147 réponses à ce sujet

[The_KFD_Case]

Faerlyte wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

1nigoMontoya wrote...
Plus Bioware could easily require certain members to be alive in order to import much like having Shepard alive is a requirement.

Never thought of that. Interesting. *strokes goatee*

Why would they screw their players over like that?

Choices matter in this game, remember?

What choice is there if from the very beginning none of the ME2 cast will have any relevance in ME3 because it's possible for any one of them to be dead? There is no choice by that reasoning. If choices matter, than having them alive should have as much bearing on ME3 as having them dead. Otherwise, there isn't a choice at all - they've essentially taken it away from us. 

Those characters might as well be dead if all they are is a cameo in ME3 in my mind. Our choice to save them is supposed to matter also. 

None of that is really relevant at present time since the entire argument you present hinges on the supposition that BioWare will hang the players who transfer their characters out to dry. I don't know about you, but I was highly impressed by just how many details - large and small - that BioWare carried over from my "ME1" save to "ME2". Those choices I made did matter and while BioWare might drop the ball with "ME3" there is no hard evidence that they will. On the contrary "ME2" is hard proof that they are likely to have players' actions/decisions carry over to "ME3". Just like they did with "ME1" to "ME2".

Will all of the "ME2" cast make it as active party members in "ME3"? Heck if I know. I certainly would like to see many of them make the transition, though I can also appreciate that the party size might become too big given the arrival of two old party members from "ME1". That said, I will be miffed if they take away Tali as an active party member and romance option (and I want to get a good, long, hard look at her face next time around, ya hear BioWare! Please?)

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 04 février 2010 - 08:36 .

[Lord Atlia]

This how I see things (I am biased towards Tali as a heads up)

1: This is the last game, ME2 you could sideline characters because there was still more story to tell.

2: Liara fans for the most part (some Kaidan/Ashley) are very bitter that she was not in the game and wish ill upon Tali and Garrus fans, mainly Tali fans because they zerg the forums with hundreds of topics, the Garrus fans are more organized.

3: ME2 was about assembling a crew, ME3 will be about rallying an army, Bioware doesn't have time to create deep characters and a deep story. If ME2 just had the collectors story it would be bad, period, the characters are the heart and soul.

4: If characters died on your game, they will not be part of ME3, so depending on how well you did your squad will vary in size. From ME1 to ME2 you had to worry about actions snowballing (Ash living on Virmire but dying during the suicide run). Since there is no ME4, Bioware does not have to worry about events from ME2 impacting anything beyond ME3.

5: Some people assume the cost of keeping a character in the game is astronomically high. They've already said there are no graphical overhauls so they have all the characters designed, they just need to pay the VAs and maybe do a few custom cinemas.

6: Where would some of these people go, Tali is a crew member of the Normandy the best they could try is to make her an admiral, Garrus has even less options realistically.

7: Economics (supply/demand), while I've believe at times the Tali and Garrus fan bases are inflated, most polling shows those characters widely ahead of others (there was a poll on this very site and the Tali base almost consumed the Liara and Ashly base combined). They are bringing back characters that could die and are widely less popular than Tali or Garrus (I'm looking at you Kaidan) it would be unprofitable to not bring back the top 2 or sideline them.

[The_KFD_Case]

Lord Atlia wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

citizen_snipsV1 wrote...


Bravo TC, exactly what i knew but couldnt put to words as well.
Lets just hope bioware remembers that fact and doesnt bombarde us with new teammates we wont grow to care about, and instead brings back our favorites, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Thane, whoever, so we can continue to flesh out those who helped us get to this stage, and have them next to us in the final battle, of which should be one of the most climactic battles ever

Please Bioware, bring them back, we want them, add a few new people but leave a huge number for our favorites<3

The same argument was used to plead for the ME1 squad being in ME2 instead of a bunch of new psychos no one would care about. Bioware ignored it.

They will ignore this as well.

How can characters like Tali and Garrus be in ME3, when they died during the suicide mission? You think Bioware removed their character shields from ME1 for no reason? Especially since they already had experience with Wrex' situation, knowing how difficult it would be to bring back someone who can die, no matter the fan outcry?

I'd say they did this to commit themselves to a course. Like Cortez burning his ships.

