1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Nozybidaj]

scyphozoa wrote...

As for the issue that Liara gets less time than Ashley/Kaidan. Liara gets significantly more cameo-time in game, including a quest and a permenant location for the entirety of the game. You cannot discuss the Liara romance, but she has a significantly greater presence in ME2 than ashley or kaidan.

Having a larger presence in the game than Ash/Kaidan isn't exactly a great accomplishment.  Most of the store vendors have a greater presence in the game and are happier to see you. <_<

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 07 février 2010 - 10:14 .

[bjdbwea]

General Stubbs wrote...



My biggest problem with the scene was Shepard's lack of emotion.

Playing that scene again with a female Shepard, I had the feeling as if Shepard was looking quite angry and maybe a bit sad during the whole scene. As if she couldn't believe either how that conversation went. But I actually think that impression had more to do with the lighting on the face. In any case, there simply needed to be one simple line of conversation. That's really the inexcusable main problem.

[Sharn01]

Very few people are complaining about the quantity but the quality.

I mentioned in a previous post that it would have better to never meet Liara in person at all. You could meet an informant of her's that takes her place on Illium and tells you how happy she will be to know that you alive, and tells you about what happened and her hunt for the Shadow Broker.

Late in the game Liara could send you a mail after she finally catches up with her informant or even calls you when you are about to go through the Omega 4 relay if you romanced her and stayed loyal, this would be a million times better then the craptastic excuse they call writing that is in the current game, and would still keep her out of the suicide mission.

[bjdbwea]

Right, I hadn't thought about that until now. So many NPCs just turn around and vanish without a trace once you've completed their quests or they've spoken their piece (Ashley/Kaidan), but she continues to sit around. If she'd been given a proper reason to quickly disappear, then at least it would make sense that some things are left unsaid (though a follow-up email would be mandatory). The information about Thane and Samara could just as well be given by someone else. There are many possibilities to handle the situation better, and with not more work for the developers, it really seems they just didn't care.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 07 février 2010 - 10:39 .

[Benethyarr]

Absolutely agree with the OP, this was one of the weakest elements of ME2 in my eyes. I deliberately avoided any and all spoilers before playing ME2 and so I was very disappointed to find Liara was just a cameo - and even more disappointed to discover that there was no real acknowledgement of her relationship with Shepard.

Even a few lines of dialogue here and there, letting you as Shepard express your feelings for her, would have made a huge difference. Not allowing you that is just lazy.

Also: the complete lack of same-sex romance options is pathetic. So if you played a female Shepard and romanced Liara you not only have no option to acknowledge or continue that relationship, but there are no other women you can pursue. So sex with aliens is fine, but same-sex relationships are too exotic/shocking/immoral? WTF?

(and yes, I'd support male-male relationships as well, why shouldn't someone play a male Shep and romance Garrus or someone, I bet there are a lot of people out there who'd love that option)

Modifié par Benethyarr, 07 février 2010 - 10:48 .

[Sharn01]

While I agree with you on the same sex thing, there are lots of other topic's to talk about that in and they always seem to generate in to flame war's.

It is just my opinion, but i would like to keep this topic civil, and about Liara, perhaps one day a Dev will spot it and it will give them the needed incentive to do a better job on future content.

Do not take this post the wrong way, like I said, I agree with you, but I dont want the flame war in here, it will be a heated topic for a few days if that happens and then quietely fall to the back pages, so please, no more posting on that subject and ignore any flamer's who pop in to reply to you.

[Benethyarr]

Fair enough, if I spot any replies that I feel like arguing with, I'll politely ask them to bring the fight to another thread

[Wintermist]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I don't normally create rant topics like this, but wth?

Granted, all the ME1 love interests all got the extremely short end of the stick, but why is Liara so far behind what even Kaidan and Ashley get? It's asinine.

The only unique things a Liara romancer gets is Liara's picture on your desk (meaningless), and an awkwardly shot "kiss" upon entering her office. After that "kiss" it makes no difference to anything whether or not you romanced Liara, and absolutely nothing is said about it. It almost feels as if BioWare completely forgot that Liara was romanceable and threw together that awkward "kiss" as an "Oh, ****!" moment.

If you romanced Kaidan or Ashley, though, you actually get content pertaining to the romance...

