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[OverlordNexas]

Cerberus isn't just morally reprehensible, they are painfully incompetent as well. Everything Cerberus has done excluding Project Lazarus has blown up in their faces. Jack, the Ascension Program, the Rachni, the Thorian, Akuze, murdering Admiral Kahoku. All these things came back to bite them in the ass. How they still manage to get funding is beyond me. They must be getting all their resources from the people who fund Umbrella.

[Esker02]

OverlordNexas wrote...

 Everything Cerberus has done excluding Project Lazarus has blown up in their faces.

But they got it right when it mattered most, didn't they?

[Riot Inducer]

Esker02 wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

 Everything Cerberus has done excluding Project Lazarus has blown up in their faces.

But they got it right when it mattered most, didn't they?

Well assuming Shepard flipped TIM the bird, blew up the base and ran off with the most advanced frigate in the galaxy I'd say that counts as, "blowing up in their faces"

[Terraneaux]

It has nothing to do with being Renegade.  It has everything to do with Cerberus as an organization being written as unrealistically competent compared to every other force in the setting, despite much evidence to the contrary.  Furthermore, as TIM runs information on a need-to-know basis, you basically have to trust him completely in order to buy into his rhetoric.  Remember the Collector Ship mission, where he sends you into an ambush?  Not only is that something that just about any Shepard wouldn't like, he tells you to tell your crew that he did it for the right reasons... and you do, with no decision in the matter.  I have two main complaints with Cerberus and TIM being used the way they are in ME2: 1) There is a huge discontinuity between the way the organization is portrayed in ME1 and ME2, which breaks the verisimilitude of the world for me, and 2) Many of the actions of the organization are the kinds of actions your character would object to, but you are not given that option.  Taken together, these two things lead me to believe that the writing team was not particularly interested in telling a story about how awesome Shepard was going to save the galaxy, but more a story about how this awesome TIM was going to save the galaxy with his smarts and manipulation.  I have no interest in playing an RPG where the ability to be the protagonist is taken away from the character I am playing.

Modifié par Terraneaux, 18 février 2010 - 11:43 .

[Esker02]

Riot Inducer wrote...

Well assuming Shepard flipped TIM the bird, blew up the base and ran off with the most advanced frigate in the galaxy I'd say that counts as, "blowing up in their faces"

Well, even if we go with your Shepard's events as 'the events,' Ceberus still succeeded in removing the Collector threat from human colonies and restarting the efforts to stop the Reapers. I'd say that's a success to the goal of "preserving humanity" from just about any angle you look at it.

Terraneaux wrote...


It has nothing to do with being Renegade.  It has everything to do with Cerberus as an organization being written as unrealistically competent compared to every other force in the setting, despite much evidence to the contrary.  Furthermore, as TIM runs information on a need-to-know basis, you basically have to trust him completely in order to buy into his rhetoric.  Remember the Collector Ship mission, where he sends you into an ambush?  Not only is that something that just about any Shepard wouldn't like, he tells you to tell your crew that he did it for the right reasons... and you do, with no decision in the matter.  I have two main complaints with Cerberus and TIM being used the way they are in ME2: 1) There is a huge discontinuity between the way the organization is portrayed in ME1 and ME2, which breaks the verisimilitude of the world for me, and 2) Many of the actions of the organization are the kinds of actions your character would object to, but you are not given that option.  Taken together, these two things lead me to believe that the writing team was not particularly interested in telling a story about how awesome Shepard was going to save the galaxy, but more a story about how this awesome TIM was going to save the galaxy with his smarts and manipulation.  I have no interest in playing an RPG where the ability to be the protagonist is taken away from the character I am playing.

I can and do respect these objections insofar as they are about design choices. My only concern is about Cerberus and the Illusive Man as they are, not as they were or as they should have been (regardless of how well founded your complaints are). To my concern, I would say, it is unreasonable to see the Illusive Man or Cerberus as something evil and in fact perfectly reasonable to see them as the true heroes - and I think, if I'm reading you correctly, that's actually part of your ultimate problem.

But like I said, I can respect that because we aren't necessarily in disagreement.

Modifié par Esker02, 18 février 2010 - 11:50 .

[anmiro]

The Illusive Man has only one thing going for him and that is the fact that he recognizes the real threat. I appreciate the fact that he brought me back from the dead and the fact that he built another Normandy for me. But I also recognize that the Illusive Man has a hidden agenda here. Hes not just thinking about using Reaper technology to defeat the Reapers, hes thinking about all the the other things hes going to do with it after we defeat the Reapers, to secure humanities place as a dominant force in the Galaxy. But the fact that I have an option to say no, I'm going to destroy it, tells me that this is not the only way to defeat the Reapers. In fact, If the choices I make in ME2 have the same amount of impact as the choices I made in ME1, than it really doesn't matter. The only difference that it makes is the Paragon or Renegade points.

Modifié par anmiro, 18 février 2010 - 11:48 .

[Haasth]

I'm not dropping Cerberus as a possible ally simply because they are morally wrong.

