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[justregret]

John Forseti wrote...

justregret wrote...

John Forseti wrote...

justregret wrote...

Why make a new Reaper, when you already have one? Sure it's in comatose, but it probally would have been easier to repair that ship than build a new one..

One of the indoctrinated crew tells his video log that the "god" dreams but is dead(like cthulu, lol), so I think even if the collectors managed to repair the ship, they wouldn't be able to bring it back to life and that would probably mean it couldn't activate the citadel relay and usher in the Reaper fleet

I suppose, but its still a big-ass ship and with the Collector's vessel(s) could easily destroy what's left of the Citadel fleet.

I'm not so sure, I get the impression that the collectors are based entirely in their fortress through the omega 4 relay and only have the one vessel(it's certainly the only one you ever encounter). Which, while it cut through the original normandy like butter your new one messed them up with upgrades that you built in on the fly. And the council fleet already proved powerful enough to destroy a reaper AND an entire Geth fleet. It might be a hard fight, but it's one that is likely to go well for the citadel forces.

Also, even if they won, I don't think the collectors can control the network or activate the realy on their own, that only a reaper can do that. Otherwise, they could have very easily snuck a guy in, no problem.

justregret wrote...

John Forseti wrote...

justregret wrote...

Oh,
and constantly using fuel to move in space defies logic, fuel would
only be used to reach desired speed, and then for deceleration.

The
fuel powers your fusion plant which creates the energy needed to create
the mass effect fields that allow the ship to travel faster than light.
If you drop the mass effect field while travelling at faster than light
speeds every spec of your ship and the stuff in it is instantly
annihalated.


I'm pretty sure it's in the codex somewhere.

Fusion plants need hardly any fuel... Not to be disagreeable, but this fuel gauge irritates me.

So, which actual working fusion plants are you comparing this to?

The idle Reaper is still sentient enough to keep itself alive, and indoctrinate an entire science crew! Would building a new Reaper automatically give it the power to interact with the Citadel and bring about our impending doom?

I don't see how a fusion generator would work differently than theory; the main problem is, are fusion generators even achievable.

[justregret]

fogofeternity wrote...

justregret wrote...

 I was under the assumption all the Reapers were dormant, but the ending of ME 2 seems to prove me wrong.

I always assumed they'd been awake from the beginning on ME1. Given that Sovereign presumably signalled them to wake up as soon as he detected that it was time for another multi-species genocide. Be a bit pointless for a surprise attack if the mass relay at the Citadel opened but all the Reapers on the other side were still asleep.

'course now I have mental images of the Reapers stuck in dark space chatting among themselves.

"This is taking an awfully long time. Shouldn't it be time?"

"Someone get hold of Sovereign."

"I'm trying, but his phone just goes straight to voicemail."

"..."

"...anyone know any jokes?"

"Knock, knock..."

Seeing as how far out they are, I'd assume they would be awakened when the Relay became active.

[fogofeternity]

justregret wrote...

Seeing as how far out they are, I'd assume they would be awakened when the Relay became active.

Though on that basis, why are they awake now? If the relay never became active they'd never have woken up, and they'd just be happily hibernating waiting for a call from Sovereign that will never come.

[Kilmiina]

mjack234 wrote...

In Mass Effect 2, they tried to do the same thing, but at the expense of the over-all story that Mass Effect 1 set up.  It almost feels like the second half of the game, once we got to Omega-4, should have been as long as the first half when we're recruiting and gaining loyalty. 

There's been a lot said already, but this snippet appears to be the most true in my mind. I loved the character side stories and getting to know the character via their own personal quests, but at the end of the day, this is supposed to be a story about Shepard saving the galaxy. I wouldn't drop any of the content, but I would've beefed up the content surrounding either the Collectors or the effects of the Collectors' efforts to harvest human life. Hopefully ME3 will bring more galaxy-saving goodness to the table

[justregret]

fogofeternity wrote...

justregret wrote...

Seeing as how far out they are, I'd assume they would be awakened when the Relay became active.

Though on that basis, why are they awake now? If the relay never became active they'd never have woken up, and they'd just be happily hibernating waiting for a call from Sovereign that will never come.

...And that's why I was surprised when they mobilized.

[John Forseti]

justregret wrote...

The idle Reaper is still sentient enough to keep itself alive, and indoctrinate an entire science crew!

The Reaper isn't alive, idle or sentient, they tell you it's dead. The indoctrination field might be active, but so are the lights. Think of it like one of those people who have an accident and become entirely brain dead, but the doctors have managed to keep their body going on lfe support. The thing that makes them, them, is gone, all that's left is the machinery still ticking away.

justregret wrote...
Would building a new Reaper automatically give it the power to interact with the Citadel and bring about our impending doom?

