1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Unit-Alpha]

JockBuster wrote...

Let's see, in ME they kissed .. made love (ie had sex, Shepard's comment (Renegade) "Ready for ROUND TWO?" .. Liara giggled, Joker 5 minutes to Ilos.
ME 2; So where's the kid? 2 years should have been enough time.

Pregnacy is not guarenteed even with the Asari. I'm pretty sure they get to decide if they actually want to get pregnant.

[Gravity Bun]

Liara was my romance in ME1 and yeah, it was disappointing in a way, I just figured that maybe as it's 2185 AD that relationships (especially between aliens) are more casual than some humans would like. It's weird how she didn't acknowledge a lot though, I had Garrus with me at the time - it would've been nice if she said "hi" to him or Tali.

[jbauck]

FlashedMyDrive wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

FlashedMyDrive wrote...

All I'm getting from this entire thread is...

"BAAAW! I don't care about story telling and am way too impatient to learn more before complaining. I like making unjust speculation and complain about them before they even happen. Mass Effect is entirely based on the Romances and if they don't go my way, I hate the game."

Certainly there is some of that here. But there are also reasons why the presentation of Liara in ME2 does not work well from a storytelling standpoint. I think it's valid to put forth reasons as to why her transformation is not totally believable as criticism as long as it's thoughtful (which is what I've attempted to do, myself).

Well, when people like you can discuss things logically and in a civil manner, it's fine. But this is more directed to people who post in that manner.

I can understand why people are kind of annoyed by Liara's/Kaiden's/Ashley's appearance and disappearance and it could have been played out better. I didn't like how it was done, but by the same token, I'm not raging over Bioware's decision. People seem to act as this is a disaster that ruins the ME series and yet have not played the 3rd installment. Who knows, ME3 may make you go, "Oh, that makes sense" or "I'm glad they did this". Or maybe it will make your despise the romances.

My main point is that people can discuss the issue, but ultimately it will end with, "We'll just have to wait". I just want people to stop jumping to outragous conclusions about Bioware and ME3.

But it's not outrageous - it takes a lot of time, effort, and awesomeness to build up good will and trust with an audience, and as an admitted BioWare fan-girl (BioWare has made ALL of my favorite games), they have that from me.  At the same time, it only takes a few mistakes, if they're big enough, to destroy all of that hard work and effort, and if people feel the Liara-handling was that bad, that's just not outrageous.  Perfectly valid opinion.  I can totally understand being uninterested in ME3 as an RPG fan with ME2 as the latest example of the promised "your decisions actually affect things!"

With ME being an RPG/Shooter mix, it's going to attract RPG fans and Shooter fans, who just aren't looking for the same things in a game.  I tend to find shooters boring and repetitive, and I'm a huge RPG fan, and no one does RPGs better than BioWare - which is why ME2 is kind of a let-down.  ME2 is the superior shooter, but ME1 is the superior RPG.  For me, the difference between a good RPG and a Great BioWare RPG is how much I care about the supporting cast, and that's really where ME1 does a fantastic job.  I really liked those characters.  The characters in ME2 are also really good - which is why I do think ME2 is replayable - but the carryover of LIs from ME1 to ME2 (a big selling point for the RPG-focused fan) is tragically, painfully, horribly bad.

Yes, I totally get and buy into the idea that they wanted to make sure the ME1 LI survived and makes it to ME3.  I totally get that, in order to do that, they all had to have reasons to not join up with Shep on the Suicide Mission.  I even get that, two years passing, these characters will have changed.

But ... ummm ... seriously?  For Kaidan/Ashley you get "Sorry Shepard, but I hate/distrust Cerberus more than I love/trust you.  Despite the fact that you're a freakin' hero and saved the Galaxy from the Reapers and the Council don't even believe the Reapers exist, and you've been dead for two years and it couldn't possibly be your fault that Cerberus is the organization that brought you back ... I just can't find it in my heart to give you the benefit of the doubt."

For Liara, you get "Sorry Shepard, but terrible bloody vengeance doesn't wreak itself.  Go save the universe without me: I have stuff to do."

