1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Thaddeus Mynor]

I like what they did with they ME1 Love Interests. Its been two years, relationships become estranged. To ask or expect that these people not grow and change in that time is ridiculous. Liara, like Garrus i'm sure, probably had something really big happen in that time span that shook and changed her personality & outlook. I liked how it was presented because it seemed a lot more adult and sadly real, and fit perfectly with the mood of the game. I'm sure that staying faithful will pay off in ME3, but in ME2 just because Shepard literally walks back into their life, doesn't mean they should stop their character development, just like that for him. (Its just something to think about.)

Modifié par Thaddeus Mynor, 09 février 2010 - 10:50 .

[Nozybidaj]

So you approve that for fans of the ME1 LI's an entire chapter of the trilogy was removed from their story? I find that a rather selfish view not only by you but by BW as well. I don't find any of the new LI's appealing, the story did not progress us anywhere beyond where the end of ME1 left us. What was the point of ME2 for my Shepard?

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I like the idea of where they are taking Liara, I think it's got a ton of potential. Unfortunately it really doesn't make sense with the way it's presented in game.
It's tough, because there are really multiple Liaras possible in ME2. The Liara that was Shep's lover in ME1 is not the same as the Liara that was not. A renegade Shep would have a different influence on her than a paragon Shep.
Liara, as presented, makes the most sense for a renegade Shep that didn't romance her. There are two many missing pieces otherwise.
First off, revenge alone does not seem to be a good motivator for her character. She really needs something else to keep her going. I would think that the hope Shep could come back to life would really be a big part of it in certain cases (especially if she loves Shep).
I don't buy the anger - I can see her being very guilty, very lonely, paranoid, etc. But if she's angry it has to be at herself more than anything. This can manifest as anger at the Shadow Broker, but she's self-aware enough to realize this, I think.

A major issue I have is that Shep's return ruins a lot of her motivation. I absolutely love the idea she is terrified of Shep hating her. But you also have to figure she's been anticipating and hoping for Shep's return for two years.
There needs to be a whole lot of doubt in her character, especially if Shep does not hate her for what she did. She still clearly really cares and should really want to reunite with her love. It's really inconceivable the relationship would not come up after she tells Shep "I couldn't let you go" - that's just poor writing. It really feels like the writers want the players to go to the new love interests, but it's extremely, extremely clumsy. It doesn't feel natural at all for her to let Shep go after 2 years without saying "Come back alive" at the very least.

They really missed their chance for some awesome development here and it's a shame. Hopefully they explore it in DLC.

I agree with everything except liking the idea of where they took her.  As you explained quite well, she has no real motivation for her actions.  Even if we were willing to accept the reasons she gave us in game for why she is they way she is those reasons are gone now that Shep is actually back.

It was just a hack job to keep her out of the game that I hope they are able to rectify with an appropriately written expansion.

[Driveninhifi]

Thaddeus Mynor wrote...

I like what they did with they ME1 Love Interests. Its been two years, relationships become estranged. To ask or expect that these people not grow and change in that time is ridiculous. Liara, like Garrus i'm sure, probably had something really big happen in that time span that shook and changed her personality & outlook. I liked how it was presented because it seemed a lot more adult and sadly real, and fit perfectly with the mood of the game. I'm sure that staying faithful will pay off in ME3, but in ME2 just because Shepard literally walks back into their life, doesn't mean they should stop their character development, just like that for him. (Its just something to think about.)

I agree with this for Ash/Kaidan. The problem is that Liara knows Shep is coming back. Judging by her clear obsession for Shep that needs to be a major driving force for her character. It's not like Shep just waltzes back into her life - she's been expecting that to happen. 

And character development is great, but it has to both make sense and be shown to the player. Really, there are a finite number of possibilities that could turn the most calm character in ME1 into what she is portrayed as in ME2. The old adage is "Show, don't tell." They didn't do this. They tell the player a few vague things that may or may not make sense (based on information the player doesn't have), then limit the possibilities of what you can ask.
For me, her transformation is hard to buy because it has to be centered on Shep but that also means it needs to be tempered by the hope Shep will return. Feron can definitely be a part of it (and guilt would be a powerful motivator for her character), but it really only makes sense for Shep to be the one to elicit such a strong reaction from her.
It was handled quite poorly and really stands out since the rest of the game is done so well.

[Mondo47]

While I might have been a little sarcastic about it in one of the Ashley-threads, I have to say that I was impressed with how it played out on the whole. My Femme-Shep ended up with Liara (due to Kaidan getting nuked and me just not liking him that much), and while two years is a blink of an eye to an Asari, she had to do something ethically-dodgy to someone she loved; something she was expecting maybe to bite her down the line. She's afraid and feeling guilty. Plus she has had to make other choices that she obviously can't really handle... Liara isn't really a convincing sell for standover man; it's like a girl guide coming at you with chainsaw - you'd laugh at her before she carved your legs off instead of wetting yourself.

