339 réponses à ce sujet

[Tankfriend]

Personally I'd prefer a hybrid system like some people have mentioned in the thread before.
A continous cooldown as in ME1 and the ME2s clips as a safety/emergency system in case you overheat your weapon.
At least in my opinion there are several points that would make such a system feasible:
a) It fits scientifically (note that there's still some science in ME  ) because I doubt that near-completely isolating weapons and clips against heat dissipation is in any in-game weapon designers mind. For one, that would be an in-game economical disaster in terms of cost/efficiency ratio and for another, the clips in-game actually smoke and glow brightly when changed so they're obviously not isolated that much.
It fits lore-wise. The weapons in-game are designed with a very large amount of ammo so severely restricting that by making heat clips absolutely necessary to fire at all seems to be rather foolish from an in-game design perspective. On the other hand, having a method to quickly cool down a gun after overheating it would be a good idea to fix the only drawback of the original cooling system while not introducing a new drawback.
c) It fits from a gameplay perspective: Players would still be forced to decide when and for what to use up their important heat clips because they're becoming the decisive factor for battles where the high rate of fire provided by the clips far outweighs the unlimited ammo that the cooldown provides while still keeping the players in combat at all times because no weapon would suddenly become completely useless.

To make that system feasible gameplay-wise, you'd have to do three things:
a) Noticeably slow down the natural cooling process. ME1-like (even without any upgrades) would be far too fast. So slowing that down (1/2 perhaps?) would discourage players from just "waiting it out" all the time.
Make clips relatively scarce (they're probably still a rather mid- to high-tech product that won't be around just like that) and maybe increase the maximum amount of clips (they're quite small) you can carry so that you always have a good amount of clips in case you desperately need them anyway
c) Adjust the amount and strenght of enemies (as well as the availability of cover, perhaps) in such a way that you're gaining a noticeable advantage by using up clips (playing with a temptation for the player...  ) but you're never helpless without them.

Modifié par Tankfriend, 10 février 2010 - 12:20 .

[Cajeb]

I too would like a hybrid system or customizable loadouts. Let us pick our ammo packs as well as our guns. If I don't want 600 SMG clips but maybe 15 more sniper ones shouldn't that be an RP choice? This or still being somewhat functional with zero rounds/using clips to actually interrupt overheat would be a lot more fun for RP purposes.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

VeteranChild wrote...

BOOOO-HOOOO I can't make my gun shoot forever, oh woe is me, why must I replace my heat sinks.

It ain't "boo-hoo", it's "this doesn't make sense and breaks consistency with the first game."

[Bad Byte]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I dislike it immensely. Especially since I'm the only being in the galaxy operating with heat sink limitations. Neither my squadmates or enemies have to deal with it.

Same reason I don't like the change, should apply to all npc as well not just the player.

Modifié par Bad Byte, 10 février 2010 - 02:58 .

[Fhaileas]

Regarding "Thermal Clips", I've come to the conclusion that it's an inconsistent game mechanic with a consistent-yet-invisible lore mechanic wrapped around it.

The idea behind the first game was that ammo is basically unlimited, you just have "clips" that are a block of metal that the gun's computers shear off into appropriately-sized shards based on targeting data, making one clip give thousands of rounds and effectively unlimited ammo. The limiting factor for weapons was heat -- fire too many shots in succession and the gun overheats and requires a cool-down period.

Thermal clips are, lore wise, SECONDARY clips of disposable heat sinks, such that you still have the unlimited ammo of the metal block clips, but now you can fire until overheat, then eject the heat-sink and load up a new one and continue firing as if the weapon hadn't overheated. And game-wise, this is the case -- it is no longer possible to fire the weapon fast enough to overheat it and prevent firing for a period of time.

