51 réponses à ce sujet

[Proud Larry]

So, I get the feeling that the general concensus is that Flemeth possessed the dragon transformation because she is "old" enough to have met a lot of dragons and learned about their soul.

But I found it a little odd that Morrigan wanted a warden baby to capture the old god's soul so badly. Old gods are basically high dragons, what could she want with that child? It couldn't have been to save the warden's life, because she seems to offer the choice even if you're on bad terms with her, and I get the feeling that if she were acting normally it is "more of a Morrigan thing" to suggest we simply let Alistair deal the final blow.

On a related note, it is a bit disturbing how Morrigan ends up developing her personality to be a lot like her mother even if you prevent her possession by killing Flemeth's mortal form. It got me thinking, what if she wants the child in order to possess it? Not only extending her life as Flemeth did before her, but to gain the power of an old god?

What if that is how Flemeth gained her dragon transformation? By conceiving a child with one of the wardens during a past blight?

I know what you're thinking. "But all the past wardens exploded after dealing the final blow, she couldn't have gotten an old god's soul that way."

Walking Bomb.

Morrigan learns it, why wouldn't Flemeth know it?

Some of you must be thinking something else. "Morrigan isn't that heartless, my Warden changed her through kindness!"

Perhaps. But fear changes people too. Morrigan is afraid Flemeth will come for her even after the physical form was slain. Morrigan needs power to stop Flemeth and save herself. Old gods have power.

Modifié par Proud Larry, 04 février 2010 - 10:21 .

[Xetirox]

You presume a lot stating that Old Gods are High Dragons, which isn't true. They are, according to legend, gods that simply have taken the form of dragons. They're also all described as male, whereas High Dragons are sexually mature female dragons. Now, as to the true nature of the Archdemons, such as whether or not they really are corrupted Old Gods, is a matter of debate of which no true answer really exists at this point (as is whether or not the Old Gods were real or if their worship was just a glorified dragon cult), but the general consensus among most Thedosians is that the Old Gods are real, and they are what become Archdemons. And Morrigan and Flemeth seem to agree with that notion (or so that's what they would like us to think, tricky witches).

As for Morrigan's development despite your actions, she was still raised by Flemeth away from civilization and taught to abide by the crone's belief's of valuing power above all else. That's the way she was taught to think, that's what she believes...walking around with a potentially altruistic Warden and having her mother killed isn't going to change that so quickly (in fact, killing her mother for the sake of knowledge, power, and her own survival would only naturally conform to them).

Modifié par Xetirox, 04 février 2010 - 10:40 .

[Awoken Eyes]

Proud Larry wrote...

Some of you must be thinking something else. "Morrigan isn't that heartless, my Warden changed her through kindness!"

Perhaps. But fear changes people too. Morrigan is afraid Flemeth will come for her even after the physical form was slain. Morrigan needs power to stop Flemeth and save herself. Old gods have power.

Morrigan is going to use the Old God to overthrow the chantry and its lies and restore the order as it was before the chantry, thats what i believe en think what is going to happen in DA2.
I believe Avernus said something about the lies of the chantry aswell?

Faith is a powerfull tool if used in the right way.

Modifié par Awoken Eyes, 04 février 2010 - 10:56 .

[Proud Larry]

Old Gods were described as male? I never noticed anything like that. Their names sound pretty gender neutral too.

[Krucible]

Well spotted OP. I've always thought this to be a likely outcome, and am suprised more pople haven't.



Think about it - Morrigan basically dupes the PC into supplying her with the means to learn the ritual of posession, kill Flemeth - her main rival - and give her a child with potentially immense power.



And who is the ritual usually performed on? Why, a child of course...... For all we know it has to be performed on a child of the caster. It's how Flemeth has stayed alive all these years.



Not sure why most people don't realise this - Morrigan is out for herself the whole time, and tells you so on many different occasions.

[Inzhuna]

I've said this before on some other thread - I also thought that Morrigan wants to achieve immortality through the ritual.

[DJ0000]

But if you decide not to give her either grimoir she won't know the ritual and Flemeth will still be alive, presumably to claim Morrigan's body. I guess if you don't give the grimoir's to Morrigan the story could go that Flemeth took her body and then the child. Definately an interesting idea though.



Also, mabey Flemeth was once part of the Tevinter Imperium and learned the dragon form from close contact with the Old Gods themselves. I just wish you could actually talk to one of the magisters to get some answers.