My "willing suspension of disbelief" is just not that willing, no matter how much of a BioWare fan-girl I am.  Or maybe it's BECAUSE I'm such a BioWare fan-girl: I expect better from them.  I find these reasonings jarring, problematic, and kind of lame.  And, yes, I felt the Liara port was particularly bad: as the 2nd act of a 3-act romance, at least Kaidan/Ashely had a fight with Shep ... and the fact that a romance existed could be discussed ... but there's no fight with Liara.  There's no break-up, or let-down, or ... well, 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance troubles, unless you count "absolutely nothing happens" as a 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance.

Which is why ME2 really REALLY begs for a Liara-DLC.  Not only is the big sucking void where some kind of relationship development should be desperately in need of a remedy, but Liara really is the only character from ME1 with a real and true ME2 through-arc besides Garrus and Tali who get to be squad members (seeing as how Liara's actions in the comic books make ME2 possible, she's far more of a significant character in the overall story than Kaidan/Ashley are).  My best hope here is that the Liara stuff in ME2 is THAT lame because it's going to be fixed with a Liara DLC that can only reasonably come out after the comic book.

Otherwise, I'll regard ME3 as a shooter with an interesting overall galaxy-saving story and some "meh" RPG aspects, that I can totally wait for until I find it in the discount bin.  And, really, if that was what interested me, I'd just finally break down and play Halo - all three installments are already out.  No waiting.

[speedy111280]

I'm desperately hoping that we'll get some sort of DLC dealing with Liara once Redemption finishes and something that at least acknowledges my Shep's relationship with her because Liara was left out in the cold compared to Ash/Kaidan. I was rather upset that no one acknowledge's my Shep's relationship with Liara not even after Illium. Joker doesn't even make a crack and he more than anyone should know since he interrupted us in ME1.

Modifié par speedy111280, 10 février 2010 - 03:05 .

[WilliamShatner]

FlashedMyDrive wrote...

All I'm getting from this entire thread is...

"BAAAW! I don't care about story telling and am way too impatient to learn more before complaining. I like making unjust speculation and complain about them before they even happen. Mass Effect is entirely based on the Romances and if they don't go my way, I hate the game."

I think we've been as patient as anyone else.  We waited two years, and we deserved bettter.

2.)If you have payed attention, it was already stated that old Li's wouldn't have a very large part in the second game and that they will have a bigger place in the third.

Actually no.  They specifically stated when it was apparent that they wouldn't be in your squad that even though they weren't going to be squad mates they were going to have large roles.  Now the game has come out and the truth is Conrad Freakin' Verner got a bigger role.

[Nozybidaj]

jbauck wrote...

But it's not outrageous - it takes a lot of time, effort, and awesomeness to build up good will and trust with an audience, and as an admitted BioWare fan-girl (BioWare has made ALL of my favorite games), they have that from me.  At the same time, it only takes a few mistakes, if they're big enough, to destroy all of that hard work and effort, and if people feel the Liara-handling was that bad, that's just not outrageous.  Perfectly valid opinion.  I can totally understand being uninterested in ME3 as an RPG fan with ME2 as the latest example of the promised "your decisions actually affect things!"

With ME being an RPG/Shooter mix, it's going to attract RPG fans and Shooter fans, who just aren't looking for the same things in a game.  I tend to find shooters boring and repetitive, and I'm a huge RPG fan, and no one does RPGs better than BioWare - which is why ME2 is kind of a let-down.  ME2 is the superior shooter, but ME1 is the superior RPG.  For me, the difference between a good RPG and a Great BioWare RPG is how much I care about the supporting cast, and that's really where ME1 does a fantastic job.  I really liked those characters.  The characters in ME2 are also really good - which is why I do think ME2 is replayable - but the carryover of LIs from ME1 to ME2 (a big selling point for the RPG-focused fan) is tragically, painfully, horribly bad.

Yes, I totally get and buy into the idea that they wanted to make sure the ME1 LI survived and makes it to ME3.  I totally get that, in order to do that, they all had to have reasons to not join up with Shep on the Suicide Mission.  I even get that, two years passing, these characters will have changed.

But ... ummm ... seriously?  For Kaidan/Ashley you get "Sorry Shepard, but I hate/distrust Cerberus more than I love/trust you.  Despite the fact that you're a freakin' hero and saved the Galaxy from the Reapers and the Council don't even believe the Reapers exist, and you've been dead for two years and it couldn't possibly be your fault that Cerberus is the organization that brought you back ... I just can't find it in my heart to give you the benefit of the doubt."