The problem is that Bioware treats thermal clips, game mechanics wise, as traditional ammo clips. When you're out of thermal clips, you can't shoot anymore. Lore-wise it should be that when you're out of thermal clips, you can keep firing, but now you have to worry about overheat. A proper game implementation would be thermal clips until you hit zero, then replacing the ammo indicator with the heat gauge from ME1 until you get more thermal clips.

Of course, it doesn't help that they also screw up the treatment of these "universal" thermal clips by having your weapons keep independent supplies of them. If the clips are universal, you should be able to expend every thermal in your inventory on one weapon.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 10 février 2010 - 03:02 .

[Sharn01]

Fhaileas wrote...

Regarding "Thermal Clips", I've come to the conclusion that it's an inconsistent game mechanic with a consistent-yet-invisible lore mechanic wrapped around it.

The idea behind the first game was that ammo is basically unlimited, you just have "clips" that are a block of metal that the gun's computers shear off into appropriately-sized shards based on targeting data, making one clip give thousands of rounds and effectively unlimited ammo. The limiting factor for weapons was heat -- fire too many shots in succession and the gun overheats and requires a cool-down period.

Thermal clips are, lore wise, SECONDARY clips of disposable heat sinks, such that you still have the unlimited ammo of the metal block clips, but now you can fire until overheat, then eject the heat-sink and load up a new one and continue firing as if the weapon hadn't overheated. And game-wise, this is the case -- it is no longer possible to fire the weapon fast enough to overheat it and prevent firing for a period of time.

The problem is that Bioware treats thermal clips, game mechanics wise, as traditional ammo clips. When you're out of thermal clips, you can't shoot anymore. Lore-wise it should be that when you're out of thermal clips, you can keep firing, but now you have to worry about overheat. A proper game implementation would be thermal clips until you hit zero, then replacing the ammo indicator with the heat gauge from ME1 until you get more thermal clips.

Of course, it doesn't help that they also screw up the treatment of these "universal" thermal clips by having your weapons keep independent supplies of them. If the clips are universal, you should be able to expend every thermal in your inventory on one weapon.

Thank's, I dont need to type it all out myself now.

[RiouHotaru]

Fhaileas wrote...

Regarding "Thermal Clips", I've come to the conclusion that it's an inconsistent game mechanic with a consistent-yet-invisible lore mechanic wrapped around it.

The idea behind the first game was that ammo is basically unlimited, you just have "clips" that are a block of metal that the gun's computers shear off into appropriately-sized shards based on targeting data, making one clip give thousands of rounds and effectively unlimited ammo. The limiting factor for weapons was heat -- fire too many shots in succession and the gun overheats and requires a cool-down period.

Thermal clips are, lore wise, SECONDARY clips of disposable heat sinks, such that you still have the unlimited ammo of the metal block clips, but now you can fire until overheat, then eject the heat-sink and load up a new one and continue firing as if the weapon hadn't overheated. And game-wise, this is the case -- it is no longer possible to fire the weapon fast enough to overheat it and prevent firing for a period of time.

The problem is that Bioware treats thermal clips, game mechanics wise, as traditional ammo clips. When you're out of thermal clips, you can't shoot anymore. Lore-wise it should be that when you're out of thermal clips, you can keep firing, but now you have to worry about overheat. A proper game implementation would be thermal clips until you hit zero, then replacing the ammo indicator with the heat gauge from ME1 until you get more thermal clips.

Of course, it doesn't help that they also screw up the treatment of these "universal" thermal clips by having your weapons keep independent supplies of them. If the clips are universal, you should be able to expend every thermal in your inventory on one weapon.

I'll explain it again.

In the beginning, all guns had a primary heatsink, which, after a gun was fired for a sustained period of time, would overheat, and you'd have to wait for the heat to be expelled (Not sure how this works, but without any schematics of the small arms of the times, I've got nothing to go on).  You are correct in that your actual ammo is unlimited.

