147 réponses à ce sujet

[SomethinNothing]

mcvxiii wrote...

The only precedent we do have is how it was done from ME1 to ME2.

I wouldn't really consider that a valid precedent either though as certainly a finale has to be quite different from a middle act such as ME2. There are certain plot lines that have to be wrapped up regardless for the trilogy to feel like a complete one, all of the LI stuff to name one example, so it's going to likely require a different rule set as far as who is a valid squadmember than ME2 did.

[fogofeternity]

 

This argument makes sense...I accepted that a while ago. The problem is that many of you are still thinking about this in terms of your specific game. Bioware has to make a product that is accessible to everyone regardless of the outcome of the last mission (or if they never played Mass Effect before). I can't imagine a team creating hundreds of lines of dialogue and hypothetical mission and interactions for characters that may not even be in some people's games. It doesn't make sense from a design standpoint. Thus the most likely scenario is what happened to Wrex. We may see them, but they won't be recruitable.

But I don't agree with the premise that because they might not be in the game then Bioware definitely won't include them as squadmates. It suggests that it's some impossibly lengthy task for Bioware to incorporate these characters, something they'd never do because not all players would get to experience it. I think that's rubbish.

I can see more reason for not transferring an ME1 character who could die to ME2, because ME2 is specifically focused on squad development and therefore a full and lengthy mission is required for each party member. On that basis, makes sense for Wrex to be a cameo because that is a lot of work in terms of graphics, scripting and game balance for a character who might be dead.

ME3 presumably won't have such a focus on each individual squad member. So you're looking at primarly dialogue and Normandy based scenes. Character models don't need an update because the software and game engine isn't being updated.

I don't see the argument that it's somehow impossible for Bioware to dedicate resources to this.

Closest equivalent in terms of game engine staying the same, and third part of the trilogy being "expansion pack writ large" in software terms is Throne of Bhaal. In that game *every* character from Baldur's Gate 2 was available, and extensive LI options were added for three characters. Given that there were far more possible party members than party places, that means huge amounts of "redundant" material which could only be found on multiple playthroughs. Much as can be done with ME.

[Taritu]

Hope the OP is right.



I doubt it, mind you, but I hope I'm wrong.

[The_KFD_Case]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Which you don't know (see my amended previous post). Again, this is idle supposition and it's going nowhere fast.

Well, it's the best we can do until Bioware starts actually giving us info on ME3. Which won't be for a bit.

I do hope they start maintaining a heavier mod/dev presence in this forum soon, tho. Too much inane flooding and spam. And it would be interesting to discuss ME2 details with the devs, now that we have finally played the game and they can't simply tell us to "wait and see".

Heh! I imagine that some of them are off on to some - in my opinion - well deserved rest and recreation after "ME2"s launch. That said, the sooner "ME3" in all it's expected glory arrives the better as far as I'm concerned! Developer blurbs and info will be welcomed too!

[Gocad]

I doubt that all ME2 squad members will remain usable for ME3. I'm not saying that they won't be returning, but I can't imagine that they won't add new squad members for ME3. So they will need to make room for them, because it's ridiculous to have a dozen squad members competing for 2 slots.

First of all, Shepard and the crew DON'T know that the reapers are underway, so from their point of view the mission they had come together for, is over. A
nd since some had only come aboard to fight the collectors (Thane, Samara, Zaeed, etc.) there is no point for them to stick around.
Time will pass between ME2 and ME3 (because it would be silly to assume that the galaxy would be ready for hundreds of reapers a week after the collector base had been dealt with), so some members will probably move on.
Samara, for example will move on to fight injustice (on Omega perhaps), Thane will probably die in the meantime (that scenario is simply too interesting to pass up, him receiving some miracle cure or something like "Hey Thane, still terminally ill but able to shoot bad people?" would be terribly boring IMHO), Zaeed was paid by Cerberus to join fighting the collectors and I can't imagine Jack sitting in the bowels of the ship for months, waiting for Shepard to unleash her.

