1679 réponses à ce sujet

[AndroLeonidas]

Sharn01 wrote...

I will chalk it up to really poor writing for the moment, probably some of the worst character writing and development I have seen in my life.

If Liara hits it off with the Drell I am not sure how I would react to that.

I'm hoping we might get some idea from the comics. If this does turn out to be the case I will probably not be waiting for ME3 to come out and I won't get the DLCs for quite a while. Not many things could ruin this game for me... this would be in the top 2

[sm00thie88]

So I'm on my third playthrough now, first one without a romance, second one with staying true to liara and third one with a non romance char from me1 who is going for tali. I made up my mind quite a lot and some of the arguments in this thread are pretty neat.

The problem is, and when I think of that over and over again, that liara is acting exactly the same - no matter if she was your li or not. Also i tried to believe, because i really like her back in the first game, that the character twist she made was for a good reason and will fall in place. But it is, like a lot of people already mentioned, just a 180° turn. There is no development at all, she puts up a cold mask for a reasonable manhunt, okay I got that one. But after she see's shepard again with the knowledge she put him back into life, there things really get messed up and go all down the wrong path. She seriously would need to act more confused, dropping her defenses and falling back into the sweet character we all loved in me1. But she doesn't, she moans some sh*t about beeing afraid you hated her but all of that does not make any sense.

The whole thing even starts hurting when you have a romance with tali. So i do on my playthrough now because i always liked her, rpg wise as a friend, in me1. But with the impressive character development she made in me2 and the super sweet scene where her feelings pop out in front of shepard - you gotta love her for that. At that point she really reminded me of liara and that's the clue. Seriously, if bioware will not clean that mess up they made with me1 li's (in this special case the liara thing), than i will give a fu*k about her and stick to tali - because she, as a character, got such a great development and in my point of view got from the "good friend you always wanna have with you" role to the "sweet innocent girl" you have to fall in love with in me2.



Just my 2 cents after thinking this hole dilemma threw and threw.

[Lycid]

WAIT WAIT, How did OP get a picture of Kelly as his avatar?? HOW TELL ME!

[CastroKathy]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Talon_Wu wrote...
The point of a trilogy -in my opinion- is to allow an arc of development for a story, and the included characters' progression through the story's trials. While there has been some change and growth in ME2, some things, like the ME1 romance, have stagnated.

This is the second biggest problem I have with ME2 (aside from how Liara was handled).  Instead of having part 1 introduce the characters and the universe, part 2 develop those characters their relationships and the big threat, then culminating in part 3 where you have the big spectacular climax with the enemy; we get part 1 introduce some characters and the enemy, part 2 forget about the old characters and introduce some new characters and introduce some minion type bad guys, part 3 climax with the enemy.

All the character development is missing.  Even if the sole focus of development was supposed to be on Shepard, that ended after the first 20 mins where he becomes part robot.  There were no big decisions to make or life/attitude changing moments that effected him.  It was just take this list of names, collect em like a bunch of Pokeman, then throw em at this randomly introduced villain.  If you want, bring some of em back alive, if not no worries.

Now, that said I thought Wrex, Tali and Garrus had great character development and really enjoyed seeing them again.  Its a small glimmer of what the game could have been if they had developed the LI's and their relationship with Shepard.

Exactly, think how much better a trilogy like "Lord of the Rings" would have been if Tolkien ignored everyone from the first book and introduced a whole new set of characters. After all we could just imagine our characters emotional progression, that would be much better. Ridiculous right? In so many ways ME2 has come the closest to making an interactive film of any game I’ve ever played, they need to take the final step and write the thing like a movie instead of a game. Or I guess, find a better way to marry the elements of game writing to the elements of good narrative storytelling.
I’ve said it before, but using the comic book to replace plot points in the game is bull. I need the game to stand on it’s own, if they want to use the comic to fill-in back story that’s fine, but it can’t replace key story elements. I’m never going to buy the comic, I play a femShepard and it’s too  off putting to see Shepard as a male.

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

As much as I hate DLC because 99% of it is a rip off I would much rather that than wait perhaps two years for ME3. I've already waited two years to continue my relationship with Liara. That's more than enough darn it!

Making us pay for something that Garrus and Tali fans got for free.

