripting him to the Wardens and they were making the best of the situation.

I think it was a good choise under the circum. and there nothing to say that Cailen didn't know about the ritul - his father did. Wynne also knew as well as my aunnt Till but she knows everything,

[Lupus Canivus]

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote...

Just because Cailen is cleverer than he might appear at first does not mean that he wasn’t obsessed with glory. Given his father and the way Cailen was raised one would expect that he would want to create his own legend.

Why rescue Alistair by means of the Wardens … well the wardens are heroes. This reminds me of the saying that people tend to gift others with what they themselves want. If Cailen was involved in getting Alistair out of the Chantry then he would have tried to do so in such a way that Alistair had a way to gain some measure of glory of his own. The events at Ostagar would have taken place long after any of his decisions about Alistair and the Wardens. Protecting Alistair by sending him to light the beacon would likely have been part of a separate plan. At that point having a Warden heir was obviously sub-optimal, but it may have been his only choice.

Similarly, on Cailen seeking glory, at Ostagar he is presented with many options and a general of questionable loyalty. He can wait for reinforcements, and likely withdraw … or he can stay and fight. If he stays and wins he will both gain glory AND be in a much better position to carry out his political plans. Just like any other human being his preconceptions and perhaps subconscious needs will influence his logic and choice of actions.

To me it simply looks like Cailen was hoping for the best but preparing for the worst should his plan fail. That’s a sensible attitude, and in no way takes away for the idea of Cailen seeking glory.

As for the battle scenes ... well I assume artistic license for things like the doomed charge into the teeth of the foe. While I would have wished to see better fortifications and battlefield preparation … as well as determined defense by Cailen’s forces … the reality is that showing a charge is more “heroic” and far closer to what the PC will see himself over the course of the game. Mostly I feel like it’s just the Game Devs trying to create emotion and I think that they did a good job of it here. It’s also possible to view this as yet another aspect of Cailen’s quest for glory and honor or his limits as a commander, but IMHO that’s reading a bit much into it.

Good points and yes, one doesn't negate the other. But I must say that after this thread I will not see Cailen in the same negetive light. I think he was a deeper person. Then again thinking about our own history they (kings/queens and princes/ess) have to be to survive the intriges.

[draxynnus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kaiousei wrote...
The ballistas seemed ground into their positions I think, so you couldn't really move them.  As for the mages, AoE spells seem to be very rare (aside from fireball, but that would run into the same problem as the archers did, see above).  Wynne is supposed to be one of the best mages in the circle and she's barely experienced enough to even have the option of knowing a mass AoE spell.  The other mages, arguably, just didn't know that level of magic.

I agree with all of your poitns except for this one.
Wynne's level depends on yours. If you go to the circle Tower last, she knows many more spells.

Fluff-winse (or universe-wise), mages can rain fiery death.

Plus, a mage that really specialises can be tossing fireballs by level 3 (put all their points in Magic and a human mage would have 21 at level 1, 24 at 2, and 27 at 3 - that's the magic number). Assuming that all Circle mages have to pick Arcane Bolt as their freebie, our hypothetical 3rd-level fireball generator would have 1 spell outside the Fire line.

However, it's unlikely that every Mage takes this path. Wynne certainly doesn't - left to her own devices, she just picks up Earth, Spirit Healer and Creation up to a fairly high level. I'd probably guess the average level of the mages at Ostagar ranged from 5 to 10 or so, and the impression I had is that they were volunteers rather than chosen for their battle magic capabilities, so it's possible that they were in fact a little lacking in boom spells. Since some of the mages at least appeared to be aligned with Loghain, it's also possible that some of them were among his troops when the battle started and thus didn't fight, reducing further the chance of there being a Primal magic specialist among those that did. 

sylvanaerie wrote...

I find putting Alistair in the wardens as a "back up heir to the throne" not a good choice. Wardens are tainted and its hard to continue the line past Alistair PLUS they don't live long with the taint so less time to make a child to continue it. At best its a short sighted solution to the problem. That's IF he survived the Joining in the first place (that he did was well and good and most likely Cailen wouldn't have known about the death thing).

Well, the average is thirty years - if Alistair hasn't conceived a child by then, his wife has probably undergone menopause and he'd need to be robbing the cradle to try to beget an heir anyway. A bigger problem than his shorter life expectancy is that Grey Wardens have lower than normal fertility (although it's unclear just how much of an issue this is - it's mentioned that they rarely have children, but this could be at least partially because of their lifestyle).

All things considered, I doubt anyone really wanted Alistair to end up as the sole living member of the line - but all the same, it's better to keep him alive or not if there's a likelihood of the king dying childless.

[zeph89]

Lupus Canivus wrote...

One word! Fantastic! This is by far one of the best threads I have read here or anywhere for that matter.

I have been making notes only to cross them out as some one else took up the point/question/answer.....lol.

A couple of points 1st: Zeph89 - Eamon was part of the rebellion but he married an Orlesian so he didn't hate them as Loghain.

