87 réponses à ce sujet

[DigitalLiquid I]

Farsidedown wrote...

DigitalLiquid I wrote...

Farsidedown wrote...

I think they should basically leave Mass Effect as is and bring back the single player version of KOTOR once they finish the mmo version, thus appeasing the sci-fi rpg fans and the rest of the people that love the redone ME2 all at the same time.

Have you played KOTOR recently?
The combat system in that game has dated, badly. Which means it would need to be redone...people would complain about the new combat system, thus the cycle continues.

Oh yeah, because a pure rpg that had no shooter elements WHATSOEVER is going to be turned into a third person shooter because it has to be "redone".  Of course the combat system has dated!  It came out 7 years ago!  But in many ways, it's extremely similar (and in one or two ways superior) to the Dragon Age combat system, and that's anything but dated!  Seriously, can you just use your f*cking brain for a second before you post another troll comment about how Bioware blows at reinventing titles?

Actually i was being sarcastic, which i understand is tough to get across on the internet. I was trying to say that there are always those who don't like change, even if it's for the best.
Nice to see your true colours though...

[iconocast]

i think wit the evolution of computers i cant seem much of a reasone for the gameplay not to develop wit it. im glad biowarde did the more shooter style wit me2, it wouldnt work wit dao, but wit me2 it works. just because its rpg dosent mean it has to be turnbased/isometric/etc. in fact the only reasone rpgs where like that is because of the pnp version and computer limitations, wit thos boundrys fadeing its biowares willingness to push it that impresses me.

Modifié par iconocast, 04 février 2010 - 09:21 .

[Selvec_Darkon]

I happen to agree with the OP. Mass Effect 1 was to much RPG, not enough shooter. Mass Effect 2 is to much Shooter, not enough RPG. Third times a charm ha Bioware?

[iconocast]

on another note, the lvls are to liniear is the only complaint

[biojekt]

 Can't I just have my cake and eat it too?  Bioware adds more RPG elements into the next game so that I have more control over health, armor, shields, biotic amps, omnitools, and abilities and noneRPG fans can just turn on the autolevel feature and they won't even have to bat an eye at the leveling system.  In fact the upgrade process could be automated like it already is in Mass Effect 2 where players can just purchase an upgrade and it automatically applies.

I can almost see the development process of Mass Effect 2.  First they decided to just throw out the inventory system since it was tedious and annoying although I think if it was better managed and organized and if there were less redundant items, I think people would have been less annoyed with it.  Then they started seeing the redundancy in their skills and abilities so they took those out too.  Finally they started adding new weapons since people complained their wasn't enough variety.  As a result you end up having Mass Effect 2 and to go that extra leap and have an RPG and a shooter would require some additional planning.  

Part of me thinks maybe Bioware should pull a Dragon Age and cut down the classes to three (soldier, adept, engineer) with multiple tree paths.  I'm sure they probably considered it at some point.

Modifié par biojekt, 04 février 2010 - 09:30 .

[Farsidedown]

DigitalLiquid I wrote...

Actually i was being sarcastic, which i understand is tough to get across on the internet. I was trying to say that there are always those who don't like change, even if it's for the best.
Nice to see your true colours though...

It was a poor attempt at sarcasm...but I concede.  Yes it is pretty obvious that a lot of people are going to find "fatal" flaws in all sequels, it just seems they dominate the forums here a lot more than anywhere else.

[DigitalLiquid I]

Farsidedown wrote...

It was a poor attempt at sarcasm...but I concede.  Yes it is pretty obvious that a lot of people are going to find "fatal" flaws in all sequels, it just seems they dominate the forums here a lot more than anywhere else.

I have yet to master sarcasm, i still need to upgrade with 3 more hero points.
Sadly the few people who dislike the game are far more vocal than those who love it. The people who like it are too busy actually playing it. It seems like no matter how good a game is, there are always those that will find fault anywhere they can.
ME2 is fantastic, sure it has some minor issues but all games do.

[IzzQuad]

Bioware has made it clear from the beginning (at least to me) that the Mass Effect series was designed to be a hybrid of genres. I believe people are mistaking Mass Effect 2 for a Shooter, when they need to look at the bigger picture. I myself thought this as well until about halfway through the game and it suddenly hit me.

This is not an RPG.
It is not a Shooter.
It is not an existing genre, though it borrows from many others.

