339 réponses à ce sujet

[Rykimaruh]

Well, I'm glad they kinda resolved the problem in ME1. Was too easy once you acquired that one upgrade where your weapons never gets overheated....was too easy...

[SuperVaderMan]

My only problem with it is that my hand cannon runs out too quick whereas my smg almost never runs out, even though I use my smg almost exclusively in fights

[AMmayhem]

pozipoziamparo wrote...

Cos now it feels like EVERY OTHER DAMNED FPS in the market. You're just reloading, no matter how you look at it. ME1 system wasn't that great, but at least it was different.

Agreed.

[Nivilant]

I didn't mind it really, though it did lead to many a 'sad face' moment when I ran out of sniper rounds and couldn't do slow-mo headshot chains.



Actually, it wasn't too disruptive. If you go around spraying ammo like a psychopath you get problems, but otherwise it's fairly easy to keep the counter up.



I can see where people have issues though, but at least you can't break the system with it. No inf.ammo trick.

[Hiero Glyph]

Everyone but the player has unlimited ammo; that's not even close to balanced. A better idea is to allow the enemies to regenerate shields and recast barriers or fortification abilities just like the player. In this manner the enemies will need to be taken down strategically and stripped on their defenses every single time if they are allowed to remain in cover.



Infinite ammo is not the issue here as thermal clips compensate for heat! How do you prevent a weapon from overheating? That is the question that thermal clips should answer. Instead Bioware added ammo counts that are not even related to the issue.



There are many ways that Bioware could have used to properly deal with this issue. The first is to ignore thermal clip pickups and only allow the player to restock at 'change loadout' stations. The second is to actually use heat indicators, not ammo readouts, to determine how much heat is being produced before needing to reload. The third way is to explain how thermal clips store and retain heat so that the entire weapon does not overheat. Note that none of these actually include a finite ammo display.



By 'streamlining' this feature they have in fact made it so simple that it no longer relates to the Codex's explanation of why advanced weapons use thermal clips. They have addressed a heat issue with an ammo explanation. Regardless this is Bioware's game and they can do what they feel is needed, but they will be judged for their actions and this solution shows that they are far from perfect in resolving these issues.

[andysdead]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

Everyone but the player has unlimited ammo; that's not even close to balanced. A better idea is to allow the enemies to regenerate shields and recast barriers or fortification abilities just like the player. In this manner the enemies will need to be taken down strategically and stripped on their defenses every single time if they are allowed to remain in cover.

this is a system by which software developers make games more difficult by making the computer a cheating bastard.

http://tvtropes.org/...CheatingBastard

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Grumpy-Mcfart wrote...

I only dislike that my thermal clip doesn't cool on its own when I'm not fighting

This. This this this. I downloaded a PC mod which makes it cool down when not in use and I now greatly enjoy ME2's combat, while before it was kind of lackluster. 

[Shadeart]

It not about what we like: the fan and the ones who liked mass effect 1 prb have already bought it without paying attention to the clip, the others who were interested in FPS bought it because of this more FPS Style and, finally, people will buy it because (except for some bugs and glitches) Mass Effect 2 is freaking awesome!

[Railstay]

andysdead wrote...

Hiero Glyph wrote...

Everyone but the player has unlimited ammo; that's not even close to balanced. A better idea is to allow the enemies to regenerate shields and recast barriers or fortification abilities just like the player. In this manner the enemies will need to be taken down strategically and stripped on their defenses every single time if they are allowed to remain in cover.

this is a system by which software developers make games more difficult by making the computer a cheating bastard.

http://tvtropes.org/...CheatingBastard

Or maybe it's because you wouldn't trivialize every enemy in the game by being able to perform an unstoppable chain of slo-mo headshots.

[stillnotking]

Railstay wrote...
Or maybe it's because you wouldn't trivialize every enemy in the game by being able to perform an unstoppable chain of slo-mo headshots.

Pretty much.  Ammo is the only limiting factor on Soldiers and Infiltrators, otherwise they would be even more ridiculous than they already are.

[Urazz]

cashogy wrote...

