522 réponses à ce sujet

[Jannamarie]

I have some high expectations for answers from Awakening after reading this thread.

[Prophet15]

Don't you just love conspiracies? Especially where they involve a man voiced by Simon Templeman and a "cocky" King?

[errant_knight]

shantisands wrote...

Well, another interesting point is at the Landsmeet section of the game, you can get quite a lot of information out of Anora. You can find out all about the scores of Cailan's women on the side. At some point in the game ( it may have also been this conversation) you can also hear details about how Cailan was trying to unite many nations to assist Ferelden as well, Orlais may have been one of those he was trying to forge political alliances with, which could also explain things. To me, Anora, for all the angst I have about her at times, is a very shrewd woman, and was not at all closing her eyes to certain circumstances, in fact she seemed rather aware of them, if you can take her at face value for this anyway. I also don't think the fact the letter with the familiar tone came from Cailan means, necessarily, that Anora was not aware of any correspondence either. We just can't know. Bloody interesting though

Do we ever hear confirmation of Cailan's infidelity from anyone other than Anora? I don't remember doing so. Now, I'm not saying it didn't happen. If I were Cailan, I would be sorely tempted to seek out less Machiavellian companionship, but unless we have reliable confirmation elsewhere, that could just be an attempt on Anora's part to manipulate the PC. We know Anora will say anything to become queen. I don't take any of the main character's words at face value, actually. Except Alistair. He'll evade, deflect and parse words like crazy, but he doesn't lie.

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 février 2010 - 08:55 .

[errant_knight]

Colenda wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Well, another interesting point is at the Landsmeet section of the game, you can get quite a lot of information out of Anora. You can find out all about the scores of Cailan's women on the side. At some point in the game ( it may have also been this conversation) you can also hear details about how Cailan was trying to unite many nations to assist Ferelden as well, Orlais may have been one of those he was trying to forge political alliances with, which could also explain things. To me, Anora, for all the angst I have about her at times, is a very shrewd woman, and was not at all closing her eyes to certain circumstances, in fact she seemed rather aware of them, if you can take her at face value for this anyway. I also don't think the fact the letter with the familiar tone came from Cailan means, necessarily, that Anora was not aware of any correspondence either. We just can't know. Bloody interesting though

Do we ever hear confirmation of Cailan's infidelity from anyone other than Anora? I don't remember doing so. Now, I'm not saying it didn't happen. If I were Cailan, I would be sorely tempted to seek out less Machiavellian companionship, but unless we have reliable confirmation elsewhere, that could just be an attempt on Anora's part to manipulate the PC. We know Anora will say anything to become queen. I don't take any of the main character's words at face value, actually. Except Alistair. He'll evade, deflect and parse words like crazy, but he doesn't lie.

Given the context in which Anora tells the PC about Cailan's infidelities, it seems unlikely. Anora wants to know if she marries Alistair, whether a female Warden would be his lover.  I think it's a mistake to view Anora (or Loghain) as Machiavels - Loghain is too emotional and politically clumsy to fulfil that role, and Anora seems too fond of her father - she could have got rid of him if she'd moved quickly after Ostagar.  

I agree that Loghain was no Machiavelli. He's too paranoid and too emotional for that. His plans aren't very subtle, either. Anora, on the other hand.... Devious, clever, politically adept, and a very good liar. I'm afraid I can't believe anything she says without backup. When I say Anora would do anything to become queen, I should have said 'short of murdering her husband and her father.'

