339 réponses à ce sujet

[Railstay]

ChristEater wrote...

Railstay wrote...

Some people are angry about it cause of the lore break.  I do agree that a retcon would be cleaner.

Others for gameplay reasons, which I can't understand at all.  The ability to modify guns so they can fire infinitely without any risk of overheating made the first Mass Effect incredibly boring on higher difficulties.  To compensate you'd have to make enemies that take forever to kill, alternating between Shield Recover and Immunity...

No, you wouldn't. You would just have to make guns put out more eat with each shot and/or reduce the effectiveness of accessories that improve heat disappation. The ME1 system needed work, but I'm annoyed that Bioware did away with it completely instead of spending a bit of time tweaking it.

Then nothing has changed.  You can essentially use one gun to conquer the entire game -- very, very shallow gameplay.  If you can snipe your way through the entire game on any difficulty without having to worry about running out of ammo so to speak, then again the only way to increase difficulty would be to make all your enemies very very tough.  Is that what people really want?  A game you can beat using only one gun, spamming only one skill?  There are different types of enemies, different skills and different guns for a reason.  You don't see anyone here whining that Incinerate should affect shields and barriers as well as armor, but suddenly they get into a huffy double standard about guns.

Yes, your sniper rifle can't solve every single problem you face.  It's great at armor penetration, but not so much kinetic barriers.  Your SMG isn't so great on armor, but great against kinetic barriers.  So anyone with common sense would figure out, "Oh, I need to use all the skills at my disposal to succeed in this game."  You use the most efficient skill set and weapon for a situation, and lo and behold, ammo is never really a problem, because you spend it between all your guns relatively evenly.  That's called tactical decisions at work.

ME1 had none of that.  The system was inherently flawed.  The dev have tried making compromises and a hybrid system, but each time, the gameplay ended up falling flat just like the ME1.  It would be slow, and the player would never have to adapt, so if you never adapt, you become easily bored.

I don't like this feature primarily because it makes no sense to me. The codex says that this new system is a technological advancement, but it should be clear to everyone who's played through ME1 that this is not the case. Besides, what kind of heat sink doesn't actually disappate heat? If Shepard is wandering around a vacuum, sure, don't let the heat sinks cool down, but he spends a lot of time running around in places that have an atmosphere.

I thought it was pretty straight forward.  A gun using thermal clips, by simple physics, would be massively more powerful than a gun that doesn't.  If the energy a gun produces is so intense the heat needs to stored into a supercooled clip then ejected, then it means it's way more powerful than gun that deals with its heat internally.

Thermal clip guns would be like using a .50 cal on a tank.  Guns without thermal clips would be like using a bebe gun against a tank.  With a big leap in shield technology, it's obvious which gun is more efficient, and therefore the winner.  Or even without, I'll bet you any day of the week that if I could knock out all your shields and kill you in a single shot with a thermal clip gun, and you had to whittle away at me with 30 shots just to get me half down, the winner is again clear.

Also if heat build up is directed to one area that can be detached and discarded, you don't need internal heatsinks.

Also, the unlimited ammo/heat system in ME1 was, I thought, one of the coolest features. That's out the window now though. It seems incredibly unlikely that ME3 will switch back to the ME1 heat system, but I'm hoping for a hybrid at least.

Why?  Firing indefinitely promotes tactical behavior?  I don't think you appreciate just how hard it is to balance that, while still offering upgrades to manage the heat.  It all boils down to promoting a system where enemies are beefier rather than more dangerous.

And if there was some hybrid system, everyone would resort to ejecting clips anyway rather than waiting for a cooldown.  Or if they don't, then they can spend time killing things with infinite ammo, once again promoting enemies that take a long time to kill rather than making them more challenging to kill.

Modifié par Railstay, 04 février 2010 - 11:38 .

[Ultra Prism]

it wasnt like weapon was overheating and its beeping to eject ... its just ammo system of other games ... not enough developed

[Crysis I]

the new thermal system is much better then the old heatsink which when you got high enough with the right equipment became unlimted ammo fire.

