522 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Well done, everyone. I certainly would love it if there is much, much more to Cailan than meets the eye. That would put him squarely in Theirin territory. They are not just pretty boys out for glory, whatever they look like.



Something I wonder is that Duncan did not keep more of the GWs in reserve. He had to know how risky Cailan's strategy was. He DID know, since he voiced his doubts even to the newest recruit. Having the GWs up front was no doubt part of the plan to lure the darkspawn in, maybe even to lure the archdemon to show itself. The darkspawn sense the Wardens, so having a lot of them concentrated in one place was like a roast steak in the middle of a pack of hungry dogs. But why risk all of them? Riordan says that even having three of you together in Denerim would draw the darkspawn to you. Your thoughts, gentles?

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

Well done, everyone. I certainly would love it if there is much, much more to Cailan than meets the eye. That would put him squarely in Theirin territory. They are not just pretty boys out for glory, whatever they look like.

Something I wonder is that Duncan did not keep more of the GWs in reserve. He had to know how risky Cailan's strategy was. He DID know, since he voiced his doubts even to the newest recruit. Having the GWs up front was no doubt part of the plan to lure the darkspawn in, maybe even to lure the archdemon to show itself. The darkspawn sense the Wardens, so having a lot of them concentrated in one place was like a roast steak in the middle of a pack of hungry dogs. But why risk all of them? Riordan says that even having three of you together in Denerim would draw the darkspawn to you. Your thoughts, gentles?

I hadn't thought of that, good point... I don't know that it would have made a difference where the warden's were placed, the darkspawn would have sensed them wherever they were. The only other option would have been to keep them far away from the battle, which would have made them unavailable if needed. I think that might very well explain why the wardens were up front, though, along with the additional fact that no one kills darkspawn as efficiently as wardens. It seems a good bet that they wanted to draw out the archdemon. I have my doubts as to whether Loghain would have agreed to have his elite troops front and center, anyway, even if he hadn't  had treacherous intent.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 06:12 .

[RangerSG]

Addai67 wrote...

Well done, everyone. I certainly would love it if there is much, much more to Cailan than meets the eye. That would put him squarely in Theirin territory. They are not just pretty boys out for glory, whatever they look like.

Something I wonder is that Duncan did not keep more of the GWs in reserve. He had to know how risky Cailan's strategy was. He DID know, since he voiced his doubts even to the newest recruit. Having the GWs up front was no doubt part of the plan to lure the darkspawn in, maybe even to lure the archdemon to show itself. The darkspawn sense the Wardens, so having a lot of them concentrated in one place was like a roast steak in the middle of a pack of hungry dogs. But why risk all of them? Riordan says that even having three of you together in Denerim would draw the darkspawn to you. Your thoughts, gentles?

Why didn't he? Because Loghain planned for them to be at the front, the King wanted them at the front, and Duncan had no compelling reason not to put Grey Wardens anyplace else. Absent alternate orders, he had no grounds to request putting Wardens anyplace else. At least nothing he was at liberty to share with non-Wardens.

[AndreaDraco]

The thing that still baffles me about Ostagar is what David Gaider said about Loghain. He said that, up until the last minute on the battlefield, Loghain wasn't so sure that he was going to withdraw his troups. But since - even before Ostagar - he and Howe were already planning something (murdering the Couslands, making contacts with Uldred and his lackeys, poisoning Arl Eamon), if Loghain didn't withdraw, how were Howe and he going to proceed with their plan?



As for Cailan, I simply think that - since he was planning to put aside Anora (for Celene?) - he had the caution to hide the documents in case something bad happened to him. But, aside from this scruple, I really think that he thought a victory very possible thanks to his fabled Gray Wardens. I also think that glory - writing down his own name in history - drove both his desire to run in battle ahead of his army with the GW and his tentative plan to remove Anora (and Loghain, who certainly wasn't easy to manage) from power.