The dialogue in their scenes could have had some more emotion invested in them and a bit more depth, sure, but that awkward kiss said it all to me. Shep should have had the chance to tell her it could be alright again (if that was desired at least). Hopefully this can be resolved in DLC/ME3, especially as my Femme-Shep had no other romances develop.

[Driveninhifi]

Nozybidaj wrote...

I agree with everything except liking the idea of where they took her.  As you explained quite well, she has no real motivation for her actions.  Even if we were willing to accept the reasons she gave us in game for why she is they way she is those reasons are gone now that Shep is actually back.

It was just a hack job to keep her out of the game that I hope they are able to rectify with an appropriately written expansion.

I didn't think she was very interesting in ME1. She needed more. Now, I definitely feel like they took it too far and made her too dark (the anger doesn't fit so much). I also feel they did a terrible job of justifying the change.

Making her do things she doesn't like is interesting, but I think it needed to be made clear this is what is happening.
Imagine this:
Feron sacrifices himself for Liara and Shep while recovering the body. Liara gives the body to Cerberus, etc. The Shadow Broker is enraged and he's really not the type of guy that lets people cross him and live. So Liara has to fight for her life. She has no choice but to do so or die, and so she decides that, hey, you mess with me, my love, my friends - I'm going to take you down.

That goes a long way towards explaining why she acts the way she presented. It just needed to be made clear in the game. It can also explain why she can't come with Shep. She could really want to, but she knows the Shadow Broker will escape. She knows Feron died for her and Shep and she couldn't live with the guilt because she did the easy thing for her (namely, reuniting with her lover). If Shep is paragon, he/she'd understand this, and want to honor Feron's sacrifice as well. If Shep is renegade, he/she probably wants revenge for taking his body and hurting Liara. So it fits, but I think the game really needed to let you explore this in dialogue.

[Lord Atlia]

Nozybidaj wrote...

So you approve that for fans of the ME1 LI's an entire chapter of the trilogy was removed from their story? I find that a rather selfish view not only by you but by BW as well. I don't find any of the new LI's appealing, the story did not progress us anywhere beyond where the end of ME1 left us. What was the point of ME2 for my Shepard?

QFT and depending how they handle ME3 things can get messy fast.  I don't think people realise that the events of ME2 had no real impact on the story, the galaxy is not any better off than they were and Reapers are not worse off (Didn't one of the developers say that we need to think of MEs like Indiana Jones movies, which isn't a good thing imo).  They kill off Shepard, resurrect him, and have all his high ranking contacts ostracize him in a rather forced manner.  All ME2 really did is introduce a whole new cast.  Tieing the Reapers to the Collectors seems a bit forced to create the illusion of cohesiveness.  

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I think the game really needed to let you explore this in dialogue.

Agreed, all around.  There are many scenarios that I as a diehard Liara fan would have accepted as reasons for her being written out of ME2.  What we received though wasn't even close to one of them.  If the scene had been written better, if it had been explained properly, if we had the chance to dig a little deeper into why she is the wya she is, if it had included options for players that had her as an LI that are appropriate to recognize that, I think I would have been totally fine with it and not feel the need to come here everyday and put the screws to the writers.

That didn't happen though. <_<  The whole scene lacked any sense of emotion or drama and the characters in game reactions to each other were completely unbelievable to me as someone who had romanced her in ME1.

As for her being uniteresting in ME1?  While I obviously disagree, I would say that ME2 would have been the perfect opportunity to take those characters from ME1 (truthfully while well done introductions they were really short on development) and really flesh them out as full characters. 

I mean, that is what the second act of a trilogy is for after all, character devlopment.  Put the characters and their relationships through trials so they can grow and develop.  It is such a lost oppurtunity to make those characters even more special and a larger part of the franchise than they already are.  Such a waste.

Unfortunately I think fans of the new crew are going to end up feeling much the same way come ME3 as individual character development all around is going to be highly over shadowed by the threat of the reapers and the story of defeating them.  In the end ME as a franchise is going to have a metric ton of interesting characters that are never fully developed or explored and it is going to stand out as one of the major points of disappointment for me personally.

I think ME1 had set them up to do something truly epic in the gaming industry and the choices they've made have led them down a path to never fully realize that potential.  Still will be a great franchise, but not epic.  Personal opinion and all.

[Driveninhifi]

Well, they they did make Liara more interesting in ME2 People are talking, no? I personally don't think their presentation works, but they needed to do SOMETHING with her.



