442 réponses à ce sujet

[glacier1701]

ME2 does paint Cerberus in a different light. It certainly was trying to change its public image but still it had the one person heading it that was willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone in the name of human dominance. It is apparent how egomaniacal TIM is in that his most trusted personnel repudiated his way of thinking and sided with Shepard and all he does is spout threats. What finally convinces me that Cerberus is wrong is a conversation I had with Mordin. After destroying the base and going around talking to everyone on my 4th playthrough (not sure why it didnt come up in my first 3 playthroughs) Mordin casually makes the statement that he is working on Cerberus personnel dental records. Turns out that all Cerbersu personnel have a cyanide capsule in a molar. If that were not enough they also have an 'ocular flashbang'. In other words they seem to have a switch in them that can be used to terminate them. This is not the action of someone who has the force of right behind them but the action of someone who wants to be able to ensure loyalty by the threat of death if they betray him. As far as I am concerned TIM is on the same death list that Balak is on. If there is ever a face-to-face meeting it will end with a gunshot.

[Barrendall]

If it wasn't for the fact that he insisted that there would be no control chip placed in Shepard's brain I would think TIM was just another Reaper pawn, and that the rezzing of Shepard was for training scenarios for the Reaper's shock troops the Collector's. It just seemed that TIM was eerily too familiar with the Reaper's agenda. But no control chip, TIM's just a xenophobic Megalomaniac.

[atheelogos]

Remaix wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

For all the bad they have done, they did resurrect Shep, saving him from the Collectors. If not for TIM's actions, hundreds of thousands of lives would be lost to the human Reaper. So in my book, Cerberus is even.
If TIM cleans up his act, we could be good buds. If he goes back to more experiments and evilness, I will be forced to bring him down.

Fine. TIM saved a lot of people by doing that. But that does not mean that the blood on his hands has been washed off.

Would you say the same thing about the Alliance?

[Shadowfire67]

Glad I'm not the only Cerberus supporter here. I'm trying to go pro-human in my main play through and Cerberus fits perfectly.

[A Blind Bandit]

At first I was indifferent toward them but after reading Mass Effect: Ascension I'm glad that I blew up that base. ****ing xenophobes. Where do they get off assuming that humanity should be in power after being on the galactic scene for only 35 years?!? The first guy who went through a mass relay is still alive!

[Esker02]

A Blind Bandit wrote...

At first I was indifferent toward them but after reading Mass Effect: Ascension I'm glad that I blew up that base. ****ing xenophobes. Where do they get off assuming that humanity should be in power after being on the galactic scene for only 35 years?!? The first guy who went through a mass relay is still alive!

Well, given that the only reason the galaxy isn't Reaper food right now (and presumably will never be Reaper food) is a human (ME1, a human organization ME2), I'd say there's some justification right away.

[axl99]

The things Cerberus proved to me in the game were how much infighting and security leaks there really were in this fractured organization. The Illusive Man's talent for multi-tasking just isn't enough to rein in those who've deviated from his designs.



Mordin was very similar to the Illusive man in the consequentialistic mindset as well as the heretic geth, but you find that Mordin nearly lost himself because the results of his actions consumed his thoughts. If he truly believed the ends justifies the means, none of what he did in the STG would've bothered him at all.



The only justification for Cerberus right now is the fact they are taking action against the real threat. It doesn't mean some people can't be distrustful of the ulterior motives of other members in its organization.

[CmdrFenix83]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

I truly enjoyed working for the illusive man, that guy have the same mindset as i have.

Does a "The means justify the end" attitude hold a high moral/ethical value compared to our 2010 western culture standards? Maybe not, but who cares? In a hostile universe as mass effect 2 it truly is survival of the fittest. And most self rightious good doers tends to end up dead.

The Illusive man has plans for humanity. He has ambition and he is strong and resourcefull and i wouldve followed him and cerberus to hell and back. Without him and cerberus recovering shepard the mass effect universe would probarly have ended in tragedy and annihilation.

I look foward to work for him, or even replace him in ME:3!

If you follow the game's results... the idealistic 'self righteous good-doers' make the galaxy *dramatically* better overall.  For example...

Paragon Shep saves Council - Humanity as a whole is lauded as heroes.
Renegade Shep lets Council die - Humanity is hated throughout the galaxy.  Baily even warns against going anywhere alone to prevent being assaulted.

Paragon Shep spares Wrex - Krogan united under Wrex's leadership.
Renegade Shep kills or has Wrex killed - Krogan remain splintered and slaughtering each other in civil war

Paragon Shep spares Rachni Queen - It's revealed that the Rachni aren't naturally aggressive and that the entire Rachni War was caused by the Reapers, and that the Rachni will stand by Shepard in the war against them.
Renegade Shep dissolves Rachni Queen - Loss of potential ally and story.

As for Cerberus... if you didn't do the sidequests in the first game, then you wouldn't know.  They tested out husks on a budding colony and got the entire place wiped out.  They tortured and murdered dozens if not hundreds of children for the sake of 'research'.

