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[jbauck]

Jedi0309 wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Jedi0309 wrote...

This would make sense if Liara wasn't your ME1 romance, but very little to none if she was.  During the conversation with her on Illium, you find out that Liara stole Shep's body from the Shadow Broker  to give to Cerberus so they could bring him/her back to life.  Asari live for about 1000+ years, so 2 years for Liara would be like maybe a few months?  Why would she go through the trouble of helping Cerberus in bringing her lover back to life, just to move after such a short time?

I think the devs were either lazy, pressed for time, or simply forgot to add a separate string of conversation for people who romanced Liara.  At least, that's what it feels like.  And I agree with everyone here, that Kiss was very awkward.

There's also the very likely possibility that they intentionally intended to turn people off on her, by sweeping every reference to the romance under the rug, except for the picture and the awkward kiss. And making Shepard and Liara both act cold and nonchalant towards each other.

Still, it doesn't make much sense with her stealing your body to bring to Cerberus.  Why would you bring a loved one back to life, just to give them the cold shoulder?

Eep!  I actually have an answer for this (though, the fact that I have to squint, tilt my head to the side, and strain my eyes to see some sense in all of this stuff is ... irksome).

Guilt!  It's Guilt!

I just started a new playthrough, and rewatched the opening sequence, and y'know what?  If Liara hadn't listened to Shep and had stuck to Shep like glue to go save Joker, Shep wouldn't have died.  Simple biotic pull totally fixes that whole 'getting spaced and dying' thing, and Joker, Liara and Shep all make it to the escape pod.

So, yes - I can totally see this.  With the squinting and the head-tilting and the eye-strain.  I imagine Liara has recurring nightmares about this, or daydreams where she >does< in fact, stay with Shep and prevents Shep's death to begin with.  I imagine she feels she let Shep down/got Shep killed.  And then, when she goes to save Shep's body, her sidekick (I refuse to think of that char as anything but her sidekick ) ALSO gets killed.  And she almost dies.

I think she's wallowing in a big pit of "it's best if I work alone - I only get people killed - I shouldn't be risking anyone's life but mine."  And, to some extent, her rage at the Shadow Broker is all tied up into this irrational sense that taking him out will redeem her.  Taking him out will mean that she's, in a way, worthy and competent.  But, until she does that, she feels the need to work alone, to not risk anyone else, and to not accept any help that could possibly cause any injury to anyone else worse than a sprained thumb from hacking terminals.

So, again I say - if this kind of stuff is all subtextual, but there On Purpose, because there's a planned DLC after the comic books that gets more explicit with all of this, and even simply acknowledges the ME1 romance, then it's awesome.  Aggravating that the "missing content" is, well, missing in the core ME2 game, but ... still - awesome.  Subtle.  Exceptional writing.  Huge risk to mask what will be, eventually, exceptional writing under a layer of Epic Fail - but if BioWare pulls this out of their hat, I will dance a happy jig and declare ME2 a Real BioWare Game That I Totally Love rather than a shooter-heavy sorta-RPG that I merely like.

[Ulicus]

BioWare should be taking notes? Really?

BioWare's Common Writing submission mistakes
- Overly verbose dialogue.

I get the frustration with how the Liara relationship was handled. I do. But both of those "interrupts" are about five times longer than the speech Shepard gives on the Normandy, which is about the longest stretch of talk he/she has.

Modifié par Ulicus, 11 février 2010 - 05:44 .

[Prioris]

jbauck wrote...
<snip>

So, again I say - if this kind of stuff is all subtextual, but there On Purpose, because there's a planned DLC after the comic books that gets more explicit with all of this, and even simply acknowledges the ME1 romance, then it's awesome.  Aggravating that the "missing content" is, well, missing in the core ME2 game, but ... still - awesome.  Subtle.  Exceptional writing.  Huge risk to mask what will be, eventually, exceptional writing under a layer of Epic Fail - but if BioWare pulls this out of their hat, I will dance a happy jig and declare ME2 a Real BioWare Game That I Totally Love rather than a shooter-heavy sorta-RPG that I merely like.

