442 réponses à ce sujet

[stuchiu]

I was against TIM for the most part. For me it was a combination of his methods and goals. His stated goal: domination or advancement of humanity. Good enough, I can live with that. But his methods were generally crap. TIM only ever has one mode of operation, and that is renegade. He sees a problem and hits it with a blunt hammer till he gets his goal. Essentially it boils down to how competent TIM is. If I actually thought he was competent at what he did, then maybe I would like him. But for the most part he isn't.

Things he has done right:

1) Resurrect Shepard

2) Outfit him with a crew and list of recruits

3) Get information

4) Have unlimited resources

Things he screwed up on:

1) Thresher maw experiments. Does anyone even know what the point on experimenting thresher maws was? Was it to control the thresher maw and control it? Was he just trying to run simulations on how many humans a thresher maw could kill? Whatever the case he got 50 marines killed on Akuze + Kahoku's entire crew + Kahoku.

2) Covering up the thresher maw incident. He killed Kahoku, but not before Kahoku got a message out to Shepard. And that ends with the destruction of that entire cell.

3) Protecting his operations. I know in ME1 I destroyed somewhere around 6-7 Cerberus operation groups. They include the Thorians, rachni, tombs, kahoku, husks, and a few other random ones. TIM doesn't have more than appro. 12 cells running at a time, meaning that in ME1 I destroyed half of his operations by myself.

4) Jack's biotic experiment. Apparently this operation went rogue and started to experiment on the children there in horrific ways. But this implies only 1 of 2 things about TIM. 1) He is an incompetent who can't even tell when his operations go rogue or 2) He wanted the experiments to continue, but in order to save face within his own organization he feigned ignorance.

4) Loyalty. TIM doesn't seem to have anyone that is completely devoted to his cause except Miranda. And even then you can turn her. And depending on player's choice you can turn on him with your entire crew.

5) A lot of his experiments have backfired in horrible horrible ways. Rachni queen could have joined Saren and ****ed over the galaxy. Thorian Creeper actually helped Saren move his way towards the Ilos. And I expect that if he got his hands on the Collector base, he would use the tech to build some kind of human/reaper hybrid. And it's probably going to backfire in his face again as the human-reaper hybrid he creates names himself Kefka and destroys the universe as we know it.



Though I can see why people would want to work with TIM. Despite all of those failings, he did revive Shepard. That's like reviving Batman.

[Gill Kaiser]

Lord Atlia wrote...

Really I think that Bioware attempted to salvage Cerberus and thus tried painting them more noble than in ME1. They might have what they considered a noble agenda but most of the galaxy thinks they are terrorists, including the alliance, and most of their actions pre ME2 point to terrorism.

As far as I'm concerned, Cerberus as an organisation obviously has some good people working for it. Jacob, Kelly, engineers Ken and Gabby,  and the rest of the crew of the Normandy SR-2 are all nice people trying to make difference for humanity. Miranda as the Illusive Man's XO is more of a Cerberus apologist, but even she is generally righteous.

For me it really boils down to the Illusive Man himself. He's the guy in charge, and he's the one who all the Cerberus cells (even the Bond-style evil ones) answer to. I don't trust him at all, but I do believe that he also only has humanity's interests at heart. Unfortunately IMO he's willing to go too far.

[CutterJohn1]

TIM is quite clearly an extremely competent man. If he is ruthless in his methods, well, so be it. This is by far the largest threat ever known to the galaxy. If the price of surviving that threat is possible human dominance for some period of time, so be it. Its not the best possible outcome, but also a far, far cry from the worst.



What has the TIM done for us though?



1. Believed in Shepard. Believed the Reaper threat. The galactic government is doing **** all about the threat. They've convinced themselves it doesn't exist. It would be sad if they died due to their inaction, but they have all the information, and are refusing to act on it.



2. Provided a state of the art ship, intel, support. Regardless of his other motives, he is working to save the galaxy. Sure, his primary goal is humans, but is that wrong? Who here wouldn't work to save their family before a stranger? This doesn't mean he wants all aliens dead.



3. Provided contacts to the best the galaxy has to offer to combat this threat. Including contacts to non-humans. He supports Shepards decisions in every single case, trusting non-humans in the most important job, ever. He even supports Shepards decision to reactivate a freaking Geth, and allowed it full access to the Normandy. Does this sound like a man who wants to hold the rest of the galaxies species in thrall? He obviously recognizes their strengths.