Of course, the fact that ME2 doesn't do anything to move the larger plot along is a bigger deal. The only thing you can take from ME2 into ME3 that could really have an impact (besides certain people dying) are:

Reapers make more Reapers with the things they harvest (which is kind of obvious)

The Geth aren't unified

The Collector base may give you tech to help the fight (depending on if you destroy it)



The rest of the game really doesn't matter - it feels like a side story that was made into part 2. Now, I really love the experience and I think it's great fun. But once part 3 comes out all the events in 2 are kind of moot.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Well, they they did make Liara more interesting in ME2 People are talking, no? I personally don't think their presentation works, but they needed to do SOMETHING with her.

No.  It would be one thing if we were actually talking about Liara and the impact she had on our Shepard.  Instead all of the Liara "talk" is centered around her presentation in the game and why the writers did what they did.  They took the emotion out of the game and into the forum.  I don't see that as a good thing.  My emotions should be channeled into the game experience, not ripping me out of it.

[Driveninhifi]

Yeah, I agree there.

I mean, take a look at the comics. If you read any review of the comics the first thing anyone mentions is something along the lines of the characters not acting "in character." As a writer, I'd be pretty worried if that was everyone's immediate reaction.



Though I do think they could have made her presentation feel much more natural had you been allowed to go into more in-depth conversations.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Yeah, I agree there.
I mean, take a look at the comics. If you read any review of the comics the first thing anyone mentions is something along the lines of the characters not acting "in character." As a writer, I'd be pretty worried if that was everyone's immediate reaction.

Though I do think they could have made her presentation feel much more natural had you been allowed to go into more in-depth conversations.

Agreed.  Too late to fix it though.  I'm surprised that given BW's pride in being such great story tellers that the way the scene was scripted and executed ever made it into a final cut.  It is not up to par with what I would consider their standards.

[Sharn01]

Thaddeus Mynor wrote...

I like what they did with they ME1 Love Interests. Its been two years, relationships become estranged. To ask or expect that these people not grow and change in that time is ridiculous. Liara, like Garrus i'm sure, probably had something really big happen in that time span that shook and changed her personality & outlook. I liked how it was presented because it seemed a lot more adult and sadly real, and fit perfectly with the mood of the game. I'm sure that staying faithful will pay off in ME3, but in ME2 just because Shepard literally walks back into their life, doesn't mean they should stop their character development, just like that for him. (Its just something to think about.)

It may have been over two years for Liara, but for Shepard its been a couple months at best.  Ignoring the fact that Liara fought to get your body in the hopes of bringing you back, it is still completely logical for Shepard to try and see if there is any romance still going on between her and Liara, instead of sitting there like a dope not saying a word.

[Rock Mu]

Well there are only two issues of Redemption out so far, but my guess is that it has less to do with a romance with Feron (the drell friend that she metions in ME2) & more to do with the fact that she probably has to make a choice between saving Shep's body and saving Feron at the end of the comic series.

The second issue already shows that she feels like she has to redeem herself for not being able to do anything when Shep died. So I would imagine the guilt from a selfish act like leaving a friend to die in order to get a corpse (on the off chance that a shady secret organization could bring your dead lover/friend back to life) would be pretty enormous. And I could definitely see that changing a person's demeanor.

But it's all theory until the last two issues come out and we see exactly what happened.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

.

Just wanted to add toward Driveninhifi , even if you don't share the Liara love the rest of us do, I appreciate you adding to the discussion.  It is nice to see someone on this forum with a different view of things when they are not just blatanly trolling.  I hope you continue to add to the discussion.

[DigitalMaster37]

Rock Mu wrote...

Well there are only two issues of Redemption out so far, but my guess is that it has less to do with a romance with Feron (the drell friend that she metions in ME2) & more to do with the fact that she probably has to make a choice between saving Shep's body and saving Feron at the end of the comic series.

The second issue already shows that she feels like she has to redeem herself for not being able to do anything when Shep died. So I would imagine the guilt from a selfish act like leaving a friend to die in order to get a corpse (on the off chance that a shady secret organization could bring your dead lover/friend back to life) would be pretty enormous. And I could definitely see that changing a person's demeanor.

But it's all theory until the last two issues come out and we see exactly what happened.

The very thought of her sacrificing her friend who helped her all for me, makes me love her even more. To be bashed like she is on the boards is funny, because she has given so much for Shepard including her mother. Liara has lost alot to help Shepard.

[FlashedMyDrive]

All I'm getting from this entire thread is...



"BAAAW! I don't care about story telling and am way too impatient to learn more before complaining. I like making unjust speculation and complain about them before they even happen. Mass Effect is entirely based on the Romances and if they don't go my way, I hate the game."



1.)Chill out, LI's do not encompass the entire game.

2.)If you have payed attention, it was already stated that old Li's wouldn't have a very large part in the second game and that they will have a bigger place in the third.

3.)Stop all the speculating. You complain about things that haven't even happened yet. If ME3 does not allow for in-depth romances with old LI's, THEN you can complain, not before it even comes out.