[errant_knight]

Colenda wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Colenda wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Well, another interesting point is at the Landsmeet section of the game, you can get quite a lot of information out of Anora. You can find out all about the scores of Cailan's women on the side. At some point in the game ( it may have also been this conversation) you can also hear details about how Cailan was trying to unite many nations to assist Ferelden as well, Orlais may have been one of those he was trying to forge political alliances with, which could also explain things. To me, Anora, for all the angst I have about her at times, is a very shrewd woman, and was not at all closing her eyes to certain circumstances, in fact she seemed rather aware of them, if you can take her at face value for this anyway. I also don't think the fact the letter with the familiar tone came from Cailan means, necessarily, that Anora was not aware of any correspondence either. We just can't know. Bloody interesting though

Do we ever hear confirmation of Cailan's infidelity from anyone other than Anora? I don't remember doing so. Now, I'm not saying it didn't happen. If I were Cailan, I would be sorely tempted to seek out less Machiavellian companionship, but unless we have reliable confirmation elsewhere, that could just be an attempt on Anora's part to manipulate the PC. We know Anora will say anything to become queen. I don't take any of the main character's words at face value, actually. Except Alistair. He'll evade, deflect and parse words like crazy, but he doesn't lie.

Given the context in which Anora tells the PC about Cailan's infidelities, it seems unlikely. Anora wants to know if she marries Alistair, whether a female Warden would be his lover.  I think it's a mistake to view Anora (or Loghain) as Machiavels - Loghain is too emotional and politically clumsy to fulfil that role, and Anora seems too fond of her father - she could have got rid of him if she'd moved quickly after Ostagar.  

I agree that Loghain was no Machiavelli. He's too paranoid and too emotional for that. His plans aren't very subtle, either. Anora, on the other hand.... Devious, clever, politically adept, and a very good liar. I'm afraid I can't believe anything she says without backup. When I say Anora would do anything to become queen, I should have said 'short of murdering her husband and her father.'

Sort of agree with you, though that 'short of' is what to me discounts her from being a good machiavellian girl. Also, from looking through the dev notes for her voice actor in the toolset, some of her emotional life is given a little more flesh - for instance, she's supposed to sound sorry if you've killed Cauthrien. So I tend to take a more optimistic view of her character than do most of the posters here.

Heh, I think we just define Machiavellian slightly differently. I don't think it demands that you be willing to murder your father, or be unmoved by the death of family retainers. Now, if I'd compared her to Lucrezia Borgia, I'd have agree with your qualms and take it back.

I think we better stop quoting each other now. This is getting excessive. Heh....

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[errant_knight]

Heh, we all have our biases, I know I do! In fact, I'm certainly somewhat biased about Anora. She says some things that really stick in my craw.

[Thor Rand Al]

Colenda wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Well, another interesting point is at the Landsmeet section of the game, you can get quite a lot of information out of Anora. You can find out all about the scores of Cailan's women on the side. At some point in the game ( it may have also been this conversation) you can also hear details about how Cailan was trying to unite many nations to assist Ferelden as well, Orlais may have been one of those he was trying to forge political alliances with, which could also explain things. To me, Anora, for all the angst I have about her at times, is a very shrewd woman, and was not at all closing her eyes to certain circumstances, in fact she seemed rather aware of them, if you can take her at face value for this anyway. I also don't think the fact the letter with the familiar tone came from Cailan means, necessarily, that Anora was not aware of any correspondence either. We just can't know. Bloody interesting though

Do we ever hear confirmation of Cailan's infidelity from anyone other than Anora? I don't remember doing so. Now, I'm not saying it didn't happen. If I were Cailan, I would be sorely tempted to seek out less Machiavellian companionship, but unless we have reliable confirmation elsewhere, that could just be an attempt on Anora's part to manipulate the PC. We know Anora will say anything to become queen. I don't take any of the main character's words at face value, actually. Except Alistair. He'll evade, deflect and parse words like crazy, but he doesn't lie.

Given the context in which Anora tells the PC about Cailan's infidelities, it seems unlikely. Anora wants to know if she marries Alistair, whether a female Warden would be his lover.  I think it's a mistake to view Anora (or Loghain) as Machiavels - Loghain is too emotional and politically clumsy to fulfil that role, and Anora seems too fond of her father - she could have got rid of him if she'd moved quickly after Ostagar.  