[Terraneaux]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

As for Cerberus... if you didn't do the sidequests in the first game, then you wouldn't know.  They tested out husks on a budding colony and got the entire place wiped out.  They tortured and murdered dozens if not hundreds of children for the sake of 'research'.

They also assassinated an Alliance admiral and murdered dozens of Alliance soldiers, in some cases abducting them for experiments.  TIM trying to claim some sort of moral high ground is absolutely ridiculous, he's as bad as the Batarians, and as much of a threat to humanity.  The writers in ME2 tried their damndest to make Cerberus smell like a rose though.

[Esker02]

Terraneaux wrote...

They also assassinated an Alliance admiral and murdered dozens of Alliance soldiers, in some cases abducting them for experiments.  TIM trying to claim some sort of moral high ground is absolutely ridiculous, he's as bad as the Batarians, and as much of a threat to humanity.  The writers in ME2 tried their damndest to make Cerberus smell like a rose though.

And yet, their actions are the only reason any hope remains. If it wasn't for the Illusive Man and Cerberus, Shepard would be as dead as disco, and with him the galaxy would have followed. You can /rage over all of the things Cerberus did in the past that you disagree with, but at the end of the day every living thing is in their debt - and that's a truth you really can't escape from.

That's why the extremist paragons with their "I wanna kill the Illusive Man SOOO much" are amusing in their ignorance. He has given Shepard, and in so doing, the galaxy another chance at survival. That's simply irrefutable.

[Ktauliss]

Esker02 wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

They also assassinated an Alliance admiral and murdered dozens of Alliance soldiers, in some cases abducting them for experiments.  TIM trying to claim some sort of moral high ground is absolutely ridiculous, he's as bad as the Batarians, and as much of a threat to humanity.  The writers in ME2 tried their damndest to make Cerberus smell like a rose though.

And yet, their actions are the only reason any hope remains. If it wasn't for the Illusive Man and Cerberus, Shepard would be as dead as disco, and with him the galaxy would have followed. You can /rage over all of the things Cerberus did in the past that you disagree with, but at the end of the day every living thing is in their debt - and that's a truth you really can't escape from.

That's why the extremist paragons with their "I wanna kill the Illusive Man SOOO much" are amusing in their ignorance. He has given Shepard, and in so doing, the galaxy another chance at survival. That's simply irrefutable.

1.) I have never said I want to see The Illusive Man Dead. (I just don't trust him or Cerberus under his leadership)

2.) Let's get this straight, The Illusive Man poured a boatload of resources into bringing Shepard back true.  But ....... It is Shepard's actions/choices that saved life as we know it in the Mass Effect Universe often going counter to the wishes of The Illusive Man (Cerberus gets no credit for that).  Shepard was brought back because he/she was the 'Most likely to succeed' tool.  In the Prologue it is even stated that while Humanity and the Alliance Would Not Trust Cerberus they would follow Shepard that he/she was (In Miranda's Words) "A Bloody Icon".

[Barrendall]

Esker02 wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

They also assassinated an Alliance admiral and murdered dozens of Alliance soldiers, in some cases abducting them for experiments.  TIM trying to claim some sort of moral high ground is absolutely ridiculous, he's as bad as the Batarians, and as much of a threat to humanity.  The writers in ME2 tried their damndest to make Cerberus smell like a rose though.

And yet, their actions are the only reason any hope remains. If it wasn't for the Illusive Man and Cerberus, Shepard would be as dead as disco, and with him the galaxy would have followed. You can /rage over all of the things Cerberus did in the past that you disagree with, but at the end of the day every living thing is in their debt - and that's a truth you really can't escape from.

That's why the extremist paragons with their "I wanna kill the Illusive Man SOOO much" are amusing in their ignorance. He has given Shepard, and in so doing, the galaxy another chance at survival. That's simply irrefutable.

TIM rezzed Shepard for his own selfish ambitions not for humanity.  He's clearly charismatic and has been able to manipulate his employees and backers into believing his propoganda and agenda but when it comes right down to it TIM believes only in what's advantageous for TIM.

[BattleVisor]

Esker02 wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

They also assassinated an Alliance admiral and murdered dozens of Alliance soldiers, in some cases abducting them for experiments.  TIM trying to claim some sort of moral high ground is absolutely ridiculous, he's as bad as the Batarians, and as much of a threat to humanity.  The writers in ME2 tried their damndest to make Cerberus smell like a rose though.

And yet, their actions are the only reason any hope remains. If it wasn't for the Illusive Man and Cerberus, Shepard would be as dead as disco, and with him the galaxy would have followed. You can /rage over all of the things Cerberus did in the past that you disagree with, but at the end of the day every living thing is in their debt - and that's a truth you really can't escape from.

That's why the extremist paragons with their "I wanna kill the Illusive Man SOOO much" are amusing in their ignorance. He has given Shepard, and in so doing, the galaxy another chance at survival. That's simply irrefutable.

'An eye for eye doesn't make the world blind. But turning the other cheek does'

So what, they did one good deed that saved Shepard's, it doesnt redeem them, as they are still a constant threat to inter-galacttic humanity.

