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A Story Critique Of ME2, From A Writer's Perspective


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#26
pelhikano

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mjack234 wrote...

Where does this fit into the over-all picture of an oncoming Reaper invasion?  Why humans?  Why a human Reaper?  What was its purpose?  What was the threat the Collectors and the Human Reaper posed to the galaxy?


Actually I'm in a way glad this wasn't spelled out so clearly. As I said, ME1 felt slightly "trite" to me because everything was explained in detail, in big evil speeches by the main bad guy no less. Which is great for the first part of the trilogy since otherwise you have no clue what is going on at all, but I don't mind the mystery and shadiness of ME2 either. It's not "bad"/"weak" writing I think, just "different" writing.

Half the fun of this new game is making up your own story about what exactly is going on. I have no way of knowing if any of the following is true, but from what I gathered what happened is this: We only gathered from ME1 that the way out of Dark Space is blocked to the Reapers, and they are desperately trying to get back because the organics are ripe for reaping. They would have been back already, but the Protheans screwed up their plans. The Reaper vanguard, Sovereign, tried to use Saren as a stooge to open the way by going into the Citadel and doing it manually, but that didn't work. And to add insult to injury, the pesky meatsacks KILLED HIM as well! This will not stand!

The Reapers want nothing more than to wipe out these little bugs, but unfortunately there are no more Reapers in the galactic center to take over the Citadel. The heretic geth are numerous, but not enough to take over the Citadel against the combined sentient fleets. The Collectors, their as of the time of ME1 not yet revealed slaves, are strong too but not quite strong enough either, and there's only one station full of them apparently. But, the reason the sentient fleets could even hurt that one Reaper the last time was because he had invested all his power into remote-controlling Robo-Saren, which failed. Without that little fluke, Nazara/Sovereign and his Geth fleet would have blasted the entire fleet into pieces.

So my impression is that the Collectors were making a new Reaper to be the leader for the next assault on the Citadel. They were making it human based because the humans were so instrumental in the downfall of the last Reaper, and they have shown themselves incredibly resourceful for such a "young" race, a quality that would have been transferred into this new Reaper through the essence of all those liquified people.

#27
Garuda One

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pelhikano wrote...

mjack234 wrote...

Where does this fit into the over-all picture of an oncoming Reaper invasion?  Why humans?  Why a human Reaper?  What was its purpose?  What was the threat the Collectors and the Human Reaper posed to the galaxy?


Actually I'm in a way glad this wasn't spelled out so clearly. As I said, ME1 felt slightly "trite" to me because everything was explained in detail, in big evil speeches by the main bad guy no less. Which is great for the first part of the trilogy since otherwise you have no clue what is going on at all, but I don't mind the mystery and shadiness of ME2 either. It's not "bad"/"weak" writing I think, just "different" writing.

Half the fun of this new game is making up your own story about what exactly is going on. I have no way of knowing if any of the following is true, but from what I gathered what happened is this: We only gathered from ME1 that the way out of Dark Space is blocked to the Reapers, and they are desperately trying to get back because the organics are ripe for reaping. They would have been back already, but the Protheans screwed up their plans. The Reaper vanguard, Sovereign, tried to use Saren as a stooge to open the way by going into the Citadel and doing it manually, but that didn't work. And to add insult to injury, the pesky meatsacks KILLED HIM as well! This will not stand!

The Reapers want nothing more than to wipe out these little bugs, but unfortunately there are no more Reapers in the galactic center to take over the Citadel. The heretic geth are numerous, but not enough to take over the Citadel against the combined sentient fleets. The Collectors, their as of the time of ME1 not yet revealed slaves, are strong too but not quite strong enough either, and there's only one station full of them apparently. But, the reason the sentient fleets could even hurt that one Reaper the last time was because he had invested all his power into remote-controlling Robo-Saren, which failed. Without that little fluke, Nazara/Sovereign and his Geth fleet would have blasted the entire fleet into pieces.

So my impression is that the Collectors were making a new Reaper to be the leader for the next assault on the Citadel. They were making it human based because the humans were so instrumental in the downfall of the last Reaper, and they have shown themselves incredibly resourceful for such a "young" race, a quality that would have been transferred into this new Reaper through the essence of all those liquified people.


Not to mention Humans are easy to modifiy, stated by Mordin. The Protheans couldn't be changed without cybernetics.

#28
mjack234

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Methodjew wrote...

Why do you expect to be given the Reapers' motivations beyond what we were given in ME1? Sovereign specifically states that organics would not be able to understand their motivations, and I think that's perfectly acceptable. When you talk with Legion, he explains the difference between the heretics and geth was simply math. 2

So why not speculate that the Reapers were trying to understand humanity, the race that defeated Sovereign, by creating a bridge between the two species? And how in the hell is the fact that dozens of human colonies going missing not enough of a motivation? I understand, sure, the galaxy is not specifically in danger at the moment, but the end of ME1 made it pretty clear the Reapers were coming. So if the missing colonies were linked to Reapers--something made clear very early on--why wouldn't you have the same sense of urgency that you did with Saren/Sovereign?

So you say the first had memorable moments with rachni, Citadel invasion, and "a" solution to the genophage. The first, if you let the queen go, had no real resolution. Well, let's see what ME2 had to counter those three. Geth/Quarian storylines, a resurgence of Krogan leadership, and a clear warning of what the galaxy had in store for it with the Collectors=Protheans. You might not like that ME2's main purpose was to lay the groundwork for the third game, but that's inevitably what every sequel in a trilogy does. It expands the universe/people, adds new experiences, and sets up for the grand finale.

Look at ESB: at the end you have numerous loose ends, no real idea of success at any real point (Luke fails his training, loses to Vader, Solo frozen, Rebels retreating...etc), and you're left wondering how the Rebels will win. At the very least, ME2 gave you hope by defeating at least one enemy. But ESB, largely considered the best of the SW trilogy, puts forth more questions and quandaries than it solves. This only makes the third act even better when we see everything fall into place. I really don't know what y'all expected...would you not complain if we wound up facing another Sovereign? Or, be really pissed off if the final space fight was again a fleet vs...two Sovereigns?