2nd: Loghain hates anything and everything Orlesian. This coupled with his love of self, his believe that he, and only he, knows best allows him to do what ever he will. And then claim its for every ones best. He does not love Feredlden. Sorry I don't remember which one of you said this first (Carodej?) but its also my analysis from the game and books. There are penty of exsamples in "this" real world to merit this conclusion.

3rd: By sending two GW to the tower, one being Alistair, he not only save an heir to the throne but would have someone loyal to see that the becon was lit! He also choose the newest GW recruit, remember that, to accompany. Some one who would follow Alistair as would be natural. Yes, yes if he hadn't we wouldn't have a story lol.

I forgot to mention that particular issue, my bad. Despite Eamon obviously not hating the orlesians, I seriously doubt he would support Cailan. As far as any of us know, Eamon and Isolde’s marriage didn’t have any serious political implications, besides Eamon losing some favor within the Ferelden nobility. There were no heir issues since Isolde apparently gave up whatever land or title she owned, if she ever did. I believe that he would not agree to an alliance by marriage between Cailan and Celene. It’s obvious Ferelden would get the short end of the stick in such a deal. Not to mention the civil war that would happen before that.

Loghain loves Ferelden as long as loving it means keeping the chevaliers away, I agree to that point.

However I can’t really reach a conclusion about Cailan sending Alistair and the Warden hold the torch at Ostagar. I don’t think he was expecting Loghain’s betrayal or any kind of interference, though it’s possible he did. Was he just safeguarding his only known brother? Was he envious or afraid he would steal some of his spotlight in the battle? Both Duncan and Loghain knew Alistair was Maric’s son, at least. It would be a cruel thing to do just for envy’s sake, I think. I’d rather amuse the idea that he would like having two Grey Wardens holding a torch, just in case.

edit: weird paragraphs <_<

Modifié par zeph89, 04 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[Freckles04]

First off, this is a wonderful thread. I love intelligent, flame-free discussions.

Secondly, the best thing about this game is that everything we learn is entirely based on perception. Nothing is hard-and-fast truth. It's all about how the characters interpret events, and then share those biased interpretations with us, leaving us to figure out what we believe is truth.

That said, I have some opinions I'd like to share. This is probably going to be a long post...

Cailan's mindset

Looking back, I think I was foolish to take Cailan at face value for so long. No other characters in the game are exactly as they appear to be, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Cailan is perhaps smarter than he lets on. That said, I think a driving force of his personality was carving out a place for himself in history. After all, he has a huge pair of shoes to fill: his father was the Saviour of Ferelden, after all, who not only drove the Orlesians back to Orlais, but went adventuring with the Grey Wardens as well. At the end of The Stolen Throne, we see Cailan being regaled with the story of how his father and Loghain drove the Orlesians away, so you can only assume he grew up listening to these kinds of tales. That has to colour your motivations in life, I would imagine.

I don't know what to think of Elric's story in RtO. Again, perception comes into play. Did Cailan honestly believe the battle would not be won? Or was that Elric's take on why the King gave him the key? Perhaps Elric's own pessimism is colouring what he relates to the Warden.

Cailan and the Battle of Ostagar

I think Cailan's choice to engage the horde was prompted by the horde's approach. They had to battle it. Thus, they had two choices: make it a full-on battle, or take a defensive stance. The cautious thing to do would have been to take the defensive stance. But Cailan had Loghain planning battle strategies, he had mages ready to unleash their magic, and he had the fabled Grey Wardens at his side. It's really no wonder that he chose to charge ahead with the full-on battle. His comment at the war meeting to Loghain -- "Perhaps we should wait for the Orlesians, then" -- was more intended to get Loghain to capitulate than to actually suggest they should wait.

And why would he endanger himself on the front line? I think he was smart enough to know it wasn't a good idea, but he let his desire to live up to his father's example of glory and adventure overrule his judgment. He had the Grey Wardens with him. He had DUNCAN with him, the man who had protected his father 20+ years before as they ventured into the Deep Roads.

Cailan and Alistair

Anora, in the dialogue leading up to the Landsmeet, will reveal that Cailan knew about Alistair. (Not much of a secret, was it?) If you state at Ostagar that you will light the beacon alone, Cailan insists that Alistair accompany you. If you skip Alistair's revelations when you first approach Redcliffe, only to have his parentage revealed after you awaken Eamon, you'll have a dialogue option where you can point out that it was rather convenient that Alistair survived Ostagar. I think all of these elements show that Cailan was definitely protecting Alistair in sending him to the tower.

Someone made the point that perhaps Cailan had intended to identify Alistair as his heir at some point, which is an interesting thought. I don't know if he would have ever done it formally, unless or until it was absolutely necessary. But it certainly would explain why Alistair was rescued from the Chantry by Duncan just before taking his vows. I also agree with previous posters who pointed out that likely the only way to get Alistair out of the Chantry was via the Right of Conscription. The King would have no power over the Chantry, and Cailan would likely have not wanted to act so obviously, anyway. However, the Grey Warden's Right of Conscription cannot be denied. Someone also brought up the idea that the reason the Chantry was so reluctant to let Alistair go was because he was the son of a king, and that gave them power -- I think that's right on target and answers a question I'd had for a long time about why the Grand Cleric was so mad. Thanks! 