I cant understand the dislike for this new feature. In ME1, if youre rifle overheated it was about a 5 second wait until it could fire again. Now, it takes less than a second to slap in a new heat sink and your back firing at the enemy. And to those that say they run out, youre not paying attention to where they drop. Nearly every enemy drops one when they die, so it is really hard to run out of ammo. I actually find that this feature makes combat flow a lot better, but that might be just me

It wouldn't be so bad if ammo dropped alot more and/or if the maximum ammo you could carry was like 50% more or double what it currently is on some guns.  Otherwise, it's fine in my opinion on the lower difficulties but not high enough on Hardcore or Insanity difficulty levels.

[KalosCast]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

Everyone but the player has unlimited ammo;

Welcome to every shooter for the past 30 years.

[Railstay]

Thezezeal wrote...

Railstay wrote...
Anyway, you are running away from the argument no one in the infinite ammo camp wants to address:  How would you adjust the difficulty for a combat system with no reload mechanic and no universal cooldown?  The game would become an exercise in patience again, where you held down your LMB on some krogan whose health is not going down at all, because he popped Immunity and other krogan buddies are coming in with the same defensive mechanics.  All because there is no cap on ammo, and you are able to fire out all your skills in succession.

Apologies if I misunderstand the point you're trying to make, but isn't the patience aspect the point?

In ME1, if you were using a standard weapon (so something that could overheat, with no FMs), you could not hold down fire indefinitely, but instead had to use cover of some sort between shots/cooldown if your weapon overheated. In ME2, the same effect applies-- it seems to me, at least, that the heatsinks just limit the amount of shots, rather than changing the tactical effect.

Personally, I'm not bothered either way-- infinite ammo or heightsink-- but I think Infinite Ammo + Enhanced Resistance to certain Ammo Types + Soldier build would be a good balance; not sure on other builds, however.

It's patience that is completely unnecessary.  Let me give you an example.

I played the first Mass Effect a lot, and once you start playing at the harder difficulties like Hardcore and Insanity, the flaws of unlimited ammo and unchained cooldowns start to really rear their heads.  As I mentioned before, games that are unbounded risk boring the player.  This is why people lost interest so quickly in Prototype.  It was simply too easy.  The player was way too powerful, so every single challenge was incredibly trivial.

Mass Effect was like this.  It is very easy to tweak your guns to never, ever overheat.  As a maxed out Infiltrator-Commando, I could keep my pistol from overheating even with double Scram Xs all thanks to the Marksman skill, and with so many tech upgrades it also meant that there would only be a 5 second delay between when Marksman ends and when I could pop it again.  Plus, all my tech skills are bound to different cooldowns, so I can have unlimited pistol fire AND spam my skills in succession to nuke a target.

This meant that enemies in Mass Effect on higher difficulties took really, really long to kill, because that is the only way you can possibly increase difficulty in that sort of system.  There is no other way.  It isn't harder to kill the enemies, and they aren't more of a danger to you because they do more damage, use their skills more aggressively and play smarter.  They just take a really, really long time to kill.

Example:  I see an organic enemy, at worst case a krogan, who become really, really common towards the end of the game, but really any organic enemy is pretty tough.  Typically it's a room full who will run away and recharge shields/cooldowns.  That enemy pops Immunity -- there is no way to prevent this or disable this, because if you were able to, it would make them trivial.  But Immunity doesn't mean the enemies are smarter or more dangerous.  It just means they become tanks.  So even if you disable them and both you and your entire team are pounding fire on them, they take a really, really long time to kill.  I don't have to play smarter, use my skills more effectively or coordinate more.  I just hold down my fire key for about 3 minutes straight waiting for the Immunity to run out.

That was not my idea of fun, and I'm glad it wasn't Bioware's idea of fun either.  Now I actually enjoy Insanity on ME2 because the enemies are genuinely more challenging, not walking tanks.  That's the benefit of a reload system and a system where all your skills are on universal cooldowns.  The forced pauses in battle means you HAVE to make tactical decisions on what skills to use and what guns to use, and the AI is difficult because they do more damage and they use their powers more aggressively, not because they take forever to kill.  The only reason I finished my Infiltrator on Insanity in the first Mass Effect was because I knew I'd get a lot of bonuses for importing my character over to ME2 if the game detected that I had finished the game on Insanity at level 60.