I cannot buy such a thing on faith, which I have precious little for Bioware right now. In the unlikely case the DLC should turn out to be about Liara, and not just some crap mission she sends us to do from her office, I'll need to be spoiled about it first. IF it is Liara once again having Shepard do her dirty work, or worse, rescue that stinking "friend" of her's, I won't waste my money.

This.  I'm holding out purchasing any DLC till we know it is worthwhile.  I've even put Return to Ostagar and ordering Awakenings on hold till we know what is in store for Liara.

[Nozybidaj]

CastroKathy wrote...
Exactly, think how much better a trilogy like "Lord of the Rings" would have been if Tolkien ignored everyone from the first book and introduced a whole new set of characters. After all we could just imagine our characters emotional progression, that would be much better. Ridiculous right?

At this point they should just make it a 4 game series.  Pick up where we left off at the end of ME1 at the begining of ME3, wrap things up in ME4, treat ME2 as the side mission it is instead of an actual part of the trilogy.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Nozybidaj wrote...

At this point they should just make it a 4 game series.  Pick up where we left off at the end of ME1 at the begining of ME3, wrap things up in ME4, treat ME2 as the side mission it is instead of an actual part of the trilogy.

Yes indeed a side mission that takes 30-50 hours... <_<

*sighs* I take it intelligence isn't one of your strong points, because maybe if you had some, you would've noticed how it does all fit as a main part of the story and no I can't be bothered to enlighten you because the fact you came out with such a stupid statement proves you shouldn't take up anymore of my time.

[Nozybidaj]

Wow, your well thought out arguments and enlightening use of logic and reason have completely swayed me. I am glad you have more than just insults and douchebaggery to add to the discussion. It is truly a breath of fresh air on an internet forum to run across an individual such as yourself. Well played.

[Illum.se]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

At this point they should just make it a 4 game series.  Pick up where we left off at the end of ME1 at the begining of ME3, wrap things up in ME4, treat ME2 as the side mission it is instead of an actual part of the trilogy.

Yes indeed a side mission that takes 30-50 hours... <_<

*sighs* I take it intelligence isn't one of your strong points, because maybe if you had some, you would've noticed how it does all fit as a main part of the story and no I can't be bothered to enlighten you because the fact you came out with such a stupid statement proves you shouldn't take up anymore of my time.

Lol. Everyone else is driving on the wrong side of the road, huh?

[Talon_Wu]

Actually, 4 games might be a more realistic timeframe to wrap up everything without leaving gaping plotholes. While I disagree that ME2 was a sidequest (many events point toward having strong influence on the climax), the storyline created even more questions that will require answers by the endgame. I don't see how they can wrap it up in one more episode without the story seeming rushed, even with the help of DLC.

As it is, if they factor in the choices that could be made in this game, as well as the first, the number of discs is going to skyrocket.

@CastroKathy: I agree completely that using comics to fill in backstory or detail interim events is fair game, not to use them as a crutch writing-wise. We get Thane giving us his life story in creepy close ups, but Liara can't say what she went through to get Shepard's body back? Even after Omega-4, when you have time to chat? Really?

[Mox Ruuga]

Sharn01 wrote...

I will chalk it up to really poor writing for the moment, probably some of the worst character writing and development I have seen in my life.

If Liara hits it off with the Drell I am not sure how I would react to that.

Not the worst ever... But just about the worst i've seen in a Bioware game.

If she has an affair with the desert lizard, while obsessed about recovering Shepard... Yeah, it would be the time to write off the character at that time. Perhaps she hit her head on a bulkhead during the escape from Normandy? Brain damage can cause dramatic personality shifts...

Nah. Just poor writing.

[Daeion]

Kilshrek wrote...

Just read Redemption #2 and I'm so seeing our Drell interloper falling for Liara. Whether or not she reciprocates is something to be revealed in the next two issues but I see a worrying trend. If she cheats on my Shep... I'll.. I'll cheat on her back! Then shoot the sneaky lizard (hopefully we can) in ME 3.

Of course, it's titled Redemption for some reason or another,,, Dunno why she'd feel so guilty about Shep dying, not like any other crew member was too fussed about it..