[Awoken Eyes]

Inzhuna wrote...

I've said this before on some other thread - I also thought that Morrigan wants to achieve immortality through the ritual.

You still stand behind your comment when you don't give her the grimoirs or do the ritual?

She never sought immorality nor an unnatural lifespan like Flemeth, I remembered her saying something about that it was wrong and not right.

Morrigan doesn't lie, she withholds information and tells you this on the moments when she knows it is needed to tell you.

Modifié par Awoken Eyes, 04 février 2010 - 11:28 .

[Proud Larry]

Hmmm, good thought about Flemeth being from Tevinter.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Interestingly enough, you can never give her any of the grimoirs and you can try to dump her at first opportunity - she STILL shows up with the knowledge and offers the ritual.



She wants it. Badly. VERY badly.

She can hate your and AL's guts, she still comes to you. That is very telling.

[Awoken Eyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Interestingly enough, you can never give her any of the grimoirs and you can try to dump her at first opportunity - she STILL shows up with the knowledge and offers the ritual.

She wants it. Badly. VERY badly.
She can hate your and AL's guts, she still comes to you. That is very telling.

Awoken Eyes wrote...

Morrigan is going to use the Old God to overthrow the chantry and its lies and restore the order as it was
before the chantry, thats what i believe en think what is going to happen in DA2.
I believe Avernus said something about the lies of the chantry aswell?

Faith is a powerfull tool if used in the right way.

I still think this is what her agenda is and what Flemeth thought her.
Where Flemeth failed, Morrigan is thought to succeed.

When you do the ritual with Morrigan she also says that this was the reason why she was sent with you.

Modifié par Awoken Eyes, 04 février 2010 - 12:06 .

[blademaster7]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Interestingly enough, you can never give her any of the grimoirs and you can try to dump her at first opportunity - she STILL shows up with the knowledge and offers the ritual.

She wants it. Badly. VERY badly.
She can hate your and AL's guts, she still comes to you. That is very telling.

And it's not only that. She was supposed to return to Flemeth once the blight was ended but even if she doesn't discover her mothers plans(if you don't give her the grimoire) she never returns to the Hut. She obviously had her own agenda from the beggining. If you also get the ring from her, she says that it belonged to Flemeth and it was used as a tracking device, and she disabled the magic the moment you got out of the wilds.

[jsachun]

Afterall she now has the Flemeth's Grimoire. Why wouldn't the notion of immortality & eternal youth appeal to a bimbo like Morrigan.

Modifié par jsachun, 04 février 2010 - 12:13 .

[TheLion36]

I wish it would be possible to keep the Morrigan / Flemeth discussion in one spot. Keep having to type similar replies all over the place.
I'll try to keep this reply short, which might leave out some detail however.

First of all I don't think Morrigan is evil. I think she's trying very hard to be someone she's not... She tries to be as cold and practical as Flemeth, however throughout the story whether you romance her or befriend her you can tell that she's struggling with her personality and the things she has been taught.

I don't believe she wants to take over the child when it grows up. I don't even think she is able to, Flemeth is rather special in this regard because she has a demon inside her and Morrigan (as far as we know) has not. Another problem with this is her survival instinct, having a child with the soul of an old god is most likely going to attract darkspawn which doesn't make sense from a survival point of view if it can be done with a normal child. She also seems to be very in favor of freedom, for herself and for others. This is illustrated rather well in her response to Sten being in the cage. Taking over a child would go against that.

She does however clearly show during the dark ritual dialogue that this is very important to her, she even calls it "destiny" and the responses make it sound as something that will save her life.
My personal theory is that she needs the child to protect herself from Flemeth taking over her body, whether this is just done by having an old god by your side or whether she hopes that the old god can teach her more magic so she can prevent it is a mystery.

Of course the obvious downside of this theory is that if you don't give her the grimoire she still offers you the ritual. She however knows about the Flemeths many daughters story and could have figured it out by herself, but it could also have been such an important story decision that it is forced upon you regadless of whether you gave her the grimoires. (Anora also knows about the fact that the Grey Warden joining ritual is often fatal which she also shouldn't know about).

I must say though that the theory of her wanting to use the old god child to overthrow the Chantry and perhaps reinstate the old gods also makes sense to me and I would gladly help her do that!

Modifié par TheLion36, 04 février 2010 - 12:36 .