Sure. He sent Shepard into traps. He had to. Consider the stakes being played for here. Any tip at all that they knew it was a trap could have ruined the whole mission. Shepard was a gigantic investment, and he quite obviously trusts your judgement implicitly. Do you think he would have sent you into harms way with no warning, potentially squandering that investment, if there wasn't a very, very good reason to do so?



He's not a saint. But he's doing the best he can in a bad situation. The stakes are extreme.. If we fail now, who knows how long the cycle will continue? How many thousands more species will be consumed by the reapers? Of course he's going to make some very hard, seemingly cold decisions. The situation doesn't allow for anything else.



Oh, and yeah. Saving the station is a no brainer. Ofc, I'm sure bioware will make it a bad idea in the end for some reason, but remember.. We killed the collector ship with Reaper technology. Thanix cannons anyone?



They know much more about the indoctrination effect now, and can guard against it. The station itself is a treasure trove, and our best hope for the future.

[Ghost_360]

I like The Illusive Man all the way up till the end of the game.



Even when he sent Shepard into a trap at the abandoned Collector ship I still liked him because he believed in Shepard enough to know he would succeed.

[pelhikano]

Question, what happens if you don't install the Thanix cannon? Do you still destroy the Collector ship?

[Delta Green]

I don't trust TIM completely but I'm not going to let personal feelings get in the way of protecting the galaxy and if in time TIM is a threat to the galaxy I'll deal with him.



The fact of the matter is that he was the one brought you back, coulda built a fleet and trained an army but instead he invested in you. He had the utmost faith in you, that counts for something.



His organization is also the only one that is out protecting the human colonies in the terminus systems and the only one trying to hit the collectors.



Cerberus is not above to working with aliens, most of your dirty dozen are made up of em.



TIM is right about the collector base, reverse engineering of Sovereign got us the Thranx Cannon, a collector base could give us something more. Or perhaps it'll end in horrible apocalypse, it's a risk I know but one we have to make.



Remember that a fully shielded reaper can not be penetrated by a dreadnought rail gun (Sovereign's shield was down during the time).

[Caion]

stuchiu wrote...

5) A lot of his experiments have backfired in horrible horrible ways. Rachni queen could have joined Saren and ****ed over the galaxy. Thorian Creeper actually helped Saren move his way towards the Ilos. And I expect that if he got his hands on the Collector base, he would use the tech to build some kind of human/reaper hybrid. And it's probably going to backfire in his face again as the human-reaper hybrid he creates names himself Kefka and destroys the universe as we know it. 

That's actually the premise of the next Mass Effect novel. Cerberus kidnaps Paul Grayson and implants him with Reaper technology in order to study it. I can't wait to see how that will blow up in his face.

Personally, I do not trust TIM for an instant. During the game I saw him as a resource to be used and discarded while keeping a cautious eye on him in the meantime. Someone like TIM would do ANYTHING to advance his own cause, no matter how many innocents must suffer and die for it. I was only too happy to tell him to shove it when I was finally allowed to.

I believe that TIM believes that he is doing the right thing, but his carelessless in regards to his methods will not see a good end to his endeavors. Give TIM too much power and he could potentially become an even greater threat than the Reapers.

[Gill Kaiser]

Caion wrote...

stuchiu wrote...

5) A lot of his experiments have backfired in horrible horrible ways. Rachni queen could have joined Saren and ****ed over the galaxy. Thorian Creeper actually helped Saren move his way towards the Ilos. And I expect that if he got his hands on the Collector base, he would use the tech to build some kind of human/reaper hybrid. And it's probably going to backfire in his face again as the human-reaper hybrid he creates names himself Kefka and destroys the universe as we know it. 

That's actually the premise of the next Mass Effect novel. Cerberus kidnaps Paul Grayson and implants him with Reaper technology in order to study it. I can't wait to see how that will blow up in his face.

Personally, I do not trust TIM for an instant. During the game I saw him as a resource to be used and discarded while keeping a cautious eye on him in the meantime. Someone like TIM would do ANYTHING to advance his own cause, no matter how many innocents must suffer and die for it. I was only too happy to tell him to shove it when I was finally allowed to.

I believe that TIM believes that he is doing the right thing, but his carelessless in regards to his methods will not see a good end to his endeavors. Give TIM too much power and he could potentially become an even greater threat than the Reapers.