You have no idea how much I hope you're right.  That would truly be a Crowning Moment of Awesome for BW.  Fingers crossed...

[Jedi0309]

jienoma wrote...

jbauck wrote...

But it's not outrageous - it takes a lot of time, effort, and awesomeness to build up good will and trust with an audience, and as an admitted BioWare fan-girl (BioWare has made ALL of my favorite games), they have that from me.  At the same time, it only takes a few mistakes, if they're big enough, to destroy all of that hard work and effort, and if people feel the Liara-handling was that bad, that's just not outrageous.  Perfectly valid opinion.  I can totally understand being uninterested in ME3 as an RPG fan with ME2 as the latest example of the promised "your decisions actually affect things!"

With ME being an RPG/Shooter mix, it's going to attract RPG fans and Shooter fans, who just aren't looking for the same things in a game.  I tend to find shooters boring and repetitive, and I'm a huge RPG fan, and no one does RPGs better than BioWare - which is why ME2 is kind of a let-down.  ME2 is the superior shooter, but ME1 is the superior RPG.  For me, the difference between a good RPG and a Great BioWare RPG is how much I care about the supporting cast, and that's really where ME1 does a fantastic job.  I really liked those characters.  The characters in ME2 are also really good - which is why I do think ME2 is replayable - but the carryover of LIs from ME1 to ME2 (a big selling point for the RPG-focused fan) is tragically, painfully, horribly bad.

Yes, I totally get and buy into the idea that they wanted to make sure the ME1 LI survived and makes it to ME3.  I totally get that, in order to do that, they all had to have reasons to not join up with Shep on the Suicide Mission.  I even get that, two years passing, these characters will have changed.

But ... ummm ... seriously?  For Kaidan/Ashley you get "Sorry Shepard, but I hate/distrust Cerberus more than I love/trust you.  Despite the fact that you're a freakin' hero and saved the Galaxy from the Reapers and the Council don't even believe the Reapers exist, and you've been dead for two years and it couldn't possibly be your fault that Cerberus is the organization that brought you back ... I just can't find it in my heart to give you the benefit of the doubt."

For Liara, you get "Sorry Shepard, but terrible bloody vengeance doesn't wreak itself.  Go save the universe without me: I have stuff to do."

My "willing suspension of disbelief" is just not that willing, no matter how much of a BioWare fan-girl I am.  Or maybe it's BECAUSE I'm such a BioWare fan-girl: I expect better from them.  I find these reasonings jarring, problematic, and kind of lame.  And, yes, I felt the Liara port was particularly bad: as the 2nd act of a 3-act romance, at least Kaidan/Ashely had a fight with Shep ... and the fact that a romance existed could be discussed ... but there's no fight with Liara.  There's no break-up, or let-down, or ... well, 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance troubles, unless you count "absolutely nothing happens" as a 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance.

Which is why ME2 really REALLY begs for a Liara-DLC.  Not only is the big sucking void where some kind of relationship development should be desperately in need of a remedy, but Liara really is the only character from ME1 with a real and true ME2 through-arc besides Garrus and Tali who get to be squad members (seeing as how Liara's actions in the comic books make ME2 possible, she's far more of a significant character in the overall story than Kaidan/Ashley are).  My best hope here is that the Liara stuff in ME2 is THAT lame because it's going to be fixed with a Liara DLC that can only reasonably come out after the comic book.

Otherwise, I'll regard ME3 as a shooter with an interesting overall galaxy-saving story and some "meh" RPG aspects, that I can totally wait for until I find it in the discount bin.  And, really, if that was what interested me, I'd just finally break down and play Halo - all three installments are already out.  No waiting.

I can't do anithing but quote the entire post and agree with everything said: Liara has been left in the void, if it were a book i would have thrown it out of the window.