[360_Captain_MEL]

KalosCast wrote...

I just don't like that they removed overheating completely. I think it would have been better implemented if you could eject heatsinks to bypass the cooldown, but had a limited number of them. The fact that they turned it into bullet counting when the codex itself mentions that guns now essentially have unlimited ammo was just irritating.

Seconded. A hybridized system where you had overheat/heat sinks would be better. The Vindicator runs out of ammo constantly in drawn-out battles. There were several bosses I killed with my Carnifax. I think a Heat tracker like ME1 had, with the option to eject a clip would fix a lot of things. Make the clips as hard to find as Medi-Gel or Heavy Weapon ammo maybe. So it's in your best interest to avoid overheating your gun, but if you do there is a solution to this problem that doesn't involve waiting for several seconds. Alternatively, the suggestion that you just have unlimited clips also works for me. I imagine the clips you eject would cool off eventually. You could probably just cycle five or six.

[KainrycKarr]

Because I can rarely use my handcannon because of it's severe lack of ammo.

[Thezezeal]

Railstay wrote...
It's patience that is completely unnecessary.  Let me give you an example.

I played the first Mass Effect a lot, and once you start playing at the harder difficulties like Hardcore and Insanity, the flaws of unlimited ammo and unchained cooldowns start to really rear their heads.  As I mentioned before, games that are unbounded risk boring the player.  This is why people lost interest so quickly in Prototype.  It was simply too easy.  The player was way too powerful, so every single challenge was incredibly trivial.

Mass Effect was like this.  It is very easy to tweak your guns to never, ever overheat.  As a maxed out Infiltrator-Commando, I could keep my pistol from overheating even with double Scram Xs all thanks to the Marksman skill, and with so many tech upgrades it also meant that there would only be a 5 second delay between when Marksman ends and when I could pop it again.  Plus, all my tech skills are bound to different cooldowns, so I can have unlimited pistol fire AND spam my skills in succession to nuke a target.

This meant that enemies in Mass Effect on higher difficulties took really, really long to kill, because that is the only way you can possibly increase difficulty in that sort of system.  There is no other way.  It isn't harder to kill the enemies, and they aren't more of a danger to you because they do more damage, use their skills more aggressively and play smarter.  They just take a really, really long time to kill.

Example:  I see an organic enemy, at worst case a krogan, who become really, really common towards the end of the game, but really any organic enemy is pretty tough.  Typically it's a room full who will run away and recharge shields/cooldowns.  That enemy pops Immunity -- there is no way to prevent this or disable this, because if you were able to, it would make them trivial.  But Immunity doesn't mean the enemies are smarter or more dangerous.  It just means they become tanks.  So even if you disable them and both you and your entire team are pounding fire on them, they take a really, really long time to kill.  I don't have to play smarter, use my skills more effectively or coordinate more.  I just hold down my fire key for about 3 minutes straight waiting for the Immunity to run out.

That was not my idea of fun, and I'm glad it wasn't Bioware's idea of fun either.  Now I actually enjoy Insanity on ME2 because the enemies are genuinely more challenging, not walking tanks.  That's the benefit of a reload system and a system where all your skills are on universal cooldowns.  The forced pauses in battle means you HAVE to make tactical decisions on what skills to use and what guns to use, and the AI is difficult because they do more damage and they use their powers more aggressively, not because they take forever to kill.  The only reason I finished my Infiltrator on Insanity in the first Mass Effect was because I knew I'd get a lot of bonuses for importing my character over to ME2 if the game detected that I had finished the game on Insanity at level 60.

I see what you're saying, but that seems to me more like an error with how the difficulty scaling was made, rather than simply because of the unlimited ammo situation. With ME2, I would say that they have more reason to allow infinite ammo, since we already have a system wereby you "should" change Ammo types/et cetera. Obviously I can only speak based on a Soldier build right now, since I have not played the other Builds, so I apologise in advance that this will not be a perfect solution, but perhaps at least a base of some kind...