The first game was an RPG with shooter elements. What they did for Mass Effect 2 was create an RPG levelling system, mixed with a turn-based RPGs squad capacities. The unknown mixed in there that people are missing is that this game incorporated a third/fourth genre: Adventure.
Yes, think about it. Ever played Zelda? Those games are a prime example of a fine adventure genre (RPGs and adventure games are my two favourite genres). Compare Zelda to Mass Effect 2 and you will be surprised by the similarities.
-You obtain items that are one-of-a-kind
-You must search stores and perform tasks or search for upgrades to said items.  The upgrades are limited in number and can be missed
-Most of said items are found in the middle of missions, similar to Zelda's dungeons
-You can never get two of the same item (ahem, except for dual clawshot in Twilight Princess)

Anyways. You get the idea. Mass Effect is assimilating as many successful elements from other genres as it can. As I said, ME2 now wields Dialogue from RPGs (most notably Bioware's other games and Bethesda's), the combat of a Shooter + abilities, the inventory and upgrade aspects (and stores, I suppose) of an Adventure game, and the Levelling and Squad systems of old-school RPGs.

Modifié par IzzQuad, 04 février 2010 - 09:39 .

[Looy]

1. Biotic and Tech abilities should have subtrees where players can invest points into specific attributes of the ability.  For example if I purchase Singularity I can access its subtree and invest points towards range, radius, damage, or duration.  Each and every ability like Pull, Throw, or Bash can have different attributes that players could manipulate.

I don't like that particular implementation, but modding your powers would be cool.

2. Weapons, Armor, and Shields could have similar subtrees and if you have trouble imagining how it would work, think Dead Space weapon and armor upgrade system.  Each weapon would have its own subtree where players could invest in damage, accuracy, range, ammo capacity, reload speed, or even special ammo or abilities.  The type of weapons that could be upgraded would depend on the type of class you are.  Weapon, armor, and shield upgrades would be dependant on upgrades you purchase from shops or find on the field. 

I'd rather have something like ME1s modding system, but restrict it to the Normandy and balance the mods a little better (I.E cannot apply same mod three times). Each mod would have a draw back to using it, so the most versatile weapon would not be modded at all. Same for armor. Mods would not be seperate items like in ME1 though, you unlock the technology for the mod and then apply it to any weapons you want.

3. Passive Abilities such as Biotic Amps and Omnitools could have their own tree of upgrades as well.  If you purchase a better biotic amp, it translates into a point that you can spent towards making your biotic abilities more powerful, lowering the recharge time, or boosting your run or jumping (might be fun to jump) speed using biotic powers.  Biotic Amps would have a tree that includes tech power, recharge time, and hacking terminals.

I like the idea of having different biotic amps that we can mod, but I'd rather use the modding system I mention above.

[DigitalLiquid I]

IzzQuad wrote...

Bioware has made it clear from the beginning (at least to me) that the Mass Effect series was designed to be a hybrid of genres. I believe people ar emistaking Mass Effect 2 for a Shooter, when they need to look at the bigger picture. I myself thought this as well until I was about halfway through and it suddenly hit me.

This is NOT an RPG.
It is not a Shooter.
It is not an existing genre, though it borrows from many others.

The first game was an RPG with shooter elements. What they did for Mass Effect 2 was create an RPG levelling system, mixed with a turn-based RPGs squad capacities. The unknown mixed in there that people are missing is that this game incorporated a third/fourth genre: Adventure.
Yes, think about it. Ever played Zelda? Those games are a prime example of a fine adventure genre (RPGs and adventure games are my too favourite genres). Campare Zelda to Mass Effect 2 and you will be surprised by the similarities.
-You obtain items that are one-of-a-kind and upgrades for said items, that have a set limit and must be found.
-Most of said items are found in the middle of missions, similar to Zelda's dungeons
-You can never get two of the same item (ahem, except for dual clawshot in Twilight Princess)

Anyways. You get the idea. Mass Effect is assimilating as many successful elements from other genres as it can. As I said, ME2 is now Dialogue from RPGs (most notably Bioware's other games and Bethesda's), the combat of a Shooter + abilities, the inventory and upgrade aspects (and stores, I suppose) of an Adventure game, and the Levelling and Squad systems of old-school RPGs.

I would agree on most points, although i find your Zelda comparison very strange. At no point during the game, afterwards or even now did ME2 being like Zelda ever seem plausible.

[Selvec_Darkon]

IzzQuad wrote...