The strange thing is that Bioware has some really good writers, David Gaider for example has made an incredible work, and in the entire Dragon Age game, the holes in the plot are very few, if any is present, the story has been written in the most appealing and complex way, building something exceptional, in my opinion. Yet in ME2 they've treated the plot with a stunning shallowness, especially Liara, and that's unforgivable, i would have expected much more from Bioware.

P.S.
I agree with the last point too.

I completely agree with you guys.  I've been a Bioware fan since the first Knights of the Old Republic game, and have always enjoyed their work.  They know how to write character interactions and have deep, compeling storylines that grab you and suck you in.  I'm not sure what exactly Bioware was trying to accomplish with Liara's love interest situation in ME 2, but if they were trying to leave their audience in suspense, confused, and/or pissed off, it completely worked.  Numerous people aren't happy with the way the Liara love interest was handled, and we can only hope Bioware makes good on their promise of a "big payoff" for loyaly to your LI through all 3 games.

I finally play the first ME, and I have to say the combat felt like it was half-assed and lacking in any real structure.  I was consistantly getting shot through walls, shooting enemies through walls myself, getting chain bounced around by biotics from enemies I couldn't see on the other side of the room, and having my teammates stand out in the open only to be gunned down within seconds.  I've heard some folks complaining on the boards about ME 2's combat, because your kinda forced to use cover or die repeatedly, effectly cutting off your ability to "John Wayne" it.  In ME 1 you actually had an easier time if you did the run-and-gun tactic, because cover wasn't very effect for protection to begin with.  In my opinion, the only saving grace for ME 1 was the story.  ME 2 seems to be the reverse: improved combat mechanics with a sorta "meh" story.

I can agree that ME 2's story wasn't as deep and immersive, but it does play a very good supporting role to set up ME 3.  As a stand alone game, it fills in some blanks for new players to the franchise and catches you up on the main plot of  the reapers wanting to destroy all life.  I didn't realize just how empty ME 2 was without roll-over content from the first game.  I was amazed at how much content, even if some of it is kinda pointless and short, was actually missing and it made playing the game a 2nd time more interesting with an imported ME 1 toon.  All the new conversation options and appearances of characters of the first ME was almost like playing a different game... almost.

I still love ME 2, even if it feels like a game that's missing alot of content.  I'm thinking there's probably going to be several DLCs for it before ME 3 is finished.  Only time will tell.

[Prioris]

Ulicus wrote...

BioWare should be taking notes? Really?

BioWare's Common Writing submission mistakes
- Overly verbose dialogue.

I get the frustration with how the Liara relationship was handled. I do. But both of those "interrupts" are about five times longer than the speech Shepard gives on the Normandy, which is about the longest stretch of talk he/she has.

Fair enough, and I have no pretensions of writing for BioWare, nor do I think they'd give a second's glance at any fan writing, be it mine or someone else's.  It was just something I cooked up for amusement purposes.

In any case, neither "suggestion" was longer than the average NPC speech, and they were certainly not longer than Liara's own speech when she reveals the backstory behind her vendetta against the Shadow Broker.  Moreover, Shep's "epic speeches" actually do push up against that one-paragraph limit, given that all of them (assuming command of Normandy, going after the Collectors, before the final assault on the base) come with at least three dialogue wheels representing on average two sentences each.  They just sound shorter because they're broken up for the player's benefit.

Just my two cents, no offense intended.

[Nozybidaj]

jbauck wrote...

Eep!  I actually have an answer for this (though, the fact that I have to squint, tilt my head to the side, and strain my eyes to see some sense in all of this stuff is ... irksome).

Guilt!  It's Guilt!

I just started a new playthrough, and rewatched the opening sequence, and y'know what?  If Liara hadn't listened to Shep and had stuck to Shep like glue to go save Joker, Shep wouldn't have died.  Simple biotic pull totally fixes that whole 'getting spaced and dying' thing, and Joker, Liara and Shep all make it to the escape pod.

