442 réponses à ce sujet

[Turin_4]

The thing about Cerberus and the Illusive Man (and I'm sure someone has mentioned this in the nine pages this thread has gone) is that they were up to really awful stuff years *before* the Reaper threat or even Saren presented themselves.  That means they were doing things like torturing and experimenting on children, toying with *rachni*, wiping out small human settlements, and kidnapping people when the big threat was turians and batarians.

[oXPsYXo]

I completely support Cerberus, humanity has never had it easy and the first contact was a bloody one. I see Cerberus as being more patriotic than evil. The experiments they ran in the first game were to further increase humanity's power as a race.



Bio-Weapons to fight so humans don't have to. Advanced AI to process at paces the council races could never hope to achieve and super soldiers via the use of Biotics. The crudely carried out experiments were based on the prospect that we are the newest of the Citidel races thus we will be stepped on.



Appeasing looking aliens has converted many of the players into vicious xenophiles and have failed to realize that the alien races are invested in just as much self interest as humanity.



I didn't play renegade Shepard, but i did seize every opportunity to promote human rights in both games.



I obeyed the council and noted their constant worrying of political fallout so when the opportunity came to eliminate them i took it. Udina proposed a all human council. With all humanity had done to save the galaxy where tried and true races had failed, i agreed with the proposition and sat Anderson as the chairman for his no-nonsense nature.



I was wary of TIM and his intentions but he had extremely good reasons for everything he did. He may have used you as a tool, but the same could be said for the council. In the final moments of the game, i opted to save the base because regardless of the results that come from that decision it would push humanity further.



It was this self-interest that got us passed the first Mu-Relay, and it will be that same self-interest that will let us manage it properly, without needless bickering.

[Balek-Vriege]

I admit the Illusive Man knows what needs to be done, but he's no Anderson.



Where the Council messes up by not doing enough, the Illusive Man will mess up worse by going way too far. I find the Council has a better chance of doing the right thing (by letting Spectres do their job w/ oversight or cutting relations) than the Illusive Man (who basically bribes his operatives to get what he wants.) With Shepard he bribes him/her by ressurecting them then asks to be all powerful in return.



The only thing the Illusive Man has done right is bring Shepard back from the dead. Not Shepard's fault if he/she doesn't want to be his lemming in his galatic domination plans. Samara has the best quote about the Illusive Man's intentions after the end of the game. Something along the lines of:



"I agree with your decision Shepard. Although the Illusive Man thinks he has the wisdom to wield such power, he does not."

[Giantevilhead]

Default137 wrote...
And the Alliance destroyed cargo ships carrying Element Zero over large colonies so they could create more Biotics faster, and then continued to do this in more sporadic incidents as the original group of Biotics proved to be to small a sample size, killing billions in the process, which is several times more then how many people Cerberus has killed so far that we know of at least.

Oh, they also tried creating a group of AI controlled machines that they planned to use to destablize Council worlds, in an attempt to further their goals of getting on the Council/getting a Spectre, but this got found out and ended up failing quite badly, at the cost of once again, several hundred innocent people, largely because the Alliance didn't want word getting out of what they were doing.

Yet people hate Cerberus because the Illusive Man "may "have ordered a few minor bad things?

Thats like espousing Hitler as your one true god, and claiming Stalin was the worst man the planet has ever seen, its stupid blatent hypocrisy with no factual evidence.

So just because you hate Stalin, you can't hate Hitler?

If you're not going to blame TIM for ordering all the bad things Cerberus did, you can't blame the entire Alliance for the bad things they did either since they could have been ordered by just a few "rogue" Alliance officials.

Also, Stalin actually killed more people than Hitler.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Balek-Vriege wrote...
Samara:
"I agree with your decision Shepard. Although the Illusive Man thinks he has the wisdom to wield such power, he does not."

Seeing how Samara never met the Illusive Man, I say this is typical Asari arrogance.