The outcome at Ostagar

I don't know if the main players at Ostagar were as pessimistic as some of the later content seems to indicate, but there are some interesting points to ponder.

- Why did Duncan never ask for the Grey Warden treaties you retrieved? He says that they might be needed when he gives you the task of finding them, but never mentions them again. Did he want you to hold onto them...just in case?

- If Cailan had survived Ostagar, would he have lived for much longer? I'm thinking no. Loghain was already taking measures to shore up his own strength -- poisoning Eamon, empowering Howe, letting Howe kill the Couslands. I highly doubt Cailan would have made it back to Denerim, and this was before Loghain knew about the King's dealings with Celene.

- Someone stated that if Cailan had stationed himself with Loghain, Loghain's soldiers would have followed the King's orders and not the Teyrn's. I disagree, and I think Cailan knew this. If you talk to Alistair at Ostagar, he'll give his opinion on who's "keeping the lid on the pot", and that's Teyrn Loghain. He states specifically that Teyrn Loghain is the one who will win the battle, not the King. Now, that might be some jealousy talking (maybe), but I didn't see anything in game to contradict that this viewpoint was shared by most everyone. I think everyone LIKES Cailan, but everyone knows who to turn to for the battle. Thus, it would follow that the soldiers would likely ignore the King's orders and follow Loghain's -- though they might hesitate for an instant.

Okay, I think that covers all of my thoughts on the issue. Thanks again for a great discussion and for reading my wall of text...

[Lupus Canivus]

zeph89 wrote...

Lupus Canivus wrote...

One word! Fantastic! This is by far one of the best threads I have read here or anywhere for that matter.

I have been making notes only to cross them out as some one else took up the point/question/answer.....lol.

A couple of points 1st: Zeph89 - Eamon was part of the rebellion but he married an Orlesian so he didn't hate them as Loghain.

2nd: Loghain hates anything and everything Orlesian. This coupled with his love of self, his believe that he, and only he, knows best allows him to do what ever he will. And then claim its for every ones best. He does not love Feredlden. Sorry I don't remember which one of you said this first (Carodej?) but its also my analysis from the game and books. There are penty of exsamples in "this" real world to merit this conclusion.

3rd: By sending two GW to the tower, one being Alistair, he not only save an heir to the throne but would have someone loyal to see that the becon was lit! He also choose the newest GW recruit, remember that, to accompany. Some one who would follow Alistair as would be natural. Yes, yes if he hadn't we wouldn't have a story lol.

I forgot to mention that particular issue, my bad. Despite Eamon obviously not hating the orlesians, I seriously doubt he would support Cailan. As far as any of us know, Eamon and Isolde’s marriage didn’t have any serious political implications, besides Eamon losing some favor within the Ferelden nobility. There were no heir issues since Isolde apparently gave up whatever land or title she owned, if she ever did. I believe that he would not agree to an alliance by marriage between Cailan and Celene. It’s obvious Ferelden would get the short end of the stick in such a deal. Not to mention the civil war that would happen before that.

Loghain loves Ferelden as long as loving it means keeping the chevaliers away, I agree to that point.

However I can’t really reach a conclusion about Cailan sending Alistair and the Warden hold the torch at Ostagar. I don’t think he was expecting Loghain’s betrayal or any kind of interference, though it’s possible he did. Was he just safeguarding his only known brother? Was he envious or afraid he would steal some of his spotlight in the battle? Both Duncan and Loghain knew Alistair was Maric’s son, at least. It would be a cruel thing to do just for envy’s sake, I think. I’d rather amuse the idea that he would like having two Grey Wardens holding a torch, just in case.

edit: weird paragraphs <_<

My bad, thats what happens when you write notes without puting them incontext. I didn't mean he would be for the match but not against an alliance. Do we know if the Queen is married, or not? I really can't remember. And I actually think she likes Cailan's Queen  forgot name! I honestly do not think that marriage was planned or that they were lovers. As to sending them to the tower, well there are so many shades of grey (at the moment) that its really not easy to say why. You don't mention that it could also be, he wanted some one loyal to Ferelden there to make sure the becon was lit. If he had doubts about Loghain.

[Lupus Canivus]

To Freckles04, I like your wall of text! Good points and reasoning.

[tweaked_assassin]

Just to jump in the middle of your discussion because I'm enjoying reading what yall have written and learning a thing or two. I do have an opinion on the battle of ostagar, first I would say that yes they only had two choices, 1 to go all out attack(which they did) or 2 take a defensive position and hold what they had. I believe taking the defensive would have been the better choice yes, but my question is would it have really changed anything? Of course Cailan had Duncan and the soldiers but then again Loghain knows pretty much everything there is to know about Cailan. I believe that Cailan was furious anyway, and rage can make a man blind but I just don't think the outcome would have changed either way and I think even if Cailan lived through the battle he wouldn't live for much longer.