Its not that there are loose ends to be tied up.  I'm fine with that.  I don't mind mysteries and unanswered questions.  I've been a fan of LOST for 6 years now, so that proves I don't mind not knowing what the hell is going on, lol.  But I do want a sense a purpose and rising action in a story.  I think I made it pretty clear that I don't think ME2 has a bad story, just that it could have been much, much better had the plot been clearer and better integrated with your quests.

The examples I gave with ME1, referring the the rachni and the genophage, etc., meant that those missions had far reaching ramifications had Saren succeeded with them.  You needed to stop his plans and prevent him from destroying the galaxy.  ME2's story with the Collectors seems small in comparison.

I'm not sure if having 2 reapers would have been a good ending fight.  I'd say that Omega 4 was so mysterious, the writers would have had lots of room to create interesting plot twists if they so chose.  What if Shepherd had shown up and found out the Collectors had opened another door to let the Reapers through, and before they could destroy the base, some Reapers made it to the Citadel and destroyed it, leaving the galaxy without a central government to rally the forces for the next Reaper invasion?  What if Shepherd has succeeded in destroying the Collector base but was now trapped in Omega-4 with knowledge vital to the survival of the universe?

I don't want to get speculative because I'm not writing these games and I don't want to delve into fan fiction.  I'm just saying there's lots of possibilities from a story standpoint that could have been much stronger from a thematic perspective than what was used in ME2.  ME1 is a textbook example of great epic storytelling.  I felt ME2 took a step backwards.  Just my opinion.

And for anyone who's wondering, I've written some screenplays and novels, and directed a movie.  Not saying I'm the greatest storyteller in the world, just saying that from a writing standpoint, these are my issues with the game's storyline.

#29
Doug84

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xMister Vx wrote...

I don't see how you could say that "we never really understand what the Collector's motivation is" - it's the whole point of the story. Yes, there is less apparent urgency for the player, but if you think from an in-game perspective, the threat strikes home. They're taking people, and more have died than during the entire story of ME1.

The only thing I agree with is that a villain always makes the game better, and Saren was quite memorable, but the nature of the enemy makes it apparent that there can't be a single villain. Quite effective in its own way.

I'm sure many people are viewing ME1 through rosy glasses - it's a natural effect - but I would like to remind you that at the time reviewers were complaining, for example, about the fact that the main villain disappears for almost the entire game, then the pacing of the story being broken by tedious MAKO sorties, and the storyline quests not being too elaborate.

In my opinion the only part of ME1 that is on par with ME2 is the very end, Virmire, not even Ilos - it's just a corridor, and the Citadel. Yes, that felt epic. But this is the middle of the story, they can't have a conclusion that is somehow more epic than the first one.

But then again, for me the main plot doesn't matter that much, as I already said somewhere else.


I agree fully with this. Its like saying "We don't know what the collectors motivation" and then missing out "Until we see the F***ING HUGE HUMAN-REAPER with all the human juice going into it."

Rosy glasses over ME1 was always going to happen, sadly.

As for a villain, you could call the Collector-General/Harbinger it, and also TIM was something of a potential danger all by himself.

#30
Higgles

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mjack234 wrote...

Capone666 wrote...

The collector threat never seems urgent?
From the opening narrative there is a complete explanation of the urgency of the mission. Starting at Freedoms progress, where they are identified as faceless and mysterious entities to the culmination at Horizon when a face is truly given to this ominous evil.


Here's what I mean when I was talking about the urgency...

It's clearly set up that humans are disappearing from across the galaxy and no one cares, yet.  That's clearly set up, and what the collectors are doing is horrible.  But what's at stake?  If they were going to destroy all of humanity, okay, I get that.  But in ME1, you always had some problem manifesting as an outgrowth to Saren's plan - the return of the arachni, the elimination of the genophage with an unstoppable krogen army, the invasion of the Citadel, etc.  Here, you have one fight in a colony that is being harvested, and that's it.

Where does this fit into the over-all picture of an oncoming Reaper invasion?  Why humans?  Why a human Reaper?  What was its purpose?  What was the threat the Collectors and the Human Reaper posed to the galaxy?

I'm not saying ME2 was bad.  I'm just saying the story isn't very clear.


It's hinted at pretty strongly in both games that humans are, for some reason, "special."  The fact that the reapers seem to know this for a fact is meant to prove it to us.  No, we don't know why exactly, but I think it's fair to say that ME3 will explore that mystery.  Yes, it's a bit cheesy, but you're asking why they need humans, why they wanted a human reaper, and that's your answer.  No specifics yet, but I felt that fact was made pretty clear.

As for the threat, the threat is the loss of life.  Why does the entire galaxy have to be immediately at threat?  For the second time in two years?  Just harvesting humans, the Collectors have killed more people than Saren ever did.  Also, Mordin mentions at one point that they're likely planning on heading right for Earth.  It's made pretty clear that the stakes are genocide.  Additionally, since you know that the reapers are behind it all, you're still very aware that the entire galaxy is at risk, even if everyone else isn't.

I agree with a lot of your points as far as character development and some of the little details.  For example, if reapers take the form of the race whose genetic material was used to create them, then why do ALL the other reapers look like space squids?  Shouldn't they be in all kinds of weird shapes and sizes?

But I think you're asking a lot of questions that were deliberately left for the final game.  It's a trilogy, you know.

EDIT: Also, I gotta disagree with what you're saying about Saren.  I would have agreed up until the end of Virmire.  I was interested in Saren's motivations, it was one of many driving forces in the narrative for me, but then we find out he has no motivation.  He's been brainwashed.  He talks a lot about helping the reapers so they'll help us, or spare us, or whatever, but we're reminded a few times that that's how reaper brainwashing works; they make you think you have a motivation.

I'm not trying to say that ME2 had a really amazing story compared to ME1.  But I don't think ME1 had an amazing story, either.  They're both entertaining action/space operas and I've enjoyed the ride, they've explored some interesting themes and ideas, and their mythology/universe is impressively robust and detailed... but we're not talking about timeless fiction here.