My suggestion for higher difficulties is:
1. Defence Types NEED a specific ammo type. For example, as it is most ammo types are "more" effective, but others still have an effect. Maybe make it so that only 1 Ammo type affects one defence type, and all types effect unarmoured/unshielded.

2. Keep the shared cool-down, since that seems pretty good (again, only played a Soldier, so don't know how good that is for other classes).

3. Have unlimited ammo, but either...
a. Have no ability to reduce the overheat. So use a ME1 style Upgrade system without things like FMs, keeping number of shots to a maximum of the Gun's default (but maybe make these higher-- or give the Player a "pay for double shot" option.
b. Have a mininum overheat of 1% for each shot, with an additional ammount of overheat added. So even if you reduce the additional overheat to zero, you would still only get 100 shots at a time.

Personally, I found Insanity in ME1 a bit of a mix-- I enjoy the challenge of not simply being able to run out and finish everything off, but agree all of them having Immunity was too much. Since we don't have that now, I don't think (not seen it, from what I recall), we should be OK on that front. As to the AI... *shrugs*

[Railstay]

Thezezeal wrote...

Railstay wrote...
It's patience that is completely unnecessary.  Let me give you an example.

I played the first Mass Effect a lot, and once you start playing at the harder difficulties like Hardcore and Insanity, the flaws of unlimited ammo and unchained cooldowns start to really rear their heads.  As I mentioned before, games that are unbounded risk boring the player.  This is why people lost interest so quickly in Prototype.  It was simply too easy.  The player was way too powerful, so every single challenge was incredibly trivial.

Mass Effect was like this.  It is very easy to tweak your guns to never, ever overheat.  As a maxed out Infiltrator-Commando, I could keep my pistol from overheating even with double Scram Xs all thanks to the Marksman skill, and with so many tech upgrades it also meant that there would only be a 5 second delay between when Marksman ends and when I could pop it again.  Plus, all my tech skills are bound to different cooldowns, so I can have unlimited pistol fire AND spam my skills in succession to nuke a target.

This meant that enemies in Mass Effect on higher difficulties took really, really long to kill, because that is the only way you can possibly increase difficulty in that sort of system.  There is no other way.  It isn't harder to kill the enemies, and they aren't more of a danger to you because they do more damage, use their skills more aggressively and play smarter.  They just take a really, really long time to kill.

Example:  I see an organic enemy, at worst case a krogan, who become really, really common towards the end of the game, but really any organic enemy is pretty tough.  Typically it's a room full who will run away and recharge shields/cooldowns.  That enemy pops Immunity -- there is no way to prevent this or disable this, because if you were able to, it would make them trivial.  But Immunity doesn't mean the enemies are smarter or more dangerous.  It just means they become tanks.  So even if you disable them and both you and your entire team are pounding fire on them, they take a really, really long time to kill.  I don't have to play smarter, use my skills more effectively or coordinate more.  I just hold down my fire key for about 3 minutes straight waiting for the Immunity to run out.

That was not my idea of fun, and I'm glad it wasn't Bioware's idea of fun either.  Now I actually enjoy Insanity on ME2 because the enemies are genuinely more challenging, not walking tanks.  That's the benefit of a reload system and a system where all your skills are on universal cooldowns.  The forced pauses in battle means you HAVE to make tactical decisions on what skills to use and what guns to use, and the AI is difficult because they do more damage and they use their powers more aggressively, not because they take forever to kill.  The only reason I finished my Infiltrator on Insanity in the first Mass Effect was because I knew I'd get a lot of bonuses for importing my character over to ME2 if the game detected that I had finished the game on Insanity at level 60.

I see what you're saying, but that seems to me more like an error with how the difficulty scaling was made, rather than simply because of the unlimited ammo situation. With ME2, I would say that they have more reason to allow infinite ammo, since we already have a system wereby you "should" change Ammo types/et cetera. Obviously I can only speak based on a Soldier build right now, since I have not played the other Builds, so I apologise in advance that this will not be a perfect solution, but perhaps at least a base of some kind...