That said, I would trade several ME2 squad members for a ME3 volus, elcor or hanar character. (Preferably all three species) Now make THAT happen, Bioware.
 

Modifié par Gocad, 04 février 2010 - 11:55 .

[The_KFD_Case]

NeonMeat wrote...

fogofeternity wrote...


The argument seems to go; "they could have died in ME2, so Bioware won't write story in case the player won't experience it." But it's hardly a serious stretch for Bioware to develop all of these characters' stories further, even if some players won't experience all of them on first play through.  Games developers for good RPGs always have a lot of redundant material that will only be available to players on multiple playthroughs, and never all in one story. e.g. in DA:O you don't even have to have any of your potential LI in your party.

Each squad member's story (in both ME1 and ME2) is effectively self contained, and has little impact on the other squad members. Therefore it doesn't really matter in what combination squad members of ME2 died or survived. 

/snip

I'd be really surprised if at least half of the ME2 squadmates didn't also make it into ME3 as squadmates.

I agree that many of the new squad mates from ME2 could easily return in ME3, but i do not agree about continuing their individual back stories in any meaningful way. Good rpg's should have tons of content that can't been seen in one play through, but there was literally nothing in the way of redundancy designed into ME2, i saw everything on my first play through. Sure there were superficial differences relating to the council/wrex/kaidan/ashley, but they amounted to less than 10 minutes of dialogue in the entire game. None of those differences resulted in unique missions or oportunities being offered to the player.

If they spend a lot of development time/money exploring the new characters further in ME3, we will likely get another lackluster main plot, that ends up being too short and not at all satisfying. ME3 needs to be really epic, and i feel that we will be spending a lot of time recruiting entire races to join the fight. Liara will absolutely play a large part in ME3 that much is for certain, and her story will no doubt be expanded upon heavily, but i just can't see it happening with the new cast members.

My two cents' worth on what we may see (and which would make for epic proportions):

- Shepard, Tali and Legion forge an uneasy truce/peace between the Quarians and the Geth. The massive Quarian Flotilla and what now appears to be a highly advanced, far move developed and sizeable Geth unified faction actively join in the fray against the Reapers. This averts the likely disasterous consequences of the Quarians taking the fight directly to the Geth in an attempt to reclaim their homeworld. There still remains the omnious foreshadowing of what sort of Faustian deal admiral Xen might end up reaching in her continued interest and pursuit of finding a means to control the Geth (perhaps she becomes a new vessel of corruption for a faction of Geth and/or turns into a synthetic being the way Saren did in ME1?).

- Mordin develops a cure to the genophage at the behest of the ethical discussions he and Shepard share(d). Depending on the time frame the Krograns may see their numbers bolstered to the point that they either become a powerful shock troop juggernaut force again (though perhaps with some restraing under Wrex's unificed clan leadership), or the Krogan population doesn't have time to increase massively before the war (there are still billions of them mind you) yet with new found hope offered in the form of a cure to the genophage they once more rally to the banner (not that much effort is needed to encourage Krogans to fight). During one Cerbers themed conversation with Miranda it is stated that Cerberus had once hoped to train and emply Krogans and Rachni as elite soldiers to tip the scales in front line battles.

- Shepard's decision to let the Rachni queen live, and the follow up conversation with one of her agents on Illium, straight out states that the Rachni and Shepard will combat the Reapers' darkness together.

Granted, all of these three points depend heavily on what your choices were doing both ME1 and ME2 yet each of these three possible developments taken on their own would rock the ME universe. Combine all three at once and it has "epic game play experience" written all over it from where I sit.

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 04 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[The_KFD_Case]

Gocad wrote...

I doubt that all ME2 squad members will remain usable for ME3. I'm not saying that they won't be returning, but I can't imagine that they won't add new squad members for ME3. So they will need to make room for them, because it's ridiculous to have a dozen squad members competing for 2 slots.