Modifié par Higgles, 04 février 2010 - 08:26 .


#31
mjack234

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Doug84 wrote...

I agree fully with this. Its like saying "We don't know what the collectors motivation" and then missing out "Until we see the F***ING HUGE HUMAN-REAPER with all the human juice going into it."

Rosy glasses over ME1 was always going to happen, sadly.

As for a villain, you could call the Collector-General/Harbinger it, and also TIM was something of a potential danger all by himself.


Yes, but why were they building a human reaper?  What was its purpose?  What was the Collector's end game?  That's the central motivation for them harvesting human colonies, right?  So what impact does a human reaper have if its unleashed?  i would have liked to have known what was at stake.

In ME1, by the time we got to the citadel for the final battle, we knew what was at stake.  That made the final showdown so tense and exhillerating.  In this game, we get to the reaper base, and only at the end do we see what they're doing, and even then, its not fully explained why they are doing it.  I don't mind being in the dark up to a certain point, but I need the motivations to be clear.

As for the nemesis, yes, the Illusive Man could be considered the villain in the story, but he's not a physical threat to Shepherd, nor does he seem to be as big of a threat as the Reapers are.  He may be a "Professor Moriarty" type character, but he's no Saren.  And the Collector General had no real personality, nor did he ever really interact with Shepherd.  in fact, he was a bit of a non-entity throughout the game other than to make one type of collector tougher to kill.

#32
Doug84

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Higgles wrote...

It's hinted at pretty strongly in both games that humans are, for some reason, "special."  The fact that the reapers seem to know this for a fact is meant to prove it to us.  No, we don't know why exactly, but I think it's fair to say that ME3 will explore that mystery.  Yes, it's a bit cheesy, but you're asking why they need humans, why they wanted a human reaper, and that's your answer.  No specifics yet, but I felt that fact was made pretty clear.


Agreed - the only 2 things I can think of are a) Humanity seems to have made contact with the Citadel species much earlier than other species have in term of time from discovering E-Zero, and B) it seems as if the Protheans where interfering with humanity at some point.

The early contact explains the genetic diversity - after all, we've only just started with global transport; genetic uniformity hasn't had a chance to be formed yet. Its actually stated in one of the books - the first one I think.

#33
Doug84

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mjack234 wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

I agree fully with this. Its like saying "We don't know what the collectors motivation" and then missing out "Until we see the F***ING HUGE HUMAN-REAPER with all the human juice going into it."

Rosy glasses over ME1 was always going to happen, sadly.

As for a villain, you could call the Collector-General/Harbinger it, and also TIM was something of a potential danger all by himself.


Yes, but why were they building a human reaper?  What was its purpose?  What was the Collector's end game?  That's the central motivation for them harvesting human colonies, right?  So what impact does a human reaper have if its unleashed?  i would have liked to have known what was at stake.


Why are the Reapers trying to wipe out all organic life? Why not just stay in the Galaxy and wipe out life on every world at the single-cell stage? If you're going to say everything was clear in ME1, you have to explain those points too. But as for the Human Reaper, I think it was clear humanity had passed some sort of test for "Ascention" to Reaperhood, given Harbinger was always going on about it, and stated clearly, "We are your salvation through destruction". Probably because Shepard impressed the Reapers by killing Soverign.

In ME1, by the time we got to the citadel for the final battle, we knew what was at stake.  That made the final showdown so tense and exhillerating.  In this game, we get to the reaper base, and only at the end do we see what they're doing, and even then, its not fully explained why they are doing it.  I don't mind being in the dark up to a certain point, but I need the motivations to be clear.

Well, we knew every human colony in the Terminus systems, and probably Earth itself was at risk of being taken away by the Collectors for whatever they where upto.

As for the nemesis, yes, the Illusive Man could be considered the villain in the story, but he's not a physical threat to Shepherd, nor does he seem to be as big of a threat as the Reapers are.  He may be a "Professor Moriarty" type character, but he's no Saren.  And the Collector General had no real personality, nor did he ever really interact with Shepherd.  in fact, he was a bit of a non-entity throughout the game other than to make one type of collector tougher to kill.


Fair enough - though the Collector General was the only face of the Collectors we had. Which was the point really - the Collectors where just the tools of the Reapers, like what Saren would have become with enough time.

#34
HeyUder

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The revelation of a "human reaper" seemed lackluster to me as well. The character development was very well done, but the main story could have been better. I wish that the Protheans were simply JUST the collectors, and not "EVIL" Protheans. It would have turned things around about the Protheans and introduced another mystery to the game.



What's the big deal about a human reaper? It would have just been one of many (as seen in the final shot), because we were not given any reason to think it would be one of the most important Reapers out there. It's "just" a Reaper. However, I will say that the thing that really pulled Mass Effect 2's story for me was the Illusive Man and Cerberus.

#35
kraidy1117

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I am a writer and I have have to disaggre with you on this. For one scanining planets was quick and easy. I scaned a planet in under a minute and the planet was bare. Also how did you get bored in ME2? Everything from the action, to the places to the characters where alot more intresting then it was in ME.

In ME the places where realy dead. There was some talking and stuff, but realy dead. In ME2 the world is alive. People are walking, dancing, conversations and even drinking. I just don't see how you could have gotten bored in ME2 but not in ME.

As for the story, as a writer I know the trilogy rules. ME2 followed the rule for part 2 and IMO it is the best game Bioware has made. The main story while might not have been that original was still well done. There was alot of good twist and the big twist reminded me when Darth Vadar told Luke he was his father. ME2 is the empire strikes back of video games. Also the thing that ME failed at and what ME2 did fantastic was making it emotional(spelling?) When Miranda had tears, my eyes got watery. When I was doing the sucide mission I was sweating because of fear someone would die. The main story was good, but what made the game the best was it's characters.

That's my thought on it, though I still can't se how you found ME2 boring.

#36
HeyUder

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pelhikano wrote...

mjack234 wrote...

Where does this fit into the over-all picture of an oncoming Reaper invasion?  Why humans?  Why a human Reaper?  What was its purpose?  What was the threat the Collectors and the Human Reaper posed to the galaxy?