Anora could also be telling the female pc this too to try n throw your pc off of whatever the your plannin on doing especially if your HFN n thinking of ruling with Alistair n you have feelings for him... She's trying to say that none of those boys are trustworthy supposedly...

[errant_knight]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Anora could also be telling the female pc this too to try n throw your pc off of whatever the your plannin on doing especially if your HFN n thinking of ruling with Alistair n you have feelings for him... She's trying to say that none of those boys are trustworthy supposedly...

And with a male PC, she could be trying to elicit sympathy for herself. It does seem like we're supposed to believe her, but I think we were also supposed to think Cailan a fool, and I'm having trouble buying that at this point. I'm not sure we can be that sure of anyone.

[Thor Rand Al]

errant_knight wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Anora could also be telling the female pc this too to try n throw your pc off of whatever the your plannin on doing especially if your HFN n thinking of ruling with Alistair n you have feelings for him... She's trying to say that none of those boys are trustworthy supposedly...

And with a male PC, she could be trying to elicit sympathy for herself. It does seem like we're supposed to believe her, but I think we were also supposed to think Cailan a fool, and I'm having trouble buying that at this point. I'm not sure we can be that sure of anyone.

Lol if we only knew whats really going on in Anora's mind... But what we definitely know is that she wants that throne no matter the cost...  That was definitely apparent when I told her I was going to support Alistair n then I asked her if she would him n she said " I'll tell you this: my father must be stopped.  Once he is kept from the throne, if it should fall to Alistair then I will be content."
Ya well we all know where that leads, the second time she backstabs you lmao

[errant_knight]

Yes, believing Anora has a tendency to lead to a world of hurt....

[Feraele]

errant_knight wrote...

Wow, I've played RtO 3 times and I missed that! Very, very interesting point! it could mean any of those things, although there's no mention of an actual attack by Loghain's troops. Ser Cautherin seems dismayed and surprised that they aren't following the plan--although not enough to do anything about it. (Y'know, I think I might just kill her at Landsmeet this next time.

I should also mention that I don't think Cailan was romancing the Orlesian empress, not with an eye toward marriage, anyway. It doesn't mean he wouldn't use his charm in negotiating the treaties. The treaties weren't about Fereldan autonomy in a merged state, and there's no reason to think that Cailan didn't value independance as much as the next Fereldan. He wouldn't want to be the king that made a newly freed Fereldan vassal to Orleis. No, the treaties were about forging a lasting peace between the two countries, quite an accomplishment.

I think the letter from Eamon was a separate matter, mostly there to let us know that if we think making Anora queen will ensure an heir and stable succession, we're barking up the wrong tree. It also lets us know that, while Cailan may have cheated on Anora (for which we have only her word, I believe, and we know how much that's worth), he was angry at the suggestion he put her aside.

You know what I suspect about Ser Cautherin...that she's in hero worship of Loghain, so that no matter what he does..even when he gave the order to retreat at Ostagar.....she seemed to almost object..and then just did as she was told.

I think I feel sorry for her in a way...I think she's a brainwashed follower, and possibly even..in love with Loghain.

So her fate is predetermined by those things.   She seems incapable of independent thought and only spouts the lies that Loghain repeats over and over again.

As for the Orlesian wardens...they were turned away at the border...weren't they?  Think Loghain had something to do with that.    Hence why they didn't show up.

[errant_knight]

Feraele wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Wow, I've played RtO 3 times and I missed that! Very, very interesting point! it could mean any of those things, although there's no mention of an actual attack by Loghain's troops. Ser Cautherin seems dismayed and surprised that they aren't following the plan--although not enough to do anything about it. (Y'know, I think I might just kill her at Landsmeet this next time.

I should also mention that I don't think Cailan was romancing the Orlesian empress, not with an eye toward marriage, anyway. It doesn't mean he wouldn't use his charm in negotiating the treaties. The treaties weren't about Fereldan autonomy in a merged state, and there's no reason to think that Cailan didn't value independance as much as the next Fereldan. He wouldn't want to be the king that made a newly freed Fereldan vassal to Orleis. No, the treaties were about forging a lasting peace between the two countries, quite an accomplishment.