Probably, otherwise there wouldn' be a point to doing it, would there?

justregret wrote...
I don't see how a fusion generator would work differently than theory;

I'm pretty sure they need to be refueled regularly in theory aswell, stars only keep going for billions of years because they're so massive and made almost entirely of fuel. Though I suppose I'm not a physicist.

Also, the ones we are trying to make are to power our homes and factories and shops, not travel faster than light.

[justregret]

John Forseti wrote...

justregret wrote...

The idle Reaper is still sentient enough to keep itself alive, and indoctrinate an entire science crew!

The Reaper isn't alive, idle or sentient, they tell you it's dead. The indoctrination field might be active, but so are the lights. Think of it like one of those people who have an accident and become entirely brain dead, but the doctors have managed to keep their body going on lfe support. The thing that makes them, them, is gone, all that's left is the machinery still ticking away.

justregret wrote...
Would building a new Reaper automatically give it the power to interact with the Citadel and bring about our impending doom?

Probably, otherwise there wouldn' be a point to doing it, would there?

justregret wrote...
I don't see how a fusion generator would work differently than theory;

I'm pretty sure they need to be refueled regularly in theory aswell, stars only keep going for billions of years because they're so massive and made almost entirely of fuel. Though I suppose I'm not a physicist.

Also, the ones we are trying to make are to power our homes and factories and shops, not travel faster than light.

But what's the difference between re-activating something and building a new one? If the new Reaper automatically recieves necessary information, shouldn't the old one as well?

If faster than light travel takes that much juice...  Well, those are some incredibly inefficient engines/ propulsion units.

[Anticitizen1]

justregret wrote...

fogofeternity wrote...

justregret wrote...

Seeing as how far out they are, I'd assume they would be awakened when the Relay became active.

Though
on that basis, why are they awake now? If the relay never became active
they'd never have woken up, and they'd just be happily hibernating
waiting for a call from Sovereign that will never come.

...And that's why I was surprised when they mobilized.

I'm sure they can communicate with each other.
Sovereign was probably like, "oh ****...hey, you guys. Remember those last dudes we took out? Yea they ****ed us over big time..."

Modifié par Anticitizen1, 05 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[Bio_mooch_1]

mjack234 wrote...
 After playing all the way through Mass Effect 2, I figured I'd share my opinion with the masses (not that any of you really care, but what the hey? I got some free time.  :-) )

First of all, I was a ginormous fan of Mass Effect 1.  It's my favorite XBox game of all time.  I'm a casual gamer because of my job, but when I popped the first Mass Effect into my XBox, I spent an entire three day weekend doing nothing but play that game until I beat it.  I was obsessed with it, and engrossed in the story.  In fact, the final battle with Saren and Sovreign sent chills up my spine, and I felt like I was in my very own space opera.  It was truly a magical experience.

I did have a few gripes with ME1 that I think everyone else had.  The Inventory system and the Mako missions drove me a bit mad, and who can forget the never ending elevator rides?  But I was willing to look past those flaws in what was, in my mind at least, an otherwise perfect game.

So I was super pumped when ME2 came out.  I bought it the first day, and didn't stop playing until I'd explored every planet, done every side quest, and defeated the Collectors once and for all.

However, though I think ME2 is a good game, it in no way lived up to the standard of ME1.  Maybe I was expecting more than just a "Dirty Dozen in Outer Space" deal, but regardless, by hour 27 I was getting really bored with the game, whereas I never experienced that feeling in ME1.

So here's my ultimate breakdown of Mass Effect 2 (again, for those who care):

What I Liked

First of all, combat was much more improved in this game.  I found it to be a huge improvement over the first game and it actually played like Gears of War, which is one of my favorite shooters, so the combat was really more intuitive than the first game.

I also thought the side quests were much better than in the first game.  Exploring the different worlds gave you a great feeling of variety in terms of the quests you found than the first one did, and none of those annoying Thresher Maws to blast your Mako cannon at!

I loved the design of the new Normandy, and the characters were all great.  Each one was unique and had his or her own character arc which I enjoyed playing through.  I also enjoyed the new elevator system.  Sure, it wasn't seamless like the first one, but the loading screens were better than the slow elevator ride.  lol.

I also thought the design work was much better.  The levels were all different, the characters were all unique, and the whole game just looked beautiful.

I also liked the Shield/Heal system here better.  Getting rid of the medigels was a great move.  Made things much more fast paced and easier on the whole than micromanaging healing.

Also, the hacking minigames were FAR better than the first Mass Effect.  I really hated those twitch based button pushing things you had to do in ME1.  I guess my fingers just aren't that fast.