So my impression is that the Collectors were making a new Reaper to be the leader for the next assault on the Citadel. They were making it human based because the humans were so instrumental in the downfall of the last Reaper, and they have shown themselves incredibly resourceful for such a "young" race, a quality that would have been transferred into this new Reaper through the essence of all those liquified people.

I never thought of that, wow. I neglected the fact that an actual Reaper was being constructed inside of the Milky Way rather than in Dark Space. Nice analysis!

#37
mjack234

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Higgles wrote...

It's hinted at pretty strongly in both games that humans are, for some reason, "special."  The fact that the reapers seem to know this for a fact is meant to prove it to us.  No, we don't know why exactly, but I think it's fair to say that ME3 will explore that mystery.  Yes, it's a bit cheesy, but you're asking why they need humans, why they wanted a human reaper, and that's your answer.  No specifics yet, but I felt that fact was made pretty clear.


Speaking from a structural standpoint, you need to resolve the main story within each "chapter" if you will.  Leaving some questions unanswered for ME3 is fine, but you need to make the plot threads of ME2 very clear at the end.  Had it been revealed that a human reaper was some evolutionary weapon that could usher in the next Reaper invasion, okay, that would be fine.  But as it stands, I fail to see how it impacted the over-all Mass Effect universe.  I'm sure it does, it was just not made clear within the confines of the story.

As for the threat, the threat is the loss of life.  Why does the entire galaxy have to be immediately at threat?  For the second time in two years?  Just harvesting humans, the Collectors have killed more people than Saren ever did.  Also, Mordin mentions at one point that they're likely planning on heading right for Earth.  It's made pretty clear that the stakes are genocide.  Additionally, since you know that the reapers are behind it all, you're still very aware that the entire galaxy is at risk, even if everyone else isn't.


I get that, and I know that Earth was a target because of that cutscene.  But here's the thing... its a different climax when you find out that Earth WILL be a target, than if the Human Reaper is complete, and is currently heading to Earth to destroy all of humanity.

This is what I'm talking about.  The difference between a ho-hum fight with a giant robot in a remote space station somewhere, and a battle to save planet Earth with the fate of the galaxy hanging in the balance.  There was nothing at stake in the Collector base during your battle.  No ticking clock.  No major ethical choice like choosing to save or abandon the council.  Just a fight with a giant robot and deciding whether or not to destroy a space station after the threat is over.  Ho-hum.

But I think you're asking a lot of questions that were deliberately left for the final game.  It's a trilogy, you know.


There are lots of trilogies who's second acts are great stories that have their own story arc while setting up the final chapter.  Just because it's act 2 doesn't mean it's okay for it to be mediocre or not make sense.  Every story has to be self contained, even if it's part of a larger story.  Though ME2 was self contained, it did not pay off from a story standpoint as strong as ME1 did.

ME1 may be sorta cookie-cutter space opera fare, but it was well structured, compelling, and exhilerating.  ME2 wasn't structured as well, and suffered because of it.  Its a good game, but a mediocre story.

#38
xMister Vx

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mjack234 wrote...

You're right, it IS the whole point of the story, which is why it irks me that it was never made clear.  Can you explain to me what their motivation is?  I get that the threat is humans are disappearing, but that's a much smaller threat than all life in the galaxy being wiped out, which was the threat from the first game.  But even so, why did they need all those humans?  What was the point of the human reaper?

The Reaper Harbinger controls the Collectors/Protheans - they have no motivation to speak of, being meat puppets. How they would use the "human reaper" isn't explained, yes. While it's a pity, I doubt Shepard conveniently found "Twenty steps to conquering the galaxy" by H.R.Binger to explain his methods.
About the threat: as I already pointed out, the thing that should strike the player is not that the whole galaxy is at stake. That's pretty hard to imagine for anyone, including Shepard. It's that humans are getting abducted by the tens of thousands. It's just another approach, and it's supposed to feel more urgent, if anything.

From a writer's perspective, a faceless villain always needs a character to embody it so the emotional pull of the story can take hold.  In Star Wars, you have Darth Vader.  In Lord of The Rings, you have Gollum.  You need a nemesis to humanize the enemy.  It just makes the story more powerful.

From a reader's perspective, I wouldn't always agree with that. A faceless menace works just as well, if the reader has enough imagination to see the threat through the eyes of the characters - if you're about to be crushed by a tank, you don't need to see the driver to feel the horror at your fate. In fact, if you don't the horror is amplified, because you don't have anything familiar to direct your fear and anger to. Though of course I agree that in most cases it does add a lot.

And the MAKO sorties and the planet scanning are equal in my opinion, lol.

Personally I liked that feeling of exploration I got from it. No other game managed to convey that kind of feeling, and some of the views were beautiful.

I think from a gameplay standpoint, ME2 is fantastic.  But from a story standpoint, which you do not seem to care about, it is seriously lacking.  ME1's story, in comparison, was amazing.

Let me clarify this... I think combat is fun, but mechanics are not what makes RPGs enjoyable for me. I can get past clunky interfaces and dreadful combat (I'm looking at you, Jade Empire).  I didn't say I didn't care about the story - I just said "main plot". Two quite different things, in an RPG (main plot = main quest basically). I'm not talking about books, once again - another medium, other rules. It's the world that really matters. The locations, the atmosphere, the characters, and my character's interaction with it all. A good main plot provides structure and drive, of course, and it can get bonus points for being epic (here I agree that ME1 does more than ME2 - but only on the final stretch), but it is only that. Yes, you can do an RPG that is basically story-driven, and in that case for me the role-playing value goes down.
I'm also puzzled by the adoration of the story of ME1 (especially since I remember people complaining about it on forums). It really is nothing we haven't seen before, - it's well-executed, yes, but that's it. The introduction to this new world (and to the metaplot) is what matters in the first game.

#39
Higgles

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My biggest issue with ME2 is the character development. It's very good up to a point; their recruitment, their personal missions, and their dialogues with Shepard all flesh them out and allow them to develop in really diverse ways.



But did anyone else just feel odd about the fact that your crew very rarely interact with each other? They barely acknowledge each other's existence.