So, yes - I can totally see this.  With the squinting and the head-tilting and the eye-strain.  I imagine Liara has recurring nightmares about this, or daydreams where she >does< in fact, stay with Shep and prevents Shep's death to begin with.  I imagine she feels she let Shep down/got Shep killed.  And then, when she goes to save Shep's body, her sidekick (I refuse to think of that char as anything but her sidekick ) ALSO gets killed.  And she almost dies.

I think she's wallowing in a big pit of "it's best if I work alone - I only get people killed - I shouldn't be risking anyone's life but mine."  And, to some extent, her rage at the Shadow Broker is all tied up into this irrational sense that taking him out will redeem her.  Taking him out will mean that she's, in a way, worthy and competent.  But, until she does that, she feels the need to work alone, to not risk anyone else, and to not accept any help that could possibly cause any injury to anyone else worse than a sprained thumb from hacking terminals.

So, again I say - if this kind of stuff is all subtextual, but there On Purpose, because there's a planned DLC after the comic books that gets more explicit with all of this, and even simply acknowledges the ME1 romance, then it's awesome.  Aggravating that the "missing content" is, well, missing in the core ME2 game, but ... still - awesome.  Subtle.  Exceptional writing.  Huge risk to mask what will be, eventually, exceptional writing under a layer of Epic Fail - but if BioWare pulls this out of their hat, I will dance a happy jig and declare ME2 a Real BioWare Game That I Totally Love rather than a shooter-heavy sorta-RPG that I merely like.

Perhaps, but it is all complete conjecture on the part of us as forum goers.  There is no real indication of anything in game, not even acknowledgement that they ever even had a relationship.  I agree that there needs to be an expansion of epic scale come out for this to clear things up and set things right, but that still doesn't fix the core ME2 experience.

[Mox Ruuga]

Ulicus wrote...

BioWare should be taking notes? Really?

BioWare's Common Writing submission mistakes
- Overly verbose dialogue.

I get the frustration with how the Liara relationship was handled. I do. But both of those "interrupts" are about five times longer than the speech Shepard gives on the Normandy, which is about the longest stretch of talk he/she has.

You are correct, of course.

Like I said, I'm no writer.

But the emotion, whether anger or just sadness... It was missing. Bioware intended to make the trilogy cinematic. They spoke a lot about "emotional engagement". These troubled meetings with the ME1 LIs would have been perfect moments for some drama. Let it all out, let them shout at each other, or just tear up (using the cool new tears the animators used for at least Miranda and Jack), or something. What the Liara / Shepard reunion ended up with wasn't even "stiff upper lip". It was just two cold fishes, nattering away, one cursing the Shadow Broker, the other offering boredly to help her with her various errands.

How about an argument then where the Renegade interrupt would be Shepard getting so pissed off, that s/he ends up smashing Liara's table or some piece of furniture/art, and stalking out? S/he should have been pissed off, this possibly having been the meeting s/he had been anxiously, impatiently expecting the moment s/he woke up in the overrun Cerberus base. And then getting the cold shoulder, getting the brush off, not really knowing where s/he and Liara stand currently. Are they on? Are they off? Why doesn't Liara see that the Shadow Broker and her personal vendetta is small potatoes compared to the threat of the Reapers? What the hell happened to the asari maiden s/he used to be in love with?

The anger and disappointment... Would have been cinematic. And emotionally engaging.

Alas.

[Corti78]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

BioWare should be taking notes? Really?

BioWare's Common Writing submission mistakes
- Overly verbose dialogue.

I get the frustration with how the Liara relationship was handled. I do. But both of those "interrupts" are about five times longer than the speech Shepard gives on the Normandy, which is about the longest stretch of talk he/she has.

You are correct, of course.

Like I said, I'm no writer.

