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[_Aine_]

With the *familiar tone* in the last correspondence as opposed to the proper formal greetings in the first we are privy to, one thing is certain: they have been speaking enough that it has gone from a professional/formal tone to a familiar one.

There are two points poking their way towards the empress/king relationship being more than professional, though that is where they cease, they indicate a liklihood of it, not *proof* of it, and those are two different things entirely....but anyway.....
1) The familiar tone would have been outside the realm of norm of the time period. Even friends would have used proper greetings in correspondence. Of course, this only is accurate *if* the somewhat medieval time period translates to this story, which it may well not. Still, worthy of a mention just in case
2) The crumpled note. This showed emotion on the part of Cailan ( if he was indeed the one crumpling the paper up, which we also don't know definitively) as a person who had no emotional investment would not get that upset. Emotional investment of course may have zilch to do with love.

There is also no proof that Anora had zero idea of the correspondence either. She was a scarily savvy political woman, well bred with her fathers shrewd intelligence. That makes for a formidable opponent. We simply don't have enough proof to know for sure.

Modifié par shantisands, 05 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[GregorLightbringer]

errant_knight wrote...

Colenda wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

GregorLightbringer wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

GregorLightbringer wrote...

I haven't read through all posts so forgive me if this point has been made and I'm repeating it. There are 2 other corespondences that are in your codex when you pick up the first one: One mentions about how Arl Eamon is trying to get Calin to "put Anora aside" and find someone else to make an heir to the throne. Eamon says that since Anora is entering her 30th year that child bearing and thus getting too old to have a child. I wonder if there was other motivations to this? Makes me wonder if an affair might have started with the Empress of Orlais? Theories mind you.

Heh, yes we have been discussing that. In fact. I mentioned it in the post preceeding yours.
My personal take is that while Cailan might marry a Fereldan to the Empress, he wouldn't marry her himself. That would effectively join the two countries, a situation in which Fereldan would be subservient. Some have suggested that he intended to propose a match between her and Alistair, but I really have to wonder if she'd consider marriage to a bastard, even a bastard son of the King of Fereldan. And, if he had come to the conclusion that Eamon was right about Anora's chances of conception, he may well have decided to make Alistair his heir, in which case he wouldn't want to marry Alistair to the Empress for the same political reasons that he wouldn't want to marry her himself.

We simply don't have any real evidence to know these things, though. Informal could mean a lot of things, and all we know about the suggestion that Cailan put Anora aside is that Cailan reacted badly to the suggestion.

Yep. Pretty much that. It also makes me wonder to the actual relationship between Cailan and Anora. In one conversation with her, you ask her if she loved him and basically said "yes". You suggest to her about being king and she tells you to "talk to Alistar. He might bend over for you."  It makes me think sometimes she has something going with that Orlesian maid of hers.

She says that!? Oh, snap! Harsh.... In my male playthrough, I didn't try and make myself king, so I never saw that. Wow. I initially thought she might have been in on Loghain's plans, but her manner when asking Loghain if he killed Cailan seemed genuine. I don't think she respected Cailan much, but she did seem to have cared about him in an Anora kind of way. Still, she wants to be queen rather too much. The maid says she 'loved' him, but as with everything else in this game, that could mean a lot of things. I don't trust much that she says, I'm afraid. (I meant Anora here, but I don't trust the maid, either.)

Loghain says (yeah, we've got tons of reliable sources here ) that Cailan and Anora were friends when they were children. His account of Anora's life rather makes it sound as if Cailan was Anora's only friend. 

Ah, well that would explain both his anger at the idea of putting her aside, and her reaction to the idea that her father killed Cailan, even if their relationship wasn't one of romantic love. That wouldn't precude having real affection for each other. It is hard to decide what's true when your only sources of information are Loghain, Anora and her maid, though, isn't it?

Sorry if this is WAY out there assumption but it would be the reason they had no heir: Liliana and Zev both were Orlesian. Anora's maid has an Orlesian accent. LOT'S of juicy gossip and assumption there because of the culture of Orlais. Besides that, Anora's maid may have been a spy for her and KNEW what Cailen was up to.

Modifié par GregorLightbringer, 05 février 2010 - 08:59 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Thourton wrote...
This "affair" is based on two things: one, the "familiar tone" mentioned in the letters and two, Loghain blatantly accuses Cailan of having an affair if you take him with you to RtO.