#40
AtreiyaN7

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Ahem, didn't EDI/Shepard/someone in the group (can't remember exactly who it was) postulate that the Collectors might have tried to strike Earth itself? That seems like a major concern to me. I think it came up after speculation about the number of humans required to finish the human Reaper. If I remember correctly, this was late in the game, and I can understand wanting explanations sooner, but the Collectors are supposed to be mysterious and are supposed to remain something of an unknown/faceless/looming threat until later. You can't exactly go up to one and chat with it either. The true answers are in the base itself, and in ME1, you don't get any real answers until you hit Virmire (edit: let me amend that to a direction conversation with Sovereign instead). Meanwhile, you have to at least try to stop their strikes against human colonies, find out what little you can and research any tech you find, and your only chance is the limited intelligence you receive from the Illusive Man.

Why were the Reapers interested in Shepard? I think it's safe to say that in ME1, Shepard did the impossible and destroyed one of their kind. No one in the history of the Reapers' existence managed that as far as I know; therefore, I imagine the Reapers would be highly interested in studying Shepard - live or dead. The Reapers also use the DNA of a chosen species for reproduction if they're compatible and worthy (in the Reapers' eyes), but not every race is genetically compatible apparently (vis a vis the Protheans). Through the Collectors, the Reapers seemed to be researching human compatibility, especially with their experiments in fusing humans with Reaper tech to form husks, scions, praetors, etc.( Edit 2:  they're especially interested in us because of our apparently high level of genetic diversity - believe Mordin says something about it).

Throughout history (at least current ME history), the Collectors have made periodic appearances and traded tech for subjects with genetic anomalies or unique genetic mutations, etc. in order to study them, but taking entire human colonies is pretty alarming (if you're human). If it doesn't seem urgent to the rest of the galaxy, that's because the other Council races don't like us terribly much. The Council still flat-out refuses to acknowledge that a Reaper threat exists, and regardless of the sacrifices made by humanity during the Battle of the Citadel, a lot of aliens resent humanity, especially after we ended up with a seat on the Council. They just don't care what happens to us.

Regarding the Reaper appearance - as a number of people have reasonably suggested, their outward appearance is probably some kind of shell, and the human Reaper would probably have had that superstructure built around it. That seems logical and explains the identical appearances, but who knows.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 04 février 2010 - 08:50 .


#41
Doug84

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xMister Vx wrote...

 I doubt Shepard conveniently found "Twenty steps to conquering the galaxy" by H.R.Binger to explain his methods.


It would be INCREDITABLY funny if they did though :D

#42
pelhikano

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Higgles wrote...

But did anyone else just feel odd about the fact that your crew very rarely interact with each other? They barely acknowledge each other's existence.


Yes, that's definitely lacking. My impression is that they spoke a lot more about each other in ME1.

#43
kraidy1117

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Am I the only one who use's there brain? You need to think! Bioware gives you alot of information, you need to put it together. The reason why the reapers are making a human-reaper is because the reapers have found the next race that is powerful. EDI confirms this when you find out what the collectors are. They failed to make a reaper, so the reapers used them as slaves until they find the next race.



Humans are the most diverse race in the galaxy. Humans lost less solders in the first contact war compared to the Turriens. They have one of the best fleets in the galaxy and have the best battle plans. Also it was humans, not Asari, not Turriens or anything else, it was humans who killed a reaper, more importantly it was Shepard. When you battle Harbinger abd listen it makes sence and it also hints why the Collectors wanted Shepards body. He was most likely going to be the main program for the human-reaper, as we find out from Legion a reaper has many minds and a main one.




#44
mjack234

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kraidy1117 wrote...

I am a writer and I have have to disaggre with you on this. For one scanining planets was quick and easy. I scaned a planet in under a minute and the planet was bare. Also how did you get bored in ME2? Everything from the action, to the places to the characters where alot more intresting then it was in ME.

In ME the places where realy dead. There was some talking and stuff, but realy dead. In ME2 the world is alive. People are walking, dancing, conversations and even drinking. I just don't see how you could have gotten bored in ME2 but not in ME.

As for the story, as a writer I know the trilogy rules. ME2 followed the rule for part 2 and IMO it is the best game Bioware has made. The main story while might not have been that original was still well done. There was alot of good twist and the big twist reminded me when Darth Vadar told Luke he was his father. ME2 is the empire strikes back of video games. Also the thing that ME failed at and what ME2 did fantastic was making it emotional(spelling?) When Miranda had tears, my eyes got watery. When I was doing the sucide mission I was sweating because of fear someone would die. The main story was good, but what made the game the best was it's characters.

That's my thought on it, though I still can't se how you found ME2 boring.



I didn't find ME2 boring.  But after yet another run-and-gun loyalty mission 25+ hours into the game, I started getting bored.  Things picked up after the Loyalty quests were done and I jumped to Omega-4.  As I've said, ME2 is a good game.

But as a writer, you should know that the second act of a story is about a reversal.  This is usually when the opposing force (villain) gains an advantage or the hero is thrown into crisis.  How did ME2 accomplish this?  Sure, at the end we see the army of Reapers heading towards the galaxy from dark space, but within the confines of Shepherd's narrative, nothing really happened.  He was recruited for a suicide mission, and he pulled it off.  He was not beaten.  He received no real revelation of what is to come.  The Reapers gained no real upper hand.  There is no dramatic tension here.  Had Shepherd had to knowingly sacrifice his team, or even himself, that would have been something.  How cool would it have been had Shepherd died at the end, and his team knows he's the only one who can stop the oncoming reaper threat?  I'm just saying, there was no real reversal here.

I'm not saying that the individual stories of your team aren't good.  i thought each one was well told.  But at the expense of an over-all plot.  Empire Strikes Back did a great job of weaving these character moments into a story of how the Empire was crushing the Rebellion and how the Dark Side could gain dominance.  Every side story in ME2 was disjointed and separate from the main threat of the Reapers and the Collectors.

#45
ZennExile

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mjack234 wrote...

