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[Mox Ruuga]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

What's this about Woo and the main forum? Link? (Yes.. I'm lazy.. and at work, so I'm doing this stealth-like. )

http://social.bioware.com/[url=http:/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/1018802

[Jeremy Winston]

Thanks. and you're right. There's no point for the devs to come on here to defend (or apologize) for these decisions. And they certainly can't tell us about ME 3, DLC, or even offer assurances at this early date.

[Nozybidaj]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Thanks. and you're right. There's no point for the devs to come on here to defend (or apologize) for these decisions. And they certainly can't tell us about ME 3, DLC, or even offer assurances at this early date.

I don't think it would be such a bad thing for them to come here and say "You know what, we can totally see why you think we dropped the ball.  There may be DLC on the way to make it up you."  

[Jeremy Winston]

Yes, but what if there isn't? If there IS DLC on the way, then we'll be happily surprised. No downside if they don't tell us.



If they tell us, then the self-hype starts and the DLC won't be able to stand up to it's own hype. And what if it gets canceled? Delayed? No point at all in telling us ahead of time.



In fact, isn't new DLC coming out in a week or two? Did they tell us what it would be?

[Nozybidaj]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Yes, but what if there isn't? If there IS DLC on the way, then we'll be happily surprised. No downside if they don't tell us.

If they tell us, then the self-hype starts and the DLC won't be able to stand up to it's own hype. And what if it gets canceled? Delayed? No point at all in telling us ahead of time.

In fact, isn't new DLC coming out in a week or two? Did they tell us what it would be?

The Hammerhead I believe.

[Jeremy Winston]

Great! I'm looking forward to it.

[Daeion]

Nozybidaj wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

They really should never have introduced so many new companions. It's only natural that it would take away development time from others. It seems widely accepted as the main reason that they didn't want to discourage new players who wouldn't know the old companions. If that's the case (and I think it is), it's more than probable that ME 3 will again do the same. All that we should realistically hope for at this point is that the relationship with Liara plays ANY role at all, maybe at least in your particular ending (if the game features relevant different endings at all). Just look at all the other changes they got away with, people still bought the game.

I agree, going with new companions was a mistake but keeping old ones wouldn't be any more confusing to new people than new characters are.  Someone new to the game in ME2 doesn't have any idea who any of the characters are regardless if the characters already know Shepard or not.  They would all require the same sort of introdutction for a new person.

I agree that they added too many new cast members and they are going to do it again for ME3.  I can already see how the ME2 cast members are going to be relegated to ME type cameos with no development.  BW has kind of backed themselves into a corner at this point.  Right now between the two games there are a total of 16 potential squadmates and all but 1 of them could have died at some point so how do you justify spending a lot of time developing each character the way they should be when they may never been seen.  Add to it that they are supposedly adding at least one more squad mate for ME2 via dlc and new squadmates in ME3 and I don't expect characters to get their due.  It's possible that Liara, Ash, and Kaiden might get more development now that they didn't go on the suicide mission but I wouldn't expect Garrus and Tali to get as much since there's a good chance they may have died.  Personally I feel they should have kept the original cast and added 2-3 new members for you to recruit and then just have the endgame be an all or nothing, either everyone lives or everyone dies.

Modifié par Daeion, 08 février 2010 - 09:51 .

[Nozybidaj]

Daeion wrote...
Personally is feel they should have kept the original cast and added 2-3 new members for you to recruit and then just have the endgame be an all or nothing, either everyone lives or everyone dies.

I think that would have been an excellent idea while allowing for actual character development in ME2 for the ME1 cast instead of having two episodes of the trilogy be centered around introducing brand new characters.

[Daeion]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Actually.. I found the ME2 LIs to be fairly compelling. They could have spent more time on it, but there are a lot of characters. I enjoyed all the back stories and felt close to all of them.

I mean.. what are you looking for?

I'm looking for a compelling reason as to why people outside of Tali and Garrus would sign on for a suicide mission.  I mean I didn't even need to convince Thane to join my squad, he just did, and Samara was like I've been hunting this person for a long time and it's personal, but she's perfectly fine just handing it over to some strange human that she's never met before...

[Jeremy Winston]

A lot depends on the approach BioWare takes. If they truly treat this as part 3 of a story, then newcomers will just have to suffer the storyline learning curve.



And, if it's part three of a story, we already have a large set of supporting characters. No need to make new ones. If you killed off a bunch of them, too bad. Don't import.

[Jeremy Winston]

Daeion wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Actually.. I found the ME2 LIs to be fairly compelling. They could have spent more time on it, but there are a lot of characters. I enjoyed all the back stories and felt close to all of them.

I mean.. what are you looking for?