Personally, I don't see the connection and definitely don't find it to be obvious in any manner -- when Loghain started spitting curses against Cailan's affair, I very quickly opened up my codex to see what the hell the man was raving about and even still dismissed his accusations.

"Familiar tone" could emply that they've had other written correspondance to where the Empress was impressed that Cailan really wanted peace between the two... It could also be a friendship "familiar tone".  Maybe it wasn't the Empress that Cailan was having an affair with but someone else... Also remember that Loghain hated Orlais so much that just Cailan talking to the Empress in Loghain's sick lil mind to him that's an affair... He could of twisted that around just like he did everything else especially if it dealt with Orlais...
Just like all Grey Wardens are from Orlais as Loghain seems to think but Cailan welcomes your new pc warden right in front of Loghain, (FHN) "So this is the young lady from Highever I met earlier. I understand congratulations are in order."  But maybe cause my father would travel to Orlais that's how Howl was able to so easily brand the Cousland's a traiter to Loghain n he was able to get away with murder... Howl used Loghain's hatred of Orlais against Loghain... Fed him enough deciet n lies that Loghain was beyond seeing reason...

[SusanStoHelit]

GregorLightbringer wrote...

Sorry if this is WAY out there assumption but it would be the reason they had no heir: Liliana and Zev both were Orlesian. Anora's maid has an Orlesian accent. LOT'S of juicy gossip and assumption there because of the culture of Orlais. Besides that, Anora's maid may have been a spy for her and KNEW what Cailen was up to.

Leliana is Orlesian, but Zevran is not. He's Antivan.

[SusanStoHelit]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

"Familiar tone" could emply that they've had other written correspondance to where the Empress was impressed that Cailan really wanted peace between the two... It could also be a friendship "familiar tone".  Maybe it wasn't the Empress that Cailan was having an affair with but someone else... Also remember that Loghain hated Orlais so much that just Cailan talking to the Empress in Loghain's sick lil mind to him that's an affair... He could of twisted that around just like he did everything else especially if it dealt with Orlais...

This I agree with wholeheartedly. It doesn't preclude the possibility that they were actually having an affair - but in Loghain's mind having anything to do with the Orlesians at all would constitute an 'affair'.

Just like all Grey Wardens are from Orlais as Loghain seems to think but Cailan welcomes your new pc warden right in front of Loghain, (FHN) "So this is the young lady from Highever I met earlier. I understand congratulations are in order."  But maybe cause my father would travel to Orlais that's how Howl was able to so easily brand the Cousland's a traiter to Loghain n he was able to get away with murder... Howl used Loghain's hatred of Orlais against Loghain... Fed him enough deciet n lies that Loghain was beyond seeing reason...

Well, firstly it's Howe not Howl (lmao, it kinda suits him though). Secondly, Loghain doesn't think all Grey Wardens are from Orlais. He knows you're a Cousland, or from Orzammar, or whatever. But he does think that they have strong Orlesian connections and sympathies (the Wardens in Ferelden are a small group, and the larger group who has been sent for is from Orlais); that is, individual wardens may not be Orlesian, but the group as a group are Orlesian sympathisers and spies.

[Thor Rand Al]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

"Familiar tone" could emply that they've had other written correspondance to where the Empress was impressed that Cailan really wanted peace between the two... It could also be a friendship "familiar tone".  Maybe it wasn't the Empress that Cailan was having an affair with but someone else... Also remember that Loghain hated Orlais so much that just Cailan talking to the Empress in Loghain's sick lil mind to him that's an affair... He could of twisted that around just like he did everything else especially if it dealt with Orlais...

This I agree with wholeheartedly. It doesn't preclude the possibility that they were actually having an affair - but in Loghain's mind having anything to do with the Orlesians at all would constitute an 'affair'.

Just like all Grey Wardens are from Orlais as Loghain seems to think but Cailan welcomes your new pc warden right in front of Loghain, (FHN) "So this is the young lady from Highever I met earlier. I understand congratulations are in order."  But maybe cause my father would travel to Orlais that's how Howl was able to so easily brand the Cousland's a traiter to Loghain n he was able to get away with murder... Howl used Loghain's hatred of Orlais against Loghain... Fed him enough deciet n lies that Loghain was beyond seeing reason...