Another thing unclear. How much do you think that Loghain and Howe knew of the king's affairs with Orlais? Was it this (albeit partial, judging from Loghain's suprise in RtO) knowledge that inspired them to plot their rebellion? Certainly, I can see Howe only caring for his own personal gain, but maybe Loghain was loyal to Cailan before he knew about the rumors about the King and Orlais.

[errant_knight]

RangerSG wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well done, everyone. I certainly would love it if there is much, much more to Cailan than meets the eye. That would put him squarely in Theirin territory. They are not just pretty boys out for glory, whatever they look like.

Something I wonder is that Duncan did not keep more of the GWs in reserve. He had to know how risky Cailan's strategy was. He DID know, since he voiced his doubts even to the newest recruit. Having the GWs up front was no doubt part of the plan to lure the darkspawn in, maybe even to lure the archdemon to show itself. The darkspawn sense the Wardens, so having a lot of them concentrated in one place was like a roast steak in the middle of a pack of hungry dogs. But why risk all of them? Riordan says that even having three of you together in Denerim would draw the darkspawn to you. Your thoughts, gentles?

Why didn't he? Because Loghain planned for them to be at the front, the King wanted them at the front, and Duncan had no compelling reason not to put Grey Wardens anyplace else. Absent alternate orders, he had no grounds to request putting Wardens anyplace else. At least nothing he was at liberty to share with non-Wardens.

Yes, but that doesn't address why. Those who think Cailan was nothing more than a shallow glory hound (which I think ignores a lot of evidence to the contrary) might argue that he wanted them positioned there for maximum glory. That doesn't explain why Duncan also thought it was a good idea. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think it best. Those who think there was more than that to Cailan are going to be looking for more behind the choice, and again, why Duncan thought it was a good idea.

I think it's pretty obvious why Loghain wanted them there, of course.

AndreaDraco wrote...

The thing that still baffles me about Ostagar is what David Gaider said about Loghain. He said that, up until the last minute on the battlefield, Loghain wasn't so sure that he was going to withdraw his troups. But since - even before Ostagar - he and Howe were already planning something (murdering the Couslands, making contacts with Uldred and his lackeys, poisoning Arl Eamon), if Loghain didn't withdraw, how were Howe and he going to proceed with their plan?

Did he? That means that the positioning on the field wasn't aimed at killing the wardens and Cailan unless Loghain just wanted to keep that option available. That makes sense actually, saying he wasn't sure means that it was on his mind as a possibility. He would have wanted to keep that option open.

AndreaDraco wrote...
As for Cailan, I simply think that - since he was planning to put aside Anora (for Celene?) - he had the caution to hide the documents in case something bad happened to him. But, aside from this scruple, I really think that he thought a victory very possible thanks to his fabled Gray Wardens. I also think that glory - writing down his own name in history - drove both his desire to run in battle ahead of his army with the GW and his tentative plan to remove Anora (and Loghain, who certainly wasn't easy to manage) from power.

We don't have any evidence that Cailan planned on putting Anora aside. Only that Eamon suggested it and that suggestion angered Cailan. We also don't know what is meant by 'familiar tone' in the codex. 'Familiar' doesn't automatically equate to 'sexual/flirtatious.' It could merely mean thet they'd come to know each other well. Of course, there could also indicate a more intimate relationship, but that doesn't indicate anything about Cailan's intentions toward Anora. It's completely possible that the letter from Eamon and the letters from Celene are completely unrelated.

AndreaDraco wrote...
Another thing unclear. How much do you think that Loghain and Howe knew of the king's affairs with Orlais? Was it this (albeit partial, judging from Loghain's suprise in RtO) knowledge that inspired them to plot their rebellion? Certainly, I can see Howe only caring for his own personal gain, but maybe Loghain was loyal to Cailan before he knew about the rumors about the King and Orlais.