First of all, Shepard and the crew DON'T know that the reapers are underway, so from their point of view the mission they had come together for, is over. A
nd since some had only come aboard to fight the collectors (Thane, Samara, Zaeed, etc.) there is no point for them to stick around.
Time will pass between ME2 and ME3 (because it would be silly to assume that the galaxy would be ready for hundreds of reapers a week after the collector base had been dealt with), so some members will probably move on.
Samara, for example will move on to fight injustice (on Omega perhaps), Thane will probably die in the meantime (that scenario is simply too interesting to pass up, him receiving some miracle cure or something like "Hey Thane, still terminally ill but able to shoot bad people?" would be terribly boring IMHO), Zaeed was paid by Cerberus to join fighting the collectors and I can't imagine Jack sitting in the bowels of the ship for months, waiting for Shepard to unleash her.

That said, I would trade several ME2 squad members for a ME3 volus, elcor or hanar character. (Preferably all three species) Now make THAT happen, Bioware.
 

I concur. I wouldn't be opposed to one or two fresh, new faces although bear in mind that apparently a couple of old, friendly faces will be rejoining the crew. The party size for ME2 is getting out of hand for a 2-slot-plus-Shepard active squad. I didn't mind their individual dialogue nor their personal missions - I lapped that stuff right up! But many of the characters only ended up in my active squad when I had to bring them along by default to advance a story plot.

Speaking of Elcor, the Citadel advertisement of an Elcor performance of "Hamlet" had me in stitches; just imagine it: sitting through 14 hours of monotone, pre-emptive explanations of emotion by Elcor involving archaic English prose and verse....

...But all of that pales to what amounts to the Holy Grail of ME: Show us Tali's face and what the Quarians in general look like out of their suits!

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 04 février 2010 - 12:17 .

[arolas6622]

 i think they will mostly all return.. as ME3 will be the final game they wont need to worry about making ecisions integrate into a 4th game.

Not to mention the characters of ME2 are sooo much better then ME1's.

and really most ME2 characters dont have a reason to leave.

other then Zaeed and maybe jack they would all probably stay.

Jacob, Miranda wont go anywhere reguardless of ur decisions.
Garrus wont go anywhere.
Tali is Vas Normandy so she is going no where.
Grunt.. your his battle master..going nowhere.
Samara says that if shepard calls she will come. so shes a phone call away going nowhere.
Thane might die.. but the introduction of his son may lead his son to follow shepard.
Jack develops a genuine likeness towards you so she could stay.
Moradin would probably stay coz to stop the reapers is probably within his goals.
Legion has no reason to leave.
Zaeed he is a merc so he will probably leave. (no loss there )
so i would say its entirely possible for most to come back.

Modifié par arolas6622, 04 février 2010 - 12:16 .

[fogofeternity]

arolas6622 wrote...

and really most ME2 characters dont have a reason to leave.

other then Zaeed and maybe jack they would all probably stay.

Jacob, Miranda wont go anywhere reguardless of ur decisions.
Garrus wont go anywhere.
Tali is Vas Normandy so she is going no where.
Grunt.. your his battle master..going nowhere.
Samara says that if shepard calls she will come. so shes a phone call away going nowhere.
Thane might die.. but the introduction of his son may lead his son to follow shepard.
Jack develops a genuine likeness towards you so she could stay.
Moradin would probably stay coz to stop the reapers is probably within his goals.
Legion has no reason to leave.
Zaeed he is a merc so he will probably leave. (no loss there )
so i would say its entirely possible for most to come back.

While they don't have a reason to leave, many of them also don't have much reason to stay. While I think it's perfectly possible to incorporate all the existing ME2 squad into ME3, my guess is that about half the squad will carry on as squadmates. Along the following lines;

Jacob - will probably stay or be largely written out. I can't see a particular story justification for him leaving, but he was badly underwritten in ME2 and (for me anyway) the least interesting character.

Zaeed - DLC, no dialogue options, one shot, so I expect him to leave.