I'm looking for a compelling reason as to why people outside of Tali and Garrus would sign on for a suicide mission.  I mean I didn't even need to convince Thane to join my squad, he just did, and Samara was like I've been hunting this person for a long time and it's personal, but she's perfectly fine just handing it over to some strange human that she's never met before...

Thane told you why.  He was dying and wanted to make up for his life. 

Samara (my interpretation) sees the collectors as the ultimate in wickedness, and she is  a Justicar.  (A good question would be why Morinth goes on it, though.)

Grunt goes where the fighting is and needs to justify his existence.

Maranda knows what's at stake, and she's crazy-loyal to TIM, for whatever reason. 

Jacob?  That I don't know.  I see his motivation similar to Shepards.  "Because it needs to be done."

Zheed does it for the money.

Mordin does it for the scientific challenge as well as the big picture.

Legion does it because it needs to be done and he's not particular concerned with dying.

[Daeion]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

I think ME2 had just as much spark, if not more as ME1. Try to see it as someone who never played ME1 and compare it that way.

I'm replaying ME1 to get some new combinations of decisions/LIs, and it doesn't feel the same as the first time I played it.

The issue for ME1 players is that ME2, while it continued the general storyline, did NOT continue our individual Shepard story lines. It's almost like it was a new Shepard. I think that is why the 'spark' isn't there. We had expectations that our romantic environment from ME1, even if underplayed, would be present and supported.

I've thought about this before, I honestly think if I had never played ME1 that ME2 would probably be my favorite game of all time. 

I can't go back and unplay ME1 though.  I think this really highlights just how much BW let down (at least some) ME1 fans.  I can appreciate the fact that they wanted to accomodate new fans but it should not have come at the expense of fans of the previous title.  I could accept the reduced role of ME1 LI's if the explainations had been sufficient and that our choices from the first game had been properly acknowledged.  

The fact that the clearly wanted you to forget about your ME1 choices and in cases such as Liara completely railroaded you into not even being allowed to recogonize the relationships that made our Shepards unique to us in the first game is the major focus of my disappointment.

There are so many very simple things they could have done to please fans of the ME1 LI's while still upholding the direction that they had chosen to go that it feels like they simply didn't care enough to even give us even a single line or two of fanservice.

I agree and I've said it before when referencing other things that I've been dissapointed with about ME2, if I hadn't played ME and I didn't know any better I'd think this was possibly the greatest game ever, but having played ME I know better.

[Jeremy Winston]

I'm not saying ME1 is better. I think ME2 is a better game. It just not as good as it would have been if I hadn't played ME1. (Which is what both of you said, I think.)

[Daeion]

Deluge82 wrote...

I'm sorry if this was said before, I'm feeling lazy and don't want to shift through 27 pages.
first "I want ma Liara back!"
Second, I have a feeling that the comic will explain a good bit of where Liara is at currently. Also Liara is worried about being recorded speaking with Shepard, and says that at some point. Given the nature of Illium (Don't sign anything!) I think she may be in over her head and is trying to protect Shepard, or can't appear to be involved too deeply with him. The short kiss, well even Asari can get overly promotional at times. Further reason to lead me to this speculation is TIM says shes working for the shadowbroker, Liara says she hunting him down. Yea TIM is a minipulative..... (clears throat) but he hasn't exactly lied to Shepard before, just left out key information to get what he wanted done.
So personally I'm rather interested in seeing how this little sub-plot unfolds. A interesting mechanic that can be added in would be like Alister or Leliana in DA:O, where through choosing the good (paragon) or bad (renegade) choices there will inevitably be when she is introduced, be it DLC or ME3, Liara will have either a mature but still ME1-ish Liara quality, or the darker persona we have seen in ME2.

Well thats my two cents, sorry if it was repetitive again.

I believe she says she is worried about being recorded, but then she talks openly about hunting the SB and his minions so she can't be too conecerned.

[Nozybidaj]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

I'm not saying ME1 is better. I think ME2 is a better game. It just not as good as it would have been if I hadn't played ME1. (Which is what both of you said, I think.)

Hmm, I don't think that is what we said.

Let me be clear here.

I think ME2 is a great game when taken into account as a single entity and not as part of a trilogy.  In direct comparison there are a lot of improvements that were made.  Combat, classes, I personally liked the streamlined inventory (though it was killed by having such a limited selection), I found the digital acting to be superior, the voice acting to be excellent, and the cinematic quality of the cutscenes and dialogue to be the best I've ever seen in a BW game.

When I look at it as part of a trilogy, as the second chapter following a game I absolutely loved for many reasons, the primary of which was the characters and the story, ME2 just becomes a huge letdown because my immersion in the universe and my suspension of disbelief are completley shattered by the unrealistic and out of character portrayls of my favorite ME1 characters and the railroad job that was done on their relationships and my choices from the first game.  The main plot itself is extremely weak, and the fact that it is basically another chapter that does nothing but introduce new characters while ignoring any sort of character development for the old ones left me feeling the game was very shallow.  Every reason I rank ME1 as one of my all time favorite games was removed in ME2.