[nijimeijer]

My thoughts from RTO - Cailan was forcing the battle at Ostagar in order to force Loghain to understand that they needed outside help to stop the Blight. That help, naturally, would come from the Orlesians.



There are a couple of layers here.



There is Cailan working *with* Eamon to a) put aside Anora, secure help in stopping the Blight by c) minimalizing Loghain's importance in Cailan's army. How do they do this? By showing that Loghain is wrong - Ferelden could not battle this alone. In other words, they lose the battle at Ostagar.



Eamon was not necessarily a full participant in this. Duncan reminds Cailan that Redcliffe forces could arrive shortly. Eamon was giving Cailan an out, as his plan was dangerous. Throwing a battle? Crazy! But I believe they were working together. A massive loss like this would force people to realize that Loghain was not necessarily the best general for a Blight.



Meanwhile, Cailan was running his own game on the side. It's quite obvious (I felt) that he was making gestures towards the Orlesian Empress. Gestures that aren't just about reconciliation, but romantic ones, perhaps. Maybe these never would have come to fruition. Maybe they would have resulted in another civil war. Maybe neither of those. But that part of the negotiations was Cailan's alone.



Loghain's motivation is the third. In order, his motivations were to keep Cailan and Eamon from their dealings with the Orlesians. He probably did not realize the full details, and he became a bit paranoid. In his mind, Eamon and Cailan were giving away the country he'd fought to restore. Perhaps he didn't understand the full importance of the Blight - how a Blight is more than a national issue. Loghain, in short, is not an international kind of guy If he found out that Cailan wanted to put aside Anora, that's another issue. Probably slightly less important to him, to be honest, but it is an additional motivator for him.



That's how I feel about it, at any rate.

[zeph89]

@Freckles04: I like the way you think! Here's some thoughts:

Freckles04 wrote...

I don't know what to think of Elric's story in RtO. Again, perception comes into play. Did Cailan honestly believe the battle would not be won? Or was that Elric's take on why the King gave him the key? Perhaps Elric's own pessimism is colouring what he relates to the Warden.

I never considered this and maybe you have a point on Elric's biased point of view.

Freckles04 wrote...

And why would he endanger himself on the front line? I think he was smart enough to know it wasn't a good idea, but he let his desire to live up to his father's example of glory and adventure overrule his judgment. He had the Grey Wardens with him. He had DUNCAN with him, the man who had protected his father 20+ years before as they ventured into the Deep Roads.

I think you actually hit the spot on why Cailan wouldn't care much about the consequences on being on the frontlines. Even if they would eventually end losing the battle (which happened), he probably thought he had his safety guaranteed by the Wardens.

Freckles04 wrote...

- Why did Duncan never ask for the Grey Warden treaties you retrieved? He says that they might be needed when he gives you the task of finding them, but never mentions them again. Did he want you to hold onto them...just in case?

- If Cailan had survived Ostagar, would he have lived for much longer? I'm thinking no. Loghain was already taking measures to shore up his own strength -- poisoning Eamon, empowering Howe, letting Howe kill the Couslands. I highly doubt Cailan would have made it back to Denerim, and this was before Loghain knew about the King's dealings with Celene.

I believe Duncan probably would end doing exactly the same the Warden did with the treaties if he had survived. Unless, of course, the Blight ended there. Pity it was impossible with the Archdemon busy in the Deep Roads.

And I agree Cailan wouldn't probably survive much longer, unless there were other Grey Warden survivors with him or managed to be protected by allies before something nasty could happen to him.

Modifié par zeph89, 04 février 2010 - 03:52 .

[_Aine_]

This is a fabulous thread and while I don't have the time right now to give it the attention it deserves in my response, I wanted to say this: the more I see about the situations that preceded Ostagar, the more I realize that there is a LOT going on. If you look at it completely detached from your own opinion, it certainly looks as though no-one trusted the other and both were at work to act against what they believed to be the behind-the-scenes-politics that the other was participating in. Both Cailan and Loghain could say, and rightly so, that the other was working behind the others back. It isn't paranoia when the situation is true then. What is scary is relying on each other with your LIVES when you don't rely on them for mere political information. Loghain is working against Cailan, Calian is maneouvering without Loghain.... all intrigue and drama. Got to love that!



Interestingly, Cailan entrusted the key to Eldric, who during his dying breath, states that he was there to defend the king, and was his friend but he also withdrew ( abandoned the king when they realized the battle was lost.) On one hand i totally think that not giving the key to Loghain made sense ANYWAY because if you thought *you* as king may possibly die, why give it to someone else who very likely will also die in the same battle? Then, though, what does this say of the kings thoughts of Eldric, that he assumed he would run with his tail between his legs and get the heck out of there alive? It could be that the king with his esteem for the Grey Wardens wanted the information to go to *neutral* (politically) hands, and the Wardens were the closest to neutral that you can get given the situation.



