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[Carodej]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Let me try and summarize the info we know for sure (either from in-game knowledge or thanks to David's insights):

Before Ostagar

1. Cailan had a familiar relationship with Empress Celene of Orlais and the two of them were planning an alliance between their two nations

2. Fearing that Cailan's naivete (in his eyes, of course) could open up the way from a new invasion from Orlais, Loghain was planning to isolate Cailan from his supporters in order to save Federlden (we don't know exactly what his plans were, but we know that he already made contact with Uldred, therefore implicating that Loghain knew that things could go awry and that he might need the Circle's support). Poisoning Arl Eamon was part of this plan.

3. In order to gain personal power, Arl Howe rallied in support to Loghain and, while he simply had to stall Teyrn Cousland, he murdered him to gain his domain.

4. Before being poisoned, Arl Eamon talked to Cailan about putting Anora aside.

At Ostagar

1. Cailan wanted to gain personal glory by defeating the blight alongside the Gray Wardens, but was also careful enough to hide his personal documents revealing his negotiations with Orlais.

2. Loghain decided that - if it came to the wrost - he would have abandoned Cailan at Ostagar to save the Feraldan army, then hoping that - given the dire darkspawn situations - the nobles would have rallied to support his war without resorting to foreign help.

3. In accord with Loghain, Uldred proposed to use the mages to lit the beacon so that - if it came to the worst - the beacon could not be lit, therefore giving Loghain an excuse for his strategic retreat [Unless I'm mistaken, this was confirmed by David Gaider in another thread]

4. When the beacon was indeed lit thanks to Alistair and the Warden, Loghain decided to retreat nonetheless in order to avoid losing the entire army to the horde.

After Ostagar

1. In order to gain support from the nobles of Ferelden, Loghain blamed Cailan's death on the Gray Wardens.

2. When it was apparent that many nobles weren't going to support him despite the blight, Loghain and Howe resorted to extreme measures and it was civil war.

Does it seems correct? Is it a good template upon which build speculations? Or even these facts are incorrect?

Fairly accurate.

A minor detai about Loghain, Uldred, and the beacon is that it was not Uldred that being there that was what Loghain wanted.  It was either Uldred or Loghain's men.  Either was fine with Loghain as it meant he controled whether or not the signal would be lit.

Also, the reason Loghain retreated is based on his (biased) opinion of the probable outcome of the battle.  Considering his goals and plans, we are left wondering exactly how objective and clear his judgment was at that point.

Loghain might actually have believed his lie about Cailan's death being part of a GW plot.  It's not logical, but Loghain is only human and has paranoid delusions about Orlais (the fact reality matches those delusions on occasion just reinforces this).  So while he probably said that at least in part to gain support and discredit those Orlesian spies , i.e. GWs, it's possible he actually believed he was telling the truth and was merely explaining things.  Though I do think you're right and his main motivation was to get off the hook, "I'm your only hope, it's the GWs that are traitors."

[_Aine_]

Rhinna wrote...

If Alastair IS though..the son of just a servant and Maric's dalliance...where is his son with Fiona? :-)  another expansion perhaps? LOL

*cough* perhaps Anders *cough* ? 

Curiously similar looks I say....and magical talent to boot.  Of course, could be simply appearance-win in action, giving us a saucy blonde young mage for a companion. Or, it could be something...with more intrigue behind it Time will tell?  

Thanks also for the links re: ostagar from Mary Kirby ( hope i am remembering the names properly and not butchering spellings here....) and Dave Gaider as it gives me some small solace about Loghain's intentions regarding Cailan and that battle.   All hail your awesome powers of thread necromancy!   

Modifié par shantisands, 04 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[Patriciachr34]

I've now spent my entire lunch break reading this thread and have just enough time for a brief comment. First, about Howe and the Couslands, the Cousland army was present and dispatched. Fergus was head of that army and would have represented the Teryn upon the news of his father's death. In addition, there would have been no way for Loghain to anticipate Fergus being ambushed while on patrol. Given this information I think that Howe's move was an independent action, outside of Loghain's plans. I think later Loghain saw a resource he could employ to consolidate power. Hence the "alliance between Howe and Loghain later on.



Second, I really believe that once the battle started the King was aware that he was not going to be able to take the field. I get this mostly from watching his face when he sees how little his archers and dogs impact the oncoming forces. He is visible concerned that this did not have the impact that he wished it did. This coupled with the comment from an NPC (I forget just who) that king's bravado was necessary to boost morale make me think that he knew this would be a difficult battle at best.