4.)Be patient. Sure you are disappointed now, but ME3 may turn it around.

5.)Bioware has already had the story mapped out. (Of course they have changed certain things due to fans). You really have yet to understand the full-length of the events in ME2. You can hate the story after ME3 comes out.



Flame me all you want, but it just had to be said. People keep making out Bioware as a bunch of jerks who make conscious attempts to screw over their fans. Bioware is not so stupid as to totally cut out ME1 romances. You'll just have to wait 'till the third.

[Conway044]

[quote]Nozybidaj wrote...

So you approve that for fans of the ME1 LI's an entire chapter of the trilogy was removed from their story? I find that a rather selfish view not only by you but by BW as well. I don't find any of the new LI's appealing, the story did not progress us anywhere beyond where the end of ME1 left us. What was the point of ME2 for my Shepard? [/quote]

Saving the human colonies in the Terminus systems from being havested by the collectors, turned into human paste and made to become part of a lame terminator reaper.

Seriously dude, the Normandy is not the Love Boat.  Saving the human race should come in a little higher than who you're hooking up with...

edit:  Off topic, but I really enjoyed her quoting her mom when she was trying to frighten her disgruntled client.  I thought that was well done, the words, the inflection, the different voice.

Modifié par Conway044, 10 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[Driveninhifi]

FlashedMyDrive wrote...

All I'm getting from this entire thread is...

"BAAAW! I don't care about story telling and am way too impatient to learn more before complaining. I like making unjust speculation and complain about them before they even happen. Mass Effect is entirely based on the Romances and if they don't go my way, I hate the game."

Certainly there is some of that here. But there are also reasons why the presentation of Liara in ME2 does not work well from a storytelling standpoint. I think it's valid to put forth reasons as to why her transformation is not totally believable as criticism as long as it's thoughtful (which is what I've attempted to do, myself).

[Nozybidaj]

General Stubbs wrote...

I wouldn't even have that much of a problem with Liara's cold attitude if there was actually an emotional scene that went with it.
Honestly, even though BioWare will most likely be putting out a major Liara DLC they still could have made the scene an emotional reunion.
If Liara temporarily turned into a cold person to potect herself in her current situation, Shepard should have been able to break down her protective barriers by confronting her about their love for each other and comforting her about the situation.
They could have included a long emotional coversation between them both about what has happened, ending (depending on what you say) with Liara finally treating Shepard like she did in the first game.
This would also present an opportunity for Liara to reaffirm her love to Shepard while still allowing the massive Liara expansion we are all waiting for. (With more romance included!!!)
BioWare did not have to make her cold to Shepard to make way for the DLC, as it would have worked with Liara already loving Shepard.

Agreed with pretty much everything there.

[FlashedMyDrive]

Driveninhifi wrote...

FlashedMyDrive wrote...

All I'm getting from this entire thread is...

"BAAAW! I don't care about story telling and am way too impatient to learn more before complaining. I like making unjust speculation and complain about them before they even happen. Mass Effect is entirely based on the Romances and if they don't go my way, I hate the game."

Certainly there is some of that here. But there are also reasons why the presentation of Liara in ME2 does not work well from a storytelling standpoint. I think it's valid to put forth reasons as to why her transformation is not totally believable as criticism as long as it's thoughtful (which is what I've attempted to do, myself).

Well, when people like you can discuss things logically and in a civil manner, it's fine. But this is more directed to people who post in that manner.

I can understand why people are kind of annoyed by Liara's/Kaiden's/Ashley's appearance and disappearance and it could have been played out better. I didn't like how it was done, but by the same token, I'm not raging over Bioware's decision. People seem to act as this is a disaster that ruins the ME series and yet have not played the 3rd installment. Who knows, ME3 may make you go, "Oh, that makes sense" or "I'm glad they did this". Or maybe it will make your despise the romances.

My main point is that people can discuss the issue, but ultimately it will end with, "We'll just have to wait". I just want people to stop jumping to outragous conclusions about Bioware and ME3.

Modifié par FlashedMyDrive, 10 février 2010 - 02:11 .

[Unit-Alpha]

LordLucians wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

umm she moved on. aliens live for a thousand years. a one night fling ain't a thing. but to humans who live 100 tops...yeah it means more

From this alone it tells me you didn't really pay attention to the game at all, aside from all the pretty colors and actions scenes lol so don't try and leave comments about a game you clearly didn't fully explore or enjoy. These people go through alot of work to make a great game like this and they deserve the credit for that, and not to have someone that just ran through the game just trying to beat it XD

^This

[JockBuster]

Let's see, in ME they kissed .. made love (ie had sex, Shepard's comment (Renegade) "Ready for ROUND TWO?" .. Liara giggled, Joker 5 minutes to Ilos.

ME 2; So where's the kid? 2 years should have been enough time.