 After playing all the way through Mass Effect 2, I figured I'd share my opinion with the masses (not that any of you really care, but what the hey? I got some free time.  :-) )

First of all, I was a ginormous fan of Mass Effect 1.  It's my favorite XBox game of all time.  I'm a casual gamer because of my job, but when I popped the first Mass Effect into my XBox, I spent an entire three day weekend doing nothing but play that game until I beat it.  I was obsessed with it, and engrossed in the story.  In fact, the final battle with Saren and Sovreign sent chills up my spine, and I felt like I was in my very own space opera.  It was truly a magical experience.

I did have a few gripes with ME1 that I think everyone else had.  The Inventory system and the Mako missions drove me a bit mad, and who can forget the never ending elevator rides?  But I was willing to look past those flaws in what was, in my mind at least, an otherwise perfect game.

So I was super pumped when ME2 came out.  I bought it the first day, and didn't stop playing until I'd explored every planet, done every side quest, and defeated the Collectors once and for all.

However, though I think ME2 is a good game, it in no way lived up to the standard of ME1.  Maybe I was expecting more than just a "Dirty Dozen in Outer Space" deal, but regardless, by hour 27 I was getting really bored with the game, whereas I never experienced that feeling in ME1.

So here's my ultimate breakdown of Mass Effect 2 (again, for those who care):

What I Liked

First of all, combat was much more improved in this game.  I found it to be a huge improvement over the first game and it actually played like Gears of War, which is one of my favorite shooters, so the combat was really more intuitive than the first game.

I also thought the side quests were much better than in the first game.  Exploring the different worlds gave you a great feeling of variety in terms of the quests you found than the first one did, and none of those annoying Thresher Maws to blast your Mako cannon at!

I loved the design of the new Normandy, and the characters were all great.  Each one was unique and had his or her own character arc which I enjoyed playing through.  I also enjoyed the new elevator system.  Sure, it wasn't seamless like the first one, but the loading screens were better than the slow elevator ride.  lol.

I also thought the design work was much better.  The levels were all different, the characters were all unique, and the whole game just looked beautiful.

I also liked the Shield/Heal system here better.  Getting rid of the medigels was a great move.  Made things much more fast paced and easier on the whole than micromanaging healing.

Also, the hacking minigames were FAR better than the first Mass Effect.  I really hated those twitch based button pushing things you had to do in ME1.  I guess my fingers just aren't that fast.

Finally, getting to play as Joker for a level!  It was really fun to step outside of Shepherd's skin for a bit and play as a different character.  I was kinda hoping I'd get to play as every one of my team during the suicide mission because it was refreshing to have a different POV in the Mass Effect Universe.

What I Didn't Like

Even though I enjoyed the game as a whole and would still recommend it to friends, there was a lot of stuff in it that I did not like - more than what I did, unfortunately.

First, my biggest gripe was scanning planets for minerals.  I think from reading the boards here there's a consensus for that.  It was just tedious, mind numbing work.  I wouldn't have minded it if there was a reticle pointing me in the direction of a mineral deposit, or simply a quick planet-wide scan function that automatically collected all the minerals for you.  But in order to get all the upgrades (which, for a dumb RPGer like me is an obsession) I really had to waste valuable time sitting there, bored, while scanning planet after planet.  It might have even have been nice to have some function that told you the minerals present on the planet, because I always ended up needing more Platinum than I had, compared to all the other minerals.

Second, I really hated that I had to buy fuel for my ship to travel around a star system.  Did this really add anything to the game other than as a way to waste money?  Fuel was cheap, so it wasn't like you really had to work to explore the galaxy and find all the side quests.  And if you ran out of fuel, you just automatically went back to a system with a fuel station, so it wasn't a big deal if you used it all up!  I could understand having a fuel gage if you really had to manage your exploration, and if you had to find a planet that had fuel on it when you ran out, but as of now, it just seems like an annoying gimmick that never really served any use.

Third, I was very disappointed in the type of loot you could find in ME2.  Part of exploring is finding sweet stuff to outfit your character with.  There weren't enough weapons, and the weapons had no upgrades you could mix-and-match like you could in ME1, and the armor options were very boring looking compared to the armor you could get in the first game.  But I always took time to explore every level fully and never found anything worth getting for the most part.  Maybe a couple cases of elements that didn't really contain anything substantial enough to be worth the effort of finding it.  (Speaking of weapons, not being able to change to different types of heavy weapons on the fly in the game was really frustrating at times!  Made me miss the old inventory system.)

Fourth, the lack of exploring really kinda got me down.  I can remember spending hours running around the Citadel in the first game.  I thought the levels in ME2 were a little too straight forward, and the lack of a map really irked me on some missions.  Not because I'd get lost, but just because I like to see what the level looks like.  (Yes, it's a geeky complaint, but that's how I am darn it!)  I would have liked more areas to explore without having to blast my way through generic mercenary bad guys constantly.  Also, having a radar that I didn't have to hold RB down to see would have been nice too.

Then there was the new ammo system.  The thermal clips really got annoying, especially to a casual gamer like me who can't aim to save his life.  I kept running out of "ammo" and would have to switch weapons.  I understand this can add a layer of strategy to the game for the hard core shooter fans out there, but I thought the heat system of the weapons in the first game worked just fine and wasn't too easy or challenging to manage in the big gunfights.  Not sure why this system was changed in favor of ammo clips, but I didn't think it was a smart choice.

Then there was the level up system.  i thought the system of leveling in the first Mass Effect was far better, because it was more robust.  The streamlined version in ME2 didn't make me feel like I could really tailor my characters as much as I would have liked.  This could be a small gripe to some, but I felt the dumbed-down RPG aspects kinda hurt the overall experience of playing through and leveling up.

But probably the biggest problem I had with Mass Effect 2 is the story.  Gameplay overall was great, and I really enjoyed it, but the magic of Mass Effect 1 was its layered and compelling narrative, which this game really lacked.  I know there are lots of people here who probably think the story was great, and I'm glad they enjoyed it, but I don't think it lived up to the standard the first game set and I'll tell you why...