Finally, I get the impression the Loghain was seriously concerned about Cailin's reliance and relationship with the Orlesians. If you talk with Cailin's guard and persuade him to talk about the king, he let's you know that Cailin and Loghain have had a serious argument regarding the Orlesian's and Anora. This led me to believe, even before the documents at RTO, that Loghain suspected that Cailin's relationship with the Orlesians ran deeper than the need to defeat the blight. It also lead me to believe that Anora knew of it and approved. I do not think either Cailin or Anora would have anticipated that Loghain's hatred of the Orlesian's was so deep that we he would commit regicide, etc. This is just my two cents.

[Addai]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

I've now spent my entire lunch break reading this thread and have just enough time for a brief comment. First, about Howe and the Couslands, the Cousland army was present and dispatched. Fergus was head of that army and would have represented the Teryn upon the news of his father's death. In addition, there would have been no way for Loghain to anticipate Fergus being ambushed while on patrol. Given this information I think that Howe's move was an independent action, outside of Loghain's plans. I think later Loghain saw a resource he could employ to consolidate power. Hence the "alliance between Howe and Loghain later on.

I can't really believe that two such highly-placed nobles would independently decide on treachery of this magnitude, nor that Howe would so quickly be at Loghain's side after taking over Highever, unless they were in cahoots to begin with.  If Loghain was going to cement a claim to the throne, he would somehow have to deal with the 2nd most powerful family in Ferelden.  I think the plan was that Fergus' troops would be taken care of at Ostagar.  News would not arrive soon enough for Fergus to turn back before Ostagar, so Howe would have counted on at the very least a much weakened force, at best having Loghain in power where his false charges of Cousland treason would be made to stick. 

Modifié par Addai67, 04 février 2010 - 09:38 .

[Patriciachr34]

Addai67 wrote...

Patriciachr34 wrote...

I've now spent my entire lunch break reading this thread and have just enough time for a brief comment. First, about Howe and the Couslands, the Cousland army was present and dispatched. Fergus was head of that army and would have represented the Teryn upon the news of his father's death. In addition, there would have been no way for Loghain to anticipate Fergus being ambushed while on patrol. Given this information I think that Howe's move was an independent action, outside of Loghain's plans. I think later Loghain saw a resource he could employ to consolidate power. Hence the "alliance between Howe and Loghain later on.

I can't really believe that two such highly-placed nobles would independently decide on treachery of this magnitude, nor that Howe would so quickly be at Loghain's side after taking over Highever, unless they were in cahoots to begin with.  If Loghain was going to cement a claim to the throne, he would somehow have to deal with the 2nd most powerful family in Ferelden.  I think the plan was that Fergus' troops would be taken care of at Ostagar.  News would not arrive soon enough for Fergus to turn back before Ostagar, so Howe would have counted on at the very least a much weakened force, at best having Loghain in power where his false charges of Cousland treason would be made to stick. 

That is a good point.  However, I think Fergus would have to "confess" or conveniently disappear after battle for the traitor charges to stick.  Once the news of Howe's treachery comes to light, the nobles at the battle would have inveitable learned of this.  Not all of them fell at Ostagar (Lothering is abandoned by it's Lord).  So, there would still be questions about the confession or convenient disappearance of the last living Cousland heir.  I still believe that Howe is simply an opportunist and that Loghain took advantage of this to consolidate his position.  Additionally, Howe is known as slimy snake, and as Arl Eamon pointed out, without evidence an accusation (or in this case a death confession) would only go so far.

[Carodej]

Rhinna wrote...

@Rhinna, we don't know that Alistair is Fiona's son.  I know a lot of people want this to be true.  But there is simply no real evidence to support this theory.  It might be true, it might not.  While it does explain things, it also seems a bit off as I would have expected Maric to have made a better arrangement for his love child with Fiona.

I don't want to derail the thread here, but when I read the book, it was so obvious - the blonde hair, the resemblance to Cailan...Maric would have been happy to raise the child in the palace...it was at Fiona's insistence that he be raised away from it all in relative anonymity, and Maric saw that it was the best thing to do for his newborn son. 

I am sure at some point Cailan was told.  He had to be - I think he was protecting Alastair at Ostagar, and Duncan too since he knew Alastair had royal blood.