Well, firstly it's Howe not Howl (lmao, it kinda suits him though). Secondly, Loghain doesn't think all Grey Wardens are from Orlais. He knows you're a Cousland, or from Orzammar, or whatever. But he does think that they have strong Orlesian connections and sympathies (the Wardens in Ferelden are a small group, and the larger group who has been sent for is from Orlais); that is, individual wardens may not be Orlesian, but the group as a group are Orlesian sympathisers and spies.

Opps my bad lmao...
Problem is is Loghain's so far gone with his hatred for Orlais that he can't seem to comprehend what's right or wrong (n for Loghain's information not all the pc's wanted to be Wardens) lol...
But how much influence did Howe actually play in this n I'm talking about from before the Cousland murders... Who's idea was it that Bryce Cousland be detained n how far back does this conspiracy go.

[SusanStoHelit]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

But how much influence did Howe actually play in this n I'm talking about from before the Cousland murders... Who's idea was it that Bryce Cousland be detained n how far back does this conspiracy go.

As discussed earlier in this thread, and elsewhere, Loghain and Howe conspired together to delay the Couslands. Howe, of course, used this to his own advantage and instead of delaying them, massacred them. In no way did Loghain authorise it - but neither did he punish it or make an example of Howe after the fact, so he certainly condoned it. As for the initial impetus, I would bet good money on the fact that the idea (to delay the Couslands) was initially Loghain's. He really needed to put a stumbling block in their way, because they are the second most powerful family in Ferelden, and very loyal to the throne - as well as being known to always do their duty.

[Thor Rand Al]

OH OH a thought, a thought lmao... Maybe with the Awakenings expansion we'll be able to get more answer's to some of these questions... We will be going to Vigil's Keep, wonder if there will be documents there that will let us know how far this Howe n Loghain conspiracy really was going on

[melkathi]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

OH OH a thought, a thought lmao... Maybe with the Awakenings expansion we'll be able to get more answer's to some of these questions... We will be going to Vigil's Keep, wonder if there will be documents there that will let us know how far this Howe n Loghain conspiracy really was going on

Unrelated:
But my female Cousland always thought she'd end up in a political, arranged marriage with Thomas Howe. I'd love her first words upon arriving in Amaranthine to be "Hmm, I always expected to live here. Though as an arlessa, not a warden commander."

[errant_knight]

melkathi wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

OH OH a thought, a thought lmao... Maybe with the Awakenings expansion we'll be able to get more answer's to some of these questions... We will be going to Vigil's Keep, wonder if there will be documents there that will let us know how far this Howe n Loghain conspiracy really was going on

Unrelated:
But my female Cousland always thought she'd end up in a political, arranged marriage with Thomas Howe. I'd love her first words upon arriving in Amaranthine to be "Hmm, I always expected to live here. Though as an arlessa, not a warden commander."

Heh, mine's response to 'maybe I should bring Thomas next time' was 'to what end?' reminding Howe of my mother and prompting a crack about the oddity of training females as warriors.

Regarding the familiar tone.... I don't find it odd that two leaders who'd been involved in what must have been difficult and protracted negotiations would have become familiar, although it would probably seem odd to someone outside those negotiations given the history between the two countries. Of course that doesn't mean the familiarity did or didn't extend beyond that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Regarding the familiar tone.... I don't find it odd that two leaders who'd been involved in what must have been difficult and protracted negotiations would have become familiar, although it would probably seem odd to someone outside those negotiations given the history between the two countries. Of course that doesn't mean the familiarity did or didn't extend beyond that.

The idea is that if we use medieval documents in this world as a 'norm', then rulers, even those who are close friends, simply don't use such a familiar tone, and always use full titles and the other rigmarole of protocol in their correspondence. That said, however, there is no reason to assume that 'this world' or 'real' customs necessarily apply in Thedas - or in Ferelden/Orlais anyway.

Short of a word from the devs on what customs apply in Ferelden and Orlais, we're guessing. And we're unlikely to get that, since I'm pretty sure that our uncertainty and hypothesising is more or less what they want. They are all sitting there, rubbing their hands together, and chuckling gleefully as they consume coffee and cookies while reading our posts. 

*Looks around fearfully for stealthed assassins.*

[Edited formatting.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 06 février 2010 - 12:57 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Regarding the familiar tone.... I don't find it odd that two leaders who'd been involved in what must have been difficult and protracted negotiations would have become familiar, although it would probably seem odd to someone outside those negotiations given the history between the two countries. Of course that doesn't mean the familiarity did or didn't extend beyond that.