I think the letter from Eamon was a separate matter, mostly there to let us know that if we think making Anora queen will ensure an heir and stable succession, we're barking up the wrong tree. It also lets us know that, while Cailan may have cheated on Anora (for which we have only her word, I believe, and we know how much that's worth), he was angry at the suggestion he put her aside.

You know what I suspect about Ser Cautherin...that she's in hero worship of Loghain, so that no matter what he does..even when he gave the order to retreat at Ostagar.....she seemed to almost object..and then just did as she was told.

I think I feel sorry for her in a way...I think she's a brainwashed follower, and possibly even..in love with Loghain.

So her fate is predetermined by those things.   She seems incapable of independent thought and only spouts the lies that Loghain repeats over and over again.

As for the Orlesian wardens...they were turned away at the border...weren't they?  Think Loghain had something to do with that.    Hence why they didn't show up.

We don't know when they were turned back, really. I  don't think Loghain could have done that while Cailan was still alive, so I think it was after Ostagar.

Did you read Ser Cautherine's codex? She was the daughter of farmer's who  helped him fight off bandits, so he took her into his guard, where she rose through the ranks. She owed him everything. That being said, she's not brainwashed. She knows what he's ordering is wrong. If she were brainwashed, her loyalty wouldn't allow her to see that. She's making a concious choice to follow his order anyway.

At landsmeet we find that she knows he's done horrible things, but she's still standing up for him. Blind loyalty isn't a character asset. She certainly feels like she owes him, but for people of character, that only goes so far. Even deserting the king wasn't a line she couldn't cross. No one's fate is predetermined--she has a choice that she fails to exercise. She wouldn't be able to stop him, but she doesn't have to help.

[Thor Rand Al]

errant_knight wrote...
At landsmeet we find that she knows he's done horrible things, but she's still standing up for him. Blind loyalty isn't a character asset. She certainly feels like she owes him, but for people of character, that only goes so far. Even deserting the king wasn't a line she couldn't cross. No one's fate is predetermined--she has a choice that she fails to exercise. She wouldn't be able to stop him, but she doesn't have to help.

If you have a high enough persuasion she does say she knows he's done horrible things n then do another persuasion check n she will let you go by without a fight n asks you to stop him from destroying everything that he loves ( I think thats what she says) but she also asks you to spare him.

Edit: damn spelling errors lol

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 07 février 2010 - 08:25 .

[Nonvita]

errant_knight wrote...

We don't know when they were turned back, really. I  don't think Loghain could have done that while Cailan was still alive, so I think it was after Ostagar.

Did you read Ser Cautherine's codex? She was the daughter of farmer's who  helped him fight off bandits, so he took her into his guard, where she rose through the ranks. She owed him everything. That being said, she's not brainwashed. She knows what he's ordering is wrong. If she were brainwashed, her loyalty wouldn't allow her to see that. She's making a concious choice to follow his order anyway.

At landsmeet we find that she knows he's done horrible things, but she's still standing up for him. Blind loyalty isn't a character asset. She certainly feels like she owes him, but for people of character, that only goes so far. Even deserting the king wasn't a line she couldn't cross. No one's fate is predetermined--she has a choice that she fails to exercise. She wouldn't be able to stop him, but she doesn't have to help.

If you pass the persuade check with her, she'll admit that she sees the terrible things Loghain has been doing and step down from the fight, so she's definitely not completely brainwashed. I don't think she's as terrible as people say, but then she's certainly no hero either.

[errant_knight]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
At landsmeet we find that she knows he's done horrible things, but she's still standing up for him. Blind loyalty isn't a character asset. She certainly feels like she owes him, but for people of character, that only goes so far. Even deserting the king wasn't a line she couldn't cross. No one's fate is predetermined--she has a choice that she fails to exercise. She wouldn't be able to stop him, but she doesn't have to help.