New squad + Liara and the Virmire survivor in ME3. And I will be glad. Well, mostly, I will miss Miranda and Mordin.

Your bitterness towards Tali clouds your mind Mox Ruuga.

Huh? What is Mox on about? My Tali was by my side the entire run through the end suicide mission and came out alive and well on the other end (although with a fever, a nasty cough and a very runny nose after some quality time together without a face mask, etc). Tali MUST come back as a fully playable romance character in "ME3". I insist.

[The_KFD_Case]

"None of the squaddies of ME2 is so tightly tied to Shepard, that they
couldn't be off to do their own thing in ME3. It doesn't matter if you
romanced them, either. Look what Liara, Ash, and Kaidan got up to during
ME2. Really "warm" reunion we had with them, eh?"

The main difference between "ME2" to "ME3" vs. "ME1" to "ME2" presumably being that Shepard won't be dead to the galaxy for neigh on two years. Sure, BioWare could pull a similar stunt again but such acts strike me as decidedly "FF" (fire and forget); they shock and advance the story the first time. Second time around and it has lost all the razzle dazzle story telling magic it held because it's not new and exciting which is one of the main, if not the main, reason(s) people stick with a story.

[Sageless Ranger]

just beat the game for the first time, hell yeah!!! all crew survived, didnt rescue kelly chambers though =( will in final playthrough, didnt know you had to immedialty go through relay, the way th game neds with all of your crew looking at you and nodding, basically there saying, ok whats next? I think that all of them will definitely be in ME3

[The_KFD_Case]

Pablo61 wrote...

Maybe I'm biased because I took the time to save everyone, but I'd like to see Bioware actually stick to their guns on the choices matter thing. I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but I would prefer a system in which the size of your team depends on your ME2 save. They could set a cannon set of characters for any late comers to the ME-verse in ME3, but otherwise,the size of your team is directly related to how much time you put into ME2. If you saved everyone, then kudos to you, you get to continue on with your full team into ME2. However, if you lost 2 or 3 squad mates, that's your loss for ME3, you'll have to deal with the consequences of letting them die. In my case, I have a super loyal team and everyone survived. What better crew is there to fight with against the Reapers? Obviously, some squad mates just CANT return (Thane *sigh* Unless they cure him...), leaving room for a couple of new squad mates, but other than that, I'd much prefer a system that was based on our decisions. That seems to be the premise of ME anyways. Unfortunately, I fear a lot of people might find this approach to harsh. Just my two cents.

Your words do not strike me as being harsh. They seem quite reasonable given the way BioWare directly impacted "ME2" with "ME1" transfer saves that rewarded the player (and it wasn't just measly rewards either in my opinion). I agree with you and I would be delighted to see BioWare stick to their guns. It would cement what appears to be an interesting-if-mind-twisting way to approach modern gaming.

As another poster pointed out, yes all of this is effectively idle speculation where arguments and counter arguments and counter-counter arguments can be launched as to why and how one character returns or doesn't, ad infinitum.  I accept that, yet it doesn't diminish the enjoyment I derive from eagerly examing possible twists and turns the "ME" story may take.

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 04 février 2010 - 09:06 .

[Mox Ruuga]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

The main difference between "ME2" to "ME3" vs. "ME1" to "ME2" presumably being that Shepard won't be dead to the galaxy for neigh on two years. Sure, BioWare could pull a similar stunt again but such acts strike me as decidedly "FF" (fire and forget); they shock and advance the story the first time. Second time around and it has lost all the razzle dazzle story telling magic it held because it's not new and exciting which is one of the main, if not the main, reason(s) people stick with a story.

How do you know? More specifically, how do you know there won't be another plot device that breaks up the suicide squad? Or the members who choose to stay with Shepard (not all of them likely would)?

Consider the structure of the Mass Effect games.

You begin with two squaddies, so far it's been the "male and female leads" of the story. Gathering speed in the story, we build up our squad. In ME1 it was done right at the beginning, in ME2 it WAS the story. Whatever happens, I'm fairly sure we won't begin with a full complement of squaddies, but will get to recruit people we meet once again.

The game won't literally begin from the moment the last one ended. There will be some transition, unless they destroy the Normandy again (which would be a possible "jump the shark" moment of contrivance and repetition).

