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[GeorgeZip]

I like when you confront Flemeth and you tell her "Morrigan now knows how you extend your life". This is after she read the grimoire from the Mages Tower. Flemeth laughs and says "I know she does, but do you?" and says something about myths and stories. So it implies that what Morrigan learned might not be what she told you and wants Flemeth dead for some other reason.



The writers did an awesome job with those two.

[LillithMabon]

I am pretty sure it was Morrigan that told me it was her mothers plan all along sometime during the conversation or after she completes the ritual, cant recall. Of course in the beginning if the plan is supposed to be a secret, she would act surprised of her mother's suggestion of her following the grey wardens. Even if you kill Flemeth, Morrigan says she doubts her mother is really dead and actually sitting in wait for her.

[Grimauld]

TheLion36 wrote...

LillithMabon wrote...
If I'm not mistaken, it was Flemeth's plan all along that Morrigan seduce a Grey Warden to conceive the spirit of an old god untainted by the blight. That was the reason for her saving the Grey Wardens in the first place. It takes some conversation with Morrigan and some with Flemeth to find this out, but that was the impression I got after talking to them. Flemeth is still angry with man and his betrayal and that acts of man out of greed of power and pride. My opinion is that she intends to use the untainted old god as retribution in some way towards man.

Interesting theory...  I remember from the stories Morrigan and Leliana told me about Flemeth that Flemeth was indeed angry with the man who she left her husband for (well after the husband being paid), because he sent her ex-husband to the front to fight and I remember Morrigan stating that Flemeths bitterness changed her memory...

The question that arises of course with this theory is why Morrigan is going along with the plan when Flemeth is "dead". One could of course wonder if she is going through with the original plan then or has taken another turn and is now protecting the child. Morrigan to me never seemed like she had any hatred of men.

I know it was Flemeths plan to conceive the child but I've never really been sure she told Morrigan what she had to do when she was sent with your party. I always had the feeling Morrigan was quite suprised she had to go along which makes me think she was told about the ritual but not to go out and do it. I have always felt like during the trip Morrigan realised that this was why her mother taught her the ritual and sent her with the Grey Wardens.

Yes, Morrigan, in the process of talking the GW into the ritual, admits it was the reason Flemeth saved the GW in the first place. Its pretty clear that the ritual was Flemeth's endgame, which begs the question, with Flemeth dead, why would Morrigan still carry through? I agree with many of the earlier posts- I don't think Morrigan is pursuing any possession angle. She seems to demonstrate a real distaste for the idea on couple of occassions.
That still leaves several possibilities including:

1. Flemeth is not dead and Morrigan still fears her- It may be that Flemeth isn't dead. but if Morrigan truly feared her that much would she send the GW to openly slay her in her own name? The answer to that may lie in the Grimoire. Perhaps Morrigan learned that Flemeth was even more powerful than she imagined and realized she had better carry out the assignment regardless, with an idea of using the child as a bargaining chip or weapon against her mother when Flemeth eventually came calling. Might also explain why Morrigan didn't want the GW to follow her. Could be that Flemeth can track him too, maybe through the taint? I also find it interesting that the blight originated in the Flemeth's own backyard. Maybe she has a bigger link to the darkspawn than DAO has revealed thus far?

2. Another possibility is that Flemeth, living or dead, no longer plays into Morrigan's personal strategy. The old-god angle must give her some significant advantage to advance her personal agenda, whether it be power in its own right or in moving against the Chantry, or in some other cause which we don't know about yet.

I think her surprise at being sent with the party was genuine. But that could be because she expected to just show up on the eve of the final battle to offer the GWs a way out of a sure death for one of their own (as she in fact does if the story arc drives her away prematurely).

I did find it interesting that her "postcard" mentions a feeling of sadness and regret felt through the ring. A hint that whatever the plan, it didn't quite turn out the way she hoped? Maybe we'll get a chance to find out.

[SuperMedbh]

Grimauld wrote...
 Perhaps Morrigan learned that Flemeth was even more powerful than she imagined and realized she had better carry out the assignment regardless, with an idea of using the child as a bargaining chip or weapon against her mother when Flemeth eventually came calling.

Two comments from Morrigan here.  Paraphrasing somewhat, at one point she says that Flemeth is almost certainly not dead, and she'll have to study to be prepared for her.  The other point is when the GW quizzes her about the child, she says something to the effect of "The child will represent freedom.  Let us leave it at that."