If you have a high enough persuasion she does say she knows he's done horrible things n then do another persuasion check n she will let you go by without a fight n asks you to stop him from destroying everything that he loves ( I think thats what she says) but she also asks you to spare him.

Edit: damn spelling errors lol

Yes, I've gotten this each time, much to my regret. I'd quite like to kill her for being complicit in the death of the king and the destruction of the grey wardens. Sadly, I can't. She backs down, but it's far too little, too late. All it does is get me to spare her life.

Nonvita wrote...
If you pass the persuade check with her, she'll admit that she sees the terrible things Loghain has been doing and step down from the fight, so she's definitely not completely brainwashed. I don't think she's as terrible as people say, but then she's certainly no hero either.

There are quite a few people who not only don't think she's terrible, but admire her, so you're not alone there.

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 01:42 .

[guytza]

interesting thread, love it.



Anora is a pretty conflicted character, on one hand she wants the throne....bad.



On the other hand, her father takes the regency upon returning from Ostagar essentially pushing her to the side.



Now if Anora was too young to rule this might be expected, but I believe the codex says shes pushing 30 years of age or something. So why would the power hungry (for lack of a better term) Anora allow her father to take over?



My answer...culpable deniability. She knows what he did and is playing innocent to avoid being dragged down when Logain and Howe ulitmately get theirs. Logain had killed a king and Howe had attempted to wipe out the second most powerful family in ferelden (right? I seem to recall the couslands were particularly distinguished as such in the game) there's no way this is all going to just blow over in a government where a landsmeet has enough power to overthrow a regent.

[SusanStoHelit]

guytza wrote...

My answer...culpable deniability. She knows what he did and is playing innocent to avoid being dragged down when Logain and Howe ulitmately get theirs. Logain had killed a king and Howe had attempted to wipe out the second most powerful family in ferelden (right? I seem to recall the couslands were particularly distinguished as such in the game) there's no way this is all going to just blow over in a government where a landsmeet has enough power to overthrow a regent. 

I don't think she knew what he did, not at the point that he claimed the regency. That cut scene that shows the two of them on the balcony in Denerim - he's already the regent there. And later we're shown the one where she asks her father if he killed Cailan - and she is clearly hit hard by the answer.

I think she simply doesn't have the power base to stop him. Loghain has no legal right (even if Fereldan terms) to claim a regency from an adult Queen who is fit and able. But on the other hand, Anora has no actual right to the throne anyway. She is not a Queen Regnant, she is merely a Queen Consort, the widow of the former King Regnant. However, she undoubtedly hopes that the Landsmeet will confirm her anyway, because until Alistair turns up there is no other heir - and even when he does, she hopes his bastardy will exclude him, or that she can exclude him by means of persuasion, or politics, or treachery.

[draxynnus]

guytza wrote...

My answer...culpable deniability. She knows what he did and is playing innocent to avoid being dragged down when Logain and Howe ulitmately get theirs. Logain had killed a king and Howe had attempted to wipe out the second most powerful family in ferelden (right? I seem to recall the couslands were particularly distinguished as such in the game) there's no way this is all going to just blow over in a government where a landsmeet has enough power to overthrow a regent.

Third, I'd say. The Couslands don't seem to be as powerful as Loghain and Anora (even before Ostagar), but there were only two teyrns left in Ferelden - Loghain and Bryce - and nothing between the rank of teyrn and the king.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

guytza wrote...

My answer...culpable deniability. She knows what he did and is playing innocent to avoid being dragged down when Logain and Howe ulitmately get theirs. Logain had killed a king and Howe had attempted to wipe out the second most powerful family in ferelden (right? I seem to recall the couslands were particularly distinguished as such in the game) there's no way this is all going to just blow over in a government where a landsmeet has enough power to overthrow a regent. 

