104 réponses à ce sujet

[ToshiStation38]

Yeah. I probably won't be importing my first playthrough into ME 3, but I will definitely have a few people at least die for my ME 3 import file.

[Kenthen]

I agree that reloading during the last mission if you lose someone is kinda against the whole idea of a suicide mission and the finale of the game. I didn't lose anyone though so that's easy for me to say, I guess, still...it's a roleplaying game, if someone dies then you work with that. You don't go "nuh-huh!" and pout until you get the desired results. If you want everything to go the way you want it to, I suggest writing a book.



That's just my opinion though. People will and do disagree and that's fine, they bought the game too.

[Vicious]

It's less disney if Someone dies along the way.

That said, I really had no clue what I was doing the first time around as I [wisely] steered clear of the Internet. Through some lucky magic of being a 90% Paragon 80% Renegade heroic douchebag I managed to keep my party completely loyal despite their issues with each other. In the final area I put Tali to the vents, Miranda led the first team and Jacob led the second team, with Samara as my biotic. No one died, but I was freaked when Jacob took a hit, but he walked it off like a champ and I was proud.

I was quite pleased, but people dying probably makes the experience more cinematic than anything.


And yeah, this is the first time in a long time that I've felt like I 'cheated' by 'reloading.' even though it was something minor like switching Garrus out for Miranda to see the dialogue differences.

Modifié par Vicious, 04 février 2010 - 12:16 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

As others have said you definitly haven't failed, your creating the story as you see fit. My first playthrough due to some pre-knowledge I knew I was going to potentially lose at least 2 people because I didn't recruit Tali and sent Legion back to Cerberus. Now from an OOC PoV I still believed that there was a way to send one of the lesser techs through the vents and have them survive. I knew someone was definitly going to die on the ship and the only chance I had of affecting that was with my party selection for the cargo hold sequence. That being said it wasn't even really my decision, I took down what had been one of the best combinations for me throughout the game, that being Garrus and Jack, Garrus was also in there because he was my Shep's stalwart comrade since ME. Jack had proven very useful throughout this story. Thane died during the ship run and whilst part of me was sad, I let him go. Reason I was sad was because just before the relay run I decided to have my Shep talk to all her crew and during the conversation with him, he called Shep Siha and said he'd explain at a later time what it meant

Anyway thanks to Jack surviving, despite Miranda's boasting, Shep knew that Jack was the best biotic out of the two and so she did her job well, as did Miranda leading the 2nd team. Miranda, Jacob, Jack, Garrus, Grunt and Mordin all survived. My Shep didn't recruit Samara because she doesn't like Asari much and the way people talked of Samara put Shep well off the idea. That is how I roleplayed it anyway.

[Zandilar]

fogofeternity wrote...

Yeah, antithesis of roleplaying probably a better description. It depends if you play the game as if you are the author, and want to tell a particular tale, or if you are the character, and want to experience it as it plays out around you.

Yes, that's a better analogy... Not perfect, but better. (Yes, you can retcon in an RPG, I've done it as a DM and been in maybe one or two games where it's happened... But it's definitely not something you want to happen ever time.)

On the other hand, the save function is there for a reason. If you're arguing against using saves to get the ending you want, then you're also arguing that when the player stuffs up and Sheperd dies, they should start a new game. (And given how ME2 starts, with CGI that you can't skip past, you wouldn't really want to be doing that too often!)

[Kenthen]

Zandilar wrote...
On the other hand, the save function is there for a reason. If you're arguing against using saves to get the ending you want, then you're also arguing that when the player stuffs up and Sheperd dies, they should start a new game. (And given how ME2 starts, with CGI that you can't skip past, you wouldn't really want to be doing that too often!)

Except it's not really the same at all. If you get a shotgun blast to the head from an angry Krogan in whatever random mission the game just cuts out, there's no story to it, it doesn't move on, you just get a game over screen.
If people die on the suicide mission, even if Shepard dies after the boss, then the story still goes on, there's weight to it and it matters.