Problems With The Story

I'm a writer by trade and have worked in the movie industry, so I'm a sucker for a great narrative.  Mass Effect 2 is basically a character drama that wants to be an Epic Space Opera.  I think they were going for more "Empire Strikes Back" which was a very character-centric movie, but they fell short in the epic-ness that made the first game so fantastic.

In Mass Effect 1, there was a mystery surrounding Saren and what his plan was.  I was curious about the questions the characters uncovered as they dug deeper into his treachery, and felt compelled to unravel the mystery.  In ME2, they tried to make a mystery out of who the Collectors were and why they were kidnapping humans, but you spent 90% of your game time doing quests that had absolutely nothing to do with that mystery!  At its core, ME2 is 3 missions worth of plot and 30 missions worth of character development.  And even though I liked the characters, there were some I just don't find interesting enough to care all that much about doing a 60 minute long loyalty quest for.

So that "propulsion system" of a building tension & drama which ME1 had in spades was nowhere to be seen, and it made ME2 a weaker game in my opinion.

Also, the lack of a major nemesis for Shepherd was a big drawback.  In ME1, we had Saren as Shepherd's nemesis.  Yes, Sovreign was the major bad guy, but Saren was the one Shepherd had to fight.  He was a real, tangible threat, and an enemy to rival Shepherd's heroics.  In ME2, Shepherd had no one to really fight against.  he had the main Prothean Overseer who took over bodies of his minions, but Shepherd never had any face-to-face time with the guy, and he was never able to mock or harm Shepherd in any way that was credible like Saren did.  This lack of a central nemesis for Shepherd to rage against made the over-all story kinda boring because I never felt anything was really at stake.  A good hero needs a good villain, and though the Collectors as a whole were a good enough "big baddie," there was nothing personalized about them to make me want to root for their defeat like I did with Saren.

Another big story gripe was that there was no clearly defined Rising Action to the main storyline.  In ME1, Saren is constantly 1-upping his plans to usher in the Reaper threat, and Shepherd is constantly racing to stop him, eventually leading to the revelations on Ios and culminating in the Battle for the Citadel.  There was a clear sense of rising action in that game.  In ME2, the rising action goes something like this:

You're told you have to go on a suicide mission.
You find out the Collectors are Protheans
You Steal an IFF from a conveniently found dead Reaper ship
Your crew is kidnapped
You go on suicide mission that you were gonna go on in the first place.

But because we never really understand what the Collector's motivation is, why they need humans, and what's at stake for the galaxy, it all falls flat, at least until its time to rescue your crew.  Then, finally, there's some sense of urgency, but until that point, the Collector threat doesn't seem very far reaching or urgent.

Which brings me to my next story nit-pick, which was I never felt there was really anything at stake for the characters or the universe as a whole.  In ME1, Sovreign was trying to usher in a fleet of reapers to destroy all life in the galaxy.  So the stakes were pretty high.  In ME2, some human colonies were disappearing, and it was suspected it has something to do with the reapers.  That's it!

Even when you finally get on the Reaper base, and you find the big human reaper that's only partially finished, you wonder to yourself: What's the big deal?  What's the big threat to the universe here?  Will this reaper try and usher in the others like Sovreign did?  It just wasn't as big a revelation as what we got in ME1.  It was small in comparison, with no real build up or payoff.  In ME1, we needed the entire human fleet to take out 1 reaper, while desperately fighting his proxy inside the Citadel, with the fate of the Galactic Council and all life in the universe in the balance.  Here, we got three guys in a remote starbase fighting a giant robot that's being pumped full of human goo for some reason.  Again, I felt like nothing big was really at stake.

There were also massive plot holes in ME2 which never got fleshed out.  I felt the story in ME1 was really tight and well written.  It gave you all you needed to know and left enough questions unanswered to get you to want to find out more.

In ME2, however, there were just too many things that didn't add up.  Why were the Protheans making a human reaper?  I got the fact that each reaper is modeled after the race it conquored, but why was it necessary to make a human one?  It was never made clear why the Protheans were doing this other than they had been "enslaved by evil."  But what was the endgame?  What would the human reaper accomplish?  And why did the Reaper require vast amounts of Human genetic material?  And if the Human Reaper was completed, what was the consequence for the galaxy?  None of these were made absolutely clear in the game.

How'd Shepherd and his team leave Omega-4?  I thought you needed a Mass Relay to get out of there, but they just seemed to shoot off using their own drive somehow, even though they were surrounded by black holes.  It might have been cooler if they were "stuck" in Omega 4 as the Reaper threat closed in from Dark Space and were unable to warn others about them coming.  But as it stands, not even Shepherd knows the Reapers are on their way.

At the end of ME1, we had a clear set up for a sequel which was dramatic, personal, and made me wanting more.  At the end of ME2, we got a cool shot of tons of Reapers heading for the galaxy, but nothing that made me go "Holy Crap I Need To Find Out What Happens Next!"  In short, the cliffhanger, while decent, wasn't as good as it could have been.

Over-all, I'd give the story of Mass Effect 2 a C+ compared to Mass Effect 1's A+.  Each mission in ME2 was, in and of itself, a good story, but I never felt like I was part of an epic galactic struggle like I did in the first one.  The more character-centric stories were good, but they weren't properly balanced with the over-all story of the Reapers and their threat to the universe.  Maybe if each story has somehow tied into the Collector's plot, it would have been better, but as it stands, it was all too episodic and disjointed.  It felt like a bunch of side-quests strung together that had no real payoff beyond character development. 

I really hope in ME3, Bioware gives us an epic conclusion to this amazing game franchise with a story that rivals or surpasses both the first and second Mass Effect.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just wanted to share my gripes with the faceless masses.  :-)


Every writer and designer working on ME3 needs to read this. Every executive in charge of budget needs to read this.  Basically every Bioware employee, or EA employee that has anything to do with ME3 needs to read this.

This needs to be made into a 10 foot tall poster and hung in a highly visible place in the studio.

The OP is dead on about everything posted.

Except the part about the Thresher Maw's.

ME3 needs to have planet exploration with Threshr traps and it also needs to explain how they get from world to world.  Maybe they latch on to ships at a larval stage or something.

