147 réponses à ce sujet

[Mox Ruuga]

citizen_snipsV1 wrote...


Bravo TC, exactly what i knew but couldnt put to words as well.
Lets just hope bioware remembers that fact and doesnt bombarde us with new teammates we wont grow to care about, and instead brings back our favorites, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Thane, whoever, so we can continue to flesh out those who helped us get to this stage, and have them next to us in the final battle, of which should be one of the most climactic battles ever

Please Bioware, bring them back, we want them, add a few new people but leave a huge number for our favorites<3

The same argument was used to plead for the ME1 squad being in ME2 instead of a bunch of new psychos no one would care about. Bioware ignored it.

They will ignore this as well.

How can characters like Tali and Garrus be in ME3, when they died during the suicide mission? You think Bioware removed their character shields from ME1 for no reason? Especially since they already had experience with Wrex' situation, knowing how difficult it would be to bring back someone who can die, no matter the fan outcry?

I'd say they did this to commit themselves to a course. Like Cortez burning his ships.

New squad + Liara and the Virmire survivor in ME3. And I will be glad. Well, mostly, I will miss Miranda and Mordin.

[Ghostano]

ComTrav wrote...

More evidence that you're right:

Bioware wouldn't have made ME2's 'suicide mission' without a good idea where they would go in ME3. I think ME2 to ME3 integration will be smoother then ME1 to ME2, because they have more experience with it, and because when ME1 came out, they weren't sure of a sequel. (It could've flopped massively, after all.)

Mass Effect was always going to me a trilogy that is why they kept with the your choices will matter even then. That is part of the reason some people are little disappointed with what was carried over. I just figured what they orgainally planed just did not work the way they wanted so they had to change some things. That was part of the reason I was intrested in the game to see how it would turn out.

[Landline]

I really don't care what they do as long as they keep Garrus and Tali in.



And to be honest, I think it would be harder to write the two of them out then it would be to write them in in many of the possible reality's.

[FriendofGarrus]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

citizen_snipsV1 wrote...


Bravo TC, exactly what i knew but couldnt put to words as well.
Lets just hope bioware remembers that fact and doesnt bombarde us with new teammates we wont grow to care about, and instead brings back our favorites, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Thane, whoever, so we can continue to flesh out those who helped us get to this stage, and have them next to us in the final battle, of which should be one of the most climactic battles ever

Please Bioware, bring them back, we want them, add a few new people but leave a huge number for our favorites<3

The same argument was used to plead for the ME1 squad being in ME2 instead of a bunch of new psychos no one would care about. Bioware ignored it.

They will ignore this as well.

How can characters like Tali and Garrus be in ME3, when they died during the suicide mission? You think Bioware removed their character shields from ME1 for no reason? Especially since they already had experience with Wrex' situation, knowing how difficult it would be to bring back someone who can die, no matter the fan outcry?

I'd say they did this to commit themselves to a course. Like Cortez burning his ships.

New squad + Liara and the Virmire survivor in ME3. And I will be glad. Well, mostly, I will miss Miranda and Mordin.

Unfortunately I think you are right. Liara is a lock for ME3 and probably Ashley/Kaiden. I really want to see Garrus and Tali but since they can die in the final mission they will probably have reduced roles at best. I am completely baffled at how the introduction is going to be handled to streamline everyone's diverse ending combinations. I wish they had kept the shield on Garrus and Tali  since they have been constant companions but, oh well.

It does seem like the story in ME2 was entirely character driven. Thus if ME3 reduces all the roles of the surviving squad members it seems like a bit of a waste. I'm also getting tired of starting a squad from scratch each time. I can't imagine what the excuse will be for the next one. We end up getting similar characters anyway (Biotic asari, combat/biotic human, tech/combat alien, etc) so I don't see any reason to bring in new characters EXCEPT for the sole purpose of avoiding continuity problems and streamlining the diverse ending possibilities.

[Default137]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

citizen_snipsV1 wrote...