If Alastair IS though..the son of just a servant and Maric's dalliance...where is his son with Fiona? :-)  another expansion perhaps? LOL

It's not that this isn't a good theory, it does make a certain amount of sense.  However, it's never confirmed anywhere and potentially contradicted by Goldanna information.  I would not be surprised if Alistair is Fiona's child, nor would I be surprised if Ander's was, or someone else for that matter.  We are just given too little information to be sure if Fiona was really Cailan's mother.

[RangerSG]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Patriciachr34 wrote...

I've now spent my entire lunch break reading this thread and have just enough time for a brief comment. First, about Howe and the Couslands, the Cousland army was present and dispatched. Fergus was head of that army and would have represented the Teryn upon the news of his father's death. In addition, there would have been no way for Loghain to anticipate Fergus being ambushed while on patrol. Given this information I think that Howe's move was an independent action, outside of Loghain's plans. I think later Loghain saw a resource he could employ to consolidate power. Hence the "alliance between Howe and Loghain later on.

I can't really believe that two such highly-placed nobles would independently decide on treachery of this magnitude, nor that Howe would so quickly be at Loghain's side after taking over Highever, unless they were in cahoots to begin with.  If Loghain was going to cement a claim to the throne, he would somehow have to deal with the 2nd most powerful family in Ferelden.  I think the plan was that Fergus' troops would be taken care of at Ostagar.  News would not arrive soon enough for Fergus to turn back before Ostagar, so Howe would have counted on at the very least a much weakened force, at best having Loghain in power where his false charges of Cousland treason would be made to stick. 

That is a good point.  However, I think Fergus would have to "confess" or conveniently disappear after battle for the traitor charges to stick.  Once the news of Howe's treachery comes to light, the nobles at the battle would have inveitable learned of this.  Not all of them fell at Ostagar (Lothering is abandoned by it's Lord).  So, there would still be questions about the confession or convenient disappearance of the last living Cousland heir.  I still believe that Howe is simply an opportunist and that Loghain took advantage of this to consolidate his position.  Additionally, Howe is known as slimy snake, and as Arl Eamon pointed out, without evidence an accusation (or in this case a death confession) would only go so far.

The charge was leveled against Bryce. Of course, the point of the charge was only to get Howe elevated. And I think it was Howe's assumption as well that Fergus and little Cousland would be killed at Ostagar. He had no idea that both would escape. In any case, Loghain's plan ended up needing to be able to sweep aside all "Royalists" to work anyway.

As for Howe and Loghain being in cahoots. Yes they were. My point was only that Loghain did not authorize or know about Howe's planning to massacre the Couslands. I have no problem believing Loghain told Howe to "delay" Bryce Cousland however he could. And then Howe took the liberty of reading into the word "delay" the meaning "assassinate."

[errant_knight]

In Howe's mind, 'delay' and 'assassinate' are probably synonyms. I suspect that the slimiest notions were Howe's idea, like hiring the Crows, although we have no reason to think the poisoning of Eamon wasn't Loghain's idea.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 février 2010 - 11:29 .

[RangerSG]

errant_knight wrote...

In Howe's mind, 'delay' and 'assassinate' are probably synonyms. I suspect that the slimiest notions were Howe's idea, like hiring the Crows, although we have no reason to think the poisoning of Eamon wasn't Loghain's idea.

Actually the poisoning was confirmed as Loghain's idea. It's just that the poisoning was not meant to be fatal.

Moving from dev-provided info to personal conjecture, I would imagine that is the reason the elf was monitoring things. He would let Loghain know if the poisoning went too far (or not far enough) and whether or not it had the desired effect of immobilizing Eamon's forces. Loghain could never have anticipated that Connor would be approached by a demon and unleash the Fade on Redcliffe.

Modifié par RangerSG, 05 février 2010 - 02:37 .

[errant_knight]

RangerSG wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

In Howe's mind, 'delay' and 'assassinate' are probably synonyms. I suspect that the slimiest notions were Howe's idea, like hiring the Crows, although we have no reason to think the poisoning of Eamon wasn't Loghain's idea.

Actually the poisoning was confirmed as Loghain's idea. It's just that the poisoning was not meant to be fatal.

Moving from dev-provided info to personal conjecture, I would imagine that is the reason the elf was monitoring things. He would let Loghain know if the poisoning went too far (or not far enough) and whether or not it had the desired effect of immobilizing Eamon's forces. Loghain could never have anticipated that Connor would be approached by a demon and unleash the Fade on Redcliffe.