Grunt - Again I think he's underwritten in ME2, and he's there more for you to learn about Krogan culture than about Grunt himself. But I don't see Wrex coming back, and I can't see the game without a Krogan in the party, so I imagine he'll stay.

Miranda - Pretty sure she'll stay. 

Garrus - Very Shepard loyal, and few story reasons for him to leave, so another definite stay.

Samara/Morinth - Neither of them has any reason to stay, and many reasons to leave. Sure, I can see Samara in particular having a cameo role, but particularly assuming a Liara return Samara is both non-integral to the story and redundant as a character type.

Thane - Depends on when ME3. I think it's going to continue relatively quickly from ME2 in the timeline, which means he can still be around and would stay with the ship. If there's a year or two break, then I don't see how you keep Thane.

Mordin - As many people have said, most likely to become a research/scientist NPC rather than continue as a squadmate.

Legion - I imagine he'll stay, purely by virtue of being underdeveloped in ME2 because of time constraints, and not having any real reason to leave.

Tali - Another definite stay. 

Jack - A tough one for me. If she's not a LI then her story is pretty much over as soon as you finish her loyalty quest, there seems little else to uncover. Without the LI aspect she also has no real reason to stay with the Normandy under nominal Cerberus surveillance/control. Genuinely not sure.

[KalliChan07]

I agree with this post. I see the ME1 members controlling forces for Shepard to utilize (similar to Dragon Age armies at the end).

[FlintlockJazz]

I get the feeling that the move from ME2 to ME3 will be alot like the move from BG2:Shadows of Amn to Throne of Bhaal, just like the move from ME1 to ME2 was like the move from BG1 to BG2, except with the changes being even more drastic.

[fogofeternity]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I get the feeling that the move from ME2 to ME3 will be alot like the move from BG2:Shadows of Amn to Throne of Bhaal, just like the move from ME1 to ME2 was like the move from BG1 to BG2, except with the changes being even more drastic.

Yeah, that's the best parallel I can think of. Particularly given that BG2 to ToB was also the same kind of "expansion pack as a full game" in that it didn't make any updates to the game engine, as is also the case for ME3.

[FriendofGarrus]

fogofeternity wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I get the feeling that the move from ME2 to ME3 will be alot like the move from BG2:Shadows of Amn to Throne of Bhaal, just like the move from ME1 to ME2 was like the move from BG1 to BG2, except with the changes being even more drastic.

Yeah, that's the best parallel I can think of. Particularly given that BG2 to ToB was also the same kind of "expansion pack as a full game" in that it didn't make any updates to the game engine, as is also the case for ME3.

I hope you guys are right but it seems unlikely....

[stefan9]

As long as the LI's stay from both games I will be happy. I want the option to chose between my LI from ME 1 and my new LI from ME2.

[Count_Zero_Interrupt]

I agree with the OP mostly, in that it probably wouldn't be hard for them to write modular sections involving various characters, that can be inserted or removed based on player choices. My problem is, when sections of the game are designed to be self-contained, and have minimal impact on the rest of the plot, it tends to be really obvious. And to me, it makes those sections less meaningful as elements of a larger, cohesive plot.



There were quite a few moments in ME2 where characters would have absolutely no reaction or act in totally generic ways to significant events because it was obvious Bioware simply couldn't cover all their bases with more specifically tailored dialogue/cutscenes/animations. And it really broke the immersion for me.



The whole carrying over your save and tons of variables in the story depending on player choice was very impressive, don't get me wrong. I'm glad Bioware went this route, just to show it can be done. And I hope future games do attempt to improve and refine it in different ways. But personally, given the choice, I would rather play a game where the choices and variables are scaled back a bit in favor of a bit more cinematic depth and detail.

[Count_Zero_Interrupt]

On a lighter note, my speculations on the fate of surviving squad members in ME3...



Jacob - I'm not sure about him. I didn't talk to him much. He doesn't seem to have much reason to stick with Cerberus. Maybe he'll follow Miranda. He seems like a likely candidate to stick with Shepherd, though i hope not because I find him incredibly boring.