So, yes, sounds like the child will somehow help Morrigan protect herself against a return of Flemeth.

[TheBlackBaron]

SuperMedbh wrote...

Grimauld wrote...
 Perhaps Morrigan learned that Flemeth was even more powerful than she imagined and realized she had better carry out the assignment regardless, with an idea of using the child as a bargaining chip or weapon against her mother when Flemeth eventually came calling.

Two comments from Morrigan here.  Paraphrasing somewhat, at one point she says that Flemeth is almost certainly not dead, and she'll have to study to be prepared for her.  The other point is when the GW quizzes her about the child, she says something to the effect of "The child will represent freedom.  Let us leave it at that."

So, yes, sounds like the child will somehow help Morrigan protect herself against a return of Flemeth.

I've tended to interpret that more as a sort of campaign against the Chantry. But hey, the kid's a god/dess. It could probably pull double-duty.

[Zugin]

Flemeth is basically a demon, demon that been out of the fade for a VERY long time but a demon. She is really an extremely powerful abomination and nothing more. Morrigan is not an abomination and I do not think she has any ability to posess another person. No magic of the type is ever mentioned.. even in context of Magister Lords, who were the most powerful mages to ever live.



What is possible perhaps is that Flemeth is not a real abomination but one of the Mages that stormed the Golden City? Old gods must be connected to that somehow.



My theory is that Flemeth wanted Morrigan to have the child so she could posess it, with Flemeth gone Morrigan motivations are unclear. Perhaps she is just interested in meeting an old god and learning from it? Perhaps she thinks she can herself become a god? Being mother of a reborn god does have some serious benefits!

[TheLion36]

Grimauld wrote...
I did find it interesting that her "postcard" mentions a feeling of sadness and regret felt through the ring. A hint that whatever the plan, it didn't quite turn out the way she hoped? Maybe we'll get a chance to find out.

That could be however since it also mentions she was thinking of while feeling those things I still hope this just hints at her still loving you and missing you, perhaps she felt sorry and regret over not taking you along... not sure could mean anything! 

The only thing I hate about that card is that you only get it if you talk to her during the final battle, which causes her approval rating to drop from Love to Friendly. I made 2 saves with my main character one where I did talk to her during that battle and one where I didn't, so I wonder if it will have any effect on the story line that her approval rating dropped (well changed you dont actually lose points) there... Also made me wonder whether the regret was breaking up with you since she went from Love to Friend which could ofc be a developer bug.

Modifié par TheLion36, 06 février 2010 - 08:45 .

[blademaster7]

Grimauld wrote...

I also find it interesting that the blight originated in the Flemeth's own backyard. Maybe she has a bigger link to the darkspawn than DAO has revealed thus far?

You don't say.

I remember Morrigan stating that the dark ritual existed even before the circle of magi was created. It's not just a ritual Flemeth cooked up the last moment. She must have been planning this for hundreds of years.

Wasn't it convienient for Flemeth the way things turned out? Think about it.

1.There was a darkspawn horde that "mysteriously" appeared in the wilds but they haven't reached Flemeth's hut anyhow.

2. She had the Grey Warden treaties. She knew that GW will come for them and warned them about the blight.

3. All the Grey Wardens of Ferelden were gathered at the same place along with new recruits.

4. She had a daughter who was perfectly ready to become her next host.


And there are other hints too. There is also this lunatic Rexel who escaped Ostagar. He is somewhere in Howe's dungeon and he'll talk to you about the darkspawn and a witch he saw while fleeing in the wilds. I don't remember the exact conversation but when he tries to recall what happened to him he talks about a swamp and then he freaks out.

"The witch, the witch!" or something along those lines in a very disturbed voice. Now of all the things that happened to him and all those darkspawn chasing him, why would he act so strangely if he saw an old woman? He wasn't quite right in the head but surely there is some reason to act that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if Flemeth was the one who set the whole blight up to be honest.

Modifié par blademaster7, 06 février 2010 - 09:47 .

[Inzhuna]

I didn't necessarily mean Morrigan would POSSESS the child. If the child has god-like powers, she could use him/her to gain power/prolong her lifespan/defend against Flemeth/etc.

Interesting point about Rexel. I also wondered what was that about. Does Morrigan make any comment about him if she's in the party at the moment?

