87 réponses à ce sujet

[uv23]

I did it! I went back to hereitc station and killed the geth, instead of gaming the morality system. Its what any proper soldier would have done, just to be sure. Then on the final mission I brought Jack (still pissed and disloyal) with me for the first mission and sent her with the others for the second, Garrus leading, taking Miranda with me. This is how I would have played it anyway. And lo and behold, everyone survived! Full squad, full crew, hurrah!

Oh, and good point about the death mask. I completely forgot about it. But being realistic, I wouldn't have worn that into the collector base anyway and you can't change before the negotiation scene.

Modifié par uv23, 04 février 2010 - 03:30 .

[cruc1al]

I don't want to be Satan-Hitler, nor do I want to be Jesus-Ghandi. I want to be Commander Shepard, and I want to be able to play him or her as I please without getting punished for not being at one extreme or the other.

I wonder why Hitler, Jesus and Gandhi were so influential then? (I'm dismissing Satan as a fictional character, though still influental). I think it's only realistic that if the path you take in ME2 is not decisive, you're less likely to influence people. The renegade/paragon meter is a sort of measure of character.

[crimsoncobra57]

This isn't entirely true. I played a neutral character and had everyone survive. All but 1 person loyal. I told Jack to back off, and sided with Miranda and didn't lose loyalty with Jack; and I think I know why.
When I went to talk with her after, she clearly said "you're lucky you just helped me out, Shepard".. Meaning, I had just done her loyalty mission. I think that was a variable.
Not to mention, I had everyone survive and Legion wasn't loyal. The fight between him and Tali, I obviously sided with Tali and I believe I lost his loyalty from that.. But I didn't use him for anything in the end, so he survived.

Modifié par crimsoncobra57, 04 février 2010 - 03:52 .

[ReplicantZero]

cruc1al wrote...

I don't want to be Satan-Hitler, nor do I want to be Jesus-Ghandi. I want to be Commander Shepard, and I want to be able to play him or her as I please without getting punished for not being at one extreme or the other.

I wonder why Hitler, Jesus and Gandhi were so influential then? (I'm dismissing Satan as a fictional character, though still influental). I think it's only realistic that if the path you take in ME2 is not decisive, you're less likely to influence people. The renegade/paragon meter is a sort of measure of character.

It's not as if Hitler, Jesus and Gandhi were the only influential figures in history. There are plenty of influential figures who don't fall into these extremes of good/evil  eg Churchill, Lenin, Marx,  Ataturk, Garibaldi, Washington - the list goes on.

[medlish]

Somehow I get the idea that it's much easier with an imported character.





Also, Hitler did not always choose Renegade options but also sometimes Paragon. Well that's probably why he died in the end, isn't it?

[flem1]

Pick the 100% bonus class talent evolution instead of the 75% one. Makes a big difference.

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

FredegarKadere wrote...

Have you trained your Operative/Agent (whatever) Skill to 4? It grants +75-100% to Paragon/Renegade. If not that may tip you to the point of convincing them both to back down. You can always respec afterwords if you didn't want the Skill to 4. You can also keep the disloyal one alive by having him/her escort the crew back to the Normandy during the finale. Won't help you with the Legion/Tali one, but with that one I think you can lie your way out of it.

As mentioned above...respec can get you out of this situation.  Just respec your class to LVL 4 with the convo bonus evolution before you go on the last loyalty mission (Jack's is pretty easy).  

Go look up what Washington did to a group of would be deserters at Valley Forge if you want to see how not every great leader is a saint....

Modifié par Br0th3rGr1mm, 04 février 2010 - 04:05 .

[Doug84]

If you're honestly very neutral, I think thats fair - after all, from the POV of the characters in game, you're sat on the field, not being consistant; not someone you'd 100% trust in a suciude mission.

[stillnotking]

uv23 wrote...
I was very careful in this second playthrough. I didnt' activate the EFF until all loyalty missions were complete, but them I got hit by the bombshell: Miranda and Jack's fight. My Paragon meter was about three quarters and renegade just under half, but neither was enough to negotiate the argument.

3/4 Paragon with 4 points in your class skill is more than enough to resolve the Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion arguments.  If it's not giving you the option with your score that high then your game is bugged.  I see this complaint all the time on the forums, but I have personally resolved the argument with only 3 bars of Paragon.

I think lacking the 4th point in the class skill is what causes most people to fail this check.

[mcramladu]

I don't understand why everyone treats paragon and renegade like they represent good and evil. Shepard is a good guy regardless of what you do. Renegade is just more about doing things your own way, putting the mission above others' feelings or local law. Paragon is about trying to be the stereotypical "hero" - making everyone else happy despite future consequences.



I almost always go the "hero" route on games (kotor, NWN), but I couldn't stand the **** factor of the Paragon route with a male Shepard. The renegade options allowed me to be a good guy while focusing on what my squad can do to stop the Collectors rather than worry about whether they're in a good mood.

[DarchAngelDavid]

This is what ME is about. The way you do things will always have some type of outcome and you may or may not know how it will hit you. It is what makes the world so exciting and what adds weight to your choices. I love this game because of it. It makes you feel. Because you feel you think things through. See now you are worried that because you made the decisions you did it might cost someone their life. How deep is that.

[Doug84]

mcramladu wrote...

I don't understand why everyone treats paragon and renegade like they represent good and evil. Shepard is a good guy regardless of what you do. Renegade is just more about doing things your own way, putting the mission above others' feelings or local law. Paragon is about trying to be the stereotypical "hero" - making everyone else happy despite future consequences.

I almost always go the "hero" route on games (kotor, NWN), but I couldn't stand the **** factor of the Paragon route with a male Shepard. The renegade options allowed me to be a good guy while focusing on what my squad can do to stop the Collectors rather than worry about whether they're in a good mood.