My suggestion for higher difficulties is:
1. Defence Types NEED a specific ammo type. For example, as it is most ammo types are "more" effective, but others still have an effect. Maybe make it so that only 1 Ammo type affects one defence type, and all types effect unarmoured/unshielded.

2. Keep the shared cool-down, since that seems pretty good (again, only played a Soldier, so don't know how good that is for other classes).

3. Have unlimited ammo, but either...
a. Have no ability to reduce the overheat. So use a ME1 style Upgrade system without things like FMs, keeping number of shots to a maximum of the Gun's default (but maybe make these higher-- or give the Player a "pay for double shot" option.
b. Have a mininum overheat of 1% for each shot, with an additional ammount of overheat added. So even if you reduce the additional overheat to zero, you would still only get 100 shots at a time.

Personally, I found Insanity in ME1 a bit of a mix-- I enjoy the challenge of not simply being able to run out and finish everything off, but agree all of them having Immunity was too much. Since we don't have that now, I don't think (not seen it, from what I recall), we should be OK on that front. As to the AI... *shrugs*

But having so much disposable ammo means, again, the enemies become trivialized.  It means I can spam the sniper rifle throughout the entire game, so using the rifle is not a tactical decision anymore.

When you can use one gun to beat the entire game, that's a sign of flawed game design.  Even if the enemies on Insanity in that system did 999999999999 damage, what would be the point?  If you can slo mo headshot through the entire game, it's pointless.  You have to make them tanks again.

[hankscorpio21]

I think a combination of passive heat sink along with the thermal clips if you get into a pinch would make the most sense. Also, popping a clip early should force you to "lose" that ammo.

Modifié par hankscorpio21, 09 février 2010 - 04:03 .

[Kuari999]

My only complain is the fact that you didn't have a reusable heatsink as backup... because seriously, why wouldn't you from a lore perspective? You can only hold so many clips, why not have one of those clips be the old heatsinks so you don't have to worry about completely running out of ammo?

[SmokePants]

It's a simple fact that players take the easy route over the fun route 99% of the time. BAD combat design is allowing the player to be lazy and fall into a robotic rut. Good combat design is encouraging the player to live in each moment. That's what ammo restrictions do and that's what thermal cooldown didn't do.

Video games are a copy-cat medium. In the years since ME1, has anyone else copied that system? No. Instead, Bioware looked around and copied the system that everyone else was copying. Because it just works better. Any person that even partially understands good game design can see it. It's just too bad that the vocal minority of players don't have the first clue. You cry because Daddy is being mean and won't let you have ice cream for dinner anymore.

[Abirn]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

People either enjoy the mind-numbing chore that was considered 'gun play' in ME1, or are peeved about the apparent lore inconsistency.

Gameplay trumps lore, especially when it's something so trivial.

The only time Gameplay should trump lore is in a first person shooter.

For RPG's   Lore>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gameplay.

[Destructo-Bot]

Railstay wrote...

But having so much disposable ammo means, again, the enemies become trivialized.  It means I can spam the sniper rifle throughout the entire game, so using the rifle is not a tactical decision anymore.

When you can use one gun to beat the entire game, that's a sign of flawed game design.  Even if the enemies on Insanity in that system did 999999999999 damage, what would be the point?  If you can slo mo headshot through the entire game, it's pointless.  You have to make them tanks again.

No, that is a sign of poor enemy AI. When the game sees that you are hanging back with the sniper rifle, it will either have your enemies hide in cover, forcing you to flush them out somehow to advance (they have ALL day, you do not), or have them charge you as a group, forcing you to retreat from the safety of cover or switch to a spray n pray weapon.

When it notices that you are favoring the shotgun it will have the enemies keep their distance and pelt you with AR and Pistol shots.

Intelligent enemy AI is what should make you switch weapons, not lack of ammo.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 09 février 2010 - 04:37 .

[Schneidend]

Why don't people like thermal clips? Well, the geth came up with them.



Who wants to use technology some dirty synthetics thought up? Damn toasters and their math.