[The_KFD_Case]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

The main difference between "ME2" to "ME3" vs. "ME1" to "ME2" presumably being that Shepard won't be dead to the galaxy for neigh on two years. Sure, BioWare could pull a similar stunt again but such acts strike me as decidedly "FF" (fire and forget); they shock and advance the story the first time. Second time around and it has lost all the razzle dazzle story telling magic it held because it's not new and exciting which is one of the main, if not the main, reason(s) people stick with a story.

How do you know? More specifically, how do you know there won't be another plot device that breaks up the suicide squad? Or the members who choose to stay with Shepard (not all of them likely would)?

Consider the structure of the Mass Effect games.

You begin with two squaddies, so far it's been the "male and female leads" of the story. Gathering speed in the story, we build up our squad. In ME1 it was done right at the beginning, in ME2 it WAS the story. Whatever happens, I'm fairly sure we won't begin with a full complement of squaddies, but will get to recruit people we meet once again.

The game won't literally begin from the moment the last one ended. There will be some transition, unless they destroy the Normandy again (which would be a possible "jump the shark" moment of contrivance and repetition).

The answer to your question already exists in my post that you have quoted. I stated that given a lack of evidence to the contrary while evidence exists to support the notion, it seems likely that it will be a key difference. Given BioWare's long history of focusing on adept game play and in-depth stories it seems unlikely they will need to stoop to using the same story mechanic again in regards to killing Shepard. Is it possible that they will do it again? Certainly; most things are possible to one extent or another if taken far enough out in to the field of theoretical scenarios. I'm not sweating it until I hear more concrete news from BioWare regarding "ME3". If you want to do so then that is your prerogative. All I'm saying is that it seems way too early to start hurling accusations at perceived failings of "ME3" when "ME2" has just barely made it to the retail stores and digital outlets. I don't "know" this in the empirical sense yet conversely neither do you in the opposite, and we can go on and out this way until we are dead and buried short of an exterior authority setting the record in stone (which will be the arrival of "ME3" which brings us back to the previous point about just relaxing a bit).

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 04 février 2010 - 09:18 .

[AoiSakuraba]

Personally I think it would be nice to have both, and I think it'd very realistic to have both. the first 2 mass effect games were preperation for full scale war the crew and such will need to be ALOT larger for ME3

[TLK Spires]

more like 'ME2 characters as squadmates in ME3 is probably going to be the case'.



name one good trilogy that introduced a significant, brand new character in its final installment. hard to think of one, isn't it?

[Mox Ruuga]

The_KFD_Case wrote...


The answer to your question already exists in my post that you have quoted. I stated that given a lack of evidence to the contrary while evidence exists to support the notion, it seems likely that it will be a key difference. Given BioWare's long history of focusing on adept game play and in-depth stories it seems unlikely they will need to stoop to using the same story mechanic again in regards to killing Shepard. Is it possible that they will do it again? Certainly; most things are possible to one extent or another if taken far enough out in to the field of theoretical scenarios. I'm not sweating it until I hear more concrete news from BioWare regarding "ME3". If you want to get worked up about it that's your business.

Did I say Shepard needs to be dead for two years? I didn't. There will be some other plot device to break up the squad, is all. The ME2 squaddies will likely be off tied up in their own business, should they have survived.

[SomethinNothing]

It's really simple, all, or at least most of them should come back and have a lot of individual side content devoted to them as per the OPs post. The default storyline for players starting with ME3 should have them all listed as surviving the mission from ME2.

If you import from ME2 and they didn't survive the mission then you miss out on the content devoted to them. This is not Bioware's fault, it's your fault for not caring enough to make sure all of your characters made it through the mission alive whether you did it on the first try or had to rerun it until you got things right.

The Mass Effect trilogy is all about your decisions and dealing with the consequences of those decisions, and this would simply be a natural progression of that. Most of those who make it through ME2 and do lose characters will still likely have a good amount of their squad alive anyway, and, should they decide to accept the deaths of those they lost in ME2, they will still have plenty of content to experience in ME3 with those who did survive.

If they can't accept the loss of a bit of content then they should stop whining and just get a perfect clear on ME2 already. No one is stopping them.