[CynixV]

The turians engaged humans first, they fired the first shot the only reason the council stepped in because the turians suffered a dramatic defeat at the hands of a new species, and namely the turians were already on the Council Shocking ... promoting self interest. The council has proven time and again there all for there own self interest they used the krogan to quell the rachni, then the turians to unleash the genophage. The council also inacted the Treaty of Farixen to limit humans Dreadnaught production for every 5 dreads the turians get were allowed one.



The council would sell us out as easily as they did the krogan or use us just like the Turians.



I side with cerberus any day

[DesetFox1943]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

I truly enjoyed working for the illusive man, that guy have the same mindset as i have.

^^^^

[atheelogos]

Jalem001 wrote...
Terra Firma crosses the racist line, Cerberus does not.

I like the way you put that. I can't stand Terra Firma. But I can tolerate Cerberus.

[trigger2kill1]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The ******-sapiens (we) caused (whether directly or indirectly is still up to debate) the genocide of the ******-erectus. So in essence, we are a product of genocide. 
I am not implying anything. Just food for thought. 

Well if that don't beat all.... comparing genocide to survival of the fittest is just plain uneducated. Case in point Charles Darwin wrote in his book Origin of Species "In the struggle for survival, the fittest win out at the expense of their rivals because they succeed in adapting themselves best to their environment". Another example though admittedly one that is a bit off the path, could be that blue whale eats tons of krill every day and they are not even in the slightest of ways doing anything genocidal.

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 06 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

trigger2kill1 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The ******-sapiens (we) caused (whether directly or indirectly is still up to debate) the genocide of the ******-erectus. So in essence, we are a product of genocide. 
I am not implying anything. Just food for thought. 

Well if that don't beat all.... comparing genocide to survival of the fittest is just plain uneducated. Case in point Charles Darwin wrote in his book Origin of Species "In the struggle for survival, the fittest win out at the expense of their rivals because they succeed in adapting themselves best to their environment". Another example could be that simply blue whale eats tons of krill every day and they are not even in the slightest of ways doing anything with anysort of malice.

Many theorise (and it is logical) that ******-sapiens actively fought the ******-erectus for territory, ressources (hunting ground) and the like, which lead to the annihilation of the ******-erectus. It's not simple adaptability, but active rivalry.
Whether you want to consider that genocide or not is semantics. Nothing in the literal definition of genocide points to malice. It's not a necessary component. 
Case in point, ******-sapiens caused whether directly or indirectly (probably both) the annihilation of the ******-erectus. That was all my point.

Whales eat krill. ******-sapeins don't eat ******-erectus. The analogy is flawed. There is no rivalry between whales and krills.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 février 2010 - 03:37 .

[trigger2kill1]

Moot point both of us are in the ******-sapian catagory. True enough nothing in the literal definition of genocide had a damn to do with malice. However the practical definition deals only with malice. True enough though we both know that whales just think that krill are tastey, In fact what I was trying to describe was that if whales hated krill it could be considered genocide.

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 06 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[Lord Jaric]

I have yet to see an explanation is to why n a z i is being censored, even through it can be said anywhere else without it being censored and kids learn about in school.



p.s. we should probably stop the argument being that it is an off topic discussion

[trigger2kill1]

How bout being called a troll?

Cause that is certainly what you are doing.

If you don't believe it take a trip down to your local V.F.W. and call some older fella a N a z i,

He will describe it to ya real well, though not in a friendly manner to be sure. Probly introduce you to his oxygen cylinder and / or beer mug.

p.s. ya probly should saying that is like yelling fire in a crowded theater. we are still finding them bastards and prosecuting them nomatter what the expence.

[wako58]

Lord Jaric wrote...

I have yet to see an explanation is to why n a z i is being censored, even through it can be said anywhere else without it being censored and kids learn about in school.

p.s. we should probably stop the argument being that it is an off topic discussion

Yeah, you're trolling and doing a bad job of it.

[trigger2kill1]

Sorry to any of you that read that stuff I have just finished reading on what to do while placed in one of those situations and it seems that I broke just about every rule that there is reguarding that type of baiting.

[atheelogos]

So to get back on topic.... Default137 made some good points. Most of the stuff Cerberus did was done while they were still part of Alliance. Yet people in this thread act as if Cerberus is to blame. Why does the Alliance get a free pass?