Sigh, this has me worried about ME3, I mean we were promised that if we stayed true to our ME LI's we would be rewarded.  If Liara is off falling for a Drell within a month of me being dead and her being on a mission to get me back to Cerberus can ressurect me.....SCREW YOU BIOWARE!!!!

[Daeion]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

All I know is that if she ends up falling for this feron dude in ME3 or a DLC... I'm going to be putting a serious hurting on whatever Drell I find wandering the universe!

I did a second play through specifically so I could get the extra dialogue incase it had any future reprocusions and because I lost Thane and I wanted the perfect play through.  If Liara and Feron become an item Thane can stay dead for all I care.

[Daeion]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I just loaded up the post game and went to Illium in the hope for something new now that THE MISSION IS OVER and there's nothing in Shepard's way now. But nothing but the same old dialogue. :-(

Yeah, since they allowed for continuation after the end of the game it would have been a great place to put in side missions to reunite with your former LI's or move forward with new ones.  Hopefully we can get something like that via cerberus network and then they can consider the DLC choices to be a part of what happens for ME3.

[Nozybidaj]

Daeion wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

I just loaded up the post game and went to Illium in the hope for something new now that THE MISSION IS OVER and there's nothing in Shepard's way now. But nothing but the same old dialogue. :-(

Yeah, since they allowed for continuation after the end of the game it would have been a great place to put in side missions to reunite with your former LI's or move forward with new ones.  Hopefully we can get something like that via cerberus network and then they can consider the DLC choices to be a part of what happens for ME3.

I'm hopeful they are going to add DLC for this, but it better be really damn good.

[Daeion]

implodinggoat wrote...

Liara definitely got the worst treatment of any of the ME1 characters in ME2. The first time I played through I missed the dialogue option where she tells you that she gave your body to Cerberus because she "couldn't let you go" and it depressed the hell out of me. I really liked her character in ME1 and when I track her down in ME2 it seems like she doesn't feel anything for Shepard any more. I mean at least Ashley and Kaiden have a strong reaction to you; but Liara almost seems like she doesn't feel anything and to me that's way more brutal.

I liked some of the ME2 love interests (aside from Zero who wouldn't take the hint that I didn't have the hots for her psychotic ass); but none of them could beat out Liara. I hope she gets the attention she deserves in ME3.

For some reason I get the feeling that they forgot she was a potential LI in ME and didn't realize it until it was too late so all they could do was add in an awkward kiss.

[Srslydude01]

Daeion wrote...

For some reason I get the feeling that they forgot she was a potential LI in ME and didn't realize it until it was too late so all they could do was add in an awkward kiss.

Ya, I just went back and beat Mass Effect for the first time with Liara as the LI, and even though there wasn't all that much there with conversations and everything, there defintely was a connection between Shepard. She really grew on me, of I took her everywhere once she was added to the squad. It is kind of a let down that there wasn't more to follow that up with in the second one. Instead she is a hardcore information broker which is really odd considering how "innocent" she was in the first one studying ruins for so long and being alone. Maybe Asari just move on easier or being an information broker is really fun idk.

Also I recently looked at a comic of her "runnin' train," the way I like to put it, on a batarian and two turians. Not only is it hawt because Liara is amazin', but it shows Liara as you would expect her to be instead of a mellowed out information broker. I guess times just change and maybe she adjusted to that. She would have been a much more interesting LI than any of the female LIs in the second one.

[Mox Ruuga]

Daeion wrote...


Sigh, this has me worried about ME3, I mean we were promised that if we stayed true to our ME LI's we would be rewarded.  If Liara is off falling for a Drell within a month of me being dead and her being on a mission to get me back to Cerberus can ressurect me.....SCREW YOU BIOWARE!!!!

This combined with the complete shambles that is her ME2 appearance has me thinking that the intent was to cool players towards Liara rather than make us like her more. Or perhaps get the people who didn't like the meek and shy scientist to like the new "badass" information broker. Whatever the intent, most people seem to think her scenes were poorly handled, and some have already written the character off as a complete loss due to the poor writing and unbelievable character develepment. I think she can be recovered, but there needs to be some issues cleared up when she and Shepard meet next.

I wonder, when the devs begin to talk to the fans again in the future, will they tell us to "wait and see, you don't know the full story" or "pity you didn't like it, acceptable losses" when questioned about Liara?