It is also possible of course, that the reason alistair was sent to the tower is that Cailan expected glory with the wardens ( he said as much " fighting with the esteemed DUncan against a tainted god" or whatever it was he waxed poetic about in that scene from early in the game. Maybe he didn't want his kid-half-brother to steal his thunder. *shrugs* When they are dead, its hard to ask



Basically, it seems like everyone was both working with and against each other in many respects, which will further confuse the situation because all you can do is theorize and imagine, which, is faulty on a good day. Sure is fun though.



What I am waiting for is the devs to jump in and throw us for a loop with information that Cailan is in fact Loghain and Rowans son and not Marics at all lol I am *not* saying I am thinking that, just illustrating that sometimes one little piece of information can send all logical speculation for a flying loop.



This seriously has been a great thread! I do wonder what Eamon was up to and why Cailan was distancing himself from him somewhat. What is the information we have regarding the poisoning of Eamon and the proven reasons/factors behind it? I can't help thinking that there is information we *don't* have that plays a huge role into what led up " to that fateful day in Ostagar".

[RangerSG]

1) I've always thought that Elric's PoV here is suspect. There's no reason to believe he isn't defending his own decisions, at least in part, by projecting them onto Cailan.



2) The dialogue is ambivalent about when Cailan expressed "doubts" about the battle. I've always thought that he first felt "doubt" when you see him look down as the hounds are slaughtered. Maybe that's 'my' projection. But in any case, I don't see him expressing doubt about a battle before it's fought. He has no reason to. They'd fought three times and won. No one had a reason to believe this was a lost battle. I don't think the exchange between Duncan and Cailan was a false one. They each seem to trust the other, at least to be who they are. So IMHO, any doubts on Cailan's part happen once the battle starts...or even later.



3) On the earlier point of whether or not darkspawn think strategically. I would note that their group mind was 'strategic' enough to figure out burrowing up into the back of the Ferelden lines would be useful. But in any case, the strategy at Ostagar wasn't built on assuming the Darkspawn would operate like a normal army. Rather it was built on the simple principle that a flanking maneuver kills enemy momentum and thus allows them to be enveloped and destroyed. But it still mandates that the "anvil" be able to hold together long enough to draw the enemy far enough in that the "hammer" can swing behind and close the trap.

[Rhinna]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I find putting Alistair in the wardens as a "back up heir to the throne" not a good choice. Wardens are tainted and its hard to continue the line past Alistair PLUS they don't live long with the taint so less time to make a child to continue it. At best its a short sighted solution to the problem. That's IF he survived the Joining in the first place (that he did was well and good and most likely Cailen wouldn't have known about the death thing). Does anyone else find it funny that no one seems to know about the ritual except the wardens prior to your PC joining and then after NPCs bring it up (Anora and Leliana to name 2). And it was supposed to be a big secret?

Perhaps there WAS no other way to get Alistair out of the Chantry except conscripting him to the Wardens and they were making the best of the situation.

I think you are right - about getting Alastair out of the Chantry before they addled his brain with lyrium...
Here's an interesting thought....*WARNING>>>BOOK SPOILER AHEAD!>>>>"


From "The Calling" - When Fiona returned to Maric with his son (Alastair) she had no sign of the taint.  She had been to Anderfels - Weisshaupt - and was to return there.  She even told him the taint was gone - They weren't sure how...but the mages at Weisshaupt were researching this... Duncan accompanied Fiona when she showed Maric his son.  Duncan also promised Maric he would keep an eye on him, keep him safe, and bring Maric news from time to time.  Perhaps THAT is why Duncan became head of the Ferelden Grey Wardens, AND why he conscripted Alastair...perhaps he knew Alastair's mother survived the Joining...and that there was a possible cure for the taint, should the need arise...and doesn't the epilogue say something about Alastair going to Weisshaupt?  Perhaps to be rid of the taint so he can rule Ferelden and provide an heir to the Theirin line?

It's never stated in the book where Maric has him sent, but the logical choice would be Eamon.  He was, after all Rowan's brother, their families were extremely close - who better to keep the secret than Eamon?  Fiona even says "Tell him nothing.  Let him think his mother human, and dead." 

The question then is...why did Eamon send Alastair to the Chantry?  Did Isolde have him so whipped he did it to shut her up? I'm not sure...We do know Duncan almost came to blows with the Chantry mother to pull Ali out of there, and had to invoke the right of Conscription, and she was still furious....That's the puzzle!

[Freckles04]

shantisands wrote...

[snip]
What is the information we have regarding the poisoning of Eamon and the proven reasons/factors behind it? I can't help thinking that there is information we *don't* have that plays a huge role into what led up " to that fateful day in Ostagar".

I believe David Gaider said in another thread that Loghain never intended to have Eamon die from the poisoning, just to be incapacitated while he manoeuvred and shored up his own political power. That's why Berwick, the elf, is stationed at Redcliffe -- to watch the progression of the poison and report back news.