[Myrmedus]

1. Just another ammo system.

2. Punishes speculative play (ie. long distance shots with pistols, even if you hit the target since the damage is reduced alot)

3. Physically makes no sense - everything cools down with time if it's not actively producing heat, end of story.

4. Makes certain weapons undesirable (shotgun has 15 rounds max - that's poor)

[Myrmedus]

Crysis I wrote...

the new thermal system is much better then the old heatsink which when you got high enough with the right equipment became unlimted ammo fire.

IMO the problem you describe here wasn't an issue with the old system itself but an issue with overpowered equipment.

[WillieStyle]

Myrmedus wrote...

2. Punishes speculative play (ie. long distance shots with pistols, even if you hit the target since the damage is reduced alot)

This is a feature not a bug.  Make your shots count. Don't try to use a Desert Eagle like an M40.

[dfjdejulio]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I think you are more worried about the realism of it than anything else.

I can promise you that that's not the whole thing.  The percentage of my combat time in ME2 that I'm frustrated is considerably higher than the percentage of ME1 combat time that I was frustrated, and the primary reason by a huge factor is thermal clips.  Period.  I don't like it from a realism standpoint, but I could suck it up if it made the combat more fun or less frustrating.  But for me it makes the combat less fun and more frustrating, it really and truly does.

(And yes, I played ME1 on the highest difficulty setting.  I've actually got 1200/1200 gamerscore on it, I've played all the way through it at least a dozen times now  And I've spent a more-than-healthy amount of time with ME2 already as well.  Check my gamercard for both games if you don't believe me.)

[Ulicus]

Daeion wrote...

Chimpeau wrote...

And it really isn't a break in the lore, hence "HEAT-sinks" and not "bullets".

It might as well be bullets, they just wantd to call it thermal clips, it still breaks lor though since games are considered canon and it's not in the first game or any of the books for that matter.

My issue was that Shepard knew what they were the minute he/she woke up when according to the codex they were introduced during his/her slumber.

Ideally, thermal clips would have just existed as a means to instantly cool your weapon down.  Make the penalty and cooldown for overheating way more severe than it was in ME1 (though not severe to the point of 'lore breaking' as it is currently) and Bob's your uncle.  Of course, I expect BioWare already thought of that and dismissed it as unfeasible for some reason... but you never know.

Still, while the lore geek in me does wish that "ammo" regenerated to some extent, at least on your final clip, my gamer side has very few qualms with the new combat system.  It's awesome.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 février 2010 - 12:52 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

WillieStyle wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

2. Punishes speculative play (ie. long distance shots with pistols, even if you hit the target since the damage is reduced alot)

This is a feature not a bug.  Make your shots count. Don't try to use a Desert Eagle like an M40.

I'm not privy to the weapon specifics of Mass Effect (or how the "bullets" are measured) but getting hit by a .50 AE at 100 yards will still hurt despite the huge drop in energy. I don't know if it is even comparable to compare firearms to the Mass Effect Weapons, given that we simply do not know how they work to make an effective comparison. I'm assuming that the "bullets" in ME lose velocity as soon as they leave the barrel...which is if there is even a barrel at all.

[fchopin]

cashogy wrote...

I cant understand the dislike for this new feature. In ME1, if youre rifle overheated it was about a 5 second wait until it could fire again.

Because it’s boring, all the enemies have unlimited ammo as well as team members and the pc has to go looking for ammo in the middle of a fight.
 
Did i say boring...Why can’t the pc carry some spare ammo?

[trigger2kill1]

It wouldn't have mattered as much if they would have kept the same mod system that was in place during ME1 I had my weapons set so that they would not over heat when used carefully. Remember mods like frictionless materials which gave better rates of fire, better accuracy, and kept the weapon from overheating? Sure you sacrificed a little punch you couldn't use inferno rounds but there was never a chance to run out during a insainity run!



But I suppose my biggest gripe with the new system is simply that you would think that they would have had this bug worked through in 173+ years of weapons development and testing.



Bottom line... close to game breaking, it does tend to take away from the vistas (oh ya... no mako = fewer vistas)

[TudorWolf]

Soldier on Insanity does not do well for limited ammo.



You get cut down in seconds, yet in a big firefight I often find the need to run into the open to find a heatsink out of necessity. Reason being that Soldiers can't do diddlysquat without ammo, short of an offensive bonus power or melee attacks, the latter of which is literal suicide and the former a limitation for some.