[DJ0000]

Nope, no comment from Morrigan.



He's definately talking about Flemeth though. He mentions her swamp so it seems he may have gone to her hut.

[LillithMabon]

I obviously havent finished all the possible endings to the story yet so am getting a bit of new info here. But I do recall Morrigan saying she wanted to give birth to an old god untainted by the blight. so if Morrigan gives birth to an old god, she would not have to worry about being tracked by the darkspawn. So the way I see it so far is that this archdemon, (the fifth of seven dragons?) to be tainted means a very near extermination of the "old gods". In addition, the Dalish also have "old gods" but I dont know if these "old gods" are the same. It could be as simple as Flemeth and Morrigan both dont want to see the end of the "old gods" since their numbers are declining with each blight. They obviously do not agree with the chantrys idea of the Maker.

[errant_knight]

If Morrigan possessed the child, she'd be overwritting it's soul, so what would the point be? I think it's the soul she has a use for, not the body. Personally, I think she'll be using it against the Chantry, the Mage's Circle, or both.

[Sabriana]

Flemeth, according to Morrigan, takes over the body, and infuses her own soul. As Morrigan states "I will not be an empty sack, waiting to be filled." To me that means all of Flemeth will go into a new body. Nothing of Morrigan's self will be left.

[Maria13]

There is also the matter of politics.

When you are in Flemeth's hut after Ostagar and speak to Morrigan she says something along the lines of:  "I wouldn't have saved you two, I wd have saved the king."  But of course, Flemeth has just saved the future hero of Ferelden and the strongest candidate to become the King of Ferelden.  So in convincing these two no less to connive in the dark ritual not an end in itself?  The blackmail potential is huge... Undermine the chantry not only spiritually but politically?

[Kaiser Shepard]

What if the Old God child is simply Morrigan's way of providing a more attractive alternative for Flemeth? Or perhaps even a trap, as the Old God's/Archdemon's soul might cause Flemeth's to be destroyed.



I don't see Morrigan being interested in immortality, but just surviving through this sort of trickery sounds very much like her.

[Archereon]

I have an interesting theory on the Morrigan's child...It will be rather ordinary (in terms of the fact that it behaves and thinks of its self as (a) human) besides the fact that's it develops into a ridiculously powerful warrior/rogue/mage (the last makes the most sense). Eventually, through some circumstances, the once child ends up being recruited by the grey Wardens. Not knowing the implications of mixing its true essence with the darkspawn taint, he/she accepts. The joining succeeds for them, essentially turning them into a perfectly sane Archdemon in a human form.



Now it could go several ways from there...



If the child is cast as an antagonist, he/she could just decide it wants to rule the world, and that the darkspawn are the best means, and start a blight.



If the child is cast as a protagonist or the PC even, he/she could inadvertently start a blight. Completely clueless of why the darspawn are suddenly attacking, the new Warden runs about trying to find out what's going on and where the archdemon is before eventually being presented with the revelation that he/she is the Archdemon...

[Fishy]

LillithMabon wrote...

If I'm not mistaken, it was Flemeth's plan all along that Morrigan seduce a Grey Warden to conceive the spirit of an old god untainted by the blight. That was the reason for her saving the Grey Wardens in the first place. It takes some conversation with Morrigan and some with Flemeth to find this out, but that was the impression I got after talking to them. Flemeth is still angry with man and his betrayal and that acts of man out of greed of power and pride. My opinion is that she intends to use the untainted old god as retribution in some way towards man.

Old answer but i don't buy this theory.

Flemeth - i will lay Wrath Upon Humanity mouahahha(Alistair cynical laugh) and kill and destroy the world MOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHUEHAUEHAUEHAUEHUEMOUHAHAHAHAHH

sight

What she gain by doing this?The darspawn  they're not intelligent.Kinda like orc in Lord of the ring. They just want to destroy .. Because it's cool killing and destroying. /Shrug .. Well at least the orc in lotr can actually talk

But yet she save you .. The warden and Alistair .. You're against impossible odds .

You don't die because of plot armor.But you still accomplish the impossible and fight against one of the most powerful teryn of Ferelden + The blight ..

Than you go in Orzammaar .. Surprise.You have to go inside  deeproad and find some forgotten relic that hundred of dwarf failed to get.