But the emotion, whether anger or just sadness... It was missing. Bioware intended to make the trilogy cinematic. They spoke a lot about "emotional engagement". These troubled meetings with the ME1 LIs would have been perfect moments for some drama. Let it all out, let them shout at each other, or just tear up (using the cool new tears the animators used for at least Miranda and Jack), or something. What the Liara / Shepard reunion ended up with wasn't even "stiff upper lip". It was just two cold fishes, nattering away, one cursing the Shadow Broker, the other offering boredly to help her with her various errands.

How about an argument then where the Renegade interrupt would be Shepard getting so pissed off, that s/he ends up smashing Liara's table or some piece of furniture/art, and stalking out? S/he should have been pissed off, this possibly having been the meeting s/he had been anxiously, impatiently expecting the moment s/he woke up in the overrun Cerberus base. And then getting the cold shoulder, getting the brush off, not really knowing where s/he and Liara stand currently. Are they on? Are they off? Why doesn't Liara see that the Shadow Broker and her personal vendetta is small potatoes compared to the threat of the Reapers? What the hell happened to the asari maiden s/he used to be in love with?

The anger and disappointment... Would have been cinematic. And emotionally engaging.

Alas.

I think that would be the perfect renegade interrupt/reaction for that. I know thats exactly how I felt and wanted to do after meeting her the first time in ME2. But no, we just have to sit there and take it <_<

[Daeion]

Prioris wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...

Where's the Renegade interrupt in the scene that makes Shepard jump up from the chair and bang his/her fist on the desk:

"Dammit Liara! What the hell are you playing at!? Talk to me, drop the bulls#!t, don't give me any fv(king brush off here! I'm very possibly going to my fv(king death here, on a hopeless mission against the Collectors, begging you to come with me and help me as I only know you can, and you're sending me on errands!? What the hell is wrong with you? The least you could do is to let me know if there's still "us" or not! I died, and came back to life, and my first thought was about you, wondering if you had escaped the destruction of the ship. Goddammit! And now you act like there never was anything between us! TALK TO ME! DROP THE FV(KING ACT! TELL ME YOU STILL LOVE ME, OR BE HONEST AND TELL ME IT'S OVER!"

*sits down, calmer*

"Then I'll help you with your damn hacking. Just don't try to play me."

Some honest, human emotion.

This, or the Paragon version, with Shep leaning over the desk and putting a hand over Liara's keyboard:

"Liara, will you stop and look at me for just one minute?  This is me you're talking to, remember?  I know how much you've been hurt over the years.  I know I'm responsible for some of that, and I'm sorry for what you went through.  But you're far from the only one... did you think it was any easier for me, staring at that photo on my desk every night and wondering if you'd survived, if you even knew I was alive? And then coming here, only to have you act like you'd never known me, going on about this friend and that lead and your grand plan for revenge, when I was standing right there in front of you and all I wanted to do was hold you and never let go?  I came back from the dead, and the one person I love more than anyone in the universe wouldn't even give me the time of day?  Honestly, I think dying hurt less.  ...I don't know, maybe you've moved on, maybe there isn't any 'us' anymore, and if that's the case I can accept that.  I don't like it, but I'll accept it.  But please, Liara, you have to talk to me.  No matter what, whether it's the Shadow Broker or Cerberus or hell, the entire Reaper fleet, we can figure it out together.  Just please, don't shut me out this way."

This made me smile and feel all warm inside.

Modifié par Daeion, 11 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[jbauck]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jbauck wrote...
<snip>
So, again I say - if this kind of stuff is all subtextual, but there On Purpose, because there's a planned DLC after the comic books that gets more explicit with all of this, and even simply acknowledges the ME1 romance, then it's awesome.  Aggravating that the "missing content" is, well, missing in the core ME2 game, but ... still - awesome.  Subtle.  Exceptional writing.  Huge risk to mask what will be, eventually, exceptional writing under a layer of Epic Fail - but if BioWare pulls this out of their hat, I will dance a happy jig and declare ME2 a Real BioWare Game That I Totally Love rather than a shooter-heavy sorta-RPG that I merely like.