I think we know that Loghain absolutely didn't know, from his extreme reaction when he is taken back to Ostagar in playthroughs that allow for that. I find it hard to believe that Howe knew if Loghain didn't. Cailan seems to have kept the negotiations very quiet. That doesn't mean that Cailen just talking about peace with Orleis in a speculative way wasn't enough to push Loghain over the edge.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 06:42 .

[RangerSG]

Well, Howe did the Cousland massacre on his own. Loghain did not order or desire that. I would assume if Cailan and Duncan had survived, Loghain would've thrown over Howe as a point of political survival. There's no friendship between those two, only mutual goals. And if Howe proved too inept to carry off his part of the plan...



Loghain's plan as I see it was to isolate Cailan from his allies. Delay Eamon and Bryce Cousland from arriving so the Royalists are underrepresented in the Order of Battle. Put the Grey Wardens at the front where they can be crushed in their role as the "Anvil" of the battle plan.



Then with Duncan dead, and Eamon and Bryce Cousland cut off from the King, he "rescues" Cailan from the battle and spends some "quality time" with him to do what is necessary to show Cailan the dangers of his flirtations with Orlais and glory. What the quality time would entail, we don't know. But we do know he's not adverse to using Blood Mages or torture. So there's no reason to think he couldn't "convince" Cailan if it came down to it.



There's plenty of examples of abducting leaders and coercing them to your side in history. Loghain would know this. Of course, when Cailan insists on going to the front, Loghain washes his hands. And I'd find it hard to believe he didn't think at that moment, "Well, that makes things a lot easier."

[RangerSG]

errant_knight wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well done, everyone. I certainly would love it if there is much, much more to Cailan than meets the eye. That would put him squarely in Theirin territory. They are not just pretty boys out for glory, whatever they look like.

Something I wonder is that Duncan did not keep more of the GWs in reserve. He had to know how risky Cailan's strategy was. He DID know, since he voiced his doubts even to the newest recruit. Having the GWs up front was no doubt part of the plan to lure the darkspawn in, maybe even to lure the archdemon to show itself. The darkspawn sense the Wardens, so having a lot of them concentrated in one place was like a roast steak in the middle of a pack of hungry dogs. But why risk all of them? Riordan says that even having three of you together in Denerim would draw the darkspawn to you. Your thoughts, gentles?

Why didn't he? Because Loghain planned for them to be at the front, the King wanted them at the front, and Duncan had no compelling reason not to put Grey Wardens anyplace else. Absent alternate orders, he had no grounds to request putting Wardens anyplace else. At least nothing he was at liberty to share with non-Wardens.

Yes, but that doesn't address why. Those who think Cailan was nothing more than a shallow glory hound (which I think ignores a lot of evidence to the contrary) might argue that he wanted them positioned there for maximum glory. That doesn't explain why Duncan also thought it was a good idea. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think it best. Those who think there was more than that to Cailan are going to be looking for more behind the choice, and again, why Duncan thought it was a good idea.

I think it's pretty obvious why Loghain wanted them there, of course.

Cailan may not have been a "shallow" glory hound. But I think it's wrong to think he wasn't motivated by matching his father's reputation. So "glory hounding" should not be omitted from Cailan's motivations altogether.

And sometimes "why not?" is the best answer. Duncan has no freedom to disobey orders from Loghain and the King, especially when those orders put the Wardens in the best place to fight Darkspawn. It's what the Wardens are expected to do, and what their legend says they should do. So what choice does Duncan have but to acquiesce? Especially since he has no reason to believe the battle plan is a trap, as such. A flanking maneuver is a perfectly sound strategy.

[Addai]

Duncan is the Warden commander. He's not under Cailan's orders, though he takes them seriously. Obviously it is a story thing- the GWs need to be eliminated so it all rests on the shoulders of the PC and Alistair- but I would like to hear why Duncan thought it wouldn't be a good idea to have at least a quarter of his forces in reserve in Denerim rather than all at Ostagar. He had to know that it could go badly and then all would truly be lost.