Bravo TC, exactly what i knew but couldnt put to words as well.
Lets just hope bioware remembers that fact and doesnt bombarde us with new teammates we wont grow to care about, and instead brings back our favorites, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Thane, whoever, so we can continue to flesh out those who helped us get to this stage, and have them next to us in the final battle, of which should be one of the most climactic battles ever

Please Bioware, bring them back, we want them, add a few new people but leave a huge number for our favorites<3

The same argument was used to plead for the ME1 squad being in ME2 instead of a bunch of new psychos no one would care about. Bioware ignored it.

They will ignore this as well.

How can characters like Tali and Garrus be in ME3, when they died during the suicide mission? You think Bioware removed their character shields from ME1 for no reason? Especially since they already had experience with Wrex' situation, knowing how difficult it would be to bring back someone who can die, no matter the fan outcry?

I'd say they did this to commit themselves to a course. Like Cortez burning his ships.

New squad + Liara and the Virmire survivor in ME3. And I will be glad. Well, mostly, I will miss Miranda and Mordin.

So your saying that the squad we spent all of ME2 assembling, no the squad that was the very reason ME2 the game exists, the squad that was the story, heart, and soul of ME2, will suddenly and without any reason not appear at all in ME3? I mean no offense, but that makes absolutly no logical sense, the entire point of ME2 was assembling this squad, the Collectors bit was just tacked on to keep us busy while we waited for ME3, if they just ditch them all, ME2 served us no purpose whatsoever storylinewise.

The reason Kaiden/Ashley/Liara barely appeared in ME2 was because of fan appeal, the vast majority of the forums utterly hated those three characters, found them bland, boring unlikable, you name it, so Bioware dropped them as squadmates, and made up some new interesting people, while keeping two of the more liked characters from the first game, ala Tali and Garrus. Wrex was dropped because he could have died in the first game thus really couldn't be a squad member in ME3, as some people would have had one less squad member, and others would have still had him, and it would have just been a mess, and people would have come to the forums kicking and screaming that some people got a different set of characters then someone else did.

[Shadow015]

Default137 wrote...


The reason Kaiden/Ashley/Liara barely appeared in ME2 was because of fan appeal, the vast majority of the forums utterly hated those three characters, found them bland, boring unlikable, you name it, so Bioware dropped them as squadmates, and made up some new interesting people, while keeping two of the more liked characters from the first game, ala Tali and Garrus.

I'd like to see where this was said, as from what I understand, Ash/Kaiden and Liara were left out of the squad in 2 SPECIFICALLY so they could play a role in 3.  That doesn't seem like something you do to characters that the fandom "doesn't like."

[ComTrav]

I hope these decisions aren't entirely driven by forum popularity.



I like Tali, but she has like 10x as much forum support as anyone else. I only need one Tali on my team.

[FriendofGarrus]

Default137 wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

citizen_snipsV1 wrote...


Bravo TC, exactly what i knew but couldnt put to words as well.
Lets just hope bioware remembers that fact and doesnt bombarde us with new teammates we wont grow to care about, and instead brings back our favorites, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Thane, whoever, so we can continue to flesh out those who helped us get to this stage, and have them next to us in the final battle, of which should be one of the most climactic battles ever

Please Bioware, bring them back, we want them, add a few new people but leave a huge number for our favorites<3

The same argument was used to plead for the ME1 squad being in ME2 instead of a bunch of new psychos no one would care about. Bioware ignored it.

They will ignore this as well.

How can characters like Tali and Garrus be in ME3, when they died during the suicide mission? You think Bioware removed their character shields from ME1 for no reason? Especially since they already had experience with Wrex' situation, knowing how difficult it would be to bring back someone who can die, no matter the fan outcry?

I'd say they did this to commit themselves to a course. Like Cortez burning his ships.

New squad + Liara and the Virmire survivor in ME3. And I will be glad. Well, mostly, I will miss Miranda and Mordin.

So your saying that the squad we spent all of ME2 assembling, no the squad that was the very reason ME2 the game exists, the squad that was the story, heart, and soul of ME2, will suddenly and without any reason not appear at all in ME3? I mean no offense, but that makes absolutly no logical sense, the entire point of ME2 was assembling this squad, the Collectors bit was just tacked on to keep us busy while we waited for ME3, if they just ditch them all, ME2 served us no purpose whatsoever storylinewise.