[Kuari999]

The only thing I felt I failed on my first playthrough was not saving the captured crew. Didn't realize waiting actually had an effect or I WOULD have gone after them right away. Everyone in my squad survived though, went with instinct and got them right the first try every time... even kept Mordin alive.

[vigna]

I figure Jack jinxed herself when she kept telling me to ***k off.

And really, could you really trust a biotic with that much power...it would be hard to. Especially when you help her and she still tells you to frell off.

[Nozybidaj]

I feel more like Shepard failed since the 10's of thousands of colonists that were kidnapped have all already been turned to jelly by the time we get there. Seems rather odd to me how that is always glossed over. I could care less if one of the new crew died, that isn't really a failure to me, but never having the chance to do anything for all the colonists certainly is.

[Vaeliorin]

I lost 2 my initial completion of the game, Tali and Legion. Both because I had Tali leading the fire teams. My Shepard trusted Tali more than anyone, and I honestly don't like that you have to choose one of 3 options to lead the fire team to prevent character death, since anyone with me should honestly be competent enough to hold off the Collectors with a team (why else would I bring them along if they couldn't?)



Anyway, I reloaded, randomly lost Mordin the second time, reloaded again and finally got a clean save (I wanted a clean save for my canon Shepard for ME3.)



I think I'd have been more accepting of having deaths if they'd seemed more meaningful. It seemed like when someone died my entire team (including Shepard) just kind of ignored it. I realize we weren't exactly in a position for extended mourning, but it really bothered me that no one even seemed to really care.

[NoctemEx]

I lost 3 people on my initial playthrough. Thane, Zaeed, and Mordin.



I was okay with Thane and Zaeed cause they were my decisions but I got the random off-screen death for Mordin and felt somewhat cheated cause there was nothing I could do for him. I plan to replay the ending to correct that part, but I'm going to leave the other 2 decisions the way they were. Even though I really liked Thane's character.

[Elastica]

You were supposed to lose some of them if not all, including yourself. Hence the suicide mission.



Saving everyone and completing the mission is just the best, most improbable outcome is all.

[Malidinus]

I can assure you that losing lives will always feel like a failure IRL. So in that sense you have failed if you lost any characters. You didn't fail the mission but you failed those under your command. In the end though it is the mission that matters the most. I didn't lose anyone but I sure as heck wouldn't have loaded if I had. You live with the decision you make and loading to change that is cheating. However, since your save will be carried over to the next game is is quite understandable there may be some characters you are not willing to drop... but that is also something you should consider while making the decisions.



My specialists were either the onest that were in my opinion best for the job OR had the required skills and whom I deemed expendable. They all did a smashing job, even Grunt whom I used to escort the crew.

[keginkc]

I would have felt like I failed. I did everything ingame that I could possibly do to keep everybody alive. Scan every world, run every mission, research every upgrade. I stopped short of reading up on the strategy, and I would not have restarted the mission had anyone other than Tali fallen, but if I walked into the mission thinking "ah, it's okay if some of them died" then all the tension would have been lost.  And the tension was what made the final act of the game so great.  The entire time on the station I'm wondering when somebody is going to die (including me, at the very end). 

Unfortunately it won't have the same impact the second time, or ensuing times, because I know exactly what to do. It's all common sense, if you've taken the time to explore your squad's backstories and character (as in what kind of individual each is).

What's going to suck is intentionally killing some off in the future, to see how it impacts ME3. I don't know if I can do that. I had a hell of a time killing Wrex in my renegade playthrough.

Although, on the other hand, losing Ash or Kaiden never seemed to bother me all that much. I never really had the connection with either of them that I had with other members of my crew. Unfortunately there's nobody in ME2 like that for me; I love my entire squad.

Modifié par keginkc, 04 février 2010 - 03:10 .

[Twitchmonkey]

As far as I'm concerned, I did what I could. I got all the upgrades, completed all the loyalty quests, and everyone was on good terms with me. If Jacob gets killed by a little fire bug thing (that's what that was right?) then that's his problem. I only lose Jack and Jacob and honestly, neither of them will be particularly missed. So my conscience is clean and two of my least favorite squad members won't be returning for ME3. I can handle that.