For Liara, you get "Sorry Shepard, but terrible bloody vengeance doesn't wreak itself.  Go save the universe without me: I have stuff to do."

My "willing suspension of disbelief" is just not that willing, no matter how much of a BioWare fan-girl I am.  Or maybe it's BECAUSE I'm such a BioWare fan-girl: I expect better from them.  I find these reasonings jarring, problematic, and kind of lame.  And, yes, I felt the Liara port was particularly bad: as the 2nd act of a 3-act romance, at least Kaidan/Ashely had a fight with Shep ... and the fact that a romance existed could be discussed ... but there's no fight with Liara.  There's no break-up, or let-down, or ... well, 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance troubles, unless you count "absolutely nothing happens" as a 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance.

Which is why ME2 really REALLY begs for a Liara-DLC.  Not only is the big sucking void where some kind of relationship development should be desperately in need of a remedy, but Liara really is the only character from ME1 with a real and true ME2 through-arc besides Garrus and Tali who get to be squad members (seeing as how Liara's actions in the comic books make ME2 possible, she's far more of a significant character in the overall story than Kaidan/Ashley are).  My best hope here is that the Liara stuff in ME2 is THAT lame because it's going to be fixed with a Liara DLC that can only reasonably come out after the comic book.

Otherwise, I'll regard ME3 as a shooter with an interesting overall galaxy-saving story and some "meh" RPG aspects, that I can totally wait for until I find it in the discount bin.  And, really, if that was what interested me, I'd just finally break down and play Halo - all three installments are already out.  No waiting.

This, I can't even express how much I agree except to say "This".

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 10 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[Nozybidaj]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I think we've been as patient as anyone else.  We waited two years, and we deserved bettter.

Yeah, I don't want to have to wait another two years to find out anything new about Liara.  I hope they go with a really big expansion to tie in all the Shadow Broker stuff and reestablish the old characters and their relationships.  I just hope they don't do anything salacious with her in the comic to make me completely give up on the whole thing in the meantime.

[jbauck]

Seriously. Two years is a bit much.



I actually think the content that's there in ME2 is Not Bad. I think the guilt-ridden-manifesting-as-anger Liara is interesting, and that her "coldness" to Shep really comes from her shy/awkward personality insofar as she doesn't know where she stands with Shep. I really had the feeling, having gone through the Liara convos several times now, that there's a part of her that feels like she has to take out the Shadow Broker to redeem herself for her mistakes and her selfishness and all the things she's kicking herself about right now.



It's the content that's Not There that's frustrating.



Really, by the time I got through all of the Liara convo, I just wanted to go "Gee, I get that - I do ... but you're dealing with really dangerous stuff and I'm worried about the fact that you're doing this all alone, without anyone you can trust or count on around to help out. If you're not going to let me help, how about I leave Garrus? You two always got along, I don't REALLY need him, and ... well, he's a frighteningly good shot. How about we set him up across the way with a good view of your office and his trusty sniper rifle, and he'll just shoot anyone in the head who messes with you, okay? I know you're all Action!Liara now, but, heck, I'm Commander Shapard, and no one is as tough as me, and I still have a whole TEAM watching my back. And it'll really make me feel better."



So, yes - SB/Liara, clear-this-arc-before-ME3-please. This frustrating Liara interaction becomes sheer awesome genius if there's a planned DLC to clean it up (even if paying for this "extra" content is irksome on the principal of the thing, I admit I'll do it. Darn you, BioWare!). The only legitimate story-reason I can think of to leave the SB arc to ME3 instead of DLC or X-Pack is if SB is a Reaper Agent. And, well, not everything in the universe can be a freakin' Reaper Plot, yeah? At that point, you might as well make TIM and that Turian Counselor guy Reaper Agents, too.



*sigh* I'm a big dork. I know this - I'm comfortable with it. But if the SB arc doesn't get cleared up before ME3, I'm going to end up writing fanfic. Please, for the love of everything that is good and right in the world, Do Not Make Me Do This.

[Sharn01]

Thats a big part of the of the point of this thread though jbauck.