Modifié par SomethinNothing, 04 février 2010 - 09:20 .

[Mox Ruuga]

TLK Spires wrote...

more like 'ME2 characters as squadmates in ME3 is probably going to be the case'.

name one good trilogy that introduced a significant, brand new character in its final installment. hard to think of one, isn't it?

In devs' own words, think of ME more as Indiana Jones rather than Star Wars or LOTR, when it comes to returning characters and love interests.

[The_KFD_Case]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...


The answer to your question already exists in my post that you have quoted. I stated that given a lack of evidence to the contrary while evidence exists to support the notion, it seems likely that it will be a key difference. Given BioWare's long history of focusing on adept game play and in-depth stories it seems unlikely they will need to stoop to using the same story mechanic again in regards to killing Shepard. Is it possible that they will do it again? Certainly; most things are possible to one extent or another if taken far enough out in to the field of theoretical scenarios. I'm not sweating it until I hear more concrete news from BioWare regarding "ME3". If you want to get worked up about it that's your business.

Did I say Shepard needs to be dead for two years? I didn't. There will be some other plot device to break up the squad, is all. The ME2 squaddies will likely be off tied up in their own business, should they have survived.

Which you don't know (see my amended previous post). Again, this is idle supposition and it's going nowhere fast.

[Mox Ruuga]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Which you don't know (see my amended previous post). Again, this is idle supposition and it's going nowhere fast.

Well, it's the best we can do until Bioware starts actually giving us info on ME3. Which won't be for a bit.

I do hope they start maintaining a heavier mod/dev presence in this forum soon, tho. Too much inane flooding and spam. And it would be interesting to discuss ME2 details with the devs, now that we have finally played the game and they can't simply tell us to "wait and see".

[ThatDancingTurian]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

In
devs' own words, think of ME more as Indiana Jones rather than Star
Wars or LOTR, when it comes to returning characters and love
interests.

And so far it has. That doesn't mean it has to follow
the Indiana Jones formula to the tee. Just because it's more Indiana
Jones than Star Wars doesn't mean the supporting cast is going to
change every time. It could just mean Han and Leia took the back seat
during that whole Hoth thing. And frankly, if we are going to imagine that there's a direct correlation between Indiana Jones and ME3, then Garrus and Tali are obviously our Brody and Sallah, so there's no way they're not going to be in the game.

You're taking one vague line and blowing it all out of proportion just because you think it supports your argument.

[Lord Atlia]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

TLK Spires wrote...

more like 'ME2 characters as squadmates in ME3 is probably going to be the case'.

name one good trilogy that introduced a significant, brand new character in its final installment. hard to think of one, isn't it?

In devs' own words, think of ME more as Indiana Jones rather than Star Wars or LOTR, when it comes to returning characters and love interests.

Well than I guess Tali and Garrus fuse into the Marcus Brody of ME and will be back.

[NeonMeat]

fogofeternity wrote...


The argument seems to go; "they could have died in ME2, so Bioware won't write story in case the player won't experience it." But it's hardly a serious stretch for Bioware to develop all of these characters' stories further, even if some players won't experience all of them on first play through.  Games developers for good RPGs always have a lot of redundant material that will only be available to players on multiple playthroughs, and never all in one story. e.g. in DA:O you don't even have to have any of your potential LI in your party.

Each squad member's story (in both ME1 and ME2) is effectively self contained, and has little impact on the other squad members. Therefore it doesn't really matter in what combination squad members of ME2 died or survived. 

/snip

I'd be really surprised if at least half of the ME2 squadmates didn't also make it into ME3 as squadmates.

I agree that many of the new squad mates from ME2 could easily return in ME3, but i do not agree about continuing their individual back stories in any meaningful way. Good rpg's should have tons of content that can't been seen in one play through, but there was literally nothing in the way of redundancy designed into ME2, i saw everything on my first play through. Sure there were superficial differences relating to the council/wrex/kaidan/ashley, but they amounted to less than 10 minutes of dialogue in the entire game. None of those differences resulted in unique missions or oportunities being offered to the player.

If they spend a lot of development time/money exploring the new characters further in ME3, we will likely get another lackluster main plot, that ends up being too short and not at all satisfying. ME3 needs to be really epic, and i feel that we will be spending a lot of time recruiting entire races to join the fight. Liara will absolutely play a large part in ME3 that much is for certain, and her story will no doubt be expanded upon heavily, but i just can't see it happening with the new cast members.