1) You can tell Kelly how you feel about Kaidan/Ashley.
This isn't much, admittedly, but it acknowledges the romance and your Shepard's stance. It gives you the opportunity to voice how you feel about your ME1 love interest. You can tell Kelly that it was 2 years ago and things are over, essentially breaking up with them. Or you can tell Kelly that you still have feelings for them, which solidifies your Shepard's feelings and gives you hope that you might reunite. There are also other options in that convo to voice your Shep's opinion about the ME1 LI.  So why doesn't Liara have one of these conversations? Why can't Shepard tell anyone how she feels about Liara? Why is it swept under the rug so completely?

2) Kaidan and Ashley send you an email.
This isn't much either, just a few paragraphs, but it is way more than Liara fans get. Kaidan's email tells your Shepard how he felt about your night together and how he feels about you. I assume Ashley's is the same, though I've not read the actual email. These emails further the relationship acknowledgment, regardless. They say that your ME1 LI still cares a lot for Shepard, and goes towards giving the player hope that the relationship isn't over.
Where's Liara's email? You couldn't write three paragraphs from Liara that says something similar? What the hell? Liara fans get absolutely nothing!


Unless the rumors about Liara DLC are true and there is something in that episode dealing with the romance, then what am I supposed to think about my Liara romance? There's absolutely 0 acknowledgment of it in game other than the meaningless photo and the awkward "kiss" scene. Why is her romance completely unvoiced by everyone, including Liara AND Shepard?!

Hopefully the shoddy treatment of ME1 LI's in ME2 doesn't hint at how crappy they will be in ME3. At this point I expect complete and utter failure at giving us any sense of fulfillment.

Yeah

[jojon2se]

Liara's new cold demeanor does come across comically awkward and this is probably very much in accordance with writer's intention, to show us that she behaves against her true nature and not just because she lacks experience with the dark side. Even taking into account the possibility that she is putting on an act, she comes across as rather unpleasant - for this path of speculation I'll write that down as a result of stress. Either Shepard senses that and plays along, or (s)he's put off and writes Liara off as a changed individual, both leading to that distant attitude, or display thereof.



Then there's that bit of dialogue that so many of us miss and which softens up the impression of Liara2.0a a bit. This is one of those rather common dialogue tree options that for no good reason disappears when picking another. In this case picking "Liara's needs" top left, removes our one, bottom left, topic concluded - can't see why.

This is much the more annoying when there are always other, pointless, branches that give no useful exposition and that you can not "get rid of" and often reappears under new headings, leaving characters sound like a broken record - it doesn't help that dialogue playback skipping is tied to the same button as picking dialogue items.



Here's hoping for a larger DLC, dealing with Liara and the Shadow broker, sometime halfway between now and ME3...

(..maybe with a little amusing scenario, wherein we find Shepard alone with a clutch of hatching salarian eggs.)

[Mox Ruuga]

jojon2se wrote...

Liara's new cold demeanor does come across comically awkward and this is probably very much in accordance with writer's intention, to show us that she behaves against her true nature and not just because she lacks experience with the dark side. Even taking into account the possibility that she is putting on an act, she comes across as rather unpleasant - for this path of speculation I'll write that down as a result of stress. Either Shepard senses that and plays along, or (s)he's put off and writes Liara off as a changed individual, both leading to that distant attitude, or display thereof.

They should have at least given our Shepard's a chance to blow up or become sad in the scene. If random shopkeepers seem to be more glad than his/her lover, something is wrong. And something is wrong with the writing if the main character is too dull or cold by default to comment.

Then there's that bit of dialogue that so many of us miss and which softens up the impression of Liara2.0a a bit. This is one of those rather common dialogue tree options that for no good reason disappears when picking another. In this case picking "Liara's needs" top left, removes our one, bottom left, topic concluded - can't see why.
This is much the more annoying when there are always other, pointless, branches that give no useful exposition and that you can not "get rid of" and often reappears under new headings, leaving characters sound like a broken record - it doesn't help that dialogue playback skipping is tied to the same button as picking dialogue items.

If only this bit had been a romance exclusive... or been expanded further for those who romanced her... But no. And even this bit was deliberately made difficult to find, for the reasons you mention.

Once the devs start getting active on the boards again, we should politely but stubbornly question them about the intents and perceived merits of the ME1 LI scenes. Especially the hatchet job of writing that was used to demolish Liara as a character. I don't imagine the answers, if we even get them, will be any more satisfactory than what we've got since the development of ME2 started.