Regardless of the Devs reason for Liara to act the way she does, not want to help or be helped by Shep, it does not matter, because there is nothing Shep can say or do to even try and remedy the situation. You cant offer to help, you cant say help me and I will help you, cant tell her you care about her, cant do anything at all.



It the main reason why I say it would be better to not even meet Liara in person in ME2 then the shoddy job they did.



I also dont buy the we cant tell you whats going on with her or let you talk to her for the comic book, that is even worse, they should have wrapped the comic up already or not worried about it, I dont think it hurt the sales if we get a small peak at its end, better then none of her dialog making since until DLC, all of a sudden on this playthrough you can finally talk to her, no, I got a feeling they wont be adding anything substantial until ME3.

[jojon2se]

Let's say that armchair therapist Shepard just gives her some time to come to term with things on her own - she never was that stable, as evidenced by what happens if you go fetch her last thing before going to Ilos in ME1.

[AndroLeonidas]

Bioware did something similar with KOTOR and the Revan Bastila romance. They left it hanging... period.



Now... I'm very upset that I find another RPG that I like almost as much if not more and they do the same thing. One or two sentences to acknowledge their relationship is all that was needed. I don;t buy the cold hearted Liara, or how it was written. If she loved Shepard enough to not stop until she had his body back from the SB, then give it to cerberus in the hopes they could bring him back, and she even states she couldn't let go of him. That does not indicate someone who would just disregard him. The story takes place two years and twelve days after he "dies"... but they had at least a month after they destroyed the Reaper to get to know one another better. You don't actually think that in that month they didn't advance their relationship even further than what ME1 showed us. If Cerberus had him for two years twelve days, how long did it take her to recover his body. Jacob and Miranda have said he was dead for two years twelve days... does that include the time it took her to get his body back? That needs to be better clarified as well. How long did she search for his body before actually recovering it and giving it to Cerberus? These are questions that need to be answered.



After what she said in ME1 about realtionships, I sincerely doubt that she has just forgotten her love for Shepard. Or let it go for that matter. So the writing for her character was crappy and we definitely need a DLC to clear it all up.

[speedy111280]

jbauck wrote...

Seriously. Two years is a bit much.

I actually think the content that's there in ME2 is Not Bad. I think the guilt-ridden-manifesting-as-anger Liara is interesting, and that her "coldness" to Shep really comes from her shy/awkward personality insofar as she doesn't know where she stands with Shep. I really had the feeling, having gone through the Liara convos several times now, that there's a part of her that feels like she has to take out the Shadow Broker to redeem herself for her mistakes and her selfishness and all the things she's kicking herself about right now.

It's the content that's Not There that's frustrating.

Really, by the time I got through all of the Liara convo, I just wanted to go "Gee, I get that - I do ... but you're dealing with really dangerous stuff and I'm worried about the fact that you're doing this all alone, without anyone you can trust or count on around to help out. If you're not going to let me help, how about I leave Garrus? You two always got along, I don't REALLY need him, and ... well, he's a frighteningly good shot. How about we set him up across the way with a good view of your office and his trusty sniper rifle, and he'll just shoot anyone in the head who messes with you, okay? I know you're all Action!Liara now, but, heck, I'm Commander Shapard, and no one is as tough as me, and I still have a whole TEAM watching my back. And it'll really make me feel better."

So, yes - SB/Liara, clear-this-arc-before-ME3-please. This frustrating Liara interaction becomes sheer awesome genius if there's a planned DLC to clean it up (even if paying for this "extra" content is irksome on the principal of the thing, I admit I'll do it. Darn you, BioWare!). The only legitimate story-reason I can think of to leave the SB arc to ME3 instead of DLC or X-Pack is if SB is a Reaper Agent. And, well, not everything in the universe can be a freakin' Reaper Plot, yeah? At that point, you might as well make TIM and that Turian Counselor guy Reaper Agents, too.

*sigh* I'm a big dork. I know this - I'm comfortable with it. But if the SB arc doesn't get cleared up before ME3, I'm going to end up writing fanfic. Please, for the love of everything that is good and right in the world, Do Not Make Me Do This.

I absolutely agree with you. I'm not upset about Liara's side of it because of what we learned about her in ME1. I wouldn't have expected her to handle it any differently than she did. I was way more upset that we didn't have the opportunity to make Shepard acknowledge the relationship at all, except for the kiss. There was no way to really reassure Liara that you still have feelings for her or anything.