I know many of you had a cry about getting killed by a Thresher while recklessly galavanting across a hostile alien world, but that is what made it awesome.  You are on a hostile alien world.  The threat of Thresher Maw attack reminded you that you are not safe on this hostile alien world.

As a writer the OP should have recognized this... but people get all teary-eyed when they are killed in video games and want to blaim things so I understand.

Modifié par ZennExile, 04 février 2010 - 08:55 .


#46
MisterMonkeyBanana

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I found the story of Mass Effect 2 to be more like a TV series than a movie like ME1 (to use an analogy.)



Each of the different recruitment, and loyalty missions felt like a separate episode - one minute you're tracking down a trained assassin to recruit him, the other you're sneaking around on a borg cub- geth station to implant a virus. The battle against the Collectors was more like a metaplot (like the Dominion in Deep Space Nine maybe) that is in the shadows of everything you do, but it isn't the focus of every main mission.



Whether that is better than ME1's more movie-like story where everything contributes to the greater whole is up to you.

#47
kraidy1117

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mjack234 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

I am a writer and I have have to disaggre with you on this. For one scanining planets was quick and easy. I scaned a planet in under a minute and the planet was bare. Also how did you get bored in ME2? Everything from the action, to the places to the characters where alot more intresting then it was in ME.

In ME the places where realy dead. There was some talking and stuff, but realy dead. In ME2 the world is alive. People are walking, dancing, conversations and even drinking. I just don't see how you could have gotten bored in ME2 but not in ME.

As for the story, as a writer I know the trilogy rules. ME2 followed the rule for part 2 and IMO it is the best game Bioware has made. The main story while might not have been that original was still well done. There was alot of good twist and the big twist reminded me when Darth Vadar told Luke he was his father. ME2 is the empire strikes back of video games. Also the thing that ME failed at and what ME2 did fantastic was making it emotional(spelling?) When Miranda had tears, my eyes got watery. When I was doing the sucide mission I was sweating because of fear someone would die. The main story was good, but what made the game the best was it's characters.

That's my thought on it, though I still can't se how you found ME2 boring.



I didn't find ME2 boring.  But after yet another run-and-gun loyalty mission 25+ hours into the game, I started getting bored.  Things picked up after the Loyalty quests were done and I jumped to Omega-4.  As I've said, ME2 is a good game.

But as a writer, you should know that the second act of a story is about a reversal.  This is usually when the opposing force (villain) gains an advantage or the hero is thrown into crisis.  How did ME2 accomplish this?  Sure, at the end we see the army of Reapers heading towards the galaxy from dark space, but within the confines of Shepherd's narrative, nothing really happened.  He was recruited for a suicide mission, and he pulled it off.  He was not beaten.  He received no real revelation of what is to come.  The Reapers gained no real upper hand.  There is no dramatic tension here.  Had Shepherd had to knowingly sacrifice his team, or even himself, that would have been something.  How cool would it have been had Shepherd died at the end, and his team knows he's the only one who can stop the oncoming reaper threat?  I'm just saying, there was no real reversal here.

I'm not saying that the individual stories of your team aren't good.  i thought each one was well told.  But at the expense of an over-all plot.  Empire Strikes Back did a great job of weaving these character moments into a story of how the Empire was crushing the Rebellion and how the Dark Side could gain dominance.  Every side story in ME2 was disjointed and separate from the main threat of the Reapers and the Collectors.


Actualy in the second act of the trilogy, the main threat of the series is not realy present. It's a whole new eniemy and builds up to the last act which ME2 did well. Also about the sacerfice thing. This is trilogy so they would not do something like that. The ME trilogy is about Shepard and making a decision like that in the second part is stupid and would have turned me of the game. Also not everyone survived the mission with everyone alive. Let your LI die on the sucide mission and then say theres nothing about that. Shepard gets very emotional. Maybe it's just the type of writer I am (I love to give little information, but enough so people can peice it together)

#48
Addarell

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From a director's perspective, I think the story could have had more explosions. And maybe more giant robots.



- M.B.

#49
ZennExile

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MisterMonkeyBanana wrote...

I found the story of Mass Effect 2 to be more like a TV series than a movie like ME1 (to use an analogy.)

Each of the different recruitment, and loyalty missions felt like a separate episode - one minute you're tracking down a trained assassin to recruit him, the other you're sneaking around on a borg cub- geth station to implant a virus. The battle against the Collectors was more like a metaplot (like the Dominion in Deep Space Nine maybe) that is in the shadows of everything you do, but it isn't the focus of every main mission.

Whether that is better than ME1's more movie-like story where everything contributes to the greater whole is up to you.


It was like a single 1 hour special compared to a 9 hour long trilogy.

Sure the episode was "good".  But that trilogy was just as good and we got 3 times the entertainment out of our 60 dollars.

#50
Guest_Luc0s_*

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@ the opening post:



Okay, so first you say:



"In ME2, however, there were just too many things that didn't add up. Why were the Protheans making a human reaper? I got the fact that each reaper is modeled after the race it conquored, but why was it necessary to make a human one? It was never made clear why the Protheans were doing this other than they had been "enslaved by evil." But what was the endgame? What would the human reaper accomplish? And why did the Reaper require vast amounts of Human genetic material? And if the Human Reaper was completed, what was the consequence for the galaxy?"



A lot of questions, with only one answer: Wait for Mass Effect 3.



But then you wrote:



"At the end of ME1, we had a clear set up for a sequel which was dramatic, personal, and made me wanting more. At the end of ME2, we got a cool shot of tons of Reapers heading for the galaxy, but nothing that made me go "Holy Crap I Need To Find Out What Happens Next!" In short, the cliffhanger, while decent, wasn't as good as it could have been."



So first you have many questions you rather see answered, which is the whole purpose of a mid-part in a triology, to confuse the reader/watcher/player and rise many new questions, so they can come to an epic conclusion in part 3 (you as a writer should know that), then you say ME2 doesn't have a cliff hanger with interesting unanswered questions?



Seems to me you're contradicting yourself here. Please explain yourself on this point if you like.