The reason Kaiden/Ashley/Liara barely appeared in ME2 was because of fan appeal, the vast majority of the forums utterly hated those three characters, found them bland, boring unlikable, you name it, so Bioware dropped them as squadmates, and made up some new interesting people, while keeping two of the more liked characters from the first game, ala Tali and Garrus. Wrex was dropped because he could have died in the first game thus really couldn't be a squad member in ME3, as some people would have had one less squad member, and others would have still had him, and it would have just been a mess, and people would have come to the forums kicking and screaming that some people got a different set of characters then someone else did.

Well your own argument for keeping all the members in ME2 is defeated by your second point about Wrex. People will be mad if they miss out on some squad members because they happened to die during the final mission. It is possible to survive with only Shepard and one other companion. Those saved games would be royally screwed. It seems impossible for the team to return as it was in ME2 unless some sort of canon is created (which is antithetical to the nature of the series).

[Shadow015]

ComTrav wrote...

I hope these decisions aren't entirely driven by forum popularity.

I like Tali, but she has like 10x as much forum support as anyone else. I only need one Tali on my team.

What, you don't want a backup squad composed of Tali, Tali and Tali?

OH!  Or have the Normandy crewed by Tali, Tali, Tali, Tali, Tali and Joker in a suit!  (Because it's not the Normandy without Joker.)

[Mox Ruuga]

Default137 wrote...


So your saying that the squad we spent all of ME2 assembling, no the squad that was the very reason ME2 the game exists, the squad that was the story, heart, and soul of ME2, will suddenly and without any reason not appear at all in ME3? I mean no offense, but that makes absolutly no logical sense, the entire point of ME2 was assembling this squad, the Collectors bit was just tacked on to keep us busy while we waited for ME3, if they just ditch them all, ME2 served us no purpose whatsoever storylinewise.

The reason Kaiden/Ashley/Liara barely appeared in ME2 was because of fan appeal, the vast majority of the forums utterly hated those three characters, found them bland, boring unlikable, you name it, so Bioware dropped them as squadmates, and made up some new interesting people, while keeping two of the more liked characters from the first game, ala Tali and Garrus. Wrex was dropped because he could have died in the first game thus really couldn't be a squad member in ME3, as some people would have had one less squad member, and others would have still had him, and it would have just been a mess, and people would have come to the forums kicking and screaming that some people got a different set of characters then someone else did.

Do you think before you post? Seriously? Your first paragraph blames me for wanting to "waste" the ME2 squad, then in your second paragraph you claim the ME1 squad was dropped because everyone hated them (which is a blatant lie) and what's even more hilarious, then recycle my own argument to explain why Wrex wasn't in the game. You even say people would have been angry if they got one less squaddie. Duh. What happens when you start arbitarily bringing possibly dead people back from ME2? People suddenly WON'T be upset they get less squaddies than people who save everyone?

To that I say: exactly. See what they did to Wrex. Realize, that they already knew the implications about making characters "mortal". Something that Garrus and Tali weren't in ME1. Think about it. Did they make things harder for themselves FOR NO REASON AT ALL? Or did they "burn their ships", to commit themselves to an approach from which there could be no wavering despite lots of fan QQ.

[FriendofGarrus]

I don't see what the excuse will be to separate Garrus from the crew....he has absolutely nothing else to do. I suppose they could make him a Spectre (since he mentioned training for it in the past). That is the only other option.



Some characters are easy to explain away even if they survive: Zaeed's contract is up, Samara goes back to being a Justicar, Legion returns to the Geth, Grunt goes to Tuchanka to join the Krogan Battles. Tali is tricky....especially if she was exiled. If she was exiled she has nothing to return to (unless they pull some BS like granting her access back to the Flotilla after her heroics against the Collectors).



Jacob could rejoin the alliance. Subject Zero is a difficult character to resolve if she survived. Maybe set up a foundation for biotic children who were abused? Miranda also seems difficult. Maybe Miranda could dedicate herself to watching over her sister- or work privately for one of the science companies in security (Exo Geni, etc.)

[Wildhide]

With most long term stories spread over several chapters, novels, movies, games, whatever... you have characters come and go, and others stay the entire time. Because of the emphasis on the party, I find it unlikely the will remove the majority of the current party. Not many of them have valid reasons for leaving, on top of that.