Zaeed - Haven't played the DLC, so I haven't met him. But apparently he's a merc who's just along for the money, so he'll leave.



Grunt - At the end of the game he's just starting to figure out his place as a Krogan, so I expect he'll leave to join Krogan society and, similar to Wrex, we'll find him leading his own clan or otherwise making a name for himself amongst his kind in ME3.



Miranda - I didn't romance Miranda, so I don't know how things go in that regard. My impression is that she'll end up sticking with Cerberus either way though, as long as Cerberus doesn't become openly hostile toward Shepherd. She seems to have a lot of history with them (and the illusive man) and obviously a very high position in the organization. Whether she has feelings for Shepherd or not, she seems like the type to take her duties and responsibilities more seriously than her personal feelings. She'll decide she can do more good for humanity by martialling Cerberus' resources to prepare for the Reapers. If she died, her role in the story will be filled by a new Cerberus NPC operative.



Garrus - Garrus seems pretty loyal to Shepherd, and doesn't have any reasons to leave. I predict he'll stick around.



Samara - Samara will return to her Justicar ways, though her comment that she'll come if Shepherd calls suggests we'll see her show up to lend a hand at some point if she's alive.



Thane - He'll either be dead from the suicide mission or from his illness.



Mordin - I've heard others suggest he'll hang around in an NPC support role, and that seems likely to me. He's drawn to interesting challenges, and i'm sure he realizes that the most interesting and challenging things tend to happen to Shepherd. If he died in the suicide mission, he'll be replaced with a new scientist NPC.



Legion - Since the Geth have no individuality, they are all technically Legion. The only difference will be whether they have memories of the final battle (depending on whether Legion survived to upload his memories or not).



Tali - Tali better stick around! Though I see her potentially taking on an NPC role. She may be compelled to return to her people to deal with the situation with the Geth and the possibility of war, with maybe a hot make out scene here or there when you go visit her, if you romanced her. I also see her potentially in an NPC role taking on duties as ships engineer (and maybe suffering a constant cold from regular hot make outs with Shepherd). Either way there better be hot make outs.



Jack - Not sure about her. We may find her causing trouble on Omega if she lived through the suicide mission. She seemed to like it there. I sided with Miranda when they confronted each other, and never got Jack's trust back, so I never got to explore the late game dialogue options with her.

[Thalandor21]

Lots of strong opinions here. I'll give mine.



I'd like for most ME2 crew to return too, but since many of them might be dead, it means bioware has to do to much more voice work and design to take account of all situations, and that's not really optimal for game development.



My feeling is that for ME3, Liara and Kaidan/Ash will return for sure. They will also pick a number of NPCs from ME2 who are likeky to have stayed, and Count_Zero_Interrupt (see above) did good assessment of the likelyhood for each NPC to stay. But hear me out, there won't be more than 2 to 4 of these NPCs, because they gotta leave some room for NEW ones. And yes, there will be new ones, otherwise the same ppl who want all the old crew back will play ME3 and complain that there are no new faces and that's boring. People are hypocrites.

[adriano_c]

I still find this argument of "they can die" bizarre.

And?

They won't be in YOUR game, simple as.

They'll be in many others...remember the whole "YOUR choices will have drastic consequences" (for YOUR game).

A new crew in ME3 voids this game's raison d'être.

Too many people are looking at these games as simple one-offs, rather than as a whole trilogy with a continuing story (as Bioware has repeated ad nauseam). This effectively counters arguments such as "they didn't bring back your first team in the sequel" via THOSE stories being wrapped up in the third (i.e., bring those people back at an appropriate time).

Modifié par adriano_c, 04 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[vigna]

All of mine relate to squad members as I agree about army recruiting. In ME3 I see...