Than you have the magi circle .. Where hundred of mage was killed. But the mighty hero kill everything and save the day.Than you have RedCliff.Where you save the village ... Than the dalish elves.. Where you kill hundred of werewolf  , revenant and dragon..Than you have the ashes ... and you're the first human to bypass the puzzles after centuries and even kill a High dragon .

But you're not dead !!!... Than you basicly enter into politic and you have to gain the favor of the noble.Kill a powerful Noble .. Escape from the most famous jail of Ferelden.Escape a trap by the Antivan Crow ..From mercenary that track you .. and basicly from the entire country.Everyone's against you.

Yet you kill the archdemon and save ferelden from the blight .. But ... Flemeth she saved you.
She saved you because she KNEW ... Destiny

Has Morrigan told you if you become a friend... She knew you was special the first time she saw you in the forest.That speak volume .. Because obviously i doubt Alistair or Jori would have accomplish this.

Modifié par Suprez30, 13 mars 2010 - 09:51 .

[LillithMabon]

Suprez30 wrote...

LillithMabon wrote...

If I'm not mistaken, it was Flemeth's plan all along that Morrigan seduce a Grey Warden to conceive the spirit of an old god untainted by the blight. That was the reason for her saving the Grey Wardens in the first place. It takes some conversation with Morrigan and some with Flemeth to find this out, but that was the impression I got after talking to them. Flemeth is still angry with man and his betrayal and that acts of man out of greed of power and pride. My opinion is that she intends to use the untainted old god as retribution in some way towards man.

Old answer but i don't buy this theory.

Flemeth - i will lay Wrath Upon Humanity mouahahha(Alistair cynical laugh) and kill and destroy the world MOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHUEHAUEHAUEHAUEHUEMOUHAHAHAHAHH

sight

What she gain by doing this?The darspawn  they're not intelligent.Kinda like orc in Lord of the ring. They just want to destroy .. Because it's cool killing and destroying. /Shrug .. Well at least the orc in lotr can actually talk

But yet she save you .. The warden and Alistair .. You're against impossible odds .

You don't die because of plot armor.But you still accomplish the impossible and fight against one of the most powerful teryn of Ferelden + The blight ..

Than you go in Orzammaar .. Surprise.You have to go inside  deeproad and find some forgotten relic that hundred of dwarf failed to get.

Than you have the magi circle .. Where hundred of mage was killed. But the mighty hero kill everything and save the day.Than you have RedCliff.Where you save the village ... Than the dalish elves.. Where you kill hundred of werewolf  , revenant and dragon..Than you have the ashes ... and you're the first human to bypass the puzzles after centuries and even kill a High dragon .

But you're not dead !!!... Than you basicly enter into politic and you have to gain the favor of the noble.Kill a powerful Noble .. Escape from the most famous jail of Ferelden.Escape a trap by the Antivan Crow ..From mercenary that track you .. and basicly from the entire country.Everyone's against you.

Yet you kill the archdemon and save ferelden from the blight .. But ... Flemeth she saved you.
She saved you because she KNEW ... Destiny

Has Morrigan told you if you become a friend... She knew you was special the first time she saw you in the forest.That speak volume .. Because obviously i doubt Alistair or Jori would have accomplish this.

But the discussion here was not why she saved the grey wardens but why she sent morrigan to give birth to the old god.

[Sarah1281]

Flemeth, according to Morrigan, takes over the body, and infuses her own soul. As Morrigan states "I will not be an empty sack, waiting to be filled." To me that means all of Flemeth will go into a new body. Nothing of Morrigan's self will be left.

I don't think Morrigan really knows what happens to the original soul but even if it does become part of Flemeth, it wouldn't be good enough for Morrigan. I can see Flemeth wanting to merge herself with the child and have an old god become part of her (if she thinks she could control it) but Morrigan couldn't do the same thing.

[Jabraham002]

1) About the reading the grimoir as a trap: That's a cool idea, and maybe the reading of it is one step and killing Flemeth is the final step, where Flemeth transfers her soul to the daughter (Morrigan in these case), that would be a good way to dispose of the old body.
But I don't think that's it. If the scene about the Dark Ritual that got cut and turned into a comic is true, that strongly contradicts that idea.