Did you do the N7 quest where you end up with sensitive and incriminating information on Cerberus and can decide whether to send it to TIM, send it to the Alliance, or keep it for yourself? I'm wondering if that mission only shows up if you gave Cerberus data to the Shadow Broker in ME1, like I did.

FYI I kept the info for myself. Shepard needs to step up in ME3 and play his own hand, and it never hurts to have an ace in the hole.

[Caion]

Delta Green wrote...

The fact of the matter is that he was the one brought you back, coulda built a fleet and trained an army but instead he invested in you. He had the utmost faith in you, that counts for something.

No, it does not. You are just a tool to him. He resurrected Shepard because he was the right tool for the job. Nothing more.

His organization is also the only one that is out protecting the human colonies in the terminus systems and the only one trying to hit the collectors.

TIM believes in advancing the cause of humanity, so this falls completely within his goals. However, if left unchecked, TIM would end up doing something just as horrific to his own kind as the Collector's did. If he thought he had no other option, he would authorize liquifying humans to create his own Human Reaper, all the while saying that it was the best option and that he had no choice.

Cerberus is not above to working with aliens, most of your dirty dozen are made up of em.

He is prudent enough not to throw away a useful tool just because it's blue, but in the end they are just tools to him. He would screw them over the moment they were no longer useful.

TIM is right about the collector base, reverse engineering of Sovereign got us the Thranx Cannon, a collector base could give us something more. Or perhaps it'll end in horrible apocalypse, it's a risk I know but one we have to make.

There is a difference between reverse-engineering and using a technology that manipulates organic minds and requires the liquifying of living creatures. Nothing good can come out of the collector base.

[newcomplex]

My character hates cerebrus because shes a lone survivor.



Meaning cerebrus killed her entire squadron as a test.

[JamieCOTC]

The best written villains not only think they are right, but sometimes, they ARE right.  That’s why I love TIM so much, that and he’s voiced by Martin Sheen.  Still, make no mistake; TIM is the villain of this story.  Cerberus, it’s just a tool.

Besides, there is this:

Samara: “The Illusive Man thinks he has the wisdom to use Reaper technology. He does not.” 

[Cryo84]

Where is the logic that being pro-human = bad?



Cerberus has the right idea, survive where no one has survived before. But don't just stop the reapers, thrive in spite of them!



You people are nuts.

[Eumerin]

CutterJohn1 wrote...

What has the TIM done for us though?

*snip*

You forgot about the part where he gave you the option to take the 'Sole Survivor' background because he wiped out an Alliance Marine unit with thresher maws (along with the human colony that the marines were investigating because it had been destroyed by the same thresher maws).

The man is totally and completely amoral.  His organization is the same, although some of the members (for instance, most of the crew of the new Normandy) aren't yet in deep enough to realize just how bad it is.

Did you do the N7 quest where you end up with sensitive and incriminating information on Cerberus and can decide whether to send it to TIM, send it to the Alliance, or keep it for yourself? I'm wondering if that mission only shows up if you gave Cerberus data to the Shadow Broker in ME1, like I did.

That quest appears to be independent of whether or not you gave the information to the Shadow Broker.  If there's a payoff from the Shadow Broker's request, I've yet to see it.

[JamieCOTC]

Cryo84 wrote...

Where is the logic that being pro-human = bad?

Cerberus has the right idea, survive where no one has survived before. But don't just stop the reapers, thrive in spite of them!

You people are nuts.

Being pro-human isn't bad.  Being human dominant w/ a maniacal douchebag as the leader = bad. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 05 février 2010 - 12:46 .

[JamieCOTC]

Eumerin wrote...

CutterJohn1 wrote...

What has the TIM done for us though?

*snip*

You forgot about the part where he gave you the option to take the 'Sole Survivor' background because he wiped out an Alliance Marine unit with thresher maws (along with the human colony that the marines were investigating because it had been destroyed by the same thresher maws).

The man is totally and completely amoral.  His organization is the same, although some of the members (for instance, most of the crew of the new Normandy) aren't yet in deep enough to realize just how bad it is.

Did you do the N7 quest where you end up with sensitive and incriminating information on Cerberus and can decide whether to send it to TIM, send it to the Alliance, or keep it for yourself? I'm wondering if that mission only shows up if you gave Cerberus data to the Shadow Broker in ME1, like I did.