Loghain didn't anticipate a lot of things he caused, and yet, he says he'd do the same again, knowing the result.... Yeah, that's a guy you want at the helm.

[RangerSG]

errant_knight wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

In Howe's mind, 'delay' and 'assassinate' are probably synonyms. I suspect that the slimiest notions were Howe's idea, like hiring the Crows, although we have no reason to think the poisoning of Eamon wasn't Loghain's idea.

Actually the poisoning was confirmed as Loghain's idea. It's just that the poisoning was not meant to be fatal.

Moving from dev-provided info to personal conjecture, I would imagine that is the reason the elf was monitoring things. He would let Loghain know if the poisoning went too far (or not far enough) and whether or not it had the desired effect of immobilizing Eamon's forces. Loghain could never have anticipated that Connor would be approached by a demon and unleash the Fade on Redcliffe.

Loghain didn't anticipate a lot of things he caused, and yet, he says he'd do the same again, knowing the result.... Yeah, that's a guy you want at the helm.

Hey, I never said I wanted to take Ser Cauthrein's place...in fact I'm in the camp that thinks she can't be killed enough for her stupidity. All I've ever said is that when Alistair loses it in front of the nobles at the Landsmeet, any advantage you may have had in keeping him over Loghain at that point is gone.

[errant_knight]

RangerSG wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

In Howe's mind, 'delay' and 'assassinate' are probably synonyms. I suspect that the slimiest notions were Howe's idea, like hiring the Crows, although we have no reason to think the poisoning of Eamon wasn't Loghain's idea.

Actually the poisoning was confirmed as Loghain's idea. It's just that the poisoning was not meant to be fatal.

Moving from dev-provided info to personal conjecture, I would imagine that is the reason the elf was monitoring things. He would let Loghain know if the poisoning went too far (or not far enough) and whether or not it had the desired effect of immobilizing Eamon's forces. Loghain could never have anticipated that Connor would be approached by a demon and unleash the Fade on Redcliffe.

Loghain didn't anticipate a lot of things he caused, and yet, he says he'd do the same again, knowing the result.... Yeah, that's a guy you want at the helm.

Hey, I never said I wanted to take Ser Cauthrein's place...in fact I'm in the camp that thinks she can't be killed enough for her stupidity. All I've ever said is that when Alistair loses it in front of the nobles at the Landsmeet, any advantage you may have had in keeping him over Loghain at that point is gone.

Heh, what did I say that made you think I was calling you Loghain's best bud? I wasn't, honest! I was just musing on Loghain's nature....

Regarding Ser Cautherine, I have gone from neutral with her to a certain contempt over several game plays. I find that  my position has hardened on some things. We'll have to agree to disagree on Alistair at Landmeet. I'm with him entirely, and if the game would let me, I'd probably be yelling louder.

[draxynnus]

My connection's been unreliable lately, so this has been pieced together over multiple sittings:

Freckles04 wrote...



Someone also brought up the idea that the reason the Chantry was so reluctant to let Alistair go was because he was the son of a king, and that gave them power -- I think that's right on target and answers a question I'd had for a long time about why the Grand Cleric was so mad. Thanks!

That's one possibility, but I don't think it was that common knowledge that Alistair was an heir to the throne.



From my understanding of Alistair's recruitment, the Grand Cleric was practically waving full Templars under Duncan's nose. I suspect that her motivations was that she wanted to infiltrate the Grey Wardens by getting a full (which is to say, lyrium-addicted and thus more controllable) Templar into their ranks. Picking up Alistair, however - someone who had most of the training of a Templar without the lyrium addiction and whose loyalties were already suspect - meant that the Wardens came out ahead instead: Instead of recruiting a full Templar that could be influenced by the Chantry and become a mole in the Warden ranks, they instead get a trained Templar who puts loyalty to the Wardens well over loyalty to the Chantry and who may well be willing to let Templar secrets slip to the Wardens.



It's also possible that the Grand Cleric wasn't actually up to anything underhanded, but just wanted to make sure that the Templar recruited into the Wardens would be one that would uphold the reputation of the Templars, and...well, we know what Alistair's like. Either way, though, Alistair certainly represented the risk of Templar techniques spreading outside the Chantry in a way that most Templars probably wouldn't.

RangerSG wrote...