[errant_knight]

RangerSG wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well done, everyone. I certainly would love it if there is much, much more to Cailan than meets the eye. That would put him squarely in Theirin territory. They are not just pretty boys out for glory, whatever they look like.

Something I wonder is that Duncan did not keep more of the GWs in reserve. He had to know how risky Cailan's strategy was. He DID know, since he voiced his doubts even to the newest recruit. Having the GWs up front was no doubt part of the plan to lure the darkspawn in, maybe even to lure the archdemon to show itself. The darkspawn sense the Wardens, so having a lot of them concentrated in one place was like a roast steak in the middle of a pack of hungry dogs. But why risk all of them? Riordan says that even having three of you together in Denerim would draw the darkspawn to you. Your thoughts, gentles?

Why didn't he? Because Loghain planned for them to be at the front, the King wanted them at the front, and Duncan had no compelling reason not to put Grey Wardens anyplace else. Absent alternate orders, he had no grounds to request putting Wardens anyplace else. At least nothing he was at liberty to share with non-Wardens.

Yes, but that doesn't address why. Those who think Cailan was nothing more than a shallow glory hound (which I think ignores a lot of evidence to the contrary) might argue that he wanted them positioned there for maximum glory. That doesn't explain why Duncan also thought it was a good idea. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think it best. Those who think there was more than that to Cailan are going to be looking for more behind the choice, and again, why Duncan thought it was a good idea.

I think it's pretty obvious why Loghain wanted them there, of course.

Cailan may not have been a "shallow" glory hound. But I think it's wrong to think he wasn't motivated by matching his father's reputation. So "glory hounding" should not be omitted from Cailan's motivations altogether.

And sometimes "why not?" is the best answer. Duncan has no freedom to disobey orders from Loghain and the King, especially when those orders put the Wardens in the best place to fight Darkspawn. It's what the Wardens are expected to do, and what their legend says they should do. So what choice does Duncan have but to acquiesce? Especially since he has no reason to believe the battle plan is a trap, as such. A flanking maneuver is a perfectly sound strategy.

Oh, there's no reason to believe that Cailan didn't enjoy a little glory, just that it wasn't his primary motivation, ir an unthinking one.

'Why not' isn't an answer, but your last sentence is: 'because it was a sound strategy.' People may agree or disagree on the soundness of the strategy, but that's an answer right there.

Addai67 wrote...

Duncan is the Warden commander. He's not under Cailan's orders, though he takes them seriously. Obviously it is a story thing- the GWs need to be eliminated so it all rests on the shoulders of the PC and Alistair- but I would like to hear why Duncan thought it wouldn't be a good idea to have at least a quarter of his forces in reserve in Denerim rather than all at Ostagar. He had to know that it could go badly and then all would truly be lost.

Very true. Duncan was entirely free to reject the strategy if he wished. He tlls Cailan that the plan will work, so he believes in it. I think he didn't keep wardens in reserve because they hoped to stop the darkspawn at Ostager, and because all the troops were needed to make victory possible. Also because the wardens had to die leaving only Alistair and the PC to defeat the blight.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 06:52 .

[RangerSG]

Addai67 wrote...

Duncan is the Warden commander. He's not under Cailan's orders, though he takes them seriously. Obviously it is a story thing- the GWs need to be eliminated so it all rests on the shoulders of the PC and Alistair- but I would like to hear why Duncan thought it wouldn't be a good idea to have at least a quarter of his forces in reserve in Denerim rather than all at Ostagar. He had to know that it could go badly and then all would truly be lost.

He may not be under Cailan's "orders" in political language. But the Wardens do not have a strong position in Ferelden. And if Duncan starts contravening the orders of the one person who does support the Wardens in Ferelden, how long do you think it would be before the Wardens found themselves back in Orlais? As a political reality, the Warden's position is tied to the good graces of the King of Ferelden. And that means obeying his orders within reason.