Finally, getting to play as Joker for a level!  It was really fun to step outside of Shepherd's skin for a bit and play as a different character.  I was kinda hoping I'd get to play as every one of my team during the suicide mission because it was refreshing to have a different POV in the Mass Effect Universe.

What I Didn't Like

Even though I enjoyed the game as a whole and would still recommend it to friends, there was a lot of stuff in it that I did not like - more than what I did, unfortunately.

First, my biggest gripe was scanning planets for minerals.  I think from reading the boards here there's a consensus for that.  It was just tedious, mind numbing work.  I wouldn't have minded it if there was a reticle pointing me in the direction of a mineral deposit, or simply a quick planet-wide scan function that automatically collected all the minerals for you.  But in order to get all the upgrades (which, for a dumb RPGer like me is an obsession) I really had to waste valuable time sitting there, bored, while scanning planet after planet.  It might have even have been nice to have some function that told you the minerals present on the planet, because I always ended up needing more Platinum than I had, compared to all the other minerals.

Second, I really hated that I had to buy fuel for my ship to travel around a star system.  Did this really add anything to the game other than as a way to waste money?  Fuel was cheap, so it wasn't like you really had to work to explore the galaxy and find all the side quests.  And if you ran out of fuel, you just automatically went back to a system with a fuel station, so it wasn't a big deal if you used it all up!  I could understand having a fuel gage if you really had to manage your exploration, and if you had to find a planet that had fuel on it when you ran out, but as of now, it just seems like an annoying gimmick that never really served any use.

Third, I was very disappointed in the type of loot you could find in ME2.  Part of exploring is finding sweet stuff to outfit your character with.  There weren't enough weapons, and the weapons had no upgrades you could mix-and-match like you could in ME1, and the armor options were very boring looking compared to the armor you could get in the first game.  But I always took time to explore every level fully and never found anything worth getting for the most part.  Maybe a couple cases of elements that didn't really contain anything substantial enough to be worth the effort of finding it.  (Speaking of weapons, not being able to change to different types of heavy weapons on the fly in the game was really frustrating at times!  Made me miss the old inventory system.)

Fourth, the lack of exploring really kinda got me down.  I can remember spending hours running around the Citadel in the first game.  I thought the levels in ME2 were a little too straight forward, and the lack of a map really irked me on some missions.  Not because I'd get lost, but just because I like to see what the level looks like.  (Yes, it's a geeky complaint, but that's how I am darn it!)  I would have liked more areas to explore without having to blast my way through generic mercenary bad guys constantly.  Also, having a radar that I didn't have to hold RB down to see would have been nice too.

Then there was the new ammo system.  The thermal clips really got annoying, especially to a casual gamer like me who can't aim to save his life.  I kept running out of "ammo" and would have to switch weapons.  I understand this can add a layer of strategy to the game for the hard core shooter fans out there, but I thought the heat system of the weapons in the first game worked just fine and wasn't too easy or challenging to manage in the big gunfights.  Not sure why this system was changed in favor of ammo clips, but I didn't think it was a smart choice.

Then there was the level up system.  i thought the system of leveling in the first Mass Effect was far better, because it was more robust.  The streamlined version in ME2 didn't make me feel like I could really tailor my characters as much as I would have liked.  This could be a small gripe to some, but I felt the dumbed-down RPG aspects kinda hurt the overall experience of playing through and leveling up.

But probably the biggest problem I had with Mass Effect 2 is the story.  Gameplay overall was great, and I really enjoyed it, but the magic of Mass Effect 1 was its layered and compelling narrative, which this game really lacked.  I know there are lots of people here who probably think the story was great, and I'm glad they enjoyed it, but I don't think it lived up to the standard the first game set and I'll tell you why...

Problems With The Story

I'm a writer by trade and have worked in the movie industry, so I'm a sucker for a great narrative.  Mass Effect 2 is basically a character drama that wants to be an Epic Space Opera.  I think they were going for more "Empire Strikes Back" which was a very character-centric movie, but they fell short in the epic-ness that made the first game so fantastic.

In Mass Effect 1, there was a mystery surrounding Saren and what his plan was.  I was curious about the questions the characters uncovered as they dug deeper into his treachery, and felt compelled to unravel the mystery.  In ME2, they tried to make a mystery out of who the Collectors were and why they were kidnapping humans, but you spent 90% of your game time doing quests that had absolutely nothing to do with that mystery!  At its core, ME2 is 3 missions worth of plot and 30 missions worth of character development.  And even though I liked the characters, there were some I just don't find interesting enough to care all that much about doing a 60 minute long loyalty quest for.

So that "propulsion system" of a building tension & drama which ME1 had in spades was nowhere to be seen, and it made ME2 a weaker game in my opinion.