I don't think the exchange between Duncan and Cailan was a false one. They each seem to trust the other, at least to be who they are.

A common piece of advice for people assuming a role is to never drop the facade, even when you think nobody is looking. Partially because someone might be looking, and partially because it's easier to stay "in-character" when you remain in character even when you don't have to.

AndreaDraco wrote…



The thing that still baffles me about Ostagar is what David Gaider said about Loghain. He said that, up until the last minute on the battlefield, Loghain wasn't so sure that he was going to withdraw his troops. But since - even before Ostagar - he and Howe were already planning something (murdering the Couslands, making contacts with Uldred and his lackeys, poisoning Arl Eamon), if Loghain didn't withdraw, how were Howe and he going to proceed with their plan?

Loghain didn’t know about the Cousland thing until after it had happened.



Regarding the rest… Loghain’s other plans weren’t actually contingent on Cailen dying – his ideal end result was a Cailen who was severed from all “bad influences” so that Loghain could bring him around to his point of view.



As for not being sure he was going to withdraw his troops – well, abandoning your king, your son-in-law, and the son of your friend isn’t something you do lightly. It doesn’t surprise me that, however good his reasons were, Loghain would have been having second thoughts right up until the moment of decision came…

errant_knight wrote…



Very true. Duncan was entirely free to reject the strategy if he wished. He tells Cailan that the plan will work, so he believes in it. I think he didn't keep wardens in reserve because they hoped to stop the darkspawn at Ostager, and because all the troops were needed to make victory possible. Also because the wardens had to die leaving only Alistair and the PC to defeat the blight.

Another possibility is that he felt that if the Ferelden wardens did get wiped out, the Orlesian wardens would pick up the slack.



Furthermore, Duncan’s main priority – apart from slaying the Archdemon if it showed up – seems like it might have been “keep Cailen alive”. With Cailen dead…well, it doesn’t matter if there are ten Grey Wardens or two left in Ferelden if Loghain imprisons them or kicks them out. Thus, Duncan’s strategy may have been to keep all the Grey Wardens close enough to Cailen so as to maximise the chance of having one close enough to help if Cailen got into trouble – or even to form a sacrificial rearguard if Cailen needed to be extracted.

Carodej wrote…



@draxynnus, IIRC, all the mages sent to the king were either Senior Enchanters or senior Enchanters. Or in other words, they should have been some of the Circle's most experienced - and hence powerful - members. But the way the game levels others based on your level, it really makes it difficult to say what their power is really like. The only mages we see a lot of in the novels all seem quite powerful, but I'd be reluctant to try to guess their level.

On the other hand…the level scaling does have minimums. There are areas you’re not supposed to go until you’ve reached a certain minimum level.



That being the case, I’d expect that if the mages we meet – both hostile (including abominated Uldred) and friendly – were too low in level for the lore, BioWare would have made the tower a higher-level area. Since you can get in there almost right after Ostagar if you want to and it doesn’t hit a barrier scaling down, I think it’s reasonable to presume that a 5-10 level range would be a reasonable average for the mages at Ostagar. Now, these mages could certainly still be powerful, and they can certainly hit the top-level spells, but they are still likely to be lacking in breadth – if a given mage has specialised in more subtle effects from the Primal, Creation or Entropy schools, it’s possible they could in fact be making a strong contribution without doing anything as overt as tossing a fireball.

Addai67 wrote…



I can't really believe that two such highly-placed nobles would independently decide on treachery of this magnitude, nor that Howe would so quickly be at Loghain's side after taking over Highever, unless they were in cahoots to begin with.

It’s possible that Howe knew what Loghain was planning, and planned accordingly.



As mentioned earlier in this thread – Loghain wanted Cailen isolated from his allies, and the Couslands may have been counted among these allies. Before Ostagar, however, Loghain seemed to be holding back from doing anything that can’t be undone – the poisoning of Arl Eamon, for instance, was intended to put him in a coma rather than kill him. As RangerSG says, it’s possible, even likely, that Loghain and Howe conspired to delay the Couslands, but Howe decided on his own bat to take it much further than Loghain had intended. It may even be that Loghain was a little careless with his wording (saying to “take them out of the picture” or something similar) and Howe interpreted it the way he wanted to.

[Thor Rand Al]

Love reading this cause it definitely makes your mind think lol... But I am curious about 1 thing I see a lot of people mentioning... Where exactly does it say that Cailan was having an affair with the Empress... I know he was talking to her about a peace treaty, about having the army help with the darkspawn n the blight but reading those letter's not one of them even sounded remotely like there was anything else going on...