Neither am I accepting them as allies blindly. They are a resource, one I can use for now. I am not giving them much to go with and won't take any from them either (Well I did give them that Collector Base...)



Until they can prove me their loyalty and get more successful and save research going I won't accept them as allies. I'll treat them neutral for now. I share their 'end justifies the means' in a lot of cases... but they are difficult to trust.

[anmiro]

Just look at Tim, he is poorly lit, his eyes are glowing, he breathes smoke and he is standing in front of giant ball of fire. He brought me back from the dead, gives me every thing I could possibly want. Sound familiar yet. All he wants in return is this one little thing. Reaper Technology. I know the devil when I see him and I don't make it a habit of doing him favors.

Modifié par anmiro, 19 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[Esker02]

anmiro wrote...

But the fact that I have an option to say no, I'm going to destroy it, tells me that this is not the only way to defeat the Reapers. In fact, If the choices I make in ME2 have the same amount of impact as the choices I made in ME1, than it really doesn't matter. The only difference that it makes is the Paragon or Renegade points.

To quote Han Olar: Of course, this is perfectly true. And for a lot of people, that's truly what matters - they'll be able to save the galaxy completely and never have to compromise their morality for a second. I hold onto some hope, perhaps, that doing the "right" thing isn't necessarily doing the correct thing (Lord Harrowmont from DA:O should ring a few bells) in every circumstance.

Though, I will say again, I haven't tried necessarily to make you love Cerberus and without question hand them the base and sing the Illusive Man's praises at every chance you get. I merely want them to have the respect they deserve for their pivotal role in preserving the galaxy - regardless of what you think their intentions are or what their intentions ultimately end up being - you have to at least give them that much. The galaxy as it stands is in their debt. Beyond that, on the subject of their trustworthiness for instance, I would say reasonable people can disagree to an extent (though referencing his appearance, for example, is not the strongest piece of evidence for me despite how often it is used), at least given the knowledge we are limited to at this point.

Modifié par Esker02, 19 février 2010 - 12:06 .

[Terraneaux]

Esker02 wrote...



Though, I will say again, I haven't tried necessarily to make you love Cerberus and without question hand them the base and sing the Illusive Man's praises at every chance you get. I merely want them to have the respect they deserve for their pivotal role in preserving the galaxy - regardless of what you think their intentions are or what their intentions ultimately end up being - you have to at least give them that much. The galaxy as it stands is in their debt. Beyond that, on the subject of their trustworthiness for instance, I would say reasonable people can disagree to an extent (though referencing his appearance, for example, is not the strongest piece of evidence for me despite how often it is used), at least given the knowledge we are limited to at this point.

They're like a mad dog that happens to be mauling a murderer at the moment.  Once they're done, put them down without a care.  That's all Cerberus deserves.

[anmiro]

Esker02 wrote...

anmiro wrote...

But the fact that I have an option to say no, I'm going to destroy it, tells me that this is not the only way to defeat the Reapers. In fact, If the choices I make in ME2 have the same amount of impact as the choices I made in ME1, than it really doesn't matter. The only difference that it makes is the Paragon or Renegade points.

To quote Han Olar: Of course, this is perfectly true. And for a lot of people, that's truly what matters - they'll be able to save the galaxy completely and never have to compromise their morality for a second. I hold onto some hope, perhaps, that doing the "right" thing isn't necessarily doing the correct thing (Lord Harrowmont from DA:O should ring a few bells) in every circumstance.

Though, I will say again, I haven't tried necessarily to make you love Cerberus and without question hand them the base and sing the Illusive Man's praises at every chance you get. I merely want them to have the respect they deserve for their pivotal role in preserving the galaxy - regardless of what you think their intentions are or what their intentions ultimately end up being - you have to at least give them that much. The galaxy as it stands is in their debt. Beyond that, on the subject of their trustworthiness for instance, I would say reasonable people can disagree to an extent (though referencing his appearance, for example, is not the strongest piece of evidence for me despite how often it is used), at least given the knowledge we are limited to at this point.

Cerberus has played a major role and people like kelly Chambers, Miranda Lawson, and Jacob Taylor are the future of Cerberus. But Tim is a relic of the past. He is an immoral person and it is time for a change in management. The fact that this super secret organization has a company logo and that its smacked on the side of everything associated with it is proof enough of that.

Modifié par anmiro, 19 février 2010 - 12:21 .

[Esker02]

anmiro wrote...

Cerberus has played a major role and people like kelly Chambers, Miranda Lawson, and Jacob Taylor are the future of Cerberus. But Tim is a relic of the past. He is an immoral person and it is time for a change in management. The fact that this super secret organization has a company logo and that its smacked on the side of everything associated is proof enough of that.

Mhmm. Miranda wanted a control chip in Shepard's mind. The Illusive Man did not. However, I'll concede he did not want it not because he thought it would be a terrible thing to do, but because it would harm your ability to be at your fullest potential. The Illusive Man would best be described as amoral, not immoral in his pursuits, but more importantly, WHAT he is pursuing is positive. Human interests in and of themselves are nothing to be distrusted (your Kelly Chambers articulates this best), least of which when they happen to coincide with galactic interests as they have done in ME1, 2, and presumably 3 (unless the Reapers propose a deal where they'll spare us and take the others).