[Nozybidaj]

speedy111280 wrote...

I absolutely agree with you. I'm not upset about Liara's side of it because of what we learned about her in ME1. I wouldn't have expected her to handle it any differently than she did. I was way more upset that we didn't have the opportunity to make Shepard acknowledge the relationship at all, except for the kiss. There was no way to really reassure Liara that you still have feelings for her or anything.

Yep, if they had included one or two lines of dialogue for Shepard to say something, anything, about the relationship and have Liara respond to it in kind it would have gone a long way to making the whole scene actually fit together.  We'd still be miffed about not seeing her enough but at least we wouldn't be nerd raging constantly at the devs about the way the scene was implemented.

[MutantSpleen]

Ok Liara's romance may not have been handled wonderfully but none were. I don't really feel that the way Kaidan/Ashely was handled was anything light-years beyond Liara and should be put on some pedestal. They basically give you an awkward hug, not even a kiss and then go psycho on you. At least Liara was loving and was genuinely pleased to see that you were alive. The letters you get from Ash/Kaidan were just more reminders of that horrible confrontation on Horizon and didn't really make me feel any better about the whole thing.



I don't really think you could acknowledge your relationship with Ash or Kaidan either, you basically just sit there through the confrontation going "But wait...I was dead..you see I really couldn't because I was DEAD!"

[Nozybidaj]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Ok Liara's romance may not have been handled wonderfully but none were. I don't really feel that the way Kaidan/Ashely was handled was anything light-years beyond Liara and should be put on some pedestal. They basically give you an awkward hug, not even a kiss and then go psycho on you. At least Liara was loving and was genuinely pleased to see that you were alive. The letters you get from Ash/Kaidan were just more reminders of that horrible confrontation on Horizon and didn't really make me feel any better about the whole thing.

I don't really think you could acknowledge your relationship with Ash or Kaidan either, you basically just sit there through the confrontation going "But wait...I was dead..you see I really couldn't because I was DEAD!"

I agree that Ash/Kaiden were not handled well but they are acknowledged.  If I recall you can tell them you still care about them?  I might be wrong there.  Joker mentions them, Kelly asks you about them, and you get an email from them apologizing after the fact saying they still care about you.  Liara gets none of that.

If Liara gets some amazing DLC I won't really care about the other stuff, but yes, I do feel bad for the Ash/Kaidan fans as well.  We are all pretty much in the same boat of missing the second chapter of the love story.

[bjdbwea]

Yeah, that was all just so very weak. It's okay to limit the things that Shepard can say, it has to be this way, but you can't withhold lines that are simply self-evident and a matter of course for any reasonable human being in that given situation. It breaks the immersion, and once done, that's hard to fix.

[Mox Ruuga]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Ok Liara's romance may not have been handled wonderfully but none were. I don't really feel that the way Kaidan/Ashely was handled was anything light-years beyond Liara and should be put on some pedestal. They basically give you an awkward hug, not even a kiss and then go psycho on you. At least Liara was loving and was genuinely pleased to see that you were alive. The letters you get from Ash/Kaidan were just more reminders of that horrible confrontation on Horizon and didn't really make me feel any better about the whole thing.

I don't really think you could acknowledge your relationship with Ash or Kaidan either, you basically just sit there through the confrontation going "But wait...I was dead..you see I really couldn't because I was DEAD!"

I don't think any Liara fan is really claiming that Ash and Kaidan got that much better treatment. The relationship was actually acknowledged, which is a sore point for us. The Shepard / Liara romance was basically swept under the rug, and while we got more content, what we got wasn't that good. I'm still debating whether it would have been better to not include Liara in ME2 at all, than to get the wrecked version presently in the game. I REALLY wouldn't call her "loving". Cold and unfeeling, with one brief moment where the ME1 Liara shines through. Which Shepard basically doesn't react to, or even seem to notice. Sigh.

Basically, Ash, Liara, and Kaidan fans are in the same leaky boat. We have nothing but threadbare, vague, glib assurances from various Bioware personnel that the characters were "spared" for ME3, and that the romances will be "concluded".

[CastroKathy]

jbauck wrote...