[Ultra Prism]

Remember how LIara was curious about Protheans, i wish i could told her that Collectors are scum bags of Protheans ... she would be more pissed at Reapers then lol

[juxtaposedjoker]

I wasn't surprised by Liara's hardening once I knew about the comic and that hard to get to line of dialog but I agree with the OP that BW dropped the ball in terms of Shepards reaction. At least Liara was being recorded. One could extend this to email as well. So she didn't make contact because of that or out of her fear that Shepard would hate her. There are some things you'd rather not know until you're forced to.



But for Shepard it was if he/she woke up the next day after the Normandy was destroyed. Shep didn't have time to move on so why not even a quick convo with Kelly about Liara? Hell, why not even a quick convo about the fact Shep missed the last two years! The lack of emotional response to the Liara love interest and Sheps plight makes Shep robotic which is never a good thing for the protagonist of an RPG.

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Daeion wrote...


Sigh, this has me worried about ME3, I mean we were promised that if we stayed true to our ME LI's we would be rewarded.  If Liara is off falling for a Drell within a month of me being dead and her being on a mission to get me back to Cerberus can ressurect me.....SCREW YOU BIOWARE!!!!

This combined with the complete shambles that is her ME2 appearance has me thinking that the intent was to cool players towards Liara rather than make us like her more. Or perhaps get the people who didn't like the meek and shy scientist to like the new "badass" information broker. Whatever the intent, most people seem to think her scenes were poorly handled, and some have already written the character off as a complete loss due to the poor writing and unbelievable character develepment. I think she can be recovered, but there needs to be some issues cleared up when she and Shepard meet next.

I wonder, when the devs begin to talk to the fans again in the future, will they tell us to "wait and see, you don't know the full story" or "pity you didn't like it, acceptable losses" when questioned about Liara?

I would assume that is the response we'll get.  If they cared what we thought they wouldn't have railroaded the character so hard in ME2.

After having played my MaleShep/Liara through the game (really had to work at forcing myself through to the end on that one) I wasn't even going to play my FemShep/Liara, I figured why bother.  But I had already imported it and picked up the first couple of squadies so I figured what heck and played up till I met Liara again.

The whole scene is just so, well, bad.  Most of the other reunions were really well done, meeting Garrus again and seeing where he went after ME1, seeing Tali again and seeing her development, getting a warm greeting from Wrex and finding out about what he's been up to, even getting yelled at by Kaidan at least had some emotion to it and proper responses from Shepard.

Then we get to Liara and it just sticks out like a sore thumb.  The writing was horrible, the character is so completely different it is impossible to suspend disbelief enough to accept it, Shepard is so completely unemotional and apathetic about the entire scene, and then we don't even have a chance to respond to anything that isn't completely lame and out of character.  Not to mention the fact we have no option to acknowledge the fact that there ever was a romance in ME1.

If the intent was to cool players off to Liara, I'm sure they more than succeeded in most cases, though obviously for a lot of others it just left them completely dissatisfied and ticked off at the writers rather than at Liara.  Though I doubt that was the intent, it feels much more like something that was just kinda tacked on right at the end of development without much thought put into it.  The complete lack of appropriate responses and the fact that they all but forgot she was an LI in ME1 kinda points to the fact that they just didn't bother putting effort into it.  I did get the feeling you had that they probably didn't even think about her being an LI till it was about ready to ship then tacked on the "kiss" really quick just to add "something".

[Nozybidaj]

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

I wasn't surprised by Liara's hardening once I knew about the comic and that hard to get to line of dialog but I agree with the OP that BW dropped the ball in terms of Shepards reaction. At least Liara was being recorded. One could extend this to email as well. So she didn't make contact because of that or out of her fear that Shepard would hate her. There are some things you'd rather not know until you're forced to.

But for Shepard it was if he/she woke up the next day after the Normandy was destroyed. Shep didn't have time to move on so why not even a quick convo with Kelly about Liara? Hell, why not even a quick convo about the fact Shep missed the last two years! The lack of emotional response to the Liara love interest and Sheps plight makes Shep robotic which is never a good thing for the protagonist of an RPG.