[jsachun]

TheLion36 wrote...

I wish it would be possible to keep the Morrigan / Flemeth discussion in one spot. Keep having to type similar replies all over the place.
I'll try to keep this reply short, which might leave out some detail however.

First of all I don't think Morrigan is evil. I think she's trying very hard to be someone she's not... She tries to be as cold and practical as Flemeth, however throughout the story whether you romance her or befriend her you can tell that she's struggling with her personality and the things she has been taught.

I don't believe she wants to take over the child when it grows up. I don't even think she is able to, Flemeth is rather special in this regard because she has a demon inside her and Morrigan (as far as we know) has not. Another problem with this is her survival instinct, having a child with the soul of an old god is most likely going to attract darkspawn which doesn't make sense from a survival point of view if it can be done with a normal child. She also seems to be very in favor of freedom, for herself and for others. This is illustrated rather well in her response to Sten being in the cage. Taking over a child would go against that.

She does however clearly show during the dark ritual dialogue that this is very important to her, she even calls it "destiny" and the responses make it sound as something that will save her life.
My personal theory is that she needs the child to protect herself from Flemeth taking over her body, whether this is just done by having an old god by your side or whether she hopes that the old god can teach her more magic so she can prevent it is a mystery.

Of course the obvious downside of this theory is that if you don't give her the grimoire she still offers you the ritual. She however knows about the Flemeths many daughters story and could have figured it out by herself, but it could also have been such an important story decision that it is forced upon you regadless of whether you gave her the grimoires. (Anora also knows about the fact that the Grey Warden joining ritual is often fatal which she also shouldn't know about).

I must say though that the theory of her wanting to use the old god child to overthrow the Chantry and perhaps reinstate the old gods also makes sense to me and I would gladly help her do that!

So are you assuming warden killed Flemeth for good?

[TheLion36]

No quite the opposite in fact... which is why I stated she needed the old god child for protection from Flemeth, I just don't think Morrigan will take over his/her body but will use him in some other (hopefully more friendly) way like learning magic from the child or perhaps old gods have the power to make her immune to Flemeths body-snatching.
This would explain why this ritual is highly important for her, its a matter of life and death.

Modifié par TheLion36, 04 février 2010 - 12:45 .

[jsachun]

Well I think P.Larry was implying that maybe Flemeth already possessed Morrigan. I think reading her Grimoire is the trigger or trap that leads to possesion, but I can't confirm.

[TheLion36]

jsachun wrote...
Well I think P.Larry was implying that maybe Flemeth already possessed Morrigan. I think reading her Grimoire is the trigger or trap that leads to possesion, but I can't confirm.

Read that theory before and even though it would make a good story twist (and it might actually calm down a lot of people who felt betrayed by Morrigan at the end), I think it is unlikely. The reason for this is that I think she doesn't really act much differently in the end and she still appears very much in love with you and some of her reactions are like battling personalities, especially when you mention you loved her... Someone mentioned a grey streak in her hair as a dead give away but I checked that scene several times and never noticed it. Someone also mentions she uses similar sentences that Flemeth uses, but she is her daughter afterall so it would be logically that she takes over language styles as well, I believe they both use "Tis" instead of "It is" a lot as well.

Another problem is of course that you might not have killed Flemeth, which of course doesn't have to limit her from taking over Morrigan, you also don't have to give her the grimoire or any grimoire for that matter. Of course my theory suffers from the same flaw.

Of course this doesn't disprove the possession theory as it is all based on theories and assumptions.

[jsachun]

TheLion36 wrote...

jsachun wrote...
Well I think P.Larry was implying that maybe Flemeth already possessed Morrigan. I think reading her Grimoire is the trigger or trap that leads to possesion, but I can't confirm.

Read that theory before and even though it would make a good story twist (and it might actually calm down a lot of people who felt betrayed by Morrigan at the end), I think it is unlikely. The reason for this is that I think she doesn't really act much differently in the end and she still appears very much in love with you and some of her reactions are like battling personalities, especially when you mention you loved her... Someone mentioned a grey streak in her hair as a dead give away but I checked that scene several times and never noticed it. Someone also mentions she uses similar sentences that Flemeth uses, but she is her daughter afterall so it would be logically that she takes over language styles as well, I believe they both use "Tis" instead of "It is" a lot as well.