That quest appears to be independent of whether or not you gave the information to the Shadow Broker.  If there's a payoff from the Shadow Broker's request, I've yet to see it.

I think this is going to affect ME3 in some way and has no direct pay-off in ME2.

[noobzor99]

After doing the cerberus missions in ME1, the group is irredeemable. and I'm a sole survivor.

[Urazz]

Pretty much the only part of Cerberus I trusted was the crew on the Normandy, Jacob, and Miranda. The Illusive I was distrustful of but was starting to trust him and then his wanting to preserve the Collector base reminded me why I hated Cerberus in ME1. Basically the Illusive man is Cerberus since he is the only one in charge.

[Caz Neerg]

MBirkhofer wrote...

OP, did you actually play ME1?
If all you play is ME2, it's very possible to come to the conclusion the Illusive man has the right idea.
But in 1, its pretty clear they are recklessly endangering lives. As well as clearly have no moral compass in achieving their goals.
Whats the point of saving lives, if you have to murder millions to do it?
They also loose control of many of their experiments in 1. Unleashing rabid Rachni and Thorian are very much just as great a threat.
Think about the Geth/Quarians. Cerberus are playing with dangerous things trying to use them as weapons. Weapons that could very easily turn on their masters. And without any real oversight from governments or protection agency.

When do they ever *recklessly* endanger lives?  They engaged in controlled experiments on remote backwater worlds.  As for a moral compass, when you are in a fight for the survival of life itself, not having one is a good thing.  What is the point of being "Right" if it results in everyone being dead?

As for the poster suggesting that the "Right" choice would have been to give the collector base to the Council, huh?  They spent the entire first game mocking and ignoring you, and then proceed to do the same thing in the second.  If you gave them the base, they would probably put it in the care of "top men" (of the Raiders of the Lost Ark stick it in a warehouse and forget about it variety).  The Council has proven that they are not worthy of having any say in the war against the Reapers, and aren't qualified to be in charge of Citadel Trash Collection, let alone Galactic Government.

Even if you hate everything about Cerberus from ME1, they are still the *only* group willing to do what it takes to ensure the survival of civilization, and that alone makes the Illusive man more qualified to be in charge than any member of the Council or Alliance.

[Sturmwulfe]

atheelogos wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...
and the whole idea of using Reaper technology and think it won't affect or even indoctrinate you is wishful thinking at best. I'd rather not have to deal with more Husks, thanks.

I swear no one knows about the new guns the Normandy has. And no one knows where they came from.

I read the description of the Thanix cannon, and yes, they figured out by studying the remains of Sovergn, or rather, the tiny bits and pieces that was left of it, and from first hand experience in the Battle of the Citadel, that Sovergn's weapons were basically super-rail guns instead of lasers. The guns were designed off of that principle, not using the actual weapons off of Sovergn. Not unsimilar to how in Halo the Spartan overshields were designed after the Jackal's energy shields by reverse engineering. Afterall, we saw what kind of hell even small bits of Reaper technology can do, such as the IFF, when it was installed onto the Normandy.

So you're saying that leaving an entire base of still functional Reaper technology that only has the living Collectors purged from it isn't going to do anything along the lines of what happened on the dead Reaper where Shepard obtained the IFF? I also doubt TIM wouldn't have thought he could control what he found in that base.

[Eumerin]

Caz Neerg wrote...

When do they ever *recklessly* endanger lives?  They engaged in controlled experiments on remote backwater worlds.  As for a moral compass, when you are in a fight for the survival of life itself, not having one is a good thing.  What is the point of being "Right" if it results in everyone being dead?

Yes, murdering every man, woman, and child in the colony of Akuze with thresher maws was okay because it was a controlled experiment.

You need to check your moral compass.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Caz Neerg wrote...

When do they ever *recklessly* endanger lives?  They engaged in controlled experiments on remote backwater worlds.  As for a moral compass, when you are in a fight for the survival of life itself, not having one is a good thing.  What is the point of being "Right" if it results in everyone being dead?

As for the poster suggesting that the "Right" choice would have been to give the collector base to the Council, huh?  They spent the entire first game mocking and ignoring you, and then proceed to do the same thing in the second.  If you gave them the base, they would probably put it in the care of "top men" (of the Raiders of the Lost Ark stick it in a warehouse and forget about it variety).  The Council has proven that they are not worthy of having any say in the war against the Reapers, and aren't qualified to be in charge of Citadel Trash Collection, let alone Galactic Government.