[errant_knight]

RangerSG wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Duncan is the Warden commander. He's not under Cailan's orders, though he takes them seriously. Obviously it is a story thing- the GWs need to be eliminated so it all rests on the shoulders of the PC and Alistair- but I would like to hear why Duncan thought it wouldn't be a good idea to have at least a quarter of his forces in reserve in Denerim rather than all at Ostagar. He had to know that it could go badly and then all would truly be lost.

He may not be under Cailan's "orders" in political language. But the Wardens do not have a strong position in Ferelden. And if Duncan starts contravening the orders of the one person who does support the Wardens in Ferelden, how long do you think it would be before the Wardens found themselves back in Orlais? As a political reality, the Warden's position is tied to the good graces of the King of Ferelden. And that means obeying his orders within reason.

'Within reason.' Exactly. Meaning that Duncan thought it was sound strategy and so went along with the plan. You realize that we're agreeing on this point, right?

[RangerSG]

Right, but I was disagreeing with Addai, the person I quoted. The danger of 3 way conversations. hehe

[errant_knight]

RangerSG wrote...

Right, but I was disagreeing with Addai, the person I quoted. The danger of 3 way conversations. hehe

Ah! Point taken! My bad.... heh.

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

Duncan is the Warden commander. He's not under Cailan's orders, though he takes them seriously. Obviously it is a story thing- the GWs need to be eliminated so it all rests on the shoulders of the PC and Alistair- but I would like to hear why Duncan thought it wouldn't be a good idea to have at least a quarter of his forces in reserve in Denerim rather than all at Ostagar. He had to know that it could go badly and then all would truly be lost.

I don't think either Cailan or Duncan quite anticipated that Logain would resort to open treachery to wrong foot them, they assumed they were dealing with a calculating schemer like themselves perhaps underestimating Logain's capacity for brinkmanship [or his madness]. 

[errant_knight]

Maria13 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Duncan is the Warden commander. He's not under Cailan's orders, though he takes them seriously. Obviously it is a story thing- the GWs need to be eliminated so it all rests on the shoulders of the PC and Alistair- but I would like to hear why Duncan thought it wouldn't be a good idea to have at least a quarter of his forces in reserve in Denerim rather than all at Ostagar. He had to know that it could go badly and then all would truly be lost.

I don't think either Cailan or Duncan quite anticipated that Logain would resort to open treachery to wrong foot them, they assumed they were dealing with a calculating schemer like themselves perhaps underestimating Logain's capacity for brinkmanship [or his madness]. 

I think you have the right of it. The idea that Loghain would risk the blight spreading across Fereldan and commit so great a betrayal probably probably seemed unthinkable. They were playing chess and Loghain was playing...I don't know.... He just nuked the board.

We've been talking about the level of doubt that Cailan may have felt about the battle.... The biggest argument I can see in favor of him having serious doubts, if not certainty, is the fact that he left Maric's sword with the treaties. The king should have been carrying the king's sword, but he wasn't. It could just have easily been found with his armor, but it was in the chest. To me, this says that he was mindful of preserving it for the next king of Fereldan and passing that legacy on. He may not have believed that the battle was unwinnable, as Elric said, but it argues that he was in enough doubt to carry a lesser sword into battle.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 07:31 .

[Freckles04]

errant_knight wrote...

I think you have the right of it. The idea that Loghain would risk the blight spreading across Fereldan and commit so great a betrayal probably probably seemed unthinkable. They were playing chess and Loghain was playing...I don't know.... He just nuked the board.

Hehe...this made me giggle.

[Carodej]

I'm glad this thread's still kept coming up with good ideas while I slept.    I see lots of new, good points, and I apologize for not stating my agreement with them, but this post will be too long as it is. 

@Jannamarie, I agree that bickering and mistrust would prevent a smooth integration of the mages into the troops.  Lack of knowledge on both sides will also probably reduce effectiveness.  But a simple "hit large concentrations of darkspawn, unless in an area with allies" is an obvious place to start.  Of course it is much more complicated than that to really be effective, but hopefully the soldier's would warm up to the mages after a few fireballs BBQed some darkspawn.