Modifié par NeonMeat, 04 février 2010 - 09:41 .

[NeonMeat]

*EDIT* double post.

Modifié par NeonMeat, 04 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[Xandurpein]

I think that if we are to take the developers literally when they say that the game was planned to have a 3 part LI story, then the characters that could fit the bill are:

Ashley, Kaidan, Liara, Tali and Garrus.

I haven't explored all these yet, but it's obvious that if you romanced Ashley, she is ment to make a comeback as LI in ME3, and I assume it's the same with Kaidan/Liara.

Tali can certainly be seen as a 3 part romance. Tali basically tells you in ME2 that she has had a big crush on Shepard already in ME1 too, but never said anything.



The idea that Tali/Garrus cannot be LI in ME3 because they can die in ME2 is ridiculous as you can romance Ashley in ME1 and have her killed on Virmire. I know of more than one person who romanced Ashley and then mistakenly got her killed on Virmire thinking they had a chance at saving both. Besides if you are that keen on Tali, you will just replay the end on ME2 until you save her.



The real reason why you would want to exclude some LI from previous games in ME3 is that it is so much harder to make a good game out of it. A great part of the satisfaction of a game LI comes from "winning" the heart of your chosen. That's why you don't get a sex scene with your LI until the end. To make the romance have some spark in ME3 it would need some obstacle to overcome.



I think that in the case of Ashley and Liara the stage is set in ME2. Liara is seriously messed up mentally and require some help to find herself again. Your last conversation with Ashley in ME2 ends badly and you need to patch it up. It' not hard to find reasons why a romance with Tali would have problems either, both her biology and her extreme sense of duty to her people can present difficulties that needs to be overcome. I haven't played any femshep romances so I won't say anything about them, but I'm sure it'll work.



My guess is that those 5 will be the main LI in ME3, but that's just me guessing of course.

[Mox Ruuga]

Lord Atlia wrote...

Well than I guess Tali and Garrus fuse into the Marcus Brody of ME and will be back.

Actually, they already used their "return" ticket with ME2.

If they are Brody, they will die offscreen deaths (should they have even survived the suicide mission in the first place) between ME2 and ME3... 



Seriously, Brody is more someone like Joker and Chakwas, even Anderson. I have little doubt characters like them will be returning in similar enough roles for ME3.

Garrus is Shortround, Tali is Willie Scott.

[Barquiel]

I don't think we need new squadmates but I am not very optimistic

ME1: Wrex, Ashley, Kaidan can die - cameo's in ME2
DA/DA Awakening: most characters can die - only one "old favorite" returns (Oghren? not fan favorites like Morrigan or Alistair)

Lord Atlia wrote...

Well than I guess Tali and Garrus fuse into the Marcus Brody of ME and will be back.

unlikely...Tali is dead

[SomethinNothing]

Barquiel wrote...

DA/DA Awakening: most characters can die - only one "old favorite" returns (Oghren? not fan favorites like Morrigan or Alistair)

Anyone who doesn't also consider Oghren as one of their favorites has no soul.

[Barquiel]

I like Oghren, but he wouldn't be my first choice for "one old favorite"

[mcvxiii]

KelaSaar wrote...

I think the argument that no squad members from ME2 will carry over is a bit silly. First, it would completely invalidate about 80% of the second game. Also, Bioware has shown in many of their games that they are willing to put in resources for characters not everyone will have. In ME1 and ME2 a full third of the characters are optional, and in Dragon Age 7 of the 9 party members are optional. Frankly, if you managed to kill that many people on your ME2 squad, I don't know why you would want to import it in the first place.

What? How would that invalidate about 80% of ME2? The focus of ME2 to was to recruit a team then go on a suicide mission and through the course of the game that is what one did. Now it might not be emotionally satisfying for some if none return as full crew members but that would not be a 80% invalidation of the game. This is the first trilogy that BioWare has made as far as I can recall so there is no real precedent on how they will handle this or how much resources they will or won't dedicate to characters that not everyone will have. The only precedent we do have is how it was done from ME1 to ME2.