But it's not outrageous - it takes a lot of time, effort, and awesomeness to build up good will and trust with an audience, and as an admitted BioWare fan-girl (BioWare has made ALL of my favorite games), they have that from me.  At the same time, it only takes a few mistakes, if they're big enough, to destroy all of that hard work and effort, and if people feel the Liara-handling was that bad, that's just not outrageous.  Perfectly valid opinion.  I can totally understand being uninterested in ME3 as an RPG fan with ME2 as the latest example of the promised "your decisions actually affect things!"

With ME being an RPG/Shooter mix, it's going to attract RPG fans and Shooter fans, who just aren't looking for the same things in a game.  I tend to find shooters boring and repetitive, and I'm a huge RPG fan, and no one does RPGs better than BioWare - which is why ME2 is kind of a let-down.  ME2 is the superior shooter, but ME1 is the superior RPG.  For me, the difference between a good RPG and a Great BioWare RPG is how much I care about the supporting cast, and that's really where ME1 does a fantastic job.  I really liked those characters.  The characters in ME2 are also really good - which is why I do think ME2 is replayable - but the carryover of LIs from ME1 to ME2 (a big selling point for the RPG-focused fan) is tragically, painfully, horribly bad.

Yes, I totally get and buy into the idea that they wanted to make sure the ME1 LI survived and makes it to ME3.  I totally get that, in order to do that, they all had to have reasons to not join up with Shep on the Suicide Mission.  I even get that, two years passing, these characters will have changed.

But ... ummm ... seriously?  For Kaidan/Ashley you get "Sorry Shepard, but I hate/distrust Cerberus more than I love/trust you.  Despite the fact that you're a freakin' hero and saved the Galaxy from the Reapers and the Council don't even believe the Reapers exist, and you've been dead for two years and it couldn't possibly be your fault that Cerberus is the organization that brought you back ... I just can't find it in my heart to give you the benefit of the doubt."

For Liara, you get "Sorry Shepard, but terrible bloody vengeance doesn't wreak itself.  Go save the universe without me: I have stuff to do."

My "willing suspension of disbelief" is just not that willing, no matter how much of a BioWare fan-girl I am.  Or maybe it's BECAUSE I'm such a BioWare fan-girl: I expect better from them.  I find these reasonings jarring, problematic, and kind of lame.  And, yes, I felt the Liara port was particularly bad: as the 2nd act of a 3-act romance, at least Kaidan/Ashely had a fight with Shep ... and the fact that a romance existed could be discussed ... but there's no fight with Liara.  There's no break-up, or let-down, or ... well, 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance troubles, unless you count "absolutely nothing happens" as a 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance.

Which is why ME2 really REALLY begs for a Liara-DLC.  Not only is the big sucking void where some kind of relationship development should be desperately in need of a remedy, but Liara really is the only character from ME1 with a real and true ME2 through-arc besides Garrus and Tali who get to be squad members (seeing as how Liara's actions in the comic books make ME2 possible, she's far more of a significant character in the overall story than Kaidan/Ashley are).  My best hope here is that the Liara stuff in ME2 is THAT lame because it's going to be fixed with a Liara DLC that can only reasonably come out after the comic book.

Otherwise, I'll regard ME3 as a shooter with an interesting overall galaxy-saving story and some "meh" RPG aspects, that I can totally wait for until I find it in the discount bin.  And, really, if that was what interested me, I'd just finally break down and play Halo - all three installments are already out.  No waiting.

I just want to say that this is yet another articulate, passionate and in my opinion correct summary of what the RPG fans of ME are feeling. There are quite a few well written posts, including this one, that lay out exactly why aspects of the story fail in ME2 and I just hope the devs can accept some honest criticism and make improvements.

[Kilshrek]

What most people don't realise is that Liara will be the canon ME 3 romance, and she will have Shepard's babbies(it don't matter if Shepard is male or female here!) and when the ME trilogy draws to a close, we will have a new game set in the ME universe with (insert name here) Shepard, the asari spectre! It is also just that easy for fe/male Shep's to say "I'll love our daughters no matter what colour they are".



At the start of ME 3 will be a little homey scene of Liara watching the galactic news in Shep's cabin and Shep just waking up, dialogue is something like this "Shepard, there is still some Shadow Broker left over from yesterday, would you like me to heat some up for you?" Paragon answer is Yes, Rengade is Yuk.