Now, after discovering that the geth had found a way to develop a technology that allowed for an extended Rate Of Fire with their weapons, the Alliance decided to take advantage of this.  After all, a platoon of soldiers with a much longer sustained ROF beats out soldiers having to switch out or wait for their gun to cool down.  So, ALL weapons had their heat-sink technology replaced with the new thermal clip system.  Which works as explained in the next paragraph.  Note, as you stated, your actual ammunition is STILL unlimited.

Universality is ALSO explained in the manual, but I'll do it again.  Each
"Thermal Clip" goes into a gun.  This "Clip" contains a number of
heatsinks, which cool the gun down instantly, rather than waiting for
it to overheat.  After so many shots, the heat-sink is popped out and
replaced with a new one from the original "clip".  Once the entire
Thermal Clip is empty, you cannot shoot any more, as the mechanisms of
the gun prevent you from doing so.  The clips that enemies drop can be
used to put more heatsinks into your thermal clip.  The "universal"
nature of the Thermal clip system, is that any thermal clip can be used to refil the heatsinks on any
gun.  You're not putting in a new clip when you find them on the
battlefield, you're just refilling your original clip's store of
heatsinks.  Only if you let your gun totally run out, are you likely
replacing the entire thermal clip.

[HelterSkelter89]

cashogy wrote...

I cant understand the dislike for this new feature. In ME1, if youre rifle overheated it was about a 5 second wait until it could fire again. Now, it takes less than a second to slap in a new heat sink and your back firing at the enemy. And to those that say they run out, youre not paying attention to where they drop. Nearly every enemy drops one when they die, so it is really hard to run out of ammo. I actually find that this feature makes combat flow a lot better, but that might be just me

because canon was established explaining the system and it was a much better system. if your gun ever overheated you are a nub (besides one shot guns like some snipers). it was so simple to just watch the meter and make sure it didn't over heat. you could stay in cover as long as you needed and not worry about having to go find more clips. it's just amazing that bioware would stab real mass effect fans in the back and do this. we aren't stupid, we read the codex to see why the guns never needed ammo.

[Obadiah]

I don't know why they didn't go hybrid, it's kind of the no-brainer and it would fit in well with the lore. A lot of the stuff in ME2 seems geared towards attracting the FPS crowd over the RPG ones.

[knightnblu]

I don't so much mind having to manage my ammo on the battlefield, but if you are going to make me manage it then give me plenty of it to replace what I use. Forcing me to use it and then denying me access to additional ammo sucks. Particularly when I had unlimited use of it in ME1. With the set up that I had on my assualt rifle I rarely ever over heated, even with prolonged bursts of fire, but in ME2 that is not possible.



I understand that Bioware is shooting for realism, but they only got half of the equation right. Additionally, the horrible accuracy of the best battle rifle is another thing that needs to be addressed, as does the substantial muzzle rise. Even firing in bursts does not keep the muzzle level with the target for long, but that is another story.

[Arinosmirc]

Eh, they could have easily have just said "You need to actually pick up those blocks of metal that you shove into your guns now...", and it would have merely been a gameplay change, and no change to the lore, IMO. Techincally they did need to reload in ME1, you just never saw it.

[jgoemat]

cashogy wrote...

I cant understand the dislike for this new feature. In ME1, if youre rifle overheated it was about a 5 second wait until it could fire again. Now, it takes less than a second to slap in a new heat sink and your back firing at the enemy. And to those that say they run out, youre not paying attention to where they drop. Nearly every enemy drops one when they die, so it is really hard to run out of ammo. I actually find that this feature makes combat flow a lot better, but that might be just me

I just don't like it because it doesn't make any sense.  You don't appear to be ejecting the whole barrel, which would be what heats up when firing.  If there is some mechanic for moving all of the heat into a clip, it isn't explained.  If the clip heats up, why not have sinks to dissipate the heat still?  The clip would naturally cool to equilibrium with its surroundings.  If I fire one shot and the clip heats up a bit, it should be back to room temperature if i don't fire for ten minutes.  If I eject a clip, I should be able to come back later and use it again because it will be room temperature.