[Kwonnern]

fogofeternity wrote...

I see this comment made quite a lot. That if any members of your party died at the end then you're a bad or lazy player who "failed".

Seems relatively clear that there are two types of ME players predominantly; those who simply see it as a game to beat, and those who see it as an exceptional roleplaying/storytelling experience.

In terms of "beating the game", then clearly I didn't full succeed at the end. Jacob died in the vents, and Zaeed died leading the second distraction team. In terms of storyline though I found it rich and exciting, and from Jacob's death onwards I was second guessing my leadership choices and wondering what might happen to my squad.

I never felt like I was being blatantly reckless, or that the choices were particularly illogical. There was clearly debate about the best person to go through the vents (Jacob volunteered, Miranda's argument for a techie wasn't entirely conclusive). Zaeed has been a mercenary leader in the past, so reasonable for him to head up a distraction team. Both characters were loyal. But they still died.

The suggestion that people who lose squad members at the end should "reload the mission" seems the antithesis of storytelling, and one of the things that genuinely makes ME different from other games is the cinematic, epic scope of its story. It would seem completely pointless to me to reload.

So while I didn't "beat the game"  by getting everyone through, I tried my best as Shepard to do so, made some mistakes, and got a great and, importantly, very realistic end story. The results were heroic, made even more so by the poignancy of character's deaths. As a player I'm really happy those characters died, because it demonstrated again how ME is trying to provide a far more mature and cinematic experience to the player. 

That's not the "wrong" way per se, that was YOUR story and how it developed, something you can use in ME3 for an entirely different experience than if so and so was alive.

Modifié par Kwonnern, 04 février 2010 - 03:15 .

[fogofeternity]

Kwonnern wrote...

That's not the "wrong" way per se, that was YOUR story and how it developed, something you can use in ME3 for an entirely different experience than if so and so was alive.

Yeah, I think that's the point I was trying to make. That there were some threads on the board that suggested to get people killed meant you'd done things "wrong". Effectively taking a more "video gamer" attitude than a "roleplaying gamer" attitude; i.e. if you didn't finish the game in the best possible way then you had somehow failed. Whereas as a roleplayer I felt that I'd had a hugely rewarding and very personal story.

[GenericPlayer2]

I don't think its a failure to lose some people. I lost people the first time because I did not use the Krogan or the Geth. I was worried the former would bog me down with an anti geneophage agenda and that the latter would shoot me in the back.

Also, from an ME3 perspective, ME2 has taught me that characters who may possibly die will only get a cameo in the next sequel. As such, I only expect Liara (since she cannot die in ME1 or ME2) to be the only possible former squad mate to be recruitable in ME3.

In subsequent playthroughs I did not lose anyone. Still, I am trying to find a way to only lose only Jack or Jack & Jacob. Losing only Jacob is easy, but I am yet to find a way to lose Jack & Jacob without having a third casualty. I could live with a Jacob cameo in ME3, but I never want to see or hear from Jack again.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 04 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Naltair]

For me there is no right way to approach the suicide mission, I went into a media blackout and just did my best to upgrade my whole ship get everyone loyal and try to understand the varying characters as best as I could. my goal as a player was to get the achievement, my goal as Shepard was to make every life precious and although he figured he would not save the Lost, he could make their lives mean something but destroying the Collectors and doing the impossible.



He found new love along the way and that di affect some of his decisions, mainly I brought Tali with him and sent Legion into the vents, both were loyal and I chose Garrus to lead both fire teams. He performed exactly as I knew he would, even if he lost his team on Omega it wasn't his fault and I trusted him to get my men through alive. I chose Samara because she was the more stable of the two most powerful biotics in my group and we had a close bond and I trusted her to not let me down.



When I got to the final confrontation I chose Tali and Miranda, my go to squad and left the others to hod the line. Zaeed who some think is a good team leader was sent back to escort the crew. After talking to him a few times and after his Loyalty mission I knew he was not leader material, he was loyal but he didn't give a hoot about people under his command. So I chose him for escort which seemed the easiest job and I didn't want the whole crew dying.