"It was Anora who inspired the Empress Celene of Orlais to declare, ""Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among bramble's."" This is from the codex that describes Anora...

I'm not saying that Cailan was a perfect husband but even when Eamon mentions in his letter to Cailan "time to put Anora aside" there was an argument between them n they hadn't talked in about a year... I don't think Cailan was wanting to get rid of Anora n I don't think Cailan was having an affair with the Empress, I think that was because Cailan honestly wanted this damn feud with Orlais over with... I honestly think Cailan was trying to do what was best for Ferelden n if that meant making peace once in for all with Orlais than that's what he was going to do but unfortunately Loghain's hatred of Orlais was so strong he put a stop to that...

[AndreaDraco]

The flirt is a speculation stemmed from the "familiar tone" (as the Codex puts it) of the letters between the two of them. Then, I'm pretty sure that there was something going one between C. & C., but maybe that's just me

[Lotion Soronarr]

draxynnus wrote...

From my understanding of Alistair's recruitment, the Grand Cleric was practically waving full Templars under Duncan's nose. I suspect that her motivations was that she wanted to infiltrate the Grey Wardens by getting a full (which is to say, lyrium-addicted and thus more controllable) Templar into their ranks. Picking up Alistair, however - someone who had most of the training of a Templar without the lyrium addiction and whose loyalties were already suspect - meant that the Wardens came out ahead instead: Instead of recruiting a full Templar that could be influenced by the Chantry and become a mole in the Warden ranks, they instead get a trained Templar who puts loyalty to the Wardens well over loyalty to the Chantry and who may well be willing to let Templar secrets slip to the Wardens.

It's also possible that the Grand Cleric wasn't actually up to anything underhanded, but just wanted to make sure that the Templar recruited into the Wardens would be one that would uphold the reputation of the Templars, and...well, we know what Alistair's like. Either way, though, Alistair certainly represented the risk of Templar techniques spreading outside the Chantry in a way that most Templars probably wouldn't.

Fro mwhat I gather, there never was much love between Al and the Grand Cleric. And becoming a Grey Warden is considered a honor.
It's not difficult to see why the GC would be furious.

[Mistersunshine]

Rhinna wrote...

If Alastair IS though..the son of just a servant and Maric's dalliance...where is his son with Fiona?  

Right here:  

[errant_knight]

Rather than quoting from everyone, I'll just add my thoughts to the discussion that occurred while I was sleeping....

'Familiar tone' can mean anything outside of 'formal.' We simply don't have any evidence about what their relationship was. We also have no evidence that Cailan had changed his mind about putting Anora aside, or that there's any connection between the familiar tone and Eamon's proposition that Cailan do so. In any case, I'm convinced that Cailan wouldn't hand Fereldan over to the Orleisians in such a way.

I don't think Duncan would ever have accepted a full Templar--a lyrium addict--into the grey wardens. The addiction alone could be problematic and would always make their loyalty suspect. Could a lyrium addict even survive the joining? We don't know.... The extent of her anger makes me think that the Grand Cleric had specific plans for Alistair that were foiled by Duncan. (Poor Alistair, he's right. His birth did shape every aspect of his life, from being thrown out of his home to, potentially, being recuited.)

I agree with Draxynnus's take on Loghain's plan. Cailan's death was probably not the original goal. He was certainly willing to go there when that was the way things shook out, though. It takes a certain kind of man to be willing to kill his king--the son of a friend, and his son-in-law, to have that plan waiting if necessary.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 février 2010 - 04:54 .

[GregorLightbringer]

I haven't read through all posts so forgive me if this point has been made and I'm repeating it. There are 2 other corespondences that are in your codex when you pick up the first one: One mentions about how Arl Eamon is trying to get Calin to "put Anora aside" and find someone else to make an heir to the throne. Eamon says that since Anora is entering her 30th year that child bearing and thus getting too old to have a child. I wonder if there was other motivations to this? Makes me wonder if an affair might have started with the Empress of Orlais? Theories mind you.

[errant_knight]

GregorLightbringer wrote...