I don't mind the system, but when you start getting screwed over on the higher difficulties because enemies take so much to put down it starts to chafe.

[Hiero Glyph]

Curious, but if ME2 uses universal ammo how can my pistol only carry 24 rounds when my SMG can have over 400? Even the codex/tooltip states that the ammo is universal between non-heavy weapons.



I agree that the idea could work well but they did not implement it properly. Ideally the weapon should overheat after a specific number of rounds are fired. At that point the clip would need to be replaced, not discarded. Once the original clip cools it could then be used again.



If you are supporting a system with a finite number of rounds in each clip then it would be universal among all weapon types. This means that every single weapon that uses it would have the exact same number of shots, the only exception being the shotgun as it fires multiple rounds per shot.



As it stands now ME2 has neither and the search for ammo during/after each battle is boring. I would much rather have the 'change weapons' cache refill my ammo and get rid of the thermal clips entirely. Just space out the caches during each mission and only allow players to restock using them. It makes no sense to streamline the inventory system and then ask players to search around for ammo after the fight.

[MassEffect762]

I don't like it because...

A) my squad mates never run out of ammo
Picking up thermal clips is lame, easy as it is to do still lame.

I can live with it, the lack of armor inventory and squad armor still bugs the heck out of me.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

If you are supporting a system with a finite number of rounds in each clip then it would be universal among all weapon types. This means that every single weapon that uses it would have the exact same number of shots, the only exception being the shotgun as it fires multiple rounds per shot.

Actually, no I doubt that every weapon produces the same amount of heat per shot.  1 shot on a pistol, 1 on an assault rifle, and 1 on a sniper rifle all producing the same heat?  Like I said, unlikely.  That would imply the same expenditure of energy for each shot in each weapon which should make a pistol do instagib damage like a sniper rifle.  However, it's still backwards if that is the case.  The assault rifle can fire more shots before you need to eject the clip, but surely it's producing more heat than a lowly pistol, which means the pistol should have more shots per clip and not the AR.

[trigger2kill1]

Unfortunately our best arguements are worth less than a stick in the eye to the developers.



For example: The very definition of sanity is doing the same thing on more than one occasion and expecting different results.



Just being logical will not get this system changed. Though being logical and buying up large quantities of ea stock will.

[Hiero Glyph]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

If you are supporting a system with a finite number of rounds in each clip then it would be universal among all weapon types. This means that every single weapon that uses it would have the exact same number of shots, the only exception being the shotgun as it fires multiple rounds per shot.

Actually, no I doubt that every weapon produces the same amount of heat per shot.  1 shot on a pistol, 1 on an assault rifle, and 1 on a sniper rifle all producing the same heat?  Like I said, unlikely.  That would imply the same expenditure of energy for each shot in each weapon which should make a pistol do instagib damage like a sniper rifle.  However, it's still backwards if that is the case.  The assault rifle can fire more shots before you need to eject the clip, but surely it's producing more heat than a lowly pistol, which means the pistol should have more shots per clip and not the AR.

I understand what you are saying but my point was that a clip should not be limited to X number of rounds and then discarded as it contains more ammo once it has time to cool.  The number of rounds that can be fired before overheating is not important in this case as the clip contains a universal ammo type.

So how can an SMG have 40+ ammo per clip when a heavy pistol only has 6?  I understand that you will need to change the clip due to heating issues but you are not changing the clip because you ran out of ammo.  This is the twist on Bioware's choice as you should still have unlimited ammo that is simply restricted by the heat created from each type of weapon.  So as you said an assault rifle can fire more shots than say a sniper rifle before overheating but as they both use the same clip and ammo there is no reason for the AR to have an ammo pool of a few hundred projectiles while the sniper rifle has less than one hundred.  It just doesn't make any sense given the rules they have established.

The answer is that you can either have a heat dispersion system that require changing clips or a finite ammo system.  The way that ME2 handled this is by ignoring heat and just using ammo and clips and then saying that you change clips due to the heat alone.  This is not correct.  You should always have unlimited ammo and then swap out thermal clips once the weapon overheats.  The only limit would be the number of thermal clips that can be rotated while you wait for the overheated ones to cool.  There should also be a heat indicator instead of an ammo display as the restriction for continuous fire is heat not the amount of ammo remaining.