2) Why save the old god: It was Flemeth's idea to begin with (whatever that might be), we can all agree with that? So, one idea that came to me, that I haven't seen is: That they (Flemeth and/or Morrigan) want to gain the ancient knowledge it is bound to have. 
The Tevinter mages were the most powerful mages ever, right? And had knowledge of and access to (now) forbidden and forgotten magic. And who taught those mages? The old gods!
 
The old gods did teach the Tevinter mages how to use blood magic, and how to travel to the (once) golden city. Maybe they too want to learn that and other ancient, forgotten and forbidden magic.

[EccentricSage]

Morrigan hates the Chantry and Circle. She's been hunted by Templars all her life. And she DOES show compassion through her high approval of freeing Jowan, a blood mage. I think it's pretty likely that raising an old god incarnate would give her and other apostate mages the upper hand against the Chantry and their 'maker' who no longer looks upon them.



I personally hope the writers go this rout. I'd love to help her liberate the mages and tear down the Chantry in a future game. That would be epic. Likewise, I'm sure there are religious white knight types who'd like to play the same game and side with the Chantry.

[PatT2]

When Flemeth first tells Morrigan she must go with you, Morrigan says "but I'm not ready yet..." to which Flemeth says "you must be ready."



So obviously there is a shared plan.

[Imryss]

Great theories and speculations I think, I'll like to speculate a bit myself.

I did not like killing Flemeth; somehow it gave me an unpleasant feeling of having done the wrong thing, but I also thought it possible that Flemeth is not really dead.

I am not sure that I believe Flemeth entirely evil. She tells Morrigan that the GW need her (to be successful). When Morrigan sarcastically implores Flemeth that she would hate to return to a burned down hut, Flemeth replies that it be far more likely Morrigan would return to the Valley obliterated by the Blight. This indicates that Flemeth can be be hurt by Darkspawn and a Blight. Also, when Flemeth tells Morrigan that IT would mean the end of Humanity and everything.....even the end of herself, her tone becomes very soft towards Morrigan.
Flemeth also tells the companions that they are not required to do anything, least of all believe.  That implies free will;  demons and abominations don't exactly cherish free will of their underlings, do they?

So, I think for now, that Flemeth is not all powerful and not entirely evil, maybe not even evil at all. Even the Codex states that, although there are countless legends around Flemeth, ultimately she remains a mystery to all.

Maybe, Flemeth is The Maker..........or a figure very close to The Maker, and bringing about the birth of a child with the untainted soul of an old God, will be an act of re-establishing some balance in the world. After all, The Maker did turn away from the world a long time ago............

Speculation is such fun!

Modifié par Imryss, 15 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[Janni-in-VA]

Like a previous poster, I've also discussed Morrigan's probably motives at length in other threads. However, here's the gist of those posts.



First, the Tevinter worshipped gods who apparently were portrayed as dragons in their religious iconography. Dragon cults began after the First Blight when the Tevinter felt that the Old Gods had betrayed them and turned to the worship of actual dragons. The dragons who've led the Blights are probably ancient high dragons who've been in hibernation. Whether they are the actual Old Gods is still an iffy question, even though they are referred to in that fashion.



Morrigan learned the ritual from Flemeth. She tells you flat out that preserving the untainted soul of an Old God is a worthy goal in and of itself. If you think back to some of her other conversations, she makes it clear that there are things worth preserving simply because of what they are. In particular, she mentions magical traditions outside of Circle and Chantry. She would also have you spare Sten simply because he "...is a proud and powerful creature."



The Grimoires give Morrigan the information she needs to first understand Flemeth's plan for her and then to protect herself from it. Flemeth doesn't really need her Grimoire. When you've been around as long as she has, doesn't relying on a book seem a bit odd? I'm sure she could easily rewrite it, if she chooses. Flemeth also comments that she may simply watch Morrigan, as, "It will be interesting to see what she does with her freedom."



Any motive Morrigan may have beyond preserving the soul of an untainted old god for its own sake is pure speculation at this point. I don't believe we've seen the end of her or her child, but what their future roles may be is unclear at this point in time.

[RobUnreal]

Watch one of the companions in DA:2 be the Old God child.



He (if it's true that Old Gods were male and the essence of the the soul will also yield a male offspring) only knew of The Wilds, and hos mother. Learned a little about his father and joins the Wardens in DA:2 to fight a new Blight learn the truth.



Along the journey, he learns more of his father, the Grey Warden hero of the 5th Blight and proceeds to lay a beatdown on some darkspawn.



hahaha