If that is what you meant, then yes we said the same thing.

[Schneidend]

Yeah, those devs really dropped the ball with those ME LIs. The way they didn't immediately get on their knees and orally service Shepard the instant they were reunited was just shabby writing. Character development is dumb, and I hate it.

[Nozybidaj]

Thanks for the bump. Woot!

[Nimander]

Schneidend wrote...
Yeah, those devs really dropped the ball with those ME LIs. The way they didn't immediately get on their knees and orally service Shepard the instant they were reunited was just shabby writing. Character development is dumb, and I hate it.

Fallacy #1: Excluding the Middle
Fallacy #2: Personal Attack (or maybe Straw Man)

I don't think anyone's said that the character needs to get on her knees and orally service Shephard.  

The issue is that she doesn't provide any sort of roleplay that indicates any sort of romance option other than the brief hug/kiss at the start.  She's very cold.  And there's -no- information on why.  There's a lack of closure involved that makes things difficult.

Continue to troll, however.  If nothing else, it'll let me keep tuning my Greasemonkey scripts.

[bjdbwea]

He's probably just one of those who think romance = love scene and five minutes of no pew-pew = bad. BioWare certainly doesn't seem to disagree (anymore).

[DigitalMaster37]

I just realized, there is like 3 Liara threads going. We are quite the group eh? good to be amongst you fellow Liara fans! At least the most of you seem to be.

[Nozybidaj]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

I just realized, there is like 3 Liara threads going. We are quite the group eh? good to be amongst you fellow Liara fans! At least the most of you seem to be.

Liara is too awesome to be contained in one thread.

[Daeion]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I'm going to guess that in 2 years when ME3 comes out we aren't going to be praising BW, we will instead be cursing them for once again forcing the new squad mates and new LI's on us instead of actually developing the original cast.  It's not hard to read a book, play a game, or watch a movie and see the difference between good and bad writing.  We simply want what those who romanced Ahs/Kaiden got.

That's why we are here now, to make sure BW understands the disappointment in ME2 so the can correct these mistakes in ME3.

I understand that, but apparently the person I quoted didn't.

[Daeion]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Daeion wrote...
Personally is feel they should have kept the original cast and added 2-3 new members for you to recruit and then just have the endgame be an all or nothing, either everyone lives or everyone dies.

I think that would have been an excellent idea while allowing for actual character development in ME2 for the ME1 cast instead of having two episodes of the trilogy be centered around introducing brand new characters.

At this point it will be all three episodes because apparently they stated somewhere that they are already working on new squad mates for ME3...

[Schneidend]

Nimander wrote...

Continue to troll, however.  If nothing else, it'll let me keep tuning my Greasemonkey scripts.

It's character development. That's all the reasoning needed. It'd be weird if everything was suddenly completely okay that you died and have now come back. Moreover, Liara has changed, and she's had two years to dedicate herself to her new mission. She's doing it for YOU, because she cares about YOU.

Shepard can't convince EVERYBODY that they're acting crazy. He/she just isn't that charismatic to make two years of obsession go away, and frankly I'd find it odd if he/she were that charismatic. It'd be some kind of main character "natural leader" mind control.

[Daeion]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Actually.. I found the ME2 LIs to be fairly compelling. They could have spent more time on it, but there are a lot of characters. I enjoyed all the back stories and felt close to all of them.

I mean.. what are you looking for?

I'm looking for a compelling reason as to why people outside of Tali and Garrus would sign on for a suicide mission.  I mean I didn't even need to convince Thane to join my squad, he just did, and Samara was like I've been hunting this person for a long time and it's personal, but she's perfectly fine just handing it over to some strange human that she's never met before...

Thane told you why.  He was dying and wanted to make up for his life. 

Samara (my interpretation) sees the collectors as the ultimate in wickedness, and she is  a Justicar.  (A good question would be why Morinth goes on it, though.)

Grunt goes where the fighting is and needs to justify his existence.

Maranda knows what's at stake, and she's crazy-loyal to TIM, for whatever reason. 

Jacob?  That I don't know.  I see his motivation similar to Shepards.  "Because it needs to be done."

Zheed does it for the money.

Mordin does it for the scientific challenge as well as the big picture.

Legion does it because it needs to be done and he's not particular concerned with dying.

I udnderstand they all have their reasons, but it just felt too easy, show up, tell them your going after the collectors, and bam, ok lets go die....  I 'm sorry but if someone showed up and asked me to go on a suicide mission, even for the greater good, I'd need a little more convincing.