[Nuclear]

I agree that the encounter with Liara isn't thought out properly enough. If you were in a romance all she does is give you a kiss, then she just carries on like nothing ever happened between you. At least with Ashley/Kaiden they actually admit that they loved you and send you an email further showing that, with Liara its just one simple kiss with nothing showing her feelings afterwards.
  I also don't really like her 'new' personality. Cold, distant, she even seems to enjoy threatening people. Defininetly a change from her shy, bookish persona in ME1. They may have an explanation for the change (what happened to her friend & Shepard with the Shadow Broker) but it still doesnt really fit well with me.
  I hope they end up releasing a dlc about Liara, so we can see more of an insight with her and hopefully more emotion. I just don't think they have really done the romance between Liara and Shepard as well as it could have been done, like with Ashley/Kaiden. But maybe that was the plan all along, maybe they will show more in a dlc or in ME3.             

[Urmar]

Given the comic book treatment and the "shep stares at her portrait before the suicide mission" scene, I think it's fair to say that Liara isn't going anywhere. There are obviously a lot of things we don't know ... we are given some hints and teasers about what happened to Liara during Shep's "down-time," but not any explanation that resolves the romance or gives us a chance to fix her problem. We are left to speculate ...



My only consolation was to view ME2 as a Act II i a three-act structure. As in, the "boy loses girl" phase of the "boy meets girl" structure ...

[Daeion]

Nozybidaj wrote...

CastroKathy wrote...
Exactly, think how much better a trilogy like "Lord of the Rings" would have been if Tolkien ignored everyone from the first book and introduced a whole new set of characters. After all we could just imagine our characters emotional progression, that would be much better. Ridiculous right?

At this point they should just make it a 4 game series.  Pick up where we left off at the end of ME1 at the begining of ME3, wrap things up in ME4, treat ME2 as the side mission it is instead of an actual part of the trilogy.

I agree, and I think the worst part of all of this is that BW is developing even more new squad mates for ME3 so it's just going to be more of the same unless they turn ME3 into a game that takes a minimum of 50 hours to paly through and 100 to complete everything, which I'm ok with actually.

[Nozybidaj]

Daeion wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

CastroKathy wrote...
Exactly, think how much better a trilogy like "Lord of the Rings" would have been if Tolkien ignored everyone from the first book and introduced a whole new set of characters. After all we could just imagine our characters emotional progression, that would be much better. Ridiculous right?

At this point they should just make it a 4 game series.  Pick up where we left off at the end of ME1 at the begining of ME3, wrap things up in ME4, treat ME2 as the side mission it is instead of an actual part of the trilogy.

I agree, and I think the worst part of all of this is that BW is developing even more new squad mates for ME3 so it's just going to be more of the same unless they turn ME3 into a game that takes a minimum of 50 hours to paly through and 100 to complete everything, which I'm ok with actually.

I would assume ME3 is going to ignore most character development so that everyone can fit into generic "red shirt" roles so that who you do or don't have alive won't break the story.

[Daeion]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

At this point they should just make it a 4 game series.  Pick up where we left off at the end of ME1 at the begining of ME3, wrap things up in ME4, treat ME2 as the side mission it is instead of an actual part of the trilogy.

Yes indeed a side mission that takes 30-50 hours... <_<

*sighs* I take it intelligence isn't one of your strong points, because maybe if you had some, you would've noticed how it does all fit as a main part of the story and no I can't be bothered to enlighten you because the fact you came out with such a stupid statement proves you shouldn't take up anymore of my time.

I take it being an ass is all you are good at...  You're right, it does fit as a main part of a story but it still feels like more of a side mission then actuall progression of the story.  When ME2 ends you are in the same spot as ME1, the reapers are still coming and no one believes they are real except for shep and the crew.  When i play ME2 I feel like I'm grocery shoping instead of actually cooking or enjoying the meal.

[Mox Ruuga]

Nozybidaj wrote...

I would assume ME3 is going to ignore most character development so that everyone can fit into generic "red shirt" roles so that who you do or don't have alive won't break the story.

Well, the good thing for us Liara fans in that scenario are her character shields. The same goes for the Virmire survivor, tho I'm almost certain their story roles will overlap somewhat.