[Esker02]

None of what has been said gets at my point. Cerberus is now a crucial part of the chain of causality that will result in the galaxy being saved from the Reapers. I'd say that more than redeems them for any experiments you personally don't agree with. It'd be convenient for you to villify Cerberus - it'd make those Paragon tantrums seem even the slightest bit appropriate all of a sudden - but the simple fact is they played a role in the saving of the galaxy that nobody else was willing to play. And because of that role, life will continue.



No other group or individual, short of Shepard himself, can claim that sort of crucial involvement. Sure, the Illusive Man and Cerberus acted for humanity, but let's say I save a bus of children because my child is on that bus (not necessarily because I care about the other children, but notice that indifference doesn't mean I hate them either) - I still, nevertheless, saved the entire bus - and they are ALL in my debt regardless of my specific intention.

[anmiro]

The Illusive Man (Martin Sheen was awesome by the way) is a total douchebag. He may not have had a hand in killing Admiral Kahoku, which has not been ruled out, but that doesn't mean he's not capable of it. The guy is a elitist who thinks the ends always justify the means. He is the opposite of Captain Anderson (Keith David also rocks).

[anmiro]

Don't forget that the Illusive Man doesn't just want to save the Galaxy, he wants to use Reaper technology to make humanity the dominant force in the Galaxy. This guy is like the Lord Sidious of Mass Effect. Shepard is going to save the Galaxy with or withouthis help.

[Esker02]

anmiro wrote...

The guy is a elitist who thinks the ends always justify the means.

How this statement got a negative connotation always baffles me. Virtually everything we do in our life is a mean of sacrifice which is justified by the end. I want something to eat, so I go through the work of preparing it, so that I may eat. I want money, so I go to work and sacrifice my leisure time. I want to ace a test, so I study hard when I wish I could be playing ME2.

All of life is sacrifice - who are you to decide what sacrifices can and cannot be made in the name of a positive ends? Amusingly, by virtue of the fact that you are judging the Illusive Man's conclusions on this matter, you are guilty of acting as the same sort of "elitist" you describe him as, sir. What makes your value judgments the right ones, and his the wrong ones?

My opinion? Nothing does.

[anmiro]

Esker02 wrote...

anmiro wrote...

The guy is a elitist who thinks the ends always justify the means.

How this statement got a negative connotation always baffles me. Virtually everything we do in our life is a mean of sacrifice which is justified by the end. I want something to eat, so I go through the work of preparing it, so that I may eat. I want money, so I go to work and sacrifice my leisure time. I want to ace a test, so I study hard when I wish I could be playing ME2.

All of life is sacrifice - who are you to decide what sacrifices can and cannot be made in the name of a positive ends? Amusingly, by virtue of the fact that you are judging the Illusive Man's conclusions on this matter, you are guilty of acting as the same sort of "elitist" you describe him as, sir. What makes your value judgments the right ones, and his the wrong ones?

My opinion? Nothing does.

Because were aren't talking about trivial little things, we are talking about big picture stuff. For example: Did the ****'s have the right to conduct horrible experiments on prisoners if it led to breakthroughs in medicine. 

[Skilled Seeker]

Esker has won me over. Hail TIM!

[RhythmlessNinja]

If The Illusive Man could give me better explantion to kill someone or take over a collectors base besides "It's for the sake of humanity" I'd be more inclined to believe him.

[Alasted]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I suspect it's at least partially due to my intense dislike for Martin Sheen.

[anmiro]

People don't do evil things simply for the sake of being evil. I'm sure in Tim's mind the things he does are entirely justifiable. But there is a good reason why you get Renegade points for going along with what this guys says and if some people can't figure that out, than just I see that as a testament to what a good job they did writing the character of the Illusive Man.

Modifié par anmiro, 18 février 2010 - 11:25 .

[anmiro]

Alasted wrote...

I can't speak for anybody else, but I suspect it's at least partially due to my intense dislike for Martin Sheen.

I don't like the Illusive Man. But I think he is a great villain and I think Martin was perfect for the role.

[Esker02]

anmiro wrote...

Because were aren't talking about trivial little things, we are talking about big picture stuff. For example: Did the ****'s have the right to conduct horrible experiments on prisoners if it led to breakthroughs in medicine. 

Exactly - we are talking about big picture stuff. If any time called for the suspension of commonplace morality, it would be when the stakes are highest, no? It would be wrong for me to kill a man for a sandwich, but would it be wrong to do so for galactic security? Additionally, my position on that particular issue you allude to is irrelevant and I think misleading. If you are trying to draw an analogy between that and the activity Cerberus was a part of in ME1, I direct you toward Miranda's explanations of those events.

I'm not nominating the Illusive Man for sainthood, necessarily, nor am I guaranteeing nothing but sunshine and good times will come of handing the base over to his hands. I'm merely respecting the debt that now exists to him and all of Cerberus for his actions. It's such a simple thing, but there's a weird (and I deem it irrational) hatred and distrust of the Illusive Man and Cerberus merely because agreeing with them happens to occupy the bottom right of the conversation wheel.

Modifié par Esker02, 18 février 2010 - 11:26 .