Also, the lack of a major nemesis for Shepherd was a big drawback.  In ME1, we had Saren as Shepherd's nemesis.  Yes, Sovreign was the major bad guy, but Saren was the one Shepherd had to fight.  He was a real, tangible threat, and an enemy to rival Shepherd's heroics.  In ME2, Shepherd had no one to really fight against.  he had the main Prothean Overseer who took over bodies of his minions, but Shepherd never had any face-to-face time with the guy, and he was never able to mock or harm Shepherd in any way that was credible like Saren did.  This lack of a central nemesis for Shepherd to rage against made the over-all story kinda boring because I never felt anything was really at stake.  A good hero needs a good villain, and though the Collectors as a whole were a good enough "big baddie," there was nothing personalized about them to make me want to root for their defeat like I did with Saren.

Another big story gripe was that there was no clearly defined Rising Action to the main storyline.  In ME1, Saren is constantly 1-upping his plans to usher in the Reaper threat, and Shepherd is constantly racing to stop him, eventually leading to the revelations on Ios and culminating in the Battle for the Citadel.  There was a clear sense of rising action in that game.  In ME2, the rising action goes something like this:

You're told you have to go on a suicide mission.
You find out the Collectors are Protheans
You Steal an IFF from a conveniently found dead Reaper ship
Your crew is kidnapped
You go on suicide mission that you were gonna go on in the first place.

But because we never really understand what the Collector's motivation is, why they need humans, and what's at stake for the galaxy, it all falls flat, at least until its time to rescue your crew.  Then, finally, there's some sense of urgency, but until that point, the Collector threat doesn't seem very far reaching or urgent.

Which brings me to my next story nit-pick, which was I never felt there was really anything at stake for the characters or the universe as a whole.  In ME1, Sovreign was trying to usher in a fleet of reapers to destroy all life in the galaxy.  So the stakes were pretty high.  In ME2, some human colonies were disappearing, and it was suspected it has something to do with the reapers.  That's it!

Even when you finally get on the Reaper base, and you find the big human reaper that's only partially finished, you wonder to yourself: What's the big deal?  What's the big threat to the universe here?  Will this reaper try and usher in the others like Sovreign did?  It just wasn't as big a revelation as what we got in ME1.  It was small in comparison, with no real build up or payoff.  In ME1, we needed the entire human fleet to take out 1 reaper, while desperately fighting his proxy inside the Citadel, with the fate of the Galactic Council and all life in the universe in the balance.  Here, we got three guys in a remote starbase fighting a giant robot that's being pumped full of human goo for some reason.  Again, I felt like nothing big was really at stake.

There were also massive plot holes in ME2 which never got fleshed out.  I felt the story in ME1 was really tight and well written.  It gave you all you needed to know and left enough questions unanswered to get you to want to find out more.

In ME2, however, there were just too many things that didn't add up.  Why were the Protheans making a human reaper?  I got the fact that each reaper is modeled after the race it conquored, but why was it necessary to make a human one?  It was never made clear why the Protheans were doing this other than they had been "enslaved by evil."  But what was the endgame?  What would the human reaper accomplish?  And why did the Reaper require vast amounts of Human genetic material?  And if the Human Reaper was completed, what was the consequence for the galaxy?  None of these were made absolutely clear in the game.

How'd Shepherd and his team leave Omega-4?  I thought you needed a Mass Relay to get out of there, but they just seemed to shoot off using their own drive somehow, even though they were surrounded by black holes.  It might have been cooler if they were "stuck" in Omega 4 as the Reaper threat closed in from Dark Space and were unable to warn others about them coming.  But as it stands, not even Shepherd knows the Reapers are on their way.

At the end of ME1, we had a clear set up for a sequel which was dramatic, personal, and made me wanting more.  At the end of ME2, we got a cool shot of tons of Reapers heading for the galaxy, but nothing that made me go "Holy Crap I Need To Find Out What Happens Next!"  In short, the cliffhanger, while decent, wasn't as good as it could have been.

Over-all, I'd give the story of Mass Effect 2 a C+ compared to Mass Effect 1's A+.  Each mission in ME2 was, in and of itself, a good story, but I never felt like I was part of an epic galactic struggle like I did in the first one.  The more character-centric stories were good, but they weren't properly balanced with the over-all story of the Reapers and their threat to the universe.  Maybe if each story has somehow tied into the Collector's plot, it would have been better, but as it stands, it was all too episodic and disjointed.  It felt like a bunch of side-quests strung together that had no real payoff beyond character development. 