[TLK Spires]

renegades want superiority

paragons want advancement



cerberus wants human *superiority*



if that doesn't help, then realize that TIM is hitler in outer space.

[KrazyKomrade]

Cerberus has good intentions but terrible methods.

But I just want to get a pair of those sweet blue eyes for myself

[Sharn01]

atheelogos wrote...

Jalem001 wrote...
Terra Firma crosses the racist line, Cerberus does not.

I like the way you put that. I can't stand Terra Firma. But I can tolerate Cerberus.

Except that TIM had the candidate for Terra Firma that was not in his pocket assassinated so that now it is just an extension of Cerberus.

Some people need to keep up on their Cerberus lore to understand exactly what they are capable of. 
ME2 could very easily have been the same game but with Cerberus gaining the tech earlier and Shep never having died, it would be his job to stop Cerberus from kidnapping colonist to turn to soup for its experiment's.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

TLK Spires wrote...

renegades want superiority
paragons want advancement

cerberus wants human *superiority*

if that doesn't help, then realize that TIM is hitler in outer space.

Both boil down to one simple thing, survival.

[VettoRyouzou]

Better Question: Why do people have to make topic to try and tell other there opinion and ME choices are wrong?



I play the game the game the way I want you play the game the way you want, that simple.

[Homebound]

Sheen pulled off the illusive man beautifully. He's got you thinking TiM is the good guy. With those glowing blue eyes, smooth voice, and heavily cosmetically augmented looks.

The illusive man will sacrifice 1000 Turian babies if it meant he could save 1 human life. 

With a person that has as much power as TiM does, why not save both?

Because TiM doesnt care about anybody else but humans.  And in the Mass Effect universe, that accounts for a VERY very small portion of the galaxy.

Modifié par Just_mike, 06 février 2010 - 12:26 .

[Scy Lancer]

Honestly it's the other end of the coin for Shepard. One side is the Council and the other is Cerberus. Like all great Sci-Fi and fantasy trilogy's, the second part is always darker. Cerberus makes the best stage for all of it.

Can't question the fact that IM knows what he is doing. His faith in Shepard is just as strong as the Councils.

The problem with "the ends justifying the means" only works if your ending is what you want. It's the sinner/saint scenario in life. To one your a hero and the other a villain.

[michal9o90]

Never mind how much ilusion man want help i still hate him and cerberus, because he just hide real intentions and on the end game we can see it, he want save base of collectors, you think why?



At the begining he will use it to destroy reapers, but after this he will use it to dominate in space.



I'm not going to let him to do this xD

[Jagri]

Survival is all well in good be it why did you not go with Saren's plan to begin with in Mass Effect? Saren wanted to secure our survival with great sacrifice and yes we would have... Well as paste to the Reapers and what remained of us would be Collecters but hay! We survived yea!!! Ends did justified the means.

I mean it just killed off any meaning we may have ever had in the galaxy in the first place but survival!

What would TIM do with a Collecters Base?

1) Didn't have shield or offensive weapon capability so can't slavage anything there. Would think it would attack the Normandy alongside the Collecters Ship if capable.

2) Hall wasn't too advance ether.

3) Ability to produce Biological weapons (Seeker Swarms) is appearent and capable of disabling nervious system of organic life forms. -Not going to be effective against the Reapers- Controllable is debateable.

4) Ability to produce Reapers with large amounts of organic material estimated guess to make one is around half a million lives if not a full million. If they can be controlled is debateable.

5) Now perhaps we can slavage Reaper weapons if the Collecters Base was capable of producing them be it from what we seen of the Human Reaper it wasn't fitted with anything but some odd pulse weapon that took a few discharges just to kill or attempt to kill 3 organic life forms. Thinking weapons may be outfitted in a diffirent location.

The only thing TIM is likely to gain is a upper hand in technology which would only be effective in combating the races of the Galaxy. Likely to use Seeker Swarms to collect enough life to build his own Reapers so all that effort goes to waste. But hay we will harvest alien colonies now.

Ether way this all seems a bad idea.

Modifié par Jagri, 06 février 2010 - 12:56 .