I could have accepted her being "hardened", but doing a complete 180 in personality is beyond my ability to accept.  Having her mature a bit and become bitter toward the Shadow Broker is one thing, but if she went through all of that for Shepard her reactions to him once they are reunited are completely unbelievable, and as you said not to mention Shepard's reaction to seeing her again.

[juxtaposedjoker]

Nozybidaj wrote...

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

I wasn't surprised by Liara's hardening once I knew about the comic and that hard to get to line of dialog but I agree with the OP that BW dropped the ball in terms of Shepards reaction. At least Liara was being recorded. One could extend this to email as well. So she didn't make contact because of that or out of her fear that Shepard would hate her. There are some things you'd rather not know until you're forced to.

But for Shepard it was if he/she woke up the next day after the Normandy was destroyed. Shep didn't have time to move on so why not even a quick convo with Kelly about Liara? Hell, why not even a quick convo about the fact Shep missed the last two years! The lack of emotional response to the Liara love interest and Sheps plight makes Shep robotic which is never a good thing for the protagonist of an RPG.

I could have accepted her being "hardened", but doing a complete 180 in personality is beyond my ability to accept.  Having her mature a bit and become bitter toward the Shadow Broker is one thing, but if she went through all of that for Shepard her reactions to him once they are reunited are completely unbelievable, and as you said not to mention Shepard's reaction to seeing her again.

I'm giving BW the benefit of the doubt with Liara's hardening due to the fact I have not read the comic yet.  Once I have read all the comics pertaining to Liara's trama while getting Shepards body then I will pass final judgement.  I will say that there were bits of the old Liara in the scene with Shepard.  It's just hard to noitice them when you're initial reaction is WTF?! 

There did need to be more even if it were just a brief dialog.  Even if BW did nothing else something as simple of this would have worked:

Shepard:  Liara, I still...

Liara: Not here.  Not now.

Shepard:  Do you?

Liara: Yes or No

Just some friggin' brief mention of what the status of the romance is from Liara would have been nice!

[CheesesackIII]

The way I see it, the actual objective of the encounter was to make Liara less appealing and encourage you to pursue other options.
Bioware has already said that you will be rewarded for staying true to your ME 1 love interest in ME 3. There's no point in a reward if you don't have to work or do something hard to get it. The entire game is geared towards encouraging you to cheat.
Taking Liara as an example, let's look at it more closely. Chances are, if you romanced her in the first game, you're attracted to the shy, bookish, awkward type and/or aliens. In ME 2, they give you Tali who has kind of become what Liara was in the first. She's shy and sweet yet still fiesty and corageous and she's an alien. It's quite a safe bet to say people who were attracted to Liara in ME 1 will be attracted to Tal in ME 2 (obviously this isn't true of everyone).
Thus, since you've got Tali with you as a squadmate and you can pursue a romance with her, lots of people would abviously choose that over the cold, emotionless reception you get from Liara. In that way Bioware, being a bunch of evil dicks, nudge you towards the cheating option.
I completely agree that the way they handled ME 1 LIs, especially Liara, was poor. It almost looks like they only included these token Kameo's because they promised that they would, and because people need some reminder that the person they were with in the first game it still alive and at least vaugely interested. Let's face it, none of the three reunions are important to the story. They could just as easily have said that Kaiden/Ask was taken by the Collectors and thus is unavailable until the very end when you have a chance to free them. Similarly, it didn't need to be Liara that you got the information off on Illium, it could be any information broker or any number of other options.
I think they were trying to strike a delicate balance between reminding you that staying true is still an option, but making it seem less appealing than the alternatives. Bioware has a history of screwing with people's heads and not always making choices as obvious as they seem. Whether you agree that this was the right way to go about it is a different matter. With regards to balance, I'd say they got it almost right with Kaiden and Ash. Their reasons for turning their back on you are believeable, their absence makes sense, and you get an e-mail that reminds you it's not completely over. With regards to Liara, I agree they screwed up. For a start, they shouldn't have had her just sitting there, accessible to talk to at anytime. It just makes it even less believable that neither her nor Shepard mentions their past romance. Secondly, her change of character was dissapointing and unbelievable. If it is just a plot device to make it harder to remain true to her, it's understanable why they did it, but it could have been handled a lot better.
That's my opinion anyway.

Modifié par CheesesackIII, 07 février 2010 - 09:24 .