Another problem is of course that you might not have killed Flemeth, which of course doesn't have to limit her from taking over Morrigan, you also don't have to give her the grimoire or any grimoire for that matter. Of course my theory suffers from the same flaw.

Of course this doesn't disprove the possession theory as it is all based on theories and assumptions.

Why would Flemeth offer you the book? She also stays & fights. Could she have not fled?

[TheLion36]

jsachun wrote...
Why would Flemeth offer you the book? She also stays & fights. Could she have not fled?

Perhaps there is nothing in the book that she doesn't already know by heart or there is nothing in there that she thinks Morrigan can use against her... She might not want to flee and might think she can take you on or she might consider you will hunt her down anyways... Considering only her physical form dies as Morrigan suggested, then she might not fear death...
I really don't know, Flemeth is an even bigger mystery than Morrigan. Morrigan at least provides you with answers in the dialog, Flemeth appears to only provide you with more questions.

[Inzhuna]

Awoken Eyes wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

I've said this before on some other thread - I also thought that Morrigan wants to achieve immortality through the ritual.

You still stand behind your comment when you don't give her the grimoirs or do the ritual?

She never sought immorality nor an unnatural lifespan like Flemeth, I remembered her saying something about that it was wrong and not right.

Morrigan doesn't lie, she withholds information and tells you this on the moments when she knows it is needed to tell you.

Yeah, no matter if you kill Flemeth, i think Morrigan strives for immortality. Listen to Morri's banter with Wynne about immortality, that's what originally gave me the idea. And her phrase 'SURVIVAL has meaning'.

[Awoken Eyes]

Inzhuna wrote...

Yeah, no matter if you kill Flemeth, i think Morrigan strives for immortality. Listen to Morri's banter with Wynne about immortality, that's what originally gave me the idea. And her phrase 'SURVIVAL has meaning'.

Taking possesion over the child is not an option nor will it ever happen as the taint in the child attracts the darkspawn.

So she has to find another child and prepare that child for possesion?
Not likely to happen, she then needs to raise an Old God child and another child while being chased down by darkspawn?

I know the whole possesion thing sounds logical but it is just not plausible.

Modifié par Awoken Eyes, 04 février 2010 - 01:36 .

[TheLion36]

Another thing I wonder about with the possession thing is this, considering the old gods are all male, then there's a chance that Morrigans child will be male as well... The story about Flemeth is about Flemeth's many daughters which might indicate the possession technique requires the victim to be female (or of the same sex as the possessor)...

This however is not based on any facts, just something that I've wondered about...

[LillithMabon]

If I'm not mistaken, it was Flemeth's plan all along that Morrigan seduce a Grey Warden to conceive the spirit of an old god untainted by the blight. That was the reason for her saving the Grey Wardens in the first place. It takes some conversation with Morrigan and some with Flemeth to find this out, but that was the impression I got after talking to them. Flemeth is still angry with man and his betrayal and that acts of man out of greed of power and pride. My opinion is that she intends to use the untainted old god as retribution in some way towards man.

[TheLion36]

LillithMabon wrote...
If I'm not mistaken, it was Flemeth's plan all along that Morrigan seduce a Grey Warden to conceive the spirit of an old god untainted by the blight. That was the reason for her saving the Grey Wardens in the first place. It takes some conversation with Morrigan and some with Flemeth to find this out, but that was the impression I got after talking to them. Flemeth is still angry with man and his betrayal and that acts of man out of greed of power and pride. My opinion is that she intends to use the untainted old god as retribution in some way towards man.

Interesting theory...  I remember from the stories Morrigan and Leliana told me about Flemeth that Flemeth was indeed angry with the man who she left her husband for (well after the husband being paid), because he sent her ex-husband to the front to fight and I remember Morrigan stating that Flemeths bitterness changed her memory...

The question that arises of course with this theory is why Morrigan is going along with the plan when Flemeth is "dead". One could of course wonder if she is going through with the original plan then or has taken another turn and is now protecting the child. Morrigan to me never seemed like she had any hatred of men.

I know it was Flemeths plan to conceive the child but I've never really been sure she told Morrigan what she had to do when she was sent with your party. I always had the feeling Morrigan was quite suprised she had to go along which makes me think she was told about the ritual but not to go out and do it. I have always felt like during the trip Morrigan realised that this was why her mother taught her the ritual and sent her with the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par TheLion36, 04 février 2010 - 06:10 .