It's far more likely that Liara and Virmire survivor will join the current squad sans a few people. Likely departures include Thane and Zaaed. That said, most multi-installment plots that have 1 central character also tend to have consistent sidecharacters that exist between the Hero and the several members that shift in and out. Garrus and Tali seem to be serving this role, and I'm glad, because I like both characters a lot. They're Gimli and Legolas to Shepard's Aragorn. Chewie and Leia to Han, etc etc.



I like to believe that Bioware was the writing talents to maintain a solid plot without ditching 50% of the backstory they've build up. ME3 is intended to be a climax, something to bring the first two games crashing together in a final bang. Removing the current squad from ME2 won't facilitate this in my mind, and they know how to put a decent story together.



So my opinion, I would like to think they'll keep a lot of the great characters they created, bring back the only 2 old ones left, and add a few more. Voila. Personally, I think doing otherwise might damage my opinion of the next game, no matter how good it turns out overall. But I have faith in Bioware to make it work, as they've created some of my favorite stories in video games.

[FriendofGarrus]

Oh and Thane is terminally ill so he is easy to remove as well.

[FriendofGarrus]

Wildhide wrote...

With most long term stories spread over several chapters, novels, movies, games, whatever... you have characters come and go, and others stay the entire time. Because of the emphasis on the party, I find it unlikely the will remove the majority of the current party. Not many of them have valid reasons for leaving, on top of that.

It's far more likely that Liara and Virmire survivor will join the current squad sans a few people. Likely departures include Thane and Zaaed. That said, most multi-installment plots that have 1 central character also tend to have consistent sidecharacters that exist between the Hero and the several members that shift in and out. Garrus and Tali seem to be serving this role, and I'm glad, because I like both characters a lot. They're Gimli and Legolas to Shepard's Aragorn. Chewie and Leia to Han, etc etc.

I like to believe that Bioware was the writing talents to maintain a solid plot without ditching 50% of the backstory they've build up. ME3 is intended to be a climax, something to bring the first two games crashing together in a final bang. Removing the current squad from ME2 won't facilitate this in my mind, and they know how to put a decent story together.

So my opinion, I would like to think they'll keep a lot of the great characters they created, bring back the only 2 old ones left, and add a few more. Voila. Personally, I think doing otherwise might damage my opinion of the next game, no matter how good it turns out overall. But I have faith in Bioware to make it work, as they've created some of my favorite stories in video games.

I agree but based on the experience from ME1 it seems unlikely. As a poster before mentioned: everyone is mortal in this game. Garrus and Tali were protected in ME1 (same with Liara and the virmire survivor). I think Wrex is pretty indicative of how the survivors from the suivide mission will be treated. I hope not, but that is what I suspect.

[Faerlyte]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

citizen_snipsV1 wrote...


Bravo TC, exactly what i knew but couldnt put to words as well.
Lets just hope bioware remembers that fact and doesnt bombarde us with new teammates we wont grow to care about, and instead brings back our favorites, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Thane, whoever, so we can continue to flesh out those who helped us get to this stage, and have them next to us in the final battle, of which should be one of the most climactic battles ever

Please Bioware, bring them back, we want them, add a few new people but leave a huge number for our favorites<3

The same argument was used to plead for the ME1 squad being in ME2 instead of a bunch of new psychos no one would care about. Bioware ignored it.

They will ignore this as well.

How can characters like Tali and Garrus be in ME3, when they died during the suicide mission? You think Bioware removed their character shields from ME1 for no reason? Especially since they already had experience with Wrex' situation, knowing how difficult it would be to bring back someone who can die, no matter the fan outcry?

I'd say they did this to commit themselves to a course. Like Cortez burning his ships.

New squad + Liara and the Virmire survivor in ME3. And I will be glad. Well, mostly, I will miss Miranda and Mordin.

Wow, that's odd. Because last time I checked both Garrus and Tali were alive and well at the end of my game - since when should it matter to me who lived or died in your game? I don't care and it should have no bearing on MY game, because there are supposedly consequences for our choices. Basically, if someone dies, it's because you decided to skip part of the game or make bad decisions during the final mission, thus killing off part of your squad. Why should I suffer the consequences for someone else's laziness when I got my entire squad out alive? 