Like I said in my previous post, everything the PC learns in-game is based on other characters' perceptions and biased observations. I think the writers did a fantastic job with this, because it really does feel like a real-world kind of scenario. You're basically jumping into the middle of an ongoing series of events and trying to figure out what's happening based on what you learn through hearsay (the codex or rumours from the gossips, bartenders, etc.) and what other people want you to know, which may or may not be the truth. There are so many layers to all of the characters, it's unbelievable. There's nothing in the game that says, "HERE! This is the truth!" The PC/player is left to determine what the truth is.

Have I mentioned how AWESOME that is? I love it!

[zeph89]

@Lupus Canivus: No problem, there are so many ideas running wild around here that is really hard to keep track on them. And massive quoting makes my brain numb, I admit.

I think Empress Celene may actually like Anora (in a politic sort of way, so to speak), as said on Anora's Codex Entry, I imagine there's some similarities between them. They're both very intelligent and independent women. And as far as we know, the Empress isn't married.

But we're just supposing, after all, aren't we? I like to entertain the idea of massive drama between Orlais and Ferelden because Cailan thought Celene was way too pretty.  By the way, the Codex Entry on Culture of Ferelden by Celene is amusing, to say the least.

[errant_knight]

Rhinna wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I find putting Alistair in the wardens as a "back up heir to the throne" not a good choice. Wardens are tainted and its hard to continue the line past Alistair PLUS they don't live long with the taint so less time to make a child to continue it. At best its a short sighted solution to the problem. That's IF he survived the Joining in the first place (that he did was well and good and most likely Cailen wouldn't have known about the death thing). Does anyone else find it funny that no one seems to know about the ritual except the wardens prior to your PC joining and then after NPCs bring it up (Anora and Leliana to name 2). And it was supposed to be a big secret?

Perhaps there WAS no other way to get Alistair out of the Chantry except conscripting him to the Wardens and they were making the best of the situation.

I think you are right - about getting Alastair out of the Chantry before they addled his brain with lyrium...
Here's an interesting thought....*WARNING>>>BOOK SPOILER AHEAD!>>>>"


From "The Calling" - When Fiona returned to Maric with his son (Alastair) she had no sign of the taint.  She had been to Anderfels - Weisshaupt - and was to return there.  She even told him the taint was gone - They weren't sure how...but the mages at Weisshaupt were researching this... Duncan accompanied Fiona when she showed Maric his son.  Duncan also promised Maric he would keep an eye on him, keep him safe, and bring Maric news from time to time.  Perhaps THAT is why Duncan became head of the Ferelden Grey Wardens, AND why he conscripted Alastair...perhaps he knew Alastair's mother survived the Joining...and that there was a possible cure for the taint, should the need arise...and doesn't the epilogue say something about Alastair going to Weisshaupt?  Perhaps to be rid of the taint so he can rule Ferelden and provide an heir to the Theirin line?

It's never stated in the book where Maric has him sent, but the logical choice would be Eamon.  He was, after all Rowan's brother, their families were extremely close - who better to keep the secret than Eamon?  Fiona even says "Tell him nothing.  Let him think his mother human, and dead." 

The question then is...why did Eamon send Alastair to the Chantry?  Did Isolde have him so whipped he did it to shut her up? I'm not sure...We do know Duncan almost came to blows with the Chantry mother to pull Ali out of there, and had to invoke the right of Conscription, and she was still furious....That's the puzzle!

There's a way to remove the taint!? Well, that's important news, isn't it?

I have to point out that there's no evidence that Fiona is Alistair's mother, and circumstantial evidence to the contrary. I'm going to have to believe that Alistair's mother was a servant (and that shrew Goldana, his sister) until there is at least more evidence. And from an outside the game perspective, it would seem likely that if Fiona's son shows up, he'll be a mage, unless the writers want to add the potential complication of mage blood in the royal bloodline.

I think Eamon sent Alistair to the Chantry to ensure that he was no threat to Cailan's line, not knowing there would be no children there. Not because he hated Alistair, but because he has strong feelings that the heir should be legitimate. He doesn't suggest that Cailan name Alistair his heir and try to get him away from the Chantry, he suggest a much more drastic course of putting Anora aside, which would have caused big problems. Even when Cailan is dead, and Alistair is the only choice, Eamon isn't happy about it. Teagan questions it, too. Legitimacy was a much bigger deal than we see it now. The Chantry would have liked to have a member of the royal bloodline under their control, however, bastard or not. There's been quite a bit of discussion of this earlier in the thread. You might want to check that out. Some excellent points were made.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 04:36 .

[Maria13]

This thread picks up on subjects raised in some previous threads.  My view is that Cailan under wraps, is seeking new allies to break free: the Orlesian empress and the Grey Wardens while officially up front he's keeping up the glory hound/callow youth appearance.

From
that point of view, Alistair is a pawn, both in terms a concession to Duncan and perhaps someone to be tapped into as a resource in the future (a spy in the rank of the wardens? a future head of the wardens?).  It has been objected that the GWs are a far from optimal choice fo this because arising from the taint a) the life curtailment issue and virtual infertility.  On the first I wd say that 30 years in a society such as that of Ferelden is actually a lifetime and quite possibly a good one.  On the second, well not optimal but better than nought, Cailan has been unable to produce an heir, Alistair might just get lucky, who else is there?