Bioware has made it clear from the beginning (at least to me) that the Mass Effect series was designed to be a hybrid of genres. I believe people ar emistaking Mass Effect 2 for a Shooter, when they need to look at the bigger picture. I myself thought this as well until I was about halfway through and it suddenly hit me.

This is NOT an RPG.
It is not a Shooter.
It is not an existing genre, though it borrows from many others.

The first game was an RPG with shooter elements. What they did for Mass Effect 2 was create an RPG levelling system, mixed with a turn-based RPGs squad capacities. The unknown mixed in there that people are missing is that this game incorporated a third/fourth genre: Adventure.
Yes, think about it. Ever played Zelda? Those games are a prime example of a fine adventure genre (RPGs and adventure games are my too favourite genres). Campare Zelda to Mass Effect 2 and you will be surprised by the similarities.
-You obtain items that are one-of-a-kind and upgrades for said items, that have a set limit and must be found.
-Most of said items are found in the middle of missions, similar to Zelda's dungeons
-You can never get two of the same item (ahem, except for dual clawshot in Twilight Princess)

Anyways. You get the idea. Mass Effect is assimilating as many successful elements from other genres as it can. As I said, ME2 is now Dialogue from RPGs (most notably Bioware's other games and Bethesda's), the combat of a Shooter + abilities, the inventory and upgrade aspects (and stores, I suppose) of an Adventure game, and the Levelling and Squad systems of old-school RPGs.

It's not an RPG with shooter elements, people are mistaking for calling it a pure shooter, its not. It is however the opposite of ME1, a Shooter with RPG elements. The aim Bioware has said they are going for is a true Rpg/Shooter. So far they have been just off the mark with both titles.

[IzzQuad]

Oh no! you quoted all my horrendous grammar and spelling mistakes. LMAO

I'm telling you. Adventure got thrown into the mix. Even if it wasn't intentional, you will feel better about the whole thing if you try looking at it that way.  Bioware simply twisted the classic Adventure inventory design and item collection to be more personalized, in that nothing you find is actually necessary and can be missed.

Modifié par IzzQuad, 04 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[lewis1306]

biojekt wrote...

 Can't I just have my cake and eat it too?  Bioware adds more RPG elements into the next game so that I have more control over health, armor, shields, biotic amps, omnitools, and abilities and noneRPG fans can just turn on the autolevel feature and they won't even have to bat an eye at the leveling system.  In fact the upgrade process could be automated like it already is in Mass Effect 2 where players can just purchase an upgrade and it automatically applies.

I can almost see the development process of Mass Effect 2.  First they decided to just throw out the inventory system since it was tedious and annoying although I think if it was better managed and organized and if there were less redundant items, I think people would have been less annoyed with it.  Then they started seeing the redundancy in their skills and abilities so they took those out too.  Finally they started adding new weapons since people complained their wasn't enough variety.  As a result you end up having Mass Effect 2 and to go that extra leap and have an RPG and a shooter would require some additional planning.  

Part of me thinks maybe Bioware should pull a Dragon Age and cut down the classes to three (soldier, adept, engineer) with multiple tree paths.  I'm sure they probably considered it at some point.

many players would find the kind of micromangaing you are talking about pretty annoying. sure, hard core JRPG fans would love it but i don't think that is really the majority of the Mass Effect target audience.

I think that I think that ME2 hit the sweet spot when it comes to mixing RPG and Shooter aspects. I don't think that the goal with mass effect was to make it fit in the typical rpg mode.

its possible that the DEV's just looked at ME1 and said "what are we trying to do here and how can we make it go smoother" and the result is ME2.

I don't want to spend 10 minutes going through my inventory every half hour I want to grab my gun and get to saving the galaxy.

Mass Effect has always been more about story and relationships than about stats and tweaking.

I think that w

[lewis1306]

[quote]lewis1306 wrote...

[quote]biojekt wrote...

 Can't I just have my cake and eat it too?  Bioware adds more RPG elements into the next game so that I have more control over health, armor, shields, biotic amps, omnitools, and abilities and noneRPG fans can just turn on the autolevel feature and they won't even have to bat an eye at the leveling system.  In fact the upgrade process could be automated like it already is in Mass Effect 2 where players can just purchase an upgrade and it automatically applies.