Anyway, Bioware got the entire thermal clip idea wrong despite being able to write their own rules for the system.  The thermal clip is beneficial for heat issues, not ammo.  Displaying the remaining ammo is pointless as if you have 20 rounds left in a sniper rifle and fire a single shot every 30 seconds you would not have any heat issues.  If you instead fired 2-3 shots quickly using the same weapon it would likely overheat and need to be replaced.  Again, the restriction for continuous fire is the amount of heat generated, not an arbitrary ammo count.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 05 février 2010 - 04:38 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

If you are supporting a system with a finite number of rounds in each clip then it would be universal among all weapon types. This means that every single weapon that uses it would have the exact same number of shots, the only exception being the shotgun as it fires multiple rounds per shot.

Actually, no I doubt that every weapon produces the same amount of heat per shot.  1 shot on a pistol, 1 on an assault rifle, and 1 on a sniper rifle all producing the same heat?  Like I said, unlikely.  That would imply the same expenditure of energy for each shot in each weapon which should make a pistol do instagib damage like a sniper rifle.  However, it's still backwards if that is the case.  The assault rifle can fire more shots before you need to eject the clip, but surely it's producing more heat than a lowly pistol, which means the pistol should have more shots per clip and not the AR.

I understand what you are saying but my point was that a clip should not be limited to X number of rounds and then discarded as it contains more ammo once it has time to cool.  The number of rounds that can be fired before overheating is not important in this case as the clip contains a universal ammo type.

So how can an SMG have 40+ ammo per clip when a heavy pistol only has 6?  I understand that you will need to change the clip due to heating issues but you are not changing the clip because you ran out of ammo.  This is the twist on Bioware's choice as you should still have unlimited ammo that is simply restricted by the heat created from each type of weapon.  So as you said an assault rifle can fire more shots than say a sniper rifle before overheating but as they both use the same clip and ammo there is no reason for the AR to have an ammo pool of a few hundred projectiles while the sniper rifle has less than one hundred.  It just doesn't make any sense given the rules they have established.

The answer is that you can either have a heat dispersion system that require changing clips or a finite ammo system.  The way that ME2 handled this is by ignoring heat and just using ammo and clips and then saying that you change clips due to the heat alone.  This is not correct.  You should always have unlimited ammo and then swap out thermal clips once the weapon overheats.  The only limit would be the number of thermal clips that can be rotated while you wait for the overheated ones to cool.  There should also be a heat indicator instead of an ammo display as the restriction for continuous fire is heat not the amount of ammo remaining.

Anyway, Bioware got the entire thermal clip idea wrong despite being able to write their own rules for the system.  The thermal clip is beneficial for heat issues, not ammo.  Displaying the remaining ammo is pointless as if you have 20 rounds left in a sniper rifle and fire a single shot every 30 seconds you would not have any heat issues.  If you instead fired 2-3 shots quickly using the same weapon it would likely overheat and need to be replaced.  Again, the restriction for continuous fire is the amount of heat generated, not an arbitrary ammo count.

Your question is solved by simply stating that some weapons create heat faster than others; meaning that their shot capacity per heat sink expenditure is smaller.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 05 février 2010 - 04:44 .

[Hiero Glyph]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Your question is solved by simply stating that some weapons create heate faster than others; meaning that their shot capacity per heat sink expenditure is smaller.

Again, heat issues not ammo limitations.  Once the 'hot' clip has cooled it should be able to be used again.  Why you need to constantly find new clips is beyond me as if you fire 10 shots over the course of 20 seconds the heat issues will be minimal versus firing 10 shots as quickly as possible.  In one case the clip will overheat while in the other it will not.  Why do I need to replace a clip if I only use the weapon every few minutes and no heat is allowed to build?  The system simply does not work within the defined parameters.

EDIT:  The only finite aspect is the number of clips you have to cycle through while waiting for the 'hot' ones to cool.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 05 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Your question is solved by simply stating that some weapons create heate faster than others; meaning that their shot capacity per heat sink expenditure is smaller.