1. A Krogan...(Wrex, Grunt, or someone new)



2. An Asari...(Liara, Samara, or someone new)



3. A Quarian...( Tali or Kal Reegar...surely Tali)



4. A Salarian..(probably Mordin..maybe someone new..hold the line)



5. A Geth....(probably Legion)



6. An Alliance Earth Rep....(probably Ash/Kaidan...Anderson, maybe someone new)



7. An Ex/current-Cerberus Rep (Miranda or Jacob...possibly a new person)



8. A Turian....(Garrus probably....could be a new person)



9. A Shadowbroker Rep.....(probably a Volus, but could be any alien race that has been modeled)



10. A Rachni Queen possessed person....(anyone really)



11. A wildcard player.....(some newer race or a DLC, or a missing crewman)



12. Someone new entirely that is yet another Wildcard.







12 is more than enough...and I bet these guidelines are somewhat followed..think about it.

[samuraix87]

why would we need a new team seriously people they have an outcome for everyone to survive so they will all be back as your team it some died you sol in me3 like the say in a load screen things you in me2 have dire conseqeunces in me3 like if some or all your team survived its like watching star wars episode for with the original cast then episode 5-6 comes around and the whole cast is new for them

[Series5Ranger]

FriendofGarrus wrote...

Wildhide wrote...

With most long term stories spread over several chapters, novels, movies, games, whatever... you have characters come and go, and others stay the entire time. Because of the emphasis on the party, I find it unlikely the will remove the majority of the current party. Not many of them have valid reasons for leaving, on top of that.

It's far more likely that Liara and Virmire survivor will join the current squad sans a few people. Likely departures include Thane and Zaaed. That said, most multi-installment plots that have 1 central character also tend to have consistent sidecharacters that exist between the Hero and the several members that shift in and out. Garrus and Tali seem to be serving this role, and I'm glad, because I like both characters a lot. They're Gimli and Legolas to Shepard's Aragorn. Chewie and Leia to Han, etc etc.

I like to believe that Bioware was the writing talents to maintain a solid plot without ditching 50% of the backstory they've build up. ME3 is intended to be a climax, something to bring the first two games crashing together in a final bang. Removing the current squad from ME2 won't facilitate this in my mind, and they know how to put a decent story together.

So my opinion, I would like to think they'll keep a lot of the great characters they created, bring back the only 2 old ones left, and add a few more. Voila. Personally, I think doing otherwise might damage my opinion of the next game, no matter how good it turns out overall. But I have faith in Bioware to make it work, as they've created some of my favorite stories in video games.

I agree but based on the experience from ME1 it seems unlikely. As a poster before mentioned: everyone is mortal in this game. Garrus and Tali were protected in ME1 (same with Liara and the virmire survivor). I think Wrex is pretty indicative of how the survivors from the suivide mission will be treated. I hope not, but that is what I suspect.

ME3 is the Last game in the Series about Shepard and his crew. And since they aren't doing as much Game engine tweaking this time they can concentrate on Gameplay and Story elements. Will there be new Squaddies? Of Course. I still think they can incorporate a lot of the ME 1/2 Squaddies into 3 as Squadmates while leaving new Squaddies to recruit to fill some of the Holes depending on who survived the Suicide mission.. ME3 (I hope) will be the most unique experience of the 3 depending on the decisions you made in 1 & 2.

[NadanHotic]

damn!!! what about people that lost 3, 4, 5 or more squadmates in ME2?? they just continue with a reduced squad and a reduced expiriance?? NOT likely!!

bioware will have to cram new squad mmbers in ME3 just for that reason!!

[davetheboy]

NadanHotic wrote...

damn!!! what about people that lost 3, 4, 5 or more squadmates in ME2?? they just continue with a reduced squad and a reduced expiriance?? NOT likely!!
bioware will have to cram new squad mmbers in ME3 just for that reason!!

Exactly. People who screwed up their suicide missions probably are going to have reduced squad roster. After all there will be DIRE cosequences for the decisions you made in ME2. It would be totally ridiculous if performing poorly in suicide mission would have no consequences to your game.