I really hope in ME3, Bioware gives us an epic conclusion to this amazing game franchise with a story that rivals or surpasses both the first and second Mass Effect.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just wanted to share my gripes with the faceless masses.  :-)

Creaters, designers and writers of BIOWARE (mass effect franchise) please take note of what this individual has stated!. I agree whole-heartedly with it.

[Trishann]

mjack,

As a fellow writer I found myself nodding at your analysis, specifically about the villain. However, the main jist of it is flawed in several ways.

People keep pointing out the transitory nature of Mass Effect 2 due to its placement as a second act. There is some truth to this, certainly, but they, like you, are missing the mark.

Bioware is riding the edge of modern storytelling. This storytelling is similar, but quite different, than non-interactive fiction.

The premise of choice cannot be denied, although it is understated in these forums again and again.

I can choose to think Jack is a raving, psycho ****. Or, I can help her along until the point her walls come crashing down and we make tender woo hoo in my cabin. I can let my fascination for Miranda rule the day, or, the path I choose, sit in my cabin, alone, staring at the picture of Liara with a broken heart mixed with unfulfilled desire but of resolute, hardened sprit.

And that’s just one part of the game. The combat aspects of these personalities are legion (ha ha, I kill myself).  I dragged Miranda along in my party constantly because of Warp and Overload, and the fact her butt was just awesome. However, I also took the Professor because every time he lit something on fire, I giggled. The combination of us three was, in onto itself, epic.

And that was just my singular choice of a party on missions to find other squad members. In ME1, I took Tali and Liara with me everywhere and as a Solider, Engineer, and Adept; we were the Three Angry ****es who blew our way through anything. In ME2, I was forced, if I choose to gain loyalty, to diverse myself and, for one significant mission for each squad mate, take along someone I didn’t particularly care for combat wise. This was an eye opener. I had to adjust my play style. Think more.

These were my choices. The choices I could make in ME2 blow ME1 out of the water. It was like an embarrassment of empowerment. I was, more so than any game I have played, making small and large choices that seemed to impact not the world around me, but my emotions and feelings.

And that is the true transitory nature of ME2. Bioware is pulling along an entire industry and, for the most part, their customers up to new heights of interaction. As computing power, design techniques and modern writing swirl together, these types of games will become unstoppable.

ME2 is not without faults, but it is a better game than ME1 because it is more choice diverse. This diversity goes from combat to the people I like and don’t like.  It is empowerment wrapped up in diversity dipped in butter and served with bacon. I don’t’ feel like I’m in a story, watching the story, or reading a story.

I feel like I am the story.

Modifié par Trishann, 05 février 2010 - 01:39 .

[fogofeternity]

justregret wrote...

fogofeternity wrote...

justregret wrote...

Seeing as how far out they are, I'd assume they would be awakened when the Relay became active.

Though on that basis, why are they awake now? If the relay never became active they'd never have woken up, and they'd just be happily hibernating waiting for a call from Sovereign that will never come.

...And that's why I was surprised when they mobilized.

Different conclusions from the same evidence then. I took it as confirmation that Sovereign had woken them up when he was getting ready to active the Citadel relay at the start of ME1.

...particularly given the Codex after ME2 completion confirms that Harbinger is a Reaper in dark space, which confirms they can communicate instantaneously over vast distances.

[mjack234]

Trishann wrote...

mjack,

As a fellow writer I found myself nodding at your analysis, specifically about the villain. However, the main jist of it is flawed in several ways.

People keep pointing out the transitory nature of Mass Effect 2 due to its placement as a second act. There is some truth to this, certainly, but they, like you, are missing the mark.

Bioware is riding the edge of modern storytelling. This storytelling is similar, but quite different, than non-interactive fiction.

The premise of choice cannot be denied, although it is understated in these forums again and again.

I can choose to think Jack is a raving, psycho ****. Or, I can help her along until the point her walls come crashing down and we make tender woo hoo in my cabin. I can let my fascination for Miranda rule the day, or, the path I choose, sit in my cabin, alone, staring at the picture of Liara with a broken heart mixed with unfulfilled desire but of resolute, hardened sprit.

And that’s just one part of the game. The combat aspects of these personalities are legion (ha ha, I kill myself).  I dragged Miranda along in my party constantly because of Warp and Overload, and the fact her butt was just awesome. However, I also took the Professor because every time he lit something on fire, I giggled. The combination of us three was, in onto itself, epic.

And that was just my singular choice of a party on missions to find other squad members. In ME1, I took Tali and Liara with me everywhere and as a Solider, Engineer, and Adept; we were the Three Angry ****es who blew our way through anything. In ME2, I was forced, if I choose to gain loyalty, to diverse myself and, for one significant mission for each squad mate, take along someone I didn’t particularly care for combat wise. This was an eye opener. I had to adjust my play style. Think more.