@sylvanaerie, I agree with you that sending a potential heir to become a GW does not seems the safest thing in the world.  But there are advantages, and the whole Chantry-templar-lyrium thng is a truly awful path in which to leave Alistair.  Random thought on this subject; from a dynastic point of view, if Cailan knew about the reduced GW fertility, it would make Alistair a worse potential heir, and also less of a potential threat to his throne.

@Lupus Canivus, but we know from David Gaider that the poisoning of Eamon was not to have killed Eamon, merely removed a Cailan supporter for the future Loghain-Cailan confrontation that Loghain was planning.

@draxynnus, IIRC, all the mages sent to the king were either Senior Enchanters or senior Enchanters.  Or in other words, they should have been some of the Circle's most experienced - and hence powerful - members.  But the way the game levels others based on your level, it really makes it difficult to say what their power is really like.  The only mages we see a lot of in the novels all seem quite powerful, but I'd be reluctant to try to guess their level.

@Freckles04, I don't think Loghain's plan was to kill Cailan.  I think he still hoped to convince Cailan of the error of his ways.  Of course if he couldn't, eventually Loghain would have done something more drastic.  But I think that Cailan being killed was more of a contingency plan in Loghain's mind, and not what he was primarily after.

Also, I was the one that stated something about Cailan being with Loghain could have started the charge.  I know what you mean about keeping the lid on the pot, but I thought it would be more about the charisma of the king and loyalty of the soldiers to Ferelden.  I mean if you saw your king running out to charge a horde of darkspawn all by himself while calling for you to accompany him, I do think a lot of soldiers would think it is the right thing to follow Cailan.  Loghain may have had the reptutation for the brains, but Cailan was the boss and something of a living embodiment of their beloved Ferelden.

@nijimeijer, I don't think Cailan would have used losing a battle - along with the lives of all those subjects of his - as a means to convince Loghain that Loghain was wrong.  It doesn't fit what we see of Cailan.  It also doesn't seem the sort of thing that would convince Loghain (and of course based on how the game plays, it does not).

@RangerSG, They darkspawn didn't actually use the tunnel to fall on the army from behind, which would have been a simple, sound military tactic I would have expected - assuming that their group mind was thinking in a military fashion at all.  Instead, the darkspawn took the Tower of Ishal.  If your cunning is high enough when you get to the second level there, you have an extra response to Cailan, something approximately like "Why are the darkspawn even in the tower unless they knew our plan?"  It's actually one of those things that make me wonder the real reason the darkspawn were there.

You are right though in that there are some indications of intelligence in their actions at various times.  They set traps, kite the players, etc.  But this is more the exception than the rule.  The vast majority of their attacks have all the subtlety of a club hitting you in the head.  They spot you, they attack.

@Rhinna, we don't know that Alistair is Fiona's son.  I know a lot of people want this to be true.  But there is simply no real evidence to support this theory.  It might be true, it might not.  While it does explain things, it also seems a bit off as I would have expected Maric to have made a better arrangement for his love child with Fiona.

@errant_knight, no, there is no known way to remove the taint.  It happened to Fiona, but how it happened was a mystery to everyone.  They had theories, but I think you'd probably have to do an Avernus and experiment on fellow GWs to gather enough data to learn a reliable process for making this happen.

@LOST_PriNcEsS_, the idea of an affair between Cailan and Celene is pure speculation.  It's possible, but the main evidence seems to be the glib liar Anora who will tell you Cailan has had affairs, combined with a crumpled note from Celene to Cailan that seemed more personal than formal in tone.  The affair is possible, but the evidence for it is very slim and is more one of interpretation than anything else.