Again, heat issues not ammo limitations.  Once the 'hot' clip has cooled it should be able to be used again.  Why you need to constantly find new clips is beyond me as if you fire 10 shots over the course of 20 seconds the heat issues will be minimal versus firing 10 shots as quickly as possible.  In one case the clip will overheat while in the other it will not.  Why do I need to replace a clip if I only use the weapon every few minutes and no heat is allowed to build?  The system simply does not work within the defined parameters.

Too hot to cool in a few minutes is the only way. "Real life" firearms don't cool down as quick as you are hoping ME ones do, and I imagine they require a LOT more energy than what 180 grains of smokeless powder generates. I didn't design the ME2 system, but I do indeed hate it.

[Jackal904]

The whole overheating thing from ME1 was lame. Just sitting there waiting for your gun to cooldown to start shooting again. With the new heatsink thing you can cool your gun down quickly and start shooting again. Plus it makes the shooting aspect feel more solid.

[ODST 3]

Pressing X is too HARRDD! I can't do it. Also, I can't shoot for **** so I waste most of my ammo on the clouds.

[Destructo-Bot]

Railstay wrote...

Then nothing has changed.  You can essentially use one gun to conquer the entire game -- very, very shallow gameplay.  If you can snipe your way through the entire game on any difficulty without having to worry about running out of ammo so to speak, then again the only way to increase difficulty would be to make all your enemies very very tough.

No, proper enemy AI would have the enemy rush your position as a group when it sees you using a slow fire one round weapon, thereby either forcing you to fall back (out of cover) or switch weapons.

Instead of smart AI, we get 10 bullets. Cop out.

And smart AI would stay in cover and retreat if you are using an Assault Rifle, forcing you to move into a kill zone in order to progress so they can get you in a crossfire. If they see one go down from as shotgun blast they'll stop advancing and start picking at you with pistols from range.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 05 février 2010 - 04:56 .

[Hiero Glyph]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Too hot to cool in a few minutes is the only way. "Real life" firearms don't cool down as quick as you are hoping ME ones do, and I imagine they require a LOT more energy than what 180 grains of smokeless powder generates. I didn't design the ME2 system, but I do indeed hate it.

That logic does not work either as the older weapons had unlimited ammo.  Are you telling me that the newer weapons are so much more powerful (read: generate way more heat) that they cannot cool quickly?  Also note that futuristic weapons are probably not made of metal but instead synthetics and alloys so heating is very different than firing a modern weapon.  Again, the system is simply flawed within the defined parameters.  I understand the need for new game mechanics and reloading due to heat restrictions is fine, but do not try and justify that finite amounts of ammo are a step forward; I'll take the older weapons with overheating mechanics and unlimited ammo every time.

EDIT:  The proper fix would be to have a clip count.  Once the clip is overheated it must be discarded.  Every weapon has a finite amount of heat that is generated per shot.  If the weapon does not have time to cool it will overheat and the clip must be replaced.  Having an ammo restriction of any kind does not fit into this logic at any point.  The only restrition would be the number of clips that you can carry at any given time.  In this manner you would fire a clip until it is overheated and then discard it and replace it with a new one, reducing your clip count by one.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 05 février 2010 - 04:59 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Too hot to cool in a few minutes is the only way. "Real life" firearms don't cool down as quick as you are hoping ME ones do, and I imagine they require a LOT more energy than what 180 grains of smokeless powder generates. I didn't design the ME2 system, but I do indeed hate it.

That logic does not work either as the older weapons had unlimited ammo.  Are you telling me that the newer weapons are so much more powerful (read: generate way more heat) that they cannot cool quickly?  Also note that futuristic weapons are probably not made of metal but instead synthetics and alloys so heating is very different than firing a modern weapon.  Again, the system is simply flawed within the defined parameters.  I understand the need for new game mechanics and reloading due to heat restrictions is fine, but do not try and justify that finite amounts of ammo are a step forward; I'll take the older weapons with overheating mechanics and unlimited ammo every time.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for a broken system. They might have to be much more powerful to make up for everyone and their mother wearing both armor and shields. Of course that's a cheap way out by Bioware and still gives us a broken system. As you already know, In ME 1 the customization options allowed for some big time heavy hitting weapons that would overheat quickly or ones that do less damage and fire more before said overheating. It's a crap compromise in ME 2.

ME 1 system + ME 2 removable heat sinks = Best

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 05 février 2010 - 04:58 .