These were my choices. The choices I could make in ME2 blow ME1 out of the water. It was like an embarrassment of empowerment. I was, more so than any game I have played, making small and large choices that seemed to impact not the world around me, but my emotions and feelings.

And that is the true transitory nature of ME2. Bioware is pulling along an entire industry and, for the most part, their customers up to new heights of interaction. As computing power, design techniques and modern writing swirl together, these types of games will become unstoppable.

ME2 is not without faults, but it is a better game than ME1 because it is more choice diverse. This diversity goes from combat to the people I like and don’t like.  It is empowerment wrapped up in diversity dipped in butter and served with bacon. I don’t’ feel like I’m in a story, watching the story, or reading a story.

I feel like I am the story.

While I agree about the interactive nature of this game, I gotta stick by my guns here.  You can still make these choices you pointed out and have a strong, well developed plot.  I don't see how having good rising action and a clear narrative would impede you from making the kind of decisions and playing the kind of character you want.

[Wolverfrog]

I had a few issues with the story too. I write in my spare time (nothing compared to what you do OP, just a few fan fictions and some unpublished short stories), and so I'm constantly analysing the plot subconciously.



The first Mass Effect was beautiful, one of the best sci-fi stories I'd ever seen/read. Mass Effect 2's plot was good by videogame standards, but by Mass Effect standards it fell a little short. It all just seemed to be about humanity, and it never even explained why humanity was so important. By the way Harbinger kept saying "We are your genetic destiny," I expected it to be revealed that the Reapers were actually once ancient humans, who had some sort of schism amongst themselves, between those who wanted to become machines and those who didn't. The latter would have been thrown back to the stone age in a war.



It would have made sense, and would have been a brilliant revelation.There should have been more twists in Mass Effect 2; perhaps at the end of the game, after the final dialogue with Illusive Man, the view would have switched to him as he contacted Harbinger, revealing that he was in cahoots with them the entire time.



And there should have been more epic moments which make you grin, like at the end of Mass Effect 1 where the Alliance fleet succeeds where the others can't in taking down Sovereign. Legion should have been on the Normandy when the Collectors boarded it, inactive. EDI would have activated him out of desperation. An amazing cutscene where Legion awakens and kicks some Collector arse, saving Joker in the process could have ensued.



Meh, it was still a very good plot, just not all that stunning. So much potential unrealised.

[justregret]

Anticitizen1 wrote...

justregret wrote...

fogofeternity wrote...

justregret wrote...

Seeing as how far out they are, I'd assume they would be awakened when the Relay became active.

Though
on that basis, why are they awake now? If the relay never became active
they'd never have woken up, and they'd just be happily hibernating
waiting for a call from Sovereign that will never come.

...And that's why I was surprised when they mobilized.

I'm sure they can communicate with each other.
Sovereign was probably like, "oh ****...hey, you guys. Remember those last dudes we took out? Yea they ****ed us over big time..."

"Mother----ers!"

Just my opinion, obviously yours differs; and it looks like yours is parallel to Bioware's grand scheme.

[Vanguard Alpha]

The story is quite clear:

>Experimentaion on species at a genetic level to decern harvest prospects to create more reapers.

>Reaper propergation method revealed, it takes millions to create a single reaper, the core represents the species it comes from, but the outer shell are all similar.

>Humans chosen becuase of genetic diversity and becuase Shepherd/humans was responsible for a reaper death, something that may have not happened for around 37mil years, Harbinger says himself its for there ascension and not destruction.

>Soverign was plan A, The collectors who have been observing and testing became plan B, create a new reaper, probably try for the citadel again but that failed which lead to plan C

>The reaper fleet is now 'active' and heading to the galaxy.



Also, it kinda explains what the reapers do:



They let the species expand, create mass relays so that they become dependant on them, so there colonies are easy to find, more expansion, more colonies = more reapers when harvested.



There is no big "conclusion" to this chapter with the exception of that it's kind of the calm before the storm, I can;t understand why some people don't get the plot line, did noe one else bother listening to the dialogue and talking to npcs.

[John Forseti]

justregret wrote...

But what's the difference between re-activating something and building a new one?

Whats the difference between stiching a load of body parts together, and having a baby?

justregret wrote...
If the new Reaper automatically recieves necessary information, shouldn't the old one as well?

I don't think you're getting me, the collectors could probably repair the Reaper enough to use it as a ship, but they can't bring it back to life, the thing in itself is dead. Apparantly the developpers aren't even decided on whether or not Shepard was really really really dead or not, and he's just a lump of grey matter, nevemind the distilled essense of billions and billions of sapient beings.