Perhaps, but it is all complete conjecture on the part of us as forum goers.  There is no real indication of anything in game, not even acknowledgement that they ever even had a relationship.  I agree that there needs to be an expansion of epic scale come out for this to clear things up and set things right, but that still doesn't fix the core ME2 experience.

Well, yes, that's true.  But filling in the character-motivation holes and plot-holes with conjecture is the only thing that's making me feel better about all of this right now.   My faith in BioWare is a bit shaken by all of this nonsensical nonsense, as it appears in ME2, and a Fix-It DLC is my only hope.

So here's to conjecture!  And here's some more of it (imo, far more baseless than my original conjecture):

The Liara on Illium is really Liara's Evil!Twin!Clone, who is so awkward with Shep because she knows she's not the Real Liara.  The Evil!Twin!Clone, while evil, has all of Liara's memories and her ShepLove remains intact, hence the awkward head-shaking kiss.  The Real Liara is in a SB dungeon somewhere, with her sidekick, who are both still alive.  Evil!Twin!Clone!Liara's redemption will come in an Evil!Twin!Clone!Liara X-Pack in which she tracks down the Real Liara, contacts Shep to go rescue Real Liara, and sacrifices her life so Real Liara and Shep can go live happily-ever-after in a schmoopy lovefest the likes of which the universe has never seen.

[Daeion]

Ulicus wrote...

BioWare should be taking notes? Really?

BioWare's Common Writing submission mistakes
- Overly verbose dialogue.

I get the frustration with how the Liara relationship was handled. I do. But both of those "interrupts" are about five times longer than the speech Shepard gives on the Normandy, which is about the longest stretch of talk he/she has.

I'll agree they are a little wordy for an interupt or single line of conversation but the point really is that was the direction BW should have gone.

[jojon2se]

Bah, they've been together long enough to cool down a bit.



- I'm home.

-How was your day, dear?

-Fine, just fine... Meatloaf AGAIN?

-Yes.

-Okay.

*eats in silence*

[Daeion]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jbauck wrote...

Eep!  I actually have an answer for this (though, the fact that I have to squint, tilt my head to the side, and strain my eyes to see some sense in all of this stuff is ... irksome).

Guilt!  It's Guilt!

I just started a new playthrough, and rewatched the opening sequence, and y'know what?  If Liara hadn't listened to Shep and had stuck to Shep like glue to go save Joker, Shep wouldn't have died.  Simple biotic pull totally fixes that whole 'getting spaced and dying' thing, and Joker, Liara and Shep all make it to the escape pod.

So, yes - I can totally see this.  With the squinting and the head-tilting and the eye-strain.  I imagine Liara has recurring nightmares about this, or daydreams where she >does< in fact, stay with Shep and prevents Shep's death to begin with.  I imagine she feels she let Shep down/got Shep killed.  And then, when she goes to save Shep's body, her sidekick (I refuse to think of that char as anything but her sidekick ) ALSO gets killed.  And she almost dies.

I think she's wallowing in a big pit of "it's best if I work alone - I only get people killed - I shouldn't be risking anyone's life but mine."  And, to some extent, her rage at the Shadow Broker is all tied up into this irrational sense that taking him out will redeem her.  Taking him out will mean that she's, in a way, worthy and competent.  But, until she does that, she feels the need to work alone, to not risk anyone else, and to not accept any help that could possibly cause any injury to anyone else worse than a sprained thumb from hacking terminals.

So, again I say - if this kind of stuff is all subtextual, but there On Purpose, because there's a planned DLC after the comic books that gets more explicit with all of this, and even simply acknowledges the ME1 romance, then it's awesome.  Aggravating that the "missing content" is, well, missing in the core ME2 game, but ... still - awesome.  Subtle.  Exceptional writing.  Huge risk to mask what will be, eventually, exceptional writing under a layer of Epic Fail - but if BioWare pulls this out of their hat, I will dance a happy jig and declare ME2 a Real BioWare Game That I Totally Love rather than a shooter-heavy sorta-RPG that I merely like.