If you managed your fire in ME1, you wouldn't overheat and have that 5 second wait to fire again.  Why not just have better heat sinks that cut the time down?  Why not be able to re-use clips?  It seems artificial and contrived.  Why can't you re-use clips, so that you have the reload time but still infinite ammo?  I hate having to search for clips, which just so happen to be conveniently scattered around in quantities that I can use...

On the same note, how exactly do the ammo powers work?  How does Jack change the properties of my ammo with the squad power?  It makes sense to have the actual ammo or weapon provide the benefit, or MAYBE even yourself if you can somehow infuse your biotic powers while you shoot, but to your squad-mates?

[RiouHotaru]

...You guys keep asking about hybrid systems. You DO realize that the devs did in fact try out hybrid systems during development, and decided that the system as it stands was better?

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

RiouHotaru wrote...

...You guys keep asking about hybrid systems. You DO realize that the devs did in fact try out hybrid systems during development, and decided that the system as it stands was better?

We all make mistakes.

[Obadiah]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...You guys keep asking about hybrid systems. You DO realize that the devs did in fact try out hybrid systems during development, and decided that the system as it stands was better?

We all make mistakes.

I'm playing ME1 now, and I can't figure out what the problem was with the original mechanic. All I can say about it is, the old mechanic worked well, and the new mechanic doesn't suck.

[wako58]

I believe the new mechanic was brought in to attract those people who normally play FPS. All shooters require weapons to be loaded/reloaded. I believe it was solely added to increase their immersion and for no other reason than that.

That being said, I play FPS in addition to RPGs and the change doesn't bother me all that much. It does, however, make you pay more attention to resources during combat.

Modifié par wako58, 11 février 2010 - 12:28 .

[Shahadem]

My rifle never overheated in ME1, I could sit there firing it for hours at a time, And it had unlimited ammunition.

Now it only shoots a few short bursts instead of a constant stream, only gets 24 shots per clip and I can only carry a maximum of 120ish shots for the damned thing. Not to mention I can no longer manipulate the ammo and mods on the fly. And I tend to run out of ammo all the time on Insanity difficulty.

The explanation they gave didn't even make any sense. The Geth used the same type of weapons in ME1 as everyone else, you could pick up their rifles and notice this. So why would we go from a situation where we had rifles that could shoot an unlimited amount of bullets nonstop for over a half hour to rifles that only get at most 24 shots per clip and can only carry at most 120 shots in total? You'd have to be an idiot to downgrade your entire armory to these craptastic weapons.

I also find the game to actually be easier now that it is designed entirely around ducking behind cover, firing off a few SMG rounds, reducking from low shields and then firing a few more SMG rounds. Rinse and repeat until all enemies are dead. The difficulty setting doesn't matter, it's the same strategy and same gun every single time. I remember actually being able to use the shotgun and sniper rifle in ME1 as a primary weapon, now you have no choice but to use the SMG as your primary weapon simply because it carries the most ammo and does a good amount of damage per bullet. I would even argue that on Insanity the shotgun is virtually worthless.


Once they took away our ability to use Immunity and Biotic Barriers and put all abilities under the same global coodown, our mobility was reduced to zero.

I now have a hard time deciding whether I am playing ME or Uncharted. That is what really gets me, there are already a bazillion games out there which are all just like Uncharted, they should have left ME alone and allowed it to remain somewhat unique, now it is just like every other game out there.

Modifié par Shahadem, 11 février 2010 - 03:16 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

I like the thermal clips.

One of the most annoying things in ME1 was hearing that annoying beep as you waited for your weapon to cool down. In ME2 you just reload and are back in the action without even missing a beat. Sure, now your 'ammo' is somewhat limited but I've never run out. You find enough thermal clips laying around that it never becomes and issue.