We also do not know that Ostagar was beyond winning.  Many people say this, but that's not really proof, just their opinions.  They did not see it was lost.  They ran away before then.  Teyrn Loghain told his troops it was lost, most would likely believe that.  But Loghain would want this to be what people thought, that way he would not be shown as the traitor that he really was.   Elric says this too, of course he deserted when things were going poorly.  He also would have been in the thick of things, with no overall view of the battle.  I could go on, but...anyway, the darkspawn numbers seem to be even larger than expected and the odds probably were worse than expected.  But as the battle was not fought, and unless the devs give us some factual information on why the battle was beyond hope, we just do not know that it was lost.  (Though I would say the smart money would have been on the darkspawn.  )

@errant_knight, yeah, Alistair knows how to draw a line.  Like Alistair would never shimmy down the darkspawn line while dancing the remigold!  (Sorry, I just love that line in the game.   )

@shantisands, when I asked about marrying Alistair to Celene, Sten said "No."  I give Sten +200 approval. 

@Addai67, I see your point.  OTOH, keeping Cailan alive was pretty darn important to the GWs in Ferelden.  If Cailan died, that would leave the GW hating Loghain in a position to possibly kick the GWs out of Ferelden.  It's difficult to say what Duncan's exact priorties were at the time.

@AndreaDraco, David Gaider already said that Loghain was ignorant of Howe's plan to murder the Couslands.  And Loghain was planning something, but it appears to have been a flawed political maneuver to try to allow him to confront Cailan without Cailan having his supporters.  Though frankly I do agree that bloodshed was likely to occur, even if that was not technically Loghain's original plan.  Loghain's approach would be an epic fail as an attempt to try to change Cailan's mind.

Edit: some typos, though I probably still didn't catch them all

Modifié par Carodej, 04 février 2010 - 07:58 .

[errant_knight]

@errant_knight, yeah, Alistair knows how to draw a line. Like Alistair would never shimmer down the darkspawn line while dancing the remigold! (Sorry, I just love that line in the game. )

I love that line, too! I always tell him I'd like to see that because, y'know, I really would. And Duncan's sigh when he responds 'For you, maybe, but only if it's a pretty dress.' is priceless.

Okay, now I have to stop talking and go to work. Late, late, late.... I look forward to seeing where the discussion goes while I'm gone!

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 07:56 .

[Carodej]

errant_knight wrote...

@errant_knight, yeah, Alistair knows how to draw a line. Like Alistair would never shimmer down the darkspawn line while dancing the remigold! (Sorry, I just love that line in the game. )

I love that line, too! I always tell him I'd like to see that because, y'know, I really would. And Duncan's sigh when he responds 'For you, maybe, but only if it's a pretty dress.' is priceless.

Okay, now I have to stop talking and go to work. Late, late, late.... I look forward to seeing where the discussion goes while I'm gone!

My characters - especially my rogues - always like the idea too, but I confess its because they all realize what a great distraction it would be, allowing them to kill all the darkspawn as they roll around on the ground laughing.  Such great dialogue and voice acting there.

[melkathi]

I'm not sure who to quote for this.

Regarding the positioning of the Wardens in the battle of Ostagar. Where could they be besides front and center?
The plan was to draw the darkspawn in and make them believe that the people they were charging were all there is. Since darkspawn can sense the Grey Warden, placing a significant number of them anywhere else, would alert the darkspawn to those other troops and ruin the strategy.

[Carodej]

melkathi wrote...

I'm not sure who to quote for this.

Regarding the positioning of the Wardens in the battle of Ostagar. Where could they be besides front and center?
The plan was to draw the darkspawn in and make them believe that the people they were charging were all there is. Since darkspawn can sense the Grey Warden, placing a significant number of them anywhere else, would alert the darkspawn to those other troops and ruin the strategy.

Good point.  It would certainly rule out putting any GWs with Loghain's troops.  Though I suppose if Duncan was seriously thinking they'd lose the battle and that the archdemon wouldn't show, then he might have sent some on a "scouting mission" shortly before the battle.  Naturally said scouting mission would be towards Lothering.