On the other hand as well as the advantages I have already mentioned (a source within the GWs, potential leadership), and the things other have mentioned, the heroic appeal, the GWs are a transnational organisation and being within their ranks, Alistair could possibly be freerer to move and convey messages abroad, say to Orlais, than being trapped in the chantry.

In support of  my view that Cailan is playing a deep game, of the little we see of it, Cailan's decision making appears to be extremely prudent: He does not see the darkspawn as a blight because he has no evidence for it, he does not take Duncan at his word, nevertheless he leaves the door open on that possibility; he does not provide immediate revenge for the human noble ("after we've dealt with the darkspawn" which may be code
for: "I'll have to review how that fits into my strategy"); he immediately sends Alistair to the tower, protect my blood/or my future investment.

But the strategy is risky and he knows he is up against a master in Logain so he is playing everything extremely
cautiously. I think to some extent, Duncan is aware of what is going on, but, apart from the fact that he likes Cailan, he is happy to play along for the time being because it is good for the GWs and also for tackling this blight. Duncan too is astute and may well be wise to Cailan's game, we see him rebuking Alistair for getting people's backs up unnecessarily in camp and ordering him to the tower.

Modifié par Maria13, 04 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[LOST_PriNcEsS_]

This thread is really interesting!  It's nice to see everyone getting along and not yelling at each other.

I also felt like puttin' in my two cents as I just finished the DLC yesterday:

I disagree with all the people that believe that Loghain had ambitions for the throne.  I agree with a previous poster who said something like "Loghain didn't really have love for Ferelden, but HATE for Orlais."  Reading the novels gives a lot of insight into Loghain's character, a sure-fire hater of the Orlesians.  Thus, if we are to believe that Calian was having an "affair" with Empress Celene, that's a big affront to Loghain in a lot of ways: first, that's a big slap in the face to Anora, Calian's wife and Loghain's daughter.  

However, the stuff we learn at Ostagar makes me ponder my second point.... we know that Ostagar was a battle that was beyond winning.  But, maybe Loghain was afraid that a possible tryst between Calian and Celene would change the dynamic between the two countries.  Loghain knew someone strong needed to survive to keep Ferelden strong against another possible occuptation by Orlais.  But, if Cailan and Celene, say, had a child, it would unite the two countries like no other.  But this would pretty much mean that everything Maric and Loghain stood for, fought for, and bled for during the rebellion was pretty much in vain.  I could see how this whole situation could affect Loghain in a very personal, profound way.

However, I'm not totally sold on the sentiment that Calain wanted to keep Alistair safe so he could assume the throne.  But it's an intriguing thought, I wish there was more in-game material to use to discuss this point.

Modifié par LOST_PriNcEsS_, 04 février 2010 - 05:18 .

[errant_knight]

Maria13 wrote...

This thread picks up on subjects raised in some previous threads.  My view is that Cailan under wraps, is seeking new allies to break free: the Orlesian empress and the Grey Wardens while officially up front he's keeping up the glory hound/callow youth appearance.

From
that point of view, Alistair is a pawn, both in terms a concession to Duncan and perhaps someone to be tapped into as a resource in the future (a spy in the rank of the wardens? a future head of the wardens?).  It has been objected that the GWs are a far from optimal choice fo this because arising from the taint a) the life curtailment issue and virtual infertility.  On the first I wd say that 30 years in a society such as that of Ferelden is actually a lifetime and quite possibly a good one.  On the second, well not optimal but better than nought, Cailan has been unable to produce an heir, Alistair might just get lucky, who else is there?

On the other hand as well as the advantages I have already mentioned (a source within the GWs, potential leadership), and the things other have mentioned, the heroic appeal, the GWs are a transnational organisation and being within their ranks, Alistair could possibly be freerer to move and convey messages abroad, say to Orlais, than being trapped in the chantry.

In support of  my view that Cailan is playing a deep game, of the little we see of it, Cailan's decision making appears to be extremely prudent: He does not see the darkspawn as a blight because he has no evidence for it, he does not take Duncan at his word, nevertheless he leaves the door open on that possibility; he does not provide immediate revenge for the human noble ("after we've dealt with the darkspawn" which may be code
for: "I'll have to review how that fits into my strategy"); he immediately sends Alistair to the tower, protect my blood/or my future investment.

But the strategy is risky and he knows he is up against a master in Logain so he is playing everything extremely
cautiously. I think to some extent, Duncan is aware of what is going on, but, apart from the fact that he likes Cailan, he is happy to play along for the time being because it is good for the GWs and also for tackling this blight. Duncan too is astute and may well be wise to Cailan's game, we see him rebuking Alistair for getting people's backs up unnecessarily in camp and ordering him to the tower.

One thing that always strikes me when there is discussion of Alistair being a pawn, or when Anora repeatedly calls him biddable, is that these people trying to use him or dismiss him really don't know Alistair very well. They've certainly never seen the way he loses his temper when he disagrees with something, or draws a line in the sand when he feels strongly.