I don't think she knew what he did, not at the point that he claimed the regency. That cut scene that shows the two of them on the balcony in Denerim - he's already the regent there. And later we're shown the one where she asks her father if he killed Cailan - and she is clearly hit hard by the answer.

I think she simply doesn't have the power base to stop him. Loghain has no legal right (even if Fereldan terms) to claim a regency from an adult Queen who is fit and able. But on the other hand, Anora has no actual right to the throne anyway. She is not a Queen Regnant, she is merely a Queen Consort, the widow of the former King Regnant. However, she undoubtedly hopes that the Landsmeet will confirm her anyway, because until Alistair turns up there is no other heir - and even when he does, she hopes his bastardy will exclude him, or that she can exclude him by means of persuasion, or politics, or treachery.

My opinion of Anora is definitely influenced by her obvious preference that Alistair stay in Fort Drakon, something that would clearly lead to torture and death. Fort Drakon is not a nice place. That would have solved her problem nicely. The lack of a power base explains a lot about her actions. She hopes to manipulate the warden into backing her as she does earlier with Eamon, and she has her back up plan of betraying them if that doesn't pan out.

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 12:54 .

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

My opinion of Anora is definitely influenced by her obvious preference that Alistair stay in Fort Drakon, something that would clearly lead to torture and death. Fort Drakon is not a nice place. That would have solved her problem nicely. The lack of a power base explains a lot about her actions. She hopes to manipulate the warden into backing her as she does earlier with Eamon, and she has her back up plan of betraying them if that doesn't pan out.

Yes, she really doesn't give a sh*t about anyone but herself. I would like her a lot more if she was 'ambitious' rather than 'power-hungry', if that explains what I mean. I don't mind that she likes to rule, likes to be important and powerful and influential. I do mind that she is willing to go to any lengths to get that power. She is no different to her father in that - willing to do anything, no matter how despicable, to get what she wants. And she just doesn't care if what she does hurts other people (also like Loghain). Further, it's not only their opponents they hurt - it's all the innocent bystanders who get in their way, or whom they simply regard as unimportant.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

My opinion of Anora is definitely influenced by her obvious preference that Alistair stay in Fort Drakon, something that would clearly lead to torture and death. Fort Drakon is not a nice place. That would have solved her problem nicely. The lack of a power base explains a lot about her actions. She hopes to manipulate the warden into backing her as she does earlier with Eamon, and she has her back up plan of betraying them if that doesn't pan out.

Yes, she really doesn't give a sh*t about anyone but herself. I would like her a lot more if she was 'ambitious' rather than 'power-hungry', if that explains what I mean. I don't mind that she likes to rule, likes to be important and powerful and influential. I do mind that she is willing to go to any lengths to get that power. She is no different to her father in that - willing to do anything, no matter how despicable, to get what she wants. And she just doesn't care if what she does hurts other people (also like Loghain). Further, it's not only their opponents they hurt - it's all the innocent bystanders who get in their way, or whom they simply regard as unimportant.

I've also noticed that Anora talks about Fereldan, and the people of Fereldan, more as a concept than as living breathing individuals with lives of their own, unlike Alistair who feels great empathy for the people of Lothering and deeply regrets having to leave them to their fate.

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 01:39 .

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

I've also noticed that Anora talks about Fereldan, and the people of Fereldan, more as a concept than as living breathing individuals with lives of their own, unlike Alistair who feels great empathy for the people of Lothering and deeply regrets having to leave them to their fate. 

Me too - that's what I meant by the 'unimportant' people. They're not people to Loghain or Anora, or at least they're nor 'real people' whose situation, whose lives, whose welfare matters - they're numbers, ciphers, the 'faceless masses'. I detest that, irl, historically, or ingame. And I'll oppose people who think that way on sheer principle.

Edit: In fact, Loghain would've made a great Orlesian chevalier as they're depicted in the Orlesian occupation. He is what he hates. Oh, the irony.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 01:47 .