What if...the people who get all of the characters out alive in their play through get certain ones back in ME3 as squadmates, and the ones who didn't get them out alive, don't? What a concept! You obviously don't want them back anyway, so what skin is it off your nose if those of us who saved them do? Damn those consequences - guess you'll just have to play through ME2 again if you really want them. It's not like we can't. 

It's not that difficult actually. Bioware obviously decided that they just weren't bringing Wrex back. That doesn't mean anything for ME3 because they can do whatever they feel like doing, including bringing some of the ME3 squadmates back. 

We got part of our squad back in ME2, so technically they didn't ignore that, though it's possible that was their plan all along. Nobody knows, except those working at Bioware. 

Modifié par Faerlyte, 04 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

I still don't see why people assume just because it happened in ME2 that it will be done in ME3, the finale, which will have to be done -differently-. Seriously. Just because it happened once doesn't mean it's ALWAYS going to happen that way.

[Mox Ruuga]

Still no answer to my question:

Why were the character shields of Garrus and Tali, the very feature that made it so easy for Bioware to include them in ME2, removed? To have Liara and the Virmire survivor retain THEIR character shields, they were kept out of the ME2 squad. This is straight from Bioware themselves, not speculation.

Why are Garrus and Tali now "mortal"? For no reason at all? Or is there a reason some of you are unwilling to accept, or even consider?

[citizen_snipsV1]

Hold on

Here is an example of the reasoning we have. So many people are saying Liara can easily be a part of me3 since she wasnt a part of the suicide mission. And yet effectively, she could not even exist in some peoples Me1. She is an optional character, you dont even need to recruit her, she could not even exist in Mass Effect 1. Same goes for Garrus, you meet him but he is not a team mate you even need to recruit.

So why couldnt Bioware do something such as...

Say Legion survived the mission, it reads he is alive, and therefore there is an optional side mission that will allow him to be recruitable

If this is not possible, why couldnt they do somethign such as...When recruiting the new team mates they install for me3, if you had me2 team mates survive, they cna be a part of that mission and be recruited instead of the default character, and this in no way would affect the storyline, as they would be self contained and on the ship, not a part of the general story. Thye hadt he option woth smaara and morinth i dont see how they cant just have them available for if you survived or not, and added bonus to those who had them survive and new characters if not.

Its not impossible as the team mates ont need to affect the storyline, instead of new character A they put in Legion who maybe you choose over him and now you bring legion to the battle instead of the new character

Simple.

[FriendofGarrus]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Still no answer to my question:

Why were the character shields of Garrus and Tali, the very feature that made it so easy for Bioware to include them in ME2, removed? To have Liara and the Virmire survivor retain THEIR character shields, they were kept out of the ME2 squad. This is straight from Bioware themselves, not speculation.

Why are Garrus and Tali now "mortal"? For no reason at all? Or is there a reason some of you are unwilling to accept, or even consider?

This argument makes sense...I accepted that a while ago. The problem is that many of you are still thinking about this in terms of your specific game. Bioware has to make a product that is accessible to everyone regardless of the outcome of the last mission (or if they never played Mass Effect before). I can't imagine a team creating hundreds of lines of dialogue and hypothetical mission and interactions for characters that may not even be in some people's games. It doesn't make sense from a design standpoint. Thus the most likely scenario is what happened to Wrex. We may see them, but they won't be recruitable.

I also agree that Liara and the Virmire survivor seem set to return. I would love to be surprised and have Garrus and Tali back in the squad but since they were mortal in ME2 there is no guarantee.

[FriendofGarrus]

citizen_snipsV1 wrote...

Hold on

Here is an example of the reasoning we have. So many people are saying Liara can easily be a part of me3 since she wasnt a part of the suicide mission. And yet effectively, she could not even exist in some peoples Me1. She is an optional character, you dont even need to recruit her, she could not even exist in Mass Effect 1. Same goes for Garrus, you meet him but he is not a team mate you even need to recruit.

So why couldnt Bioware do something such as...