My point being, again, we can't know yet the direction that the Illusive Man is ultimately planning. I'm going to enter some personal opinion here but, in my mind the only evidence that it is somehow "evil" or will end up being destructive is purely because being cordial to him happens to be Renegade, and constant references to the fact that he just looks like one hell of a sketchy guy. Those aren't sufficient to me, but I freely admit that I can and may very well be wrong about him when ME3 hits. But it might just turn out that it's you who are wrong about him, and that his warning about not being blinded by idealism wasn't just an idle threat.

Modifié par Esker02, 19 février 2010 - 12:24 .

[Terraneaux]

Esker02 wrote...

anmiro wrote...

Cerberus has played a major role and people like kelly Chambers, Miranda Lawson, and Jacob Taylor are the future of Cerberus. But Tim is a relic of the past. He is an immoral person and it is time for a change in management. The fact that this super secret organization has a company logo and that its smacked on the side of everything associated is proof enough of that.

Mhmm. Miranda wanted a control chip in Shepard's mind. The Illusive Man did not. However, I'll concede he did not want it not because he thought it would be a terrible thing to do, but because it would harm your ability to be at your fullest potential. The Illusive Man would best be described as amoral, not immoral in his pursuits, but more importantly, WHAT he is pursuing is positive. Human interests in and of themselves are nothing to be distrusted (your Kelly Chambers articulates this best), least of which when they happen to coincide with galactic interests as they have done in ME1, 2, and presumably 3 (unless the Reapers propose a deal where they'll spare us and take the others).

My point being, again, we can't know yet the direction that the Illusive Man is ultimately planning. I'm going to enter some personal opinion here but, in my mind the only evidence that it is somehow "evil" or will end up being destructive is purely because being cordial to him happens to be Renegade, and constant references to the fact that he just looks like one hell of a sketchy guy. Those aren't sufficient to me, but I freely admit that I can and may very well be wrong about him when ME3 hits. But it might just turn out that it's you who are wrong about him, and this his warning about not being blinded by idealism wasn't just an idle threat.

Somehow Shepard manages to pursue saving the galaxy and humanity without performing all sorts of terrible experiments on the very people who are also sworn to protect humanity.  Cerberus is competent (unrealistically so) but they are also douchebags, and it's not their being douchebags which *makes* them competent.  

[anmiro]

Kelly Chambers does articulate it the best because she is not fully aware of what Cerberus is capable of and what it has done in the past. I say she is the future because she has the right idea. But that is not what Cerberus is going to be under the Illusive Man. Even if Cerberus helps Shepard save the galaxy, people like Tim are still going to have to account for what they have done in the past.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

Honestly from the mission notes and TIM's emails/chats with him he seems to be quite level heaed. He isnt purposely going out his way to kill aliens and seems entirely focuse don keeping each race at its peak to fight the Reapers. He is worried about the Quarian and Geth war, as he sees oth races being decimated by the war and unable to fight the Reapers.



He does put humanity first, but hes not an xenophobe at all. You think the Council or the Alliance are much better? At least Cereberus stands up and says "Well, at least we are trying!". Not everything they have done has been on the level, but I found myself more than happy to work with them.

[Serpenttt92]

illusive man is nothing... he serves me... in the end...

i'll kill him...

Use him... and strain him to the fullest...

[anmiro]

And I say Miranda is the future of Cerberus because in the end, if your a paragon than she also see the dangers of handing over the Reaper technology to Tim.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Go Team Cerberus!



Shepherd even wore the Cerberus armor throughout most of the playthrough

[Terraneaux]

anmiro wrote...

And I say Miranda is the future of Cerberus because in the end, if your a paragon than she also see the dangers of handing over the Reaper technology to Tim.

It'd be pretty sweet if the two of you could, you know, decide to change the direction of Cerberus and stage a coup.  But that's an avenue I doubt will be explored in the series.

[JRM01]

I'm totaly loyal to Cerberus, they are the only organization in the entire galaxy that could see the truth, and dealt with it. If it was up to the precious Alliance, Sheppard would still be toast, the collectors build their human-reaper, and the approaching reapers would've had no resistance whatsoever. And with all this knowledge my team is still very sceptical about cerberus in the post-game conversations.

[Torhagen]

I was astonished at Mirandas Reaction if she coud figure that is right thing to do ...

[Habelo]

all hail illusive man, the new emperor of le galaxy.

[anmiro]

Cutlass Jack wrote...



My thought is that keeping that base is about the stupidest decision you could make next to sleeping with Morinth.



The base was a factory for distilling humans into a reaper. If that's the tech we need to win, It amounts to doing the Reaper's job for them.

Found this in another thread and thought it was relevant.

[anmiro]

It's not enough just to survive, you have to deserve it.

[Esker02]

anmiro wrote...

It's not enough just to survive, you have to deserve it.

lol Yeah, well, if my choices are ever an "undeserving survival" or dying for somebody else's idealism, I think I'll take the route where I'm alive every time.

Could just be me though.