Even if you hate everything about Cerberus from ME1, they are still the *only* group willing to do what it takes to ensure the survival of civilization, and that alone makes the Illusive man more qualified to be in charge than any member of the Council or Alliance.

This.

I've given up on reasoning with people about Cerberus. I'll just encourage those who are not so naive that would want the galaxy destroyed due to misguided idealism.

[Caz Neerg]

Eumerin wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

When do they ever *recklessly* endanger lives?  They engaged in controlled experiments on remote backwater worlds.  As for a moral compass, when you are in a fight for the survival of life itself, not having one is a good thing.  What is the point of being "Right" if it results in everyone being dead?

Yes, murdering every man, woman, and child in the colony of Akuze with thresher maws was okay because it was a controlled experiment.

You need to check your moral compass.

There is no evidence that Cerberus had anything to do with the disappearance/death of the colonists.  We only know that they set the the Thresher Maws on the Alliance squad that came to investigate.  If Cerberus had set the Threshers on the colonists, they wouldn't have needed the Marines.  Do we even know for sure that there really were colonists, and not just a Cerberus front set up to make the distress call convincing?

[Statulos]

The Illusive man is basicaly wrong in almost everything and it´s weird that so many different people tells you why with almost the same words over and over.



Mordin clearly points out that Krogans are ultra-destructive because they mastered the atom whitout the social and cultural advances to actually understand what that could lead to. On the other hand, Mordin is also very right when he considers that technology whitout culture is means to tragic fauilure.



But more interestingly, Legion tell you that basicaly reapers should be sent to hell since they´re taking out the real freedom of the cultures in the galaxy forcing them to evolve in a particular path.



Also Mordin and Samara state that humans are not like the rest of the species, they are far more varied and random.

The Illusive Man is a guy so lost in his absolute conception of what to be human is that he´s basicaly neglecting the biggest capacity of mankind: variability.

[atheelogos]

Default137 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...cension_Project

Cerberus was still on the Alliances payroll when those EeZo ships got mysteriously destroyed by Cerberus operatives over planets, in an effort to increase the amount of biotics in the Alliance, it also happened to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people, something which any scientist of the time could have told you would have happened.

Go Alliance!

Oh, there is also the bit where the Alliance councilor tried to create an army of AI controlled machines to "help" the Citadel, but when Anderson and Saren went in to find out what was actually going on, it turned out the Alliance was building them in the hopes they could use them against the Council.

Yeah, the Alliance is just as bad as Cerberus, they are just better then hiding it, if you don't care enough to look, both sides want the exact same thing, and are going to do whatever it takes to reach that goal, one side is just better at lying to Shepard then the other side is, has alot better politicians, and has alot more unlucky soldiers that you have to rescue, doesn't make them the Paragons of Virtue.

I don't like TIM, but his organization gets the job done, and will most likely continue to get the job done in ME3, meanwhile, the Alliance will have a pole so far shoved up its ass that the Reapers will be knocking on the front door of the Citadel before they finally come to their senses, and by that time, billions if not trillions of people would have died to their red tape bull****, if I have to kill fifty people to make sure several bazillion survive a purge, I'll do it gladly, even if my new employer doesn't like aliens, neither did my old employers, they just were more willing to take a second plate.

You speak the truth!!!!!

[Chrisimo79]

Arryngow wrote...

F3ralCr wrote...

The way I see it Cerberus works with a large network of completely autonomous proects with their individual leads and command structures. I don't think you can blame the Illusive Man for everything.

For instance: when the Illusive Man finds out what's going on with Jack and the other kids he orders the immediate shut-down of the project. Doesn't seem all that evil to me.

Go read Ascension. TIM knows. He was fully aware of Cerebrus' experiments on children. And he's good at emotionally manipulating the people under him with his "omigosh, is that really what's going on?? I had no idea!!" routine. He's a GREAT actor.

And consider this: TIM sends you onto a derelict Collector ship, knowing full well it's a trap. He knows exactly what you're walking into, but acts all innocent, until you find out and confront him. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ...

Cerebrus doesn't care about human dominance. Cerebrus cares about Cerebrus dominance.

He doesn't really fool you..he is pretty open about his targets.