Also it might not be a case of the Reaper gaining the know-how it might be that the citadel itself will only respond to the Keepers or the Reapers. Afterall, if all you had to do was tell someone which button to push, then after discovering the protheans had interfered with the Keepers, why did Sovereign bother building a fleet with the heretic Geth? After indoctrinating Saren, a Spectre agent, he could have just had the guy walk right in and press the "Begin Galactic Genocide button".

justregret wrote...
If faster than light travel takes that much juice...  Well, those are some incredibly inefficient engines/ propulsion units.

And you base that on what, exactly?

[fogofeternity]

John Forseti wrote...

After indoctrinating Saren, a Spectre agent, he could have just had the guy walk right in and press the "Begin Galactic Genocide button".

I want that button to exist.

[justregret]

mjack234 wrote...

Trishann wrote...

mjack,

As a fellow writer I found myself nodding at your analysis, specifically about the villain. However, the main jist of it is flawed in several ways.

People keep pointing out the transitory nature of Mass Effect 2 due to its placement as a second act. There is some truth to this, certainly, but they, like you, are missing the mark.

Bioware is riding the edge of modern storytelling. This storytelling is similar, but quite different, than non-interactive fiction.

The premise of choice cannot be denied, although it is understated in these forums again and again.

I can choose to think Jack is a raving, psycho ****. Or, I can help her along until the point her walls come crashing down and we make tender woo hoo in my cabin. I can let my fascination for Miranda rule the day, or, the path I choose, sit in my cabin, alone, staring at the picture of Liara with a broken heart mixed with unfulfilled desire but of resolute, hardened sprit.

And that’s just one part of the game. The combat aspects of these personalities are legion (ha ha, I kill myself).  I dragged Miranda along in my party constantly because of Warp and Overload, and the fact her butt was just awesome. However, I also took the Professor because every time he lit something on fire, I giggled. The combination of us three was, in onto itself, epic.

And that was just my singular choice of a party on missions to find other squad members. In ME1, I took Tali and Liara with me everywhere and as a Solider, Engineer, and Adept; we were the Three Angry ****es who blew our way through anything. In ME2, I was forced, if I choose to gain loyalty, to diverse myself and, for one significant mission for each squad mate, take along someone I didn’t particularly care for combat wise. This was an eye opener. I had to adjust my play style. Think more.

These were my choices. The choices I could make in ME2 blow ME1 out of the water. It was like an embarrassment of empowerment. I was, more so than any game I have played, making small and large choices that seemed to impact not the world around me, but my emotions and feelings.

And that is the true transitory nature of ME2. Bioware is pulling along an entire industry and, for the most part, their customers up to new heights of interaction. As computing power, design techniques and modern writing swirl together, these types of games will become unstoppable.

ME2 is not without faults, but it is a better game than ME1 because it is more choice diverse. This diversity goes from combat to the people I like and don’t like.  It is empowerment wrapped up in diversity dipped in butter and served with bacon. I don’t’ feel like I’m in a story, watching the story, or reading a story.

I feel like I am the story.

While I agree about the interactive nature of this game, I gotta stick by my guns here.  You can still make these choices you pointed out and have a strong, well developed plot.  I don't see how having good rising action and a clear narrative would impede you from making the kind of decisions and playing the kind of character you want.

Despite all the steps forward, ME remains the better game, and story. While ME's story was far from perfect, it is still head and shoulders above ME 2. Alas, you can't really expect great stories from video-games, just moments of grandeur that has you, the player, in the shoes of someone that really matters. Who's decisions are pivotal to the continuation of your existence. ME outperformed many books in this matter, but it's still just a roll of the dice ( a few thousand times in this case). The greatest compliment to any form of entertainment, is that it got you thinking; and if this forum is any evidence, ME certainly did. ME was an amazing expierence for me, and it always will be. Maybe it's because I'm impressionable because of my youth, I don't know.

Congratulations Bioware!

John

[thisisme8]

I think a lot of things that Bioware was aiming for gets lost in the shuffle of recruiting. The thing that kept hitting me the most during the plot missions (and especially through conversations with TIM after seeing how helpful the Council was in ME1): People, humans, are vanishing. Your people, yet no one seems to care about it. No one is doing anything for all the thousands of people who are lost. TIM needs you to recruit a team to stop it. Yeah, Cerberus, the only group that really cares specifically about humans. Someone needs to fight for the lost.



I'm all fired up now...

[gamergamergamer]

I agree the main plot of this game is pretty pathetic. There is no onverall arc or development to it, youre told to get a team together and go on a suicide mission then you do it. The 2 or so ''story'' missions in between the beginning of the game and end dont further it in any way and are completley pointless, and the AI on your ship actualy does most of the heavy lifting of the plot in in final conversation before the last boss. To add insult to injury bioware tried to have a big twist at the end with the human reaper, but didnt explain what it was for or why it was there.