Erm, renegarde Shepard isn't a good guy really - he's not evil, but he's not good. I don't think forcing that bartender to drink his own poision was 'goody-goody'

That said, its not GOOD vs EVIL. Its more DIPLOMACY AND REASONING vs FORCE AND QUICK WIT.

[stillnotking]

In fact the ONLY Paragon/Renegade check in the game that is remotely difficult to pass (absent a dedicated effort to stay exactly 50/50 or less than 4 points in your class skill) is Morinth's third check, the one that allows you to kill Samara; and that's more of an easter egg than anything else. Most players probably never even know about it and it certainly isn't necessary.

On my Renegade playthrough I ended up with about a bar and a half of Paragon from "freebie" points, and I got most of the Paragon options.  The only ones I can remember not getting were the arguments, Morinth, and defending Tali.  But I was going Renegade on those anyway.

Modifié par stillnotking, 04 février 2010 - 04:22 .

[ReplicantZero]

stillnotking wrote...

In fact the ONLY Paragon/Renegade check in the game that is remotely difficult to pass (absent a dedicated effort to stay exactly 50/50 or less than 4 points in your class skill) is Morinth's third check, the one that allows you to kill Samara; and that's more of an easter egg than anything else. Most players probably never even know about it and it certainly isn't necessary.

Wierd, but am pretty sure I got the kill Samara option even though my Shepard's Renegade meter was only one bar at most (my Paragon meter was 3x this at the time). And did not get either the Paragon or Renegade options in the Miranda/Jack incident (both greyed out, with a much higher Paragon meter by then). Maybe previous conversations have an unmeasured effect?

[RampantBeaver]

I had no problem with persuading them both to back off infact if i remember correctly i had both the paragon and renegade options available to me. The suggestion that you need to play as either hitler or ghandi is complete fiction! I thinks its simply you havn't put enough class points into your core class line therefore you've lost out on the renegade/paragon bonuses. This roughly translates as your pursuasion skills, if you havn't upgraded them then your going to suffer. Whom i consider my main shepard is mainly a good cop but often when the mood requires it i make him act a jerk.

[Neuzhelin]

The system is fine, l2p.

[uv23]

stillnotking wrote...

uv23 wrote...
I was very careful in this second playthrough. I didnt' activate the EFF until all loyalty missions were complete, but them I got hit by the bombshell: Miranda and Jack's fight. My Paragon meter was about three quarters and renegade just under half, but neither was enough to negotiate the argument.

3/4 Paragon with 4 points in your class skill is more than enough to resolve the Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion arguments.  If it's not giving you the option with your score that high then your game is bugged.  I see this complaint all the time on the forums, but I have personally resolved the argument with only 3 bars of Paragon.

I think lacking the 4th point in the class skill is what causes most people to fail this check.

I was over 3/4 paragon with 4 points in my 100% p/r class skill and didn't get the option. But everything turned out okay regardless. I may build up enough points from side missions that I can still convince Jack to lighten up. The dialog options are still available when I talk to her.

[Bio Addict]

Speaking as a person who's canon Shep is also a "neutral" I have to say I really don't have a problem with the system in place.  So you can't win everyone's loyalty, that's just the character you've created.  Loyalty would mean a lot less if just any character build could achieve it. 

This thread reminds me a lot of the "Why is keeping the base renegade!?!" thread.  Even people who claim to be interested in RPing are more caught up with creating a "perfect playthrough" then actually staying true to character.

[Vanguard Alpha]

PARAGON87 wrote...

Think of this. Whole team loyal, did all loyalty missions, and Legion was the only one who died for me.

Then I look at Wikia to see what's wrong, and they say it's who I chose as fire team lead! (Chose Samara, seemed like good decision!).

You choose the team member whos been a loner with no leadership expeirence (unlike Miranda, Garrus or Jacob) and thought that was a good decision? lol

[Svest]

I suspect the requirements scale to your level which is why we are getting differences in what people experienced. People who, like me, did both Miranda and Jack's loyalty missions very early probably had an easier time talking them down. In my case I had both the charm and intimidate options available. I was being fairly neutral as well and, if I remember correctly, neither of my paragon/renegade bars were even half full yet.



In fact, in the first 2/3 or so of the game I always had all options available to me. It wasn't until the end where some started to be grayed out. That might also be because near the end I started leaning more towards paragon than renegade. So I always had the paragon option, but there were a few times where the renegade option was not available (most notably the two major ones with Tali). I ended with a full paragon bar and my renegade bar about 2/3 full.

[inversevideo]

I had paragon virtually maxed, there was less than 1/4 of the last section; so essentially very very close to 100% paragon, and the paragon convo choice was greyed out; I ended up losing Mirand's loyalty.



Conversely, I had less paragon points, when Tali and Legion went at it, and I was able to choose the paragon convo choice, and have them work out a compromise.



I'm on the 360, so I wonder if this is an issue specific to that platform?

[Skilled Seeker]

You don't need Miranda loyal for her to survive. Just don't put her in charge of the other squad, pick Garrus or Jacob instead and don't have her in your team during the final fight.  And I don't think neutral players are screwed I had one and was always able to pick the paragon response and most of the time the renegade too until that encounter since it happened just before the suicide mission.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 04 février 2010 - 06:06 .

[Looy]

Just don't use jack for anything, I had Miranda disloyal and she survived.

[Twilights Herald]

I think there's some specific factor in the relationships here that may also be at work. You may not be allowed to go for a compromise solution if you've been romancing one or both the ladies.

[Sunyavadin]

I'm surprised anyone had this problem. By the time they had the fight for me, I had about 5 notches on both paragon and renegade bars filled.