It was tense but we made it through with no fatalities. Which for me reinforced why Cerberus brought my Shepard back, he was the man, the ultimate hero, the man that could do the impossible and consider it just doing his job.



I guess in the end for me not bringing anyone back from the crew or team would have been a failure for him, he lost a friend on Virmire, he lost Jenkins, he would not lose anymore if he could. He is still holding firm to that promise.

[HunterX6]

Wintermist wrote...

You're both Krogan!

lmao

[keginkc]

Naltair wrote...

For me there is no right way to approach the suicide mission, I went into a media blackout and just did my best to upgrade my whole ship get everyone loyal and try to understand the varying characters as best as I could. my goal as a player was to get the achievement, my goal as Shepard was to make every life precious and although he figured he would not save the Lost, he could make their lives mean something but destroying the Collectors and doing the impossible.

He found new love along the way and that di affect some of his decisions, mainly I brought Tali with him and sent Legion into the vents, both were loyal and I chose Garrus to lead both fire teams. He performed exactly as I knew he would, even if he lost his team on Omega it wasn't his fault and I trusted him to get my men through alive. I chose Samara because she was the more stable of the two most powerful biotics in my group and we had a close bond and I trusted her to not let me down.

When I got to the final confrontation I chose Tali and Miranda, my go to squad and left the others to hod the line. Zaeed who some think is a good team leader was sent back to escort the crew. After talking to him a few times and after his Loyalty mission I knew he was not leader material, he was loyal but he didn't give a hoot about people under his command. So I chose him for escort which seemed the easiest job and I didn't want the whole crew dying.

It was tense but we made it through with no fatalities. Which for me reinforced why Cerberus brought my Shepard back, he was the man, the ultimate hero, the man that could do the impossible and consider it just doing his job.

I guess in the end for me not bringing anyone back from the crew or team would have been a failure for him, he lost a friend on Virmire, he lost Jenkins, he would not lose anymore if he could. He is still holding firm to that promise.

That's almost exactly like my playthrough except I went Grunt instead of Zaeed, and Jacob instead of Garrus.  But the thinking was pretty much exactly the same.

It was not a "gamer" thing for me to finish with everybody alive.  I wasn't doing it to get an achievement.  It was my role, as Shepard, to get everybody out alive.  They were loyal to me, and I was loyal to them.  It would have crushed me to lose anybody.  (Watching the Tali incineration video kills me)  And fortunately I did get them out, although it was a close thing.  I didn't think I had, when Jacob was shot, or when Miranda and Tali were buried under rubble.

Now my current playthrough, on Insanity...that's a gamer playthrough.  Most of the time it's not even fun.  They should just call it "Reload" difficulty.

[ThePasserby]

Well, you, the player, didn't fail. You play the game as you choose to. But the character you roleplayed certainly has failed, in my eyes, as the cause of their deaths are the actions taken by your Shepard. Squad members not loyal to your Shepard? Not inspiring enough of a leader. Chose the wrong person for the wrong task? Poor judgment. Ship not upgraded with extra armour, shields and weapons? Ill-prepared.

So again, as a player, you have not failed. You play the game the way you want to. But the Shepard in your epic story is less of a leader for making those tactical mistakes.

[screwoffreg]

I rescued everyone my first time through, but that is primarily because I am a completionist and did every loyalty quest before hand as well as paying attention to the descriptions of the team leaders. I also was ready, after the Collector kidnappings, to immediately go to the Omega Relay. I really don't have an interest in having any of my party die as there is the strong suggestion that whoever remains is probably your team for ME 3, with maybe one or two additions. I will need everybody I can get.

[elearon1]

Amusingly, I only lost one person the first time through and now intend to play it again with the intention of not getting everyone loyal and seeing a number of them die in the suicide mission. Personally I feel it will add drama to the mission to have people dying off throughout - and make scene at the end with the coffins all the more potent.



The only way I'm going to reload is if I lose Tali, because I couldn't accept it if she weren't in my ME3 game.