Say Legion survived the mission, it reads he is alive, and therefore there is an optional side mission that will allow him to be recruitable

If this is not possible, why couldnt they do somethign such as...When recruiting the new team mates they install for me3, if you had me2 team mates survive, they cna be a part of that mission and be recruited instead of the default character, and this in no way would affect the storyline, as they would be self contained and on the ship, not a part of the general story. Thye hadt he option woth smaara and morinth i dont see how they cant just have them available for if you survived or not, and added bonus to those who had them survive and new characters if not.

Its not impossible as the team mates ont need to affect the storyline, instead of new character A they put in Legion who maybe you choose over him and now you bring legion to the battle instead of the new character

Simple.

Are you sure that Garrus and Liara are *optional*? I don't think they would be major characters in ME2 if their recruitment was optional. But it has been a long time since I played ME.

[Direwolf0294]

I want them to be my main squad in ME3 but I heard Bioware was all ready working on a new squad

[shinobi602]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I want them to be my main squad in ME3 but I heard Bioware was all ready working on a new squad

Where did you "hear" this by chance? I'm interested.

[ThatDancingTurian]

You're using circular logic to try and 'prove' your speculation, Mox. We get it, you didn't like the ME2 group and you're bitter about whichever boring ME1 character wasn't in it, so your excuse is that they did it to 'save' the ME1 characters, and thus the others don't matter. Whatever.



There are many reasons why Kaidan/Ash and Liara weren't in it. Maybe they just -wanted- to give you the opportunity to cheat on them. Maybe they thought having your LIs spend time apart from you gave time for new interesting dynamics in the next one. Why doesn't that apply to ME2 LIs? Because they had to be in the game for you to experience the romance at all.



But the idea that just because people who died weren't teammates in the second one 'proves' that they aren't going to be teammates in the third one makes no sense. You can't build a reasonable theory on a singular example. You need more variables.



If there's one rule in storytelling, it's that you don't change the cast in the third installment of a trilogy. It's a waste of time better spent on the climax of the story.

[Mox Ruuga]

FriendofGarrus wrote...

Are you sure that Garrus and Liara are *optional*? I don't think they would be major characters in ME2 if their recruitment was optional. But it has been a long time since I played ME.

Garrus is optional, but you do meet him in every game, and he can't die in ME1.

Liara, like Tali, are the "must have, can't die" squaddies of ME1.

You don't have to bring Wrex along, either.

Hm... Has anyone made a playthrough yet, where the imported Shepard left both Garrus and Wrex to cool their heels on the Citadel? Would their interactions be different?

[citizen_snipsV1]

"This argument makes sense...I accepted that a while ago. The problem is that many of you are still thinking about this in terms of your specific game. Bioware has to make a product that is accessible to everyone regardless of the outcome of the last mission (or if they never played Mass Effect before). I can't imagine a team creating hundreds of lines of dialogue and hypothetical mission and interactions for characters that may not even be in some people's games. It doesn't make sense from a design standpoint. Thus the most likely scenario is what happened to Wrex. We may see them, but they won't be recruitable."



I also agree that Liara and the Virmire survivor seem set to return. I would love to be surprised and have Garrus and Tali back in the squad but since they were mortal in ME2 there is no guarantee.



Well in all honesty, isnt that what they did with Grunt, Samara, Morinth, Legion, Zaeed and every character but especially those ones? They created dialogue and missions and interaction for characters that can simply not even be a part of the game, that can be ignored entirely.



Grunt can not even be opened up..i highly doubt anyone wouldn't open him up but you don't have too, some people might have had no idea and simply not opened him up



Samara can be killed and replaced by Morinth, so effectively half of ones dialogue is gone, but they still did both. Morinth might never be discovered by some who dont do more than one play through on the same file, but they put the time in.



Legion can be sold, so his almost entire dialogue, interactions, and loyalty mission can be out the window



Some don't have xbox live, so Zaeed could no exist in some peoples games



Together all those scenarios add up to quite a few lines and time put into something that might not exist, but really..think about it, the entire series has had this goal, having so much content that makes every game unique. From the Me1 decisions transferring over to almost no forced events, mass effect 1 and 2 have so much variables that too say its far fetched for them to add a few short side missions or havet he morinth/samara decision thrown in a few times.