If I had more faith in Bioware, this fact would make me rather confident about Liara's role in ME3. But we've all seen who they cater to and it ain't us. Hell, they went out of their way to transform Liara into something unrecognizable and unlikeable, instead of just ignoring her.

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

I would assume ME3 is going to ignore most character development so that everyone can fit into generic "red shirt" roles so that who you do or don't have alive won't break the story.

Well, the good thing for us Liara fans in that scenario are her character shields. The same goes for the Virmire survivor, tho I'm almost certain their story roles will overlap somewhat.

If I had more faith in Bioware, this fact would make me rather confident about Liara's role in ME3. But we've all seen who they cater to and it ain't us. Hell, they went out of their way to transform Liara into something unrecognizable and unlikeable, instead of just ignoring her.

LOL, yeah I actually would have prefered they completely and totally ignored her after the end of ME1 and she just randomly reappeared come ME3 to what we have now.

[Mox Ruuga]

Nozybidaj wrote...

LOL, yeah I actually would have prefered they completely and totally ignored her after the end of ME1 and she just randomly reappeared come ME3 to what we have now.

Agreed. Ignoring her completely would have been preferable to the wrecking that was inflicted on her character and the Shepard/Liara romance.

[Daeion]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Daeion wrote...


Sigh, this has me worried about ME3, I mean we were promised that if we stayed true to our ME LI's we would be rewarded.  If Liara is off falling for a Drell within a month of me being dead and her being on a mission to get me back to Cerberus can ressurect me.....SCREW YOU BIOWARE!!!!

This combined with the complete shambles that is her ME2 appearance has me thinking that the intent was to cool players towards Liara rather than make us like her more. Or perhaps get the people who didn't like the meek and shy scientist to like the new "badass" information broker. Whatever the intent, most people seem to think her scenes were poorly handled, and some have already written the character off as a complete loss due to the poor writing and unbelievable character develepment. I think she can be recovered, but there needs to be some issues cleared up when she and Shepard meet next.

I wonder, when the devs begin to talk to the fans again in the future, will they tell us to "wait and see, you don't know the full story" or "pity you didn't like it, acceptable losses" when questioned about Liara?

I'm fine with her becoming an information broker, I mean she's gotta fill two years, I'm just not sure about her being a really good one in that amount of time regardless of how much it's like archeology and I'm for sure not ok with how she reacts when she finally sees shep and how shep reacts in turn.

This is part of the problem that happens when you introduce new chars in the middle of a story, either they aren't developed properly or they take too much away from the development of those in the first sotry.  Star Wars is an example of a good way of doing it.  You had your original cast in New Hope, Empire kept the same cast while introducing only 3 characters of interest, Lando, Boba, and the emperor, and these characters didn't detract from the development of the original cast of New Hope, and Jedi saw the culmination and conclusions of all the stories and since they hadn't written out the party from New Hope and had continued to evolve them in Empire, it was well done in Jedi.

Modifié par Daeion, 07 février 2010 - 03:42 .

[AndroLeonidas]

I'm not buying the stay loyal thing either. How do you stay loyal to Liara after the total lack of emotion shown between the two and not even a peep about their relationship. Not even an email. Then they give you Miranda and Tali with incredible back stories and very good development and you fall for one of them. It would have been so much easier to remain loyal with just one or two words from Liara.

[jojon2se]

...which is probably the very point.

[AndroLeonidas]

jojon2se wrote...

...which is probably the very point.

They don't want you to stay loyal??? lol

[jojon2se]

Well, I'm sure they have gone out of their way to tempt you. It's easy to be the good guy when the whole world is cheering you on - in hardships true character and loyalty is tested.

[Botwa]

Going to disagree with ya mate.  If Liara was your LI in ME1, you can be certain she hasnt moved on.  She was 106 when she she hooked up with Shepard.  So she's still barely an adult as far as Asari go.  Also Shepard was her first.(mostly likely only)  She said quite plainly that she doesnt do flings, that mating is a deeply personal and changing experience with the Asari.  What is more likely is that she doesnt see the need to drop everything she is doing to fling herself at your feet.  Asari live a thousand years, so perhaps in her mind she has plenty of time to hash things out.  One last bit, she stated on quite a few occasions, that she isnt good with people, perhaps her inexperience has left her a bit unprepared for proper reaction. 

Gabey5 wrote...

umm she moved on. aliens live for a thousand years. a one night fling ain't a thing. but to humans who live 100 tops...yeah it means more