I haven't read through all posts so forgive me if this point has been made and I'm repeating it. There are 2 other corespondences that are in your codex when you pick up the first one: One mentions about how Arl Eamon is trying to get Calin to "put Anora aside" and find someone else to make an heir to the throne. Eamon says that since Anora is entering her 30th year that child bearing and thus getting too old to have a child. I wonder if there was other motivations to this? Makes me wonder if an affair might have started with the Empress of Orlais? Theories mind you.

Heh, yes we have been discussing that. In fact. I mentioned it in the post preceeding yours.

Edit: Just realized that I failed to acknowledge that many agree with your idea on this. My bad. /end edit

My personal take is that while Cailan might marry a Fereldan to the Empress, he wouldn't marry her himself. That would effectively join the two countries, a situation in which Fereldan would be subservient. Some have suggested that he intended to propose a match between her and Alistair, but I really have to wonder if she'd consider marriage to a bastard, even a bastard son of the King of Fereldan. And, if he had come to the conclusion that Eamon was right about Anora's chances of conception, he may well have decided to make Alistair his heir, in which case he wouldn't want to marry Alistair to the Empress for the same political reasons that he wouldn't want to marry her himself.

We simply don't have any real evidence to know these things, though. Informal could mean a lot of things, and all we know about the suggestion that Cailan put Anora aside is that Cailan reacted badly to the suggestion.

I had a thought regarding Eamon's motivation in sending Alistair to the chantry. While Isolde's mistreatment of him may have been a concern, if that was the only issue, he could easily have sent Alistair to Bann Teagan's holding, where Alistair would probably have been quite happy. He doesn't do that. I think that's probably significant.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 février 2010 - 06:37 .

[GregorLightbringer]

errant_knight wrote...

GregorLightbringer wrote...

I haven't read through all posts so forgive me if this point has been made and I'm repeating it. There are 2 other corespondences that are in your codex when you pick up the first one: One mentions about how Arl Eamon is trying to get Calin to "put Anora aside" and find someone else to make an heir to the throne. Eamon says that since Anora is entering her 30th year that child bearing and thus getting too old to have a child. I wonder if there was other motivations to this? Makes me wonder if an affair might have started with the Empress of Orlais? Theories mind you.

Heh, yes we have been discussing that. In fact. I mentioned it in the post preceeding yours.
My personal take is that while Cailan might marry a Fereldan to the Empress, he wouldn't marry her himself. That would effectively join the two countries, a situation in which Fereldan would be subservient. Some have suggested that he intended to propose a match between her and Alistair, but I really have to wonder if she'd consider marriage to a bastard, even a bastard son of the King of Fereldan. And, if he had come to the conclusion that Eamon was right about Anora's chances of conception, he may well have decided to make Alistair his heir, in which case he wouldn't want to marry Alistair to the Empress for the same political reasons that he wouldn't want to marry her himself.

We simply don't have any real evidence to know these things, though. Informal could mean a lot of things, and all we know about the suggestion that Cailan put Anora aside is that Cailan reacted badly to the suggestion.

Yep. Pretty much that. It also makes me wonder to the actual relationship between Cailan and Anora. In one conversation with her, you ask her if she loved him and basically said "yes". You suggest to her about being king and she tells you to "talk to Alistar. He might bend over for you."  It makes me think sometimes she has something going with that Orlesian maid of hers.

[errant_knight]

GregorLightbringer wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

GregorLightbringer wrote...

I haven't read through all posts so forgive me if this point has been made and I'm repeating it. There are 2 other corespondences that are in your codex when you pick up the first one: One mentions about how Arl Eamon is trying to get Calin to "put Anora aside" and find someone else to make an heir to the throne. Eamon says that since Anora is entering her 30th year that child bearing and thus getting too old to have a child. I wonder if there was other motivations to this? Makes me wonder if an affair might have started with the Empress of Orlais? Theories mind you.

Heh, yes we have been discussing that. In fact. I mentioned it in the post preceeding yours.
My personal take is that while Cailan might marry a Fereldan to the Empress, he wouldn't marry her himself. That would effectively join the two countries, a situation in which Fereldan would be subservient. Some have suggested that he intended to propose a match between her and Alistair, but I really have to wonder if she'd consider marriage to a bastard, even a bastard son of the King of Fereldan. And, if he had come to the conclusion that Eamon was right about Anora's chances of conception, he may well have decided to make Alistair his heir, in which case he wouldn't want to marry Alistair to the Empress for the same political reasons that he wouldn't want to marry her himself.