The idea is that if we use medieval documents in this world as a 'norm', then rulers, even those who are close friends, simply don't use such a familiar tone, and always use full titles and the other rigmarole of protocol in their correspondence. That said, however, there is no reason to assume that 'this world' or 'real' customs necessarily apply in Thedas - or in Ferelden/Orlais anyway.

Short of a word from the devs on what customs apply in Ferelden and Orlais, we're guessing. And we're unlikely to get that, since I'm pretty sure that our uncertainty and hypothesising is more or less what they want. They are all sitting there, rubbing their hands together, and chuckling gleefully as they consume coffee and cookies while reading our posts. 

*Looks around fearfully for stealthed assassins.*

[Edited formatting.]

Well, they should be pleased! Speculation means a nuanced story with lots of places to take the plot in future. If we had nothing to say but 'I [favotite romance partner]', there'd be a problem. Not that I don't....

[Maddyanne]

Perhaps the Empress is interested in Anora and Cailan doesn't mind or even supports them? She does refer to her as a rose amongst brambles.

[errant_knight]

Maddyanne wrote...

Perhaps the Empress is interested in Anora and Cailan doesn't mind or even supports them? She does refer to her as a rose amongst brambles.

Well, there's no evidence to support that....

[Maddyanne]

I was being mischievous about the possibility of a romantic relationship between them, but she might be entirely cognizant of any negotiations between Cailen and Celine.

She may have promoted them, in fact, if they don't involve Cailan divorcing her, as a way of sidestepping Eamon if she had wind of his plans or making sure she isn't under her father's thumb.

Anora seems like someone who would play Orlesian power games very well.



It's all speculation on no evidence except Anora and Cailan's characters. Perhaps they were friends? Perhaps they were allies in trying to make a good outcome for Feraldan and their rule in the face of Anora's domineering daddy and all manner of messy politics?

Anora loves her father very much, but she is queen and ruler and wants to be queen and any fears of Loghain deciding that daddy's little girl should go off in the woods and play with her books if he feels he needs to take over are proven to be all too true.

Howe locks her up. She's right to fear for her life, I think, and her father doesn't even notice.

[Sarielle]

So....I had a long response typed up that I lost and don't feel like reproducing. However, it's fun to have caught back up again and see that the arguments are still civil and well-thought out.

[Yrkoon]

Tatooine92 wrote...

*reads all this* Wow. I will never, EVER look at Cailan the same way again. I always saw him as a carefree, goofy sort of guy. Now I'm seeing a clever young man whose nonchalant nature was a mere front to throw off Loghain

Same.

Although, if you pay close attention, you get glimpses of Caelin's savvy, out-manoevering nature  even  before RTO.

The dialogue between him and Logain before the Ostagar offensive:

Caelin:  YES!  Me  + the Gray Wardens .  Awesome
Logain:  Bah,   I don't think that's wise.
Caelin:  No?  then perhaps we should  have the Orlesians help us.  how's that?  (tee-hee).
Logain:  No!   Never!!
Caelin: Then My original plan of Me + the Gray Wardens will have to do, yes?
Logain:   (D'oh!  I walked into that one.)  Ok.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 février 2010 - 08:14 .

[draxynnus]

melkathi wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

OH OH a thought, a thought lmao... Maybe with the Awakenings expansion we'll be able to get more answer's to some of these questions... We will be going to Vigil's Keep, wonder if there will be documents there that will let us know how far this Howe n Loghain conspiracy really was going on

Unrelated:
But my female Cousland always thought she'd end up in a political, arranged marriage with Thomas Howe. I'd love her first words upon arriving in Amaranthine to be "Hmm, I always expected to live here. Though as an arlessa, not a warden commander."

Interesting thought there from the Reborn Dragon - it will be interesting if we can go through Arl Howe's dirty laundry in Awakening.

Regarding melkathi's thought: The thought has struck me that if Cailen was planning a political marriage that didn't involve himself, there was, at the time, a younger child of the Couslands available (although, unlike the DN, there's nothing to specify if the younger Cousland is canonically male or female). If said younger Cousland was male, he could have been planning a diplomatic marriage with the Empress there, and if female...possibly one of the more important Orlesian families.

Of course, hopefully such a plan would have been a "put them together and see if they get on well enough first" rather than a "you WILL do this".