Perhaps, but it is all complete conjecture on the part of us as forum goers.  There is no real indication of anything in game, not even acknowledgement that they ever even had a relationship.  I agree that there needs to be an expansion of epic scale come out for this to clear things up and set things right, but that still doesn't fix the core ME2 experience.

Hopefully the "far-reaching" item for ME in Q4 will be said expac.

[Daeion]

Corti78 wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

BioWare should be taking notes? Really?

BioWare's Common Writing submission mistakes
- Overly verbose dialogue.

I get the frustration with how the Liara relationship was handled. I do. But both of those "interrupts" are about five times longer than the speech Shepard gives on the Normandy, which is about the longest stretch of talk he/she has.

You are correct, of course.

Like I said, I'm no writer.

But the emotion, whether anger or just sadness... It was missing. Bioware intended to make the trilogy cinematic. They spoke a lot about "emotional engagement". These troubled meetings with the ME1 LIs would have been perfect moments for some drama. Let it all out, let them shout at each other, or just tear up (using the cool new tears the animators used for at least Miranda and Jack), or something. What the Liara / Shepard reunion ended up with wasn't even "stiff upper lip". It was just two cold fishes, nattering away, one cursing the Shadow Broker, the other offering boredly to help her with her various errands.

How about an argument then where the Renegade interrupt would be Shepard getting so pissed off, that s/he ends up smashing Liara's table or some piece of furniture/art, and stalking out? S/he should have been pissed off, this possibly having been the meeting s/he had been anxiously, impatiently expecting the moment s/he woke up in the overrun Cerberus base. And then getting the cold shoulder, getting the brush off, not really knowing where s/he and Liara stand currently. Are they on? Are they off? Why doesn't Liara see that the Shadow Broker and her personal vendetta is small potatoes compared to the threat of the Reapers? What the hell happened to the asari maiden s/he used to be in love with?

The anger and disappointment... Would have been cinematic. And emotionally engaging.

Alas.

I think that would be the perfect renegade interrupt/reaction for that. I know thats exactly how I felt and wanted to do after meeting her the first time in ME2. But no, we just have to sit there and take it <_<

Yeah, even a paragon shep would probably have a similar reaction, except for the furniture breaking part.

[Funkcase]

They dropped the ball with Ash/Kaiden much more, they didnt even explain how they got away from the Collectores after being paralyzed by the seaker swarms.

[Illum.se]

My goodness, 37 pages! It keeps going and going, and hopefully it pays off somehow, DLC or ME3-wise in ugh, 2 years... o_O

[Daeion]

Funkcase wrote...

They dropped the ball with Ash/Kaiden much more, they didnt even explain how they got away from the Collectores after being paralyzed by the seaker swarms.

I just figured they weren't taken since Shep interupts the Collectors.

[bjdbwea]

Ulicus wrote...

BioWare should be taking notes? Really?

BioWare's Common Writing submission mistakes
- Overly verbose dialogue.

I get the frustration with how the Liara relationship was handled. I do. But both of those "interrupts" are about five times longer than the speech Shepard gives on the Normandy, which is about the longest stretch of talk he/she has.

That's only because Shepard's "epic" speech was too short as well.

[Sharn01]

To compare Mass Effect 2 to Empire Strikes Back



Han manages to get Leia on to the escape shuttle on Hoth and then departs on the Falcon alone instead of taking her with him.



Later when Han gets to Cloud city, he finds Leia working in an office, she tells him of her goal to hunt down (insert very minor character from A New Hope), and Han say ok, good luck with that Leia, and walks out the door.

[Sharn01]

Funkcase wrote...

They dropped the ball with Ash/Kaiden much more, they didnt even explain how they got away from the Collectores after being paralyzed by the seaker swarms.

I will agree that Ash/Kaiden where poorly done, but at least if you romanced them there was an actual acknowledgement that the romance took place.

[Nozybidaj]

jbauck wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

jbauck wrote...