We simply don't have any real evidence to know these things, though. Informal could mean a lot of things, and all we know about the suggestion that Cailan put Anora aside is that Cailan reacted badly to the suggestion.

Yep. Pretty much that. It also makes me wonder to the actual relationship between Cailan and Anora. In one conversation with her, you ask her if she loved him and basically said "yes". You suggest to her about being king and she tells you to "talk to Alistar. He might bend over for you."  It makes me think sometimes she has something going with that Orlesian maid of hers.

She says that!? Oh, snap! Harsh.... In my male playthrough, I didn't try and make myself king, so I never saw that. Wow. I initially thought she might have been in on Loghain's plans, but her manner when asking Loghain if he killed Cailan seemed genuine. I don't think she respected Cailan much, but she did seem to have cared about him in an Anora kind of way. Still, she wants to be queen rather too much. The maid says she 'loved' him, but as with everything else in this game, that could mean a lot of things. I don't trust much that she says, I'm afraid. (I meant Anora here, but I don't trust the maid, either.)

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[errant_knight]

Colenda wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

GregorLightbringer wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

GregorLightbringer wrote...

I haven't read through all posts so forgive me if this point has been made and I'm repeating it. There are 2 other corespondences that are in your codex when you pick up the first one: One mentions about how Arl Eamon is trying to get Calin to "put Anora aside" and find someone else to make an heir to the throne. Eamon says that since Anora is entering her 30th year that child bearing and thus getting too old to have a child. I wonder if there was other motivations to this? Makes me wonder if an affair might have started with the Empress of Orlais? Theories mind you.

Heh, yes we have been discussing that. In fact. I mentioned it in the post preceeding yours.
My personal take is that while Cailan might marry a Fereldan to the Empress, he wouldn't marry her himself. That would effectively join the two countries, a situation in which Fereldan would be subservient. Some have suggested that he intended to propose a match between her and Alistair, but I really have to wonder if she'd consider marriage to a bastard, even a bastard son of the King of Fereldan. And, if he had come to the conclusion that Eamon was right about Anora's chances of conception, he may well have decided to make Alistair his heir, in which case he wouldn't want to marry Alistair to the Empress for the same political reasons that he wouldn't want to marry her himself.

We simply don't have any real evidence to know these things, though. Informal could mean a lot of things, and all we know about the suggestion that Cailan put Anora aside is that Cailan reacted badly to the suggestion.

Yep. Pretty much that. It also makes me wonder to the actual relationship between Cailan and Anora. In one conversation with her, you ask her if she loved him and basically said "yes". You suggest to her about being king and she tells you to "talk to Alistar. He might bend over for you."  It makes me think sometimes she has something going with that Orlesian maid of hers.

She says that!? Oh, snap! Harsh.... In my male playthrough, I didn't try and make myself king, so I never saw that. Wow. I initially thought she might have been in on Loghain's plans, but her manner when asking Loghain if he killed Cailan seemed genuine. I don't think she respected Cailan much, but she did seem to have cared about him in an Anora kind of way. Still, she wants to be queen rather too much. The maid says she 'loved' him, but as with everything else in this game, that could mean a lot of things. I don't trust much that she says, I'm afraid. (I meant Anora here, but I don't trust the maid, either.)

Loghain says (yeah, we've got tons of reliable sources here ) that Cailan and Anora were friends when they were children. His account of Anora's life rather makes it sound as if Cailan was Anora's only friend. 

Ah, well that would explain both his anger at the idea of putting her aside, and her reaction to the idea that her father killed Cailan, even if their relationship wasn't one of romantic love. That wouldn't precude having real affection for each other. It is hard to decide what's true when your only sources of information are Loghain, Anora and her maid, though, isn't it?

[Thourton]

errant_knight wrote...

'Familiar tone' can mean anything outside of 'formal.' We simply don't have any evidence about what their relationship was. We also have no evidence that Cailan had changed his mind about putting Anora aside, or that there's any connection between the familiar tone and Eamon's proposition that Cailan do so. In any case, I'm convinced that Cailan wouldn't hand Fereldan over to the Orleisians in such a way.

This "affair" is based on two things: one, the "familiar tone" mentioned in the letters and two, Loghain blatantly accuses Cailan of having an affair if you take him with you to RtO.

Personally, I don't see the connection and definitely don't find it to be obvious in any manner -- when Loghain started spitting curses against Cailan's affair, I very quickly opened up my codex to see what the hell the man was raving about and even still dismissed his accusations.