[AndreaDraco]

Let me try and summarize the info we know for sure (either from in-game knowledge or thanks to David's insights):

Before Ostagar

1. Cailan had a familiar relationship with Empress Celene of Orlais and the two of them were planning an alliance between their two nations

2. Fearing that Cailan's naivete (in his eyes, of course) could open up the way from a new invasion from Orlais, Loghain was planning to isolate Cailan from his supporters in order to save Federlden (we don't know exactly what his plans were, but we know that he already made contact with Uldred, therefore implicating that Loghain knew that things could go awry and that he might need the Circle's support). Poisoning Arl Eamon was part of this plan.

3. In order to gain personal power, Arl Howe rallied in support to Loghain and, while he simply had to stall Teyrn Cousland, he murdered him to gain his domain.

4. Before being poisoned, Arl Eamon talked to Cailan about putting Anora aside.

At Ostagar

1. Cailan wanted to gain personal glory by defeating the blight alongside the Gray Wardens, but was also careful enough to hide his personal documents revealing his negotiations with Orlais.

2. Loghain decided that - if it came to the wrost - he would have abandoned Cailan at Ostagar to save the Feraldan army, then hoping that - given the dire darkspawn situations - the nobles would have rallied to support his war without resorting to foreign help.

3. In accord with Loghain, Uldred proposed to use the mages to lit the beacon so that - if it came to the worst - the beacon could not be lit, therefore giving Loghain an excuse for his strategic retreat [Unless I'm mistaken, this was confirmed by David Gaider in another thread]

4. When the beacon was indeed lit thanks to Alistair and the Warden, Loghain decided to retreat nonetheless in order to avoid losing the entire army to the horde.

After Ostagar

1. In order to gain support from the nobles of Ferelden, Loghain blamed Cailan's death on the Gray Wardens.

2. When it was apparent that many nobles weren't going to support him despite the blight, Loghain and Howe resorted to extreme measures and it was civil war.

Does it seems correct? Is it a good template upon which build speculations? Or even these facts are incorrect?

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 04 février 2010 - 08:29 .

[melkathi]

errant_knight wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

The thing that still baffles me about Ostagar is what David Gaider said about Loghain. He said that, up until the last minute on the battlefield, Loghain wasn't so sure that he was going to withdraw his troups. But since - even before Ostagar - he and Howe were already planning something (murdering the Couslands, making contacts with Uldred and his lackeys, poisoning Arl Eamon), if Loghain didn't withdraw, how were Howe and he going to proceed with their plan?

Did he? That means that the positioning on the field wasn't aimed at killing the wardens and Cailan unless Loghain just wanted to keep that option available. That makes sense actually, saying he wasn't sure means that it was on his mind as a possibility. He would have wanted to keep that option open.

Using my awesome powers of threadomancy, I bring you the two posts by David Gaider, AndreaDraco is refering to... I think.

post 1
and consequtive (spelling?)
post 2

IF those help the discussion, I prefer not to have statues errected in my honour, though I do accept praise and small gifts.

Though when talking about Ostagar, I always find it a good idea to keep this post by Mary Kirby in mind.

Modifié par melkathi, 04 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[Rhinna]

@Rhinna, we don't know that Alistair is Fiona's son.  I know a lot of people want this to be true.  But there is simply no real evidence to support this theory.  It might be true, it might not.  While it does explain things, it also seems a bit off as I would have expected Maric to have made a better arrangement for his love child with Fiona.

I don't want to derail the thread here, but when I read the book, it was so obvious - the blonde hair, the resemblance to Cailan...Maric would have been happy to raise the child in the palace...it was at Fiona's insistence that he be raised away from it all in relative anonymity, and Maric saw that it was the best thing to do for his newborn son. 

I am sure at some point Cailan was told.  He had to be - I think he was protecting Alastair at Ostagar, and Duncan too since he knew Alastair had royal blood.

If Alastair IS though..the son of just a servant and Maric's dalliance...where is his son with Fiona? :-)  another expansion perhaps? LOL

[Thourton]

This thread = win