[Cajeb]

Shahadem wrote...



I also find the game to actually be easier now that it is designed entirely around ducking behind cover, firing off a few SMG rounds, reducking from low shields and then firing a few more SMG rounds. Rinse and repeat until all enemies are dead. The difficulty setting doesn't matter, it's the same strategy and same gun every single time. I remember actually being able to use the shotgun and sniper rifle in ME1 as a primary weapon, now you have no choice but to use the SMG as your primary weapon simply because it carries the most ammo and does a good amount of damage per bullet. I would even argue that on Insanity the shotgun is virtually worthless.


Once they took away our ability to use Immunity and Biotic Barriers and put all abilities under the same global coodown, our mobility was reduced to zero.

These. ****ing these. SMG is THE playstyle. Ammo has not "encouraged" strategy

[HelterSkelter89]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

People either enjoy the mind-numbing chore that was considered 'gun play' in ME1, or are peeved about the apparent lore inconsistency.

Gameplay trumps lore, especially when it's something so trivial.

you're right gameplay does trump lore, but in this case adding a reload mechanic to the game is a step backwards. instead of just worrying about shooting and killing enemies you often find yourself looking around for ammo in the middle of a fire fight which takes away significantly from the action. me2's gun play is slightly better than me1's but that has nothing to do with the overheat system. the overheat system was genius. at the time i played a lot of shooters and it took a while to get used to but once i got used to overheat and cooldown i fell in love with it. but all the shooter fanboys cried and whined and bioware not wanting to lose sales put in regenerating health and an ammo system to please them. thankfully the story and the characters were enough to carry this game even though it failed when it comes to health or ammo.

overheat>ammo. always.

[Nightdragon8]

RiouHotaru wrote...

...You guys keep asking about hybrid systems. You DO realize that the devs did in fact try out hybrid systems during development, and decided that the system as it stands was better?

not "better" ballanced. for the kind of gameplay they wanted to bring out.

you all do know you can create the "hybrid system" with a few simple edits ,it just doesn't work if you completely run outta ammo. probably the real reason why they didn't implment it. because it was a bug they didn't want to spend time trying to fix it.

[BentOrgy]

I guess with all the zombies games and vampire flicks, necro-ing might sound like a cool idea....

[tjzsf]

Well, since the necroing is going on - Sparknotes!:
Lore: there's no practical in-verse reason to go back to reloading. You get to put a marginally higher number of rounds downrange in the same amount of time, but you trade that for an extra layer of logistics and the possibility of your fancy futuregun turning into a club once heat clips run out.
Gameplay: you found waiting for guns to cooldown mind-numbing? I find looking for heat clips after every battle mind-numbing. Don't say "it's not necessary", because it totally is if you use shotguns or sniper rifles that aren't the Viper. Thirteen to fifteen shots, if one out of five enemies drops a heat sink, then once the nineteenth enemy comes I have no more shots.

[Bananables]

scavenging for ammo after a wave of enemies really kills the adrenaline when im pumped up during a fight. the music gets me going sometimes and instead of sprinting to the next location to fight another wave of enemies, i have to look around for ammo like a headless chicken. having the mattock as my main weapon doesnt help either. but in the end i really dont mind. low ammo keeps you tactical because you have to switch weapons when you need to. i remember the spectre AR in ME1. you could literally tape the fire button and it wont overheat for a good 10 seconds. it got too easy.

[Reorte]

Oh well, may as well join in the recently-ish exhumed thread...

Gameplay-wise I prefer ME2's system. Limited ammo means trying to be careful with my shots and having to switch to less-than-ideal weapons, although I agree with the downside about scavenging for ammo.

In-universe it makes no sense whatsoever (because it's a step backwards) and therefore jars, although what can you do about the flaws in the first one (guns that you can keep firing for as long as you want)?

Squad ammo powers are daft.

Here's a question - would people be complaining about it if ME2 was a prequel?