I can almost see the development process of Mass Effect 2.  First they decided to just throw out the inventory system since it was tedious and annoying although I think if it was better managed and organized and if there were less redundant items, I think people would have been less annoyed with it.  Then they started seeing the redundancy in their skills and abilities so they took those out too.  Finally they started adding new weapons since people complained their wasn't enough variety.  As a result you end up having Mass Effect 2 and to go that extra leap and have an RPG and a shooter would require some additional planning.  

Part of me thinks maybe Bioware should pull a Dragon Age and cut down the classes to three (soldier, adept, engineer) with multiple tree paths.  I'm sure they probably considered it at some point.
[/quote]

many players would find the kind of micromangaing you are talking about pretty annoying. sure, hard core JRPG fans would love it but i don't think that is really the majority of the Mass Effect target audience.

I think that ME2 hit the sweet spot when it comes to mixing RPG and Shooter aspects. I don't think that the goal with mass effect was to make it fit in the typical rpg mode.

its possible that the DEV's just looked at ME1 and said "what are we trying to do here and how can we make it go smoother" and the result is ME2.

I don't want to spend 10 minutes going through my inventory every half hour I want to grab my gun and get to saving the galaxy.

Mass Effect has always been more about story and relationships than about stats and tweaking.

Modifié par lewis1306, 04 février 2010 - 09:44 .

[lewis1306]

sorry about the above double post...

Modifié par lewis1306, 04 février 2010 - 09:45 .

[Selvec_Darkon]

I was always under this assumption that what bioware wanted was a game that was a Shooter in combat, and an RPG out of combat.

[IzzQuad]

Uhhh...triple post? ^^

[lewis1306]

sorry about the triple post...

[IzzQuad]

hehe, no prob. Seriously, nobody agrees with the Zelda comparison? Imagine that all the items are in chests instead of scannable and on the floor and the unknown element that people are identifying incorrectly fits perfectly...

[lewis1306]

seriously,

I don't understand how people get so hung up on this kind of stuff. i don't care what category it fits in. if it doesn't fit into your definition of "RPG" then fine, don't call it an RPG. your problem should be with the labeling of the game and not with the game itself.

The general concensus is that ME2 is more fun than ME1.

if you that ME1 is more fun to play than ME2 then I digress, respect your opinion and agree to disagree.

If you think that ME2 is more fun yo play than ME1 (as most people do) then who cares about which gentre it fits most neatly into.

if you ask me, a role playing game should be about telling a story and actually playing a role, not micromanaging stats and inventories.

Modifié par lewis1306, 04 février 2010 - 10:02 .

[thepimpto]

lewis1306 wrote...

thepimpto wrote...

I don't care how they do it. But make ME3 play more like ME1. ME2 was like a completely different game than ME. Still a great game but in my opinion the original was a better game. The first was original the sequel was Halo set in the Mass Effect Universe.

why would you want ME3 to play more like ME1?

of course the first game was origional more origional,. ME2 is a sequel.

are you seriously saying that the gameplay in ME1 is in some way better than the game play in ME2?

which aspect are you refering to?

the combat?
the story developmet?
the converastions?
the inventory?

the only "RPG elements" from ME1 that were left out or redone in ME2 were the ones that were tedious, redundant or supurfluos.

Combat ME>ME2. Regenerative health does not work for this game. Give me Medi-gel and shield boost any day over this implementation.The shield/armor/health system for enemies ruins lore for the first game. Some tech and most biotic abilities are pretty useless in this game making ME2 pretty much a straight forward TPS. Shields didn't stop my biotics in the first game only my bullets.

Story Dev - Both games are pretty linear however ME2 seems more so. After certain events the player is forced to playing certain missions. Also, player choices seem lackluster in ME2. In ME1 save Zhu's Hope or destroy it, Kill or release the Rachni Queen, Kill or don't kill Wrex, Which team member do I sacrifice, do I save the salarians as well, let the concil die or save them, Udina, Anderson, or indiffernce. Choices like that seemed lacking in ME2. Side missions with story.

On conversations I do think ME2 outdid itself. The interupt feature is excellent. It is an improvement.

As for the inventory ME2 is better and worse. It cleans up the sloppy inventory of the first, but it seems severely limiting. Few weapons

[Bimawen]

Oh well



Hero Shepard goes back to handling a sniper rifle like a drunkard at the start of ME 3

[FlintlockJazz]

Allattar1 wrote...

Every so often I start to worry when gamers compare new games to what old games have done.
As the gaming industry has grown up and grown genres of games, these genres have obtained cookie cutter molds of what is expected from them.