This shall happen.



Back to some relevant posting, it'll be interesting to see how many years pass between ME 2 and ME 3, and what happens with the whole Liara hunting the SB and wanting to save her new BFF Feron.



I believe that if you chose the "You're obsessed" dialogue, Liara just rants and then says please lets not argue, I don't have enough friends as it is" or something like that. Wait, what? We just had a OMG I Haven't Seen You In 2 Years *KISS* and then after a bit of a chat here n there we're just friends again? huh, did I miss something when you killed Nyxeris?



Of course, then back to the Nyxeris angle, I understand the old saying "Keep you friends close, and your enemies closer", but SURELY Nyxeris would have realised that Liara getting Shep on the job could surely compromise her identity. Throwing up such a weak smokescreen, with the Salarian being the only likely target to begin with (Vorcha, seriously?) I was left scratching my head.. It's about as confusing as telling Conrad to go home to his wife and then coming back 2 years later to find out he's lost his marbles and all the aces in his deck.

[Jeremy Winston]

Keep in mind that from Shepard's point of view, it's only been weeks or maybe months. Ignoring that and getting to the main point of your post, Maviarab, I have to disagree.



If the relationship has changed, it's changed. If it's scripted that way, fine. However, how it was done... that is, the dialog, the choices, the interaction, are all wrong. Would it really have been hard to have a 15 second voice over (2-3 dialog choices) that told the player what was going on? Oh, by all means, keep Shepard confused if you want, but make it clear to the player that this is what you're doing.



I agree with jbauk's analysis, for the most part. It didnt' ring true, and, as a gamer, I was unable to tell if it was simply bad writing or if this was the exact reaction BioWare was going for.



The fact of the matter was that LI situations arose for which the in-game Shepard has strong emotional investment. Yet, Shepard never was able to voice anything in that regard, and the narrative around those scenes didn't provide closure. It was a classic RPG failure.



To Ash/Kaiden: "But, but... I still want... " -> "I'm sorry Shepard, but I'm just not sure I trust this new Cerberus YOU. I'm not sure your the person I got involved with.



To Liara: "Damn, it's good to see you" -> "I'm sorry Shepard.. it's just... different. You were dead. DEAD. I saw your body! Now, you're alive... and I ... I just don't know what to think. I did some bad things to help bring you back... I don't deserve...."



(Or whatever you think the motivation is.. the above was just made up flummary in the 15 seconds I stole from my job.)

[jbauck]

Maviarab wrote...

Guessing you never been in a relationship (if you can call it that) where you dont see the person for years after, suddenly meet up again and its juts not the same?

LOL - You have no idea.

But, I understand your overall criticism of my criticism, so I'll be more explicit about what, to my mind, would have fixed this:

*back on the Normandy*

Joker: Hey, Commander!  How's Liara? *outrageous eyebrow-waggling*
Shep: Ummm ... she's ... *confused look* hunting down the Shadow Broker.  To kill him.
Joker: Wait, what?  LIARA!?  Whoa.
Shep: Yeah.
Joker: Well, what about you two and ...
Shep: I just don't know.  Fire it up, Joker.  We have to save the Universe.

Again, I realize this is a 2nd-act-of-3-act-romance thing.  And I sure as heck understand that, after time and distance, people who are really in love with each other can grow apart, and more specifically, that Liara has had a Really Bad Two Years.  I am in no way advocating that Liara should have dropped what she was doing to hang out in Shep's cabin to be Shep's love monkey.

She's got stuff to do.  I respect that.  As stark, cold, angry and Must!Kill as the whole Shadow Broker convo is, my reading is that her friend - a teammate - effectively a crew member - is dead or captured, and she doesn't know which.  My Shep absolutely gets behind the idea that you don't leave crew behind.  So I'm totally okay with that - basically, with everything that's actually in there.  The awkwardness ... the "where do we stand" confusion ... the frustration when Shep says something along the lines of "Can't you just TALK to me?"