On a similar line of thought, but with added irony - the next cab off the rank when it comes to eligible bachelors that we know of would be Howe's son. It would be quite delicious if Howe's siding with Loghain meant he missed the opportunity to be the grandfather of the next Orlesian monarch...

Modifié par draxynnus, 06 février 2010 - 08:23 .

[Lupus Canivus]

draxynnus wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

OH OH a thought, a thought lmao... Maybe with the Awakenings expansion we'll be able to get more answer's to some of these questions... We will be going to Vigil's Keep, wonder if there will be documents there that will let us know how far this Howe n Loghain conspiracy really was going on

Unrelated:
But my female Cousland always thought she'd end up in a political, arranged marriage with Thomas Howe. I'd love her first words upon arriving in Amaranthine to be "Hmm, I always expected to live here. Though as an arlessa, not a warden commander."

Interesting thought there from the Reborn Dragon - it will be interesting if we can go through Arl Howe's dirty laundry in Awakening.

Regarding melkathi's thought: The thought has struck me that if Cailen was planning a political marriage that didn't involve himself, there was, at the time, a younger child of the Couslands available (although, unlike the DN, there's nothing to specify if the younger Cousland is canonically male or female). If said younger Cousland was male, he could have been planning a diplomatic marriage with the Empress there, and if female...possibly one of the more important Orlesian families.

Of course, hopefully such a plan would have been a "put them together and see if they get on well enough first" rather than a "you WILL do this".

On a similar line of thought, but with added irony - the next cab off the rank when it comes to eligible bachelors that we know of would be Howe's son. It would be quite delicious if Howe's siding with Loghain meant he missed the opportunity to be the grandfather of the next Orlesian monarch...

I think you where born in Orlais !

Very interesting points, we know that Bryne (?), Cousland father had been to Orlais recentlly. Perhaps he was a go between? And we also know, well suspect, that the Cousland's were not "bound to the past" (couldn't think of a better meaning). They treated their elfs ok and the oldest son had married outside Ferelden. So the idea of helping/marrying/alliance with Orlais would not have been tabu.
 
I do not think that the King and Queen C were "more" than just friends for all the reasons stated here. One last thought, knowing what we "know" of Aurora it is just as possible that she was also incontact with Queen C. She did not have the same fear of Orlesian as her father.

[_Aine_]

Well, another interesting point is at the Landsmeet section of the game, you can get quite a lot of information out of Anora. You can find out all about the scores of Cailan's women on the side. At some point in the game ( it may have also been this conversation) you can also hear details about how Cailan was trying to unite many nations to assist Ferelden as well, Orlais may have been one of those he was trying to forge political alliances with, which could also explain things. To me, Anora, for all the angst I have about her at times, is a very shrewd woman, and was not at all closing her eyes to certain circumstances, in fact she seemed rather aware of them, if you can take her at face value for this anyway. I also don't think the fact the letter with the familiar tone came from Cailan means, necessarily, that Anora was not aware of any correspondence either. We just can't know. Bloody interesting though

[Mistersunshine]

I love this thread.

[AndreaDraco]

Has it been addressed before that Duncan wanting to retrieve the old treaties could be an indication that he too wasn't very confident of the battle's possible success?

Another question: if Loghain was trying to cut off Cailan's politic alliances, therefore making him more vulnerable, and thus more manipulable (and less prone to ask Orlais for help), why does he challenge Cailan so vehemently about his plan to ride full-frontal, so to speak, in battle with the Gray Wardens?

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 06 février 2010 - 03:56 .

[Maddyanne]

Freckles04 brought up Duncan not asking for the treaties from the PC as possibly because of that----the PC is going to a theoretically safer place and so there's a better chance of the treaties being preserved if the battle goes badly.

[_Aine_]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Another question: if Loghain was trying to cut off Cailan's politic alliances, therefore making him more vulnerable, and thus more manipulable (and less prone to ask Orlais for help), why does he challenge Cailan so vehemently about his plan to ride full-frontal, so to speak, in battle with the Gray Wardens?

I think this is one of those points that indicate that Loghain, for all people think of him, did not wish Cailan dead.   Useless and ineffective, perhaps, but not dead.   Basically setting him up for a political intervention a la Loghain  

Why he or Duncan couldn't have just said "Dude, you are being *so so stupid*.  Don't you read the loading screens about history not seeing how cool your full frontal assault looks when you are dead?!?"