So if you lable a game an RPG it gets stamped out of said mold and players expect, nay even demand that it must look feel smell like that mold.

Why cannot people play a game and appreciate it for what it is. I am enjoying ME2 and really like the fact that it isn't DA in space. DA is a great game that is a classic rpg, loved it, but ME2 is different and is fantastic for it.

I love that the shooter aspect is tighter and feels more like a fps. (Despite someones insinuation above that fps players are dumb and ooh smash)
If I could change something though it would be more armour and weapons choices, but not over the top. The ME1 choices where too much and just ended up as a fast way of making a ton of cash for me. I like the fact that when you acquire a weapon you can equip everyone.

Now if I could change anything about people, I would stop them trying to pigeonhole things by there names. Unfortunately that is just human nature and applies everywhere, for instance if we have a Steve Martin film, we know that he will fling out tired old jokes, act maniacally for a bit and end up marrying the girl, despite his age. Its what he does, he has pigeonholed himself.

However if we look at some of the actors who have dared to break away from there typecasting, like Jim Carey in Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. They can be amazingly different and great. Put them back in the cookie cutter mold, and bleh not so great.

This.  You sir have put words to things I have been trying articulate but failing to do so wonderfully, and have pretty much summed up what is wrong with gaming today.

[Marhkus]

Back to RPG roots > EASY!



Put a station (PC) in the Normandy where Shepard can play old RPGs when he's not out saving the universe. Mission accomplished.

[lewis1306]

thepimpto wrote...

lewis1306 wrote...

thepimpto wrote...

I don't care how they do it. But make ME3 play more like ME1. ME2 was like a completely different game than ME. Still a great game but in my opinion the original was a better game. The first was original the sequel was Halo set in the Mass Effect Universe.

why would you want ME3 to play more like ME1?

of course the first game was origional more origional,. ME2 is a sequel.

are you seriously saying that the gameplay in ME1 is in some way better than the game play in ME2?

which aspect are you refering to?

the combat?
the story developmet?
the converastions?
the inventory?

the only "RPG elements" from ME1 that were left out or redone in ME2 were the ones that were tedious, redundant or supurfluos.

Combat ME>ME2. Regenerative health does not work for this game. Give me Medi-gel and shield boost any day over this implementation.The shield/armor/health system for enemies ruins lore for the first game. Some tech and most biotic abilities are pretty useless in this game making ME2 pretty much a straight forward TPS. Shields didn't stop my biotics in the first game only my bullets.

Story Dev - Both games are pretty linear however ME2 seems more so. After certain events the player is forced to playing certain missions. Also, player choices seem lackluster in ME2. In ME1 save Zhu's Hope or destroy it, Kill or release the Rachni Queen, Kill or don't kill Wrex, Which team member do I sacrifice, do I save the salarians as well, let the concil die or save them, Udina, Anderson, or indiffernce. Choices like that seemed lacking in ME2. Side missions with story.

On conversations I do think ME2 outdid itself. The interupt feature is excellent. It is an improvement.

As for the inventory ME2 is better and worse. It cleans up the sloppy inventory of the first, but it seems severely limiting. Few weapons

By far the biggest complaint that any critic of ME1 had was that the combat needed improvement. Every critic now cites combat as ME2 biggest and most obvios improvement. if you ask 10 people, 9 of them will say that the combat in ME2 if a huge improvement over ME1. regenerative health fits perfectly with the cover system. ME1 lacked any sort of real cover system. the combat in ME1 was something to be tolerated or overlooked. in ME1 people kind of "put up with" the combat because the story and roleplaying was so good  you may not personally like the changes in combat, but you are definitely in the minority on that one.

I can't really discuss the story choices in ME2 without revealing spoilers but there are plenty of choices like that in ME2 (doppelganger, Legion, renounce your spector status, what you do with the reaper tech etc...) additionally, the characters and diologue are way better in ME2. The relationships are far more intimate and the characters are more "human" than they were in ME1. your choices matter just as much as they did in ME1 and ME2 plays out much more cinematically. comparing the ending of ME2 with the ending of ME1 and it's just no contest. The ending of ME2 was jaw dropping. in ME1 kaiden, wrex, and Ashley can die.... in ME2 everyone can die, even you.  additionally , your renegade,paragon status has much more of an effect on your gameplay than it did in ME1.

Modifié par lewis1306, 04 février 2010 - 10:29 .