That's actually good 2nd-act-romance-writing.  A little jarring, yes - but the Kaidan/Ashley stuff is also jarring, and obviously the ME1-ME2 LI port is meant to be jarring. 2nd-act = Unsatisfying Middle Part.  I can handle that.  I know that's not necessarily a popular opinion on this thread - that the Liara characterization in ME2 just doesn't bother me and that, no, Liara doesn't have to ditch her life to be Shep's Love Monkey - but that's how I feel about it.

Really, ME2 is the "No Time For Love, Commander Shepard" installment, as far as the ME1 LI go - Shep really does not have time to sit down and talk things out with the ME1 LI.  Suicide Mission, and all that.  Abducted Colonists.  Reapers.  Bad Stuff - On A Timeline Here.  Okay, fine.  The Kaidan/Ashley email, while in no way perfect, and while their motivation (Hate/Distrust Cerberus more than Love/Trust Shepard) is murky ... it's at least a "we can talk this out when you get back."

With Liara, as friend OR Love Interest, after you do Liara's quests, there's a "What happens now?" from Shep, and Liara's response?  "Now ... I spend the next two years hunting down the Shadow Broker."  That is NOT a "we can talk this out when you get back."  That's really more of a "Glad you're alive - thanks for the hacking - here's your hat, what's your hurry?"

So, yeah, my reaction to that is not "ah, well - schmoopiness will have to wait for ME3."  My reaction to that is "WTF?  This is a BIOWARE game!?  But ... but ... BioWare games usually ... Make Sense."

I will come back to this thread to say "BioWare, you Evil Geniuses, Gah!  Gah!  It hurts, but is awesome!" if the Liara stuff turns out to be that way Totally On Purpose because there is a planned SB/Liara DLC, even if the SB/Liara DLC leaves the relationship status at "we really care about each other, but we'll need to talk about it later" like the Kaidan/Ashley LI stuff.  I will publically and loudly admit that this is not Bad Writing, but Evil Genius Messing With Liara LI Fans.  Yanking My Chain/Messing With My Head = Totally Okay.  Bad Writing = Not Okay.

But, for me, the holes as they exist in ME2 as-is add up to Bad Writing ... or, as generously as I can manage - Glaring Oversight.  But I do readily admit that this could be a Set-Up For Awesome.  Which would make me very happy.  Because this is the only thing I don't like about ME2.

[Nozybidaj]

jbauck wrote...

But, for me, the holes as they exist in ME2 as-is add up to Bad Writing ... or, as generously as I can manage - Glaring Oversight.  But I do readily admit that this could be a Set-Up For Awesome.  Which would make me very happy.  Because this is the only thing I don't like about ME2.

Agreed, but I really don't want to have to wait two more years for awesome.  It's already been two years since the end of ME1, so 4 years in between any sort of development of continuation of the story? /sigh  Off all the things I don't like about ME2, the thing I dislike the most is how it basically did nothing.

[Driveninhifi]

Aside from the fact they don't give good motivation for her change (show, don't tell, as I said before) there are other huge issues.

They have a great setup for awesome, but it really should be in ME2.

There's a lot of possibility for amazing subtext and conflict just in the conversation with Liara.

Think about how conflicted she must be....the love of her life just reappeared and wants to be back with her. It would be so easy to just go, attempt to recover what she had before, maybe even to be happy again. But she knows she won't be able to forgive herself. Doing the selfish thing for herself got people hurt and killed before (while looking for the body) and if she leaves with Shep, it will happen again (she'll ignore and deny Feron's sacrifice).

That's awesome development that logically should occur in the conversation you have with her AND IT ISN'T IN THE GAME.

It's absolutely inconceivable the previous relationship would not come up in that conversation. That's just the writers holding back, and it makes the conversation feel very contrived and unnatural.

[Jax Sparrow]

 I completely agree with the OP and yet I look forward to a Liara DLC and more.  Any grudge I could have over this is tempered with knowing what I "want" is far more than a few random emails.  I want a full blown sidequest and for Liara to become a squadmate after you destroy the harbinger base... thus eliminating the chance of her death.  Maybe even a full blow planetmission like Feros or Noveria...  Ohh how I miss those places.

I also wish to reiterate that if you actually have your Shep ASK Liara? she explains how far from "moving on" she really was and how she literally knew you were still "alive", just asleep, so to speak.  I have yet to read the comic, but when I do? I will laugh.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 10 février 2010 - 06:55 .