[FlurryJK2]

If only bioware could top the story of Baulder's Gate 2, now that was a story done right

[Trishann]

mjack234 wrote...

While I agree about the interactive nature of this game, I gotta stick by my guns here.  You can still make these choices you pointed out and have a strong, well developed plot.  I don't see how having good rising action and a clear narrative would impede you from making the kind of decisions and playing the kind of character you want.

Let me try a different track. What you wrote would have been spot on for a game such as Halo: Combat Evolved or Half-Life 2, clear narrative games with epic story lines. Half-Life 2 is unique because it was, from a writers point of view, clearly a better story than Half-Life, while Halo 2 sucked rocks for a compelling science fiction plot.

In a sense I feel you are comparing apples to oranges. When you have a clear narrative, you have less choice. When you have a fuzzy outline, you have more choice. There is a balance, I feel Bioware is trying to grasp the magic formula. I don't think they've nailed it, but I believe, from an interactive storytelling perspective, ME2 is better than ME1, and that makes ME2 a better game. Minus the villain part.

I believe ME2 suffers from technological limitations that prevented it from obtaining the narrative vision brought about by choice, and also a gaming culture crawling away from the simplistic story-telling past. To me, the ending of ME2 was more epic because I was more emotionally involved.

[Anticitizen1]

A lot of you guys are missing the OP's point.

[mjack234]

Trishann wrote...

mjack234 wrote...

While I agree about the interactive nature of this game, I gotta stick by my guns here.  You can still make these choices you pointed out and have a strong, well developed plot.  I don't see how having good rising action and a clear narrative would impede you from making the kind of decisions and playing the kind of character you want.

Let me try a different track. What you wrote would have been spot on for a game such as Halo: Combat Evolved or Half-Life 2, clear narrative games with epic story lines. Half-Life 2 is unique because it was, from a writers point of view, clearly a better story than Half-Life, while Halo 2 sucked rocks for a compelling science fiction plot.

In a sense I feel you are comparing apples to oranges. When you have a clear narrative, you have less choice. When you have a fuzzy outline, you have more choice. There is a balance, I feel Bioware is trying to grasp the magic formula. I don't think they've nailed it, but I believe, from an interactive storytelling perspective, ME2 is better than ME1, and that makes ME2 a better game. Minus the villain part.

I believe ME2 suffers from technological limitations that prevented it from obtaining the narrative vision brought about by choice, and also a gaming culture crawling away from the simplistic story-telling past. To me, the ending of ME2 was more epic because I was more emotionally involved.

I have to respectfully disagree with you.  I don't think the choices available to the player differed all that much from ME1 to ME2.  And ME1 was able to give you choices and still have a strong plot that evolved organically and drove you, the viewer, forward.

Allowing players to "chart their own path" does present challenges, but its always framed within the confines of your story.  A writer can still have a rising action, a climax, and a big reveal or plot twist without impeding a person's ability to choose what type of character they want to play.

Your decisions obviously affect your game experience, especially on the final mission.  However, none of that should affect the over-all plot.  Though Bioware gives the players a lot of leeway to play how they want, there's still a preferred path the game makers want you to take, and you basically HAVE to follow it ultimately.  And if we're forced to do that, it should be well plotted and thought out.

[Anticitizen1]

Trishann wrote...

In a sense I feel you are comparing apples to oranges. When you have a clear narrative, you have less choice. When you have a fuzzy outline, you have more choice. There is a balance, I feel Bioware is trying to grasp the magic formula. I don't think they've nailed it, but I believe, from an interactive storytelling perspective, ME2 is better than ME1, and that makes ME2 a better game. Minus the villain part.

Regardless of the choices you make throughout the entire game, we all end up at the Collector base, and we all make our way to the final battle with the Human-Reaper.
That changes for NO ONE.

No matter how long it takes to recruit your team, and what you do in between, we all end up on the dead Reaper to obtain the IFF.
That changes for NO ONE.

All these parts of the story are what the OP is referring to (but I don't want to put words in his mouth).
Instead of JUST finding the Human-Reaper and destroying it, why not have Harbinger take control of another Collector and explain a few things (example). I love ME2, and I think it is better in everyway than ME1...EXCEPT the story. Now I know it all may make sense in ME3, but as it is on its own, it could have been a lot better.
The game makes no attempt to explain the importance of what you find in the Collector base. All we have are assumptions, and no real cliffhanger.
The way the game ends, ME3 could very well choose NOT to continue with the events that happened in ME2.
And that is what bothers me about it.
I'm with the OP on this one.

Modifié par Anticitizen1, 05 février 2010 - 04:11 .