LOST_PriNcEsS_ wrote...

This thread is really interesting!  It's nice to see everyone getting along and not yelling at each other.

I also felt like puttin' in my two cents as I just finished the DLC yesterday:

I disagree with all the people that believe that Loghain had ambitions for the throne.  I agree with a previous poster who said something like "Loghain didn't really have love for Ferelden, but HATE for Orlais."  Reading the novels gives a lot of insight into Loghain's character, a sure-fire hater of the Orlesians.  Thus, if we are to believe that Calian was having an "affair" with Empress Celene, that's a big affront to Loghain in a lot of ways: first, that's a big slap in the face to Anora, Calian's wife and Loghain's daughter.  

However, the stuff we learn at Ostagar makes me ponder my second point.... we know that Ostagar was a battle that was beyond winning.  But, maybe Loghain was afraid that a possible tryst between Calian and Celene would change the dynamic between the two countries.  Loghain knew someone strong needed to survive to keep Ferelden strong against another possible occuptation by Orlais.  But, if Cailan and Celene, say, had a child, it would unite the two countries like no other.  But this would pretty much mean that everything Maric and Loghain stood for, fought for, and bled for during the rebellion was pretty much in vain.  I could see how this whole situation could affect Loghain in a very personal, profound way.

However, I'm not totally sold on the sentiment that Calain wanted to keep Alistair safe so he could assume the throne.  But it's an intriguing thought, I wish there was more in-game material to use to discuss this point.

I have a strong belief that Cailan had no intention of marrying the Empress, and I don't think that's what Eamon was suggesting. That union would be the end of Fereldan independence. If there was discussion of him marrying a relative of the Empress, I could buy that as a possibility, but not the Empress, herself. They don't want the two countries united. They want two independant states that aren't at each others throats. That doesn't preclude a flirtation, of course.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 05:29 .

[_Aine_]

errant_knight wrote...

One thing that always strikes me when there is discussion of Alistair being a pawn, or when Anora repeatedly calls him biddable, is that these people trying to use him or dismiss him really don't know Alistair very well. They've certainly never seen the way he loses his temper when he disagrees with something, or draws a line in the sand when he feels strongly.

That's very true.  

There was one playthrough I really talked to Alistair while still in Ostagar and he said something that after having already had several playthroughs, really hit home for me. He said his life had *always* been decided for him and he just had to do whatever was decided for him.   It makes it harder for me to have to be the one in the end to decide what he *should* do instead of what he wants to do.

Unfortunately, he has been pretty much trained in every way to live according to duty and what people say is his duty, than buck all that to make his own choices and to heck with the consequences.  When I think about that, it makes me sad for him.  He really lives in a cage, no matter how comfortable or not it may be.    I would have liked to be able to talk to him really indepth about becoming king or not - about his feelings not his duty.  Alas, it cannot be. 

What if they actually wanted to marry off Celene to ALISTAIR?! egads.  

Modifié par shantisands, 04 février 2010 - 05:34 .

[Ilvra]

Freckles04 wrote...

I don't know what to think of Elric's story in RtO. Again, perception comes into play. Did Cailan honestly believe the battle would not be won? Or was that Elric's take on why the King gave him the key? Perhaps Elric's own pessimism is colouring what he relates to the Warden.

This was actually my first impression -- a lot of what Elric said was his own guilt talking.  Cailan putting a contingency plan into place doesn't automatically equate to expectation of defeat.

Modifié par Ilvra, 04 février 2010 - 05:35 .

[errant_knight]

shantisands wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

One thing that always strikes me when there is discussion of Alistair being a pawn, or when Anora repeatedly calls him biddable, is that these people trying to use him or dismiss him really don't know Alistair very well. They've certainly never seen the way he loses his temper when he disagrees with something, or draws a line in the sand when he feels strongly.

That's very true.  

There was one playthrough I really talked to Alistair while still in Ostagar and he said something that after having already had several playthroughs, really hit home for me. He said his life had *always* been decided for him and he just had to do whatever was decided for him.   It makes it harder for me to have to be the one in the end to decide what he *should* do instead of what he wants to do.

Unfortunately, he has been pretty much trained in every way to live according to duty and what people say is his duty, than buck all that to make his own choices and to heck with the consequences.  When I think about that, it makes me sad for him.  He really lives in a cage, no matter how comfortable or not it may be.    I would have liked to be able to talk to him really indepth about becoming king or not - about his feelings not his duty.  Alas, it cannot be. 

What if they actually wanted to marry off Celene to ALISTAIR?! egads.  

What an unpleasant thought! Good thing that didn't happen.... But only the wardens could get Alistair away from the Chantry, and Celene probably wouldn't want a consort who was unable to give her children, given a choice.

I think what bothers him is the lack of choice, not the things that entail that duty. When he's changed to take his own feelings into account, he wants to be king more not less, in fact he see's Anora as not being an option. He really can't escape who he is. In a scenario where Anora becomes queen, I have to imagine that he would be racked with guilt every time she made a decision that he thought was bad for Fereldan.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 05:57 .