So, again I say - if this kind of stuff is all subtextual, but there On Purpose, because there's a planned DLC after the comic books that gets more explicit with all of this, and even simply acknowledges the ME1 romance, then it's awesome.  Aggravating that the "missing content" is, well, missing in the core ME2 game, but ... still - awesome.  Subtle.  Exceptional writing.  Huge risk to mask what will be, eventually, exceptional writing under a layer of Epic Fail - but if BioWare pulls this out of their hat, I will dance a happy jig and declare ME2 a Real BioWare Game That I Totally Love rather than a shooter-heavy sorta-RPG that I merely like.

Perhaps, but it is all complete conjecture on the part of us as forum goers.  There is no real indication of anything in game, not even acknowledgement that they ever even had a relationship.  I agree that there needs to be an expansion of epic scale come out for this to clear things up and set things right, but that still doesn't fix the core ME2 experience.

Well, yes, that's true.  But filling in the character-motivation holes and plot-holes with conjecture is the only thing that's making me feel better about all of this right now.   My faith in BioWare is a bit shaken by all of this nonsensical nonsense, as it appears in ME2, and a Fix-It DLC is my only hope.

So here's to conjecture!  And here's some more of it (imo, far more baseless than my original conjecture):

The Liara on Illium is really Liara's Evil!Twin!Clone, who is so awkward with Shep because she knows she's not the Real Liara.  The Evil!Twin!Clone, while evil, has all of Liara's memories and her ShepLove remains intact, hence the awkward head-shaking kiss.  The Real Liara is in a SB dungeon somewhere, with her sidekick, who are both still alive.  Evil!Twin!Clone!Liara's redemption will come in an Evil!Twin!Clone!Liara X-Pack in which she tracks down the Real Liara, contacts Shep to go rescue Real Liara, and sacrifices her life so Real Liara and Shep can go live happily-ever-after in a schmoopy lovefest the likes of which the universe has never seen.

I'm good with that, and could actually see it happening at this point.  Maybe once my zombie cyborg Shepard tracks down the real Liara we'll find the real Shepard as well?

[Nozybidaj]

Sharn01 wrote...

To compare Mass Effect 2 to Empire Strikes Back

Han manages to get Leia on to the escape shuttle on Hoth and then departs on the Falcon alone instead of taking her with him.

Later when Han gets to Cloud city, he finds Leia working in an office, she tells him of her goal to hunt down (insert very minor character from A New Hope), and Han say ok, good luck with that Leia, and walks out the door.

Well, I think we realize at this point that BW is no Lucas when it comes to story telling.

[Zhijn]

Ash/Kaiden/Liara, utterly fail.

Ash/Kaiden, made no sens to me. 2yrs in a coma and all i got was a bltchslap.

Liara, makes more sens if you read the book i gues. But now she looks and sound like someone who smokes 5 packs of cig a day with no sleep..

Modifié par Zhijn, 11 février 2010 - 09:05 .

[Nimander]

Funkcase wrote...
They dropped the ball with Ash/Kaiden much more, they didnt even explain how they got away from the Collectores after being paralyzed by the seaker swarms.

A third to half the colony weren't taken.  Ash/Kaidan were just lucky enough to be in the group who hadn't been taken yet when Shephard got there and started kicking Collector butt.

I won't say Ash/Kaidan were handled /well/, but they weren't as bad as Liara.  Basically Ash/Kaidan had very little content, but it more or less made sense.

Liara had more content in the way of fetch-type missions (similar thing anyway), but the detail in the characterization /didn't/ make sense.

I'd have preferred an Ash/Kaidan thing to what we got.

[Nozybidaj]

Nimander wrote...

Funkcase wrote...
They dropped the ball with Ash/Kaiden much more, they didnt even explain how they got away from the Collectores after being paralyzed by the seaker swarms.

A third to half the colony weren't taken.  Ash/Kaidan were just lucky enough to be in the group who hadn't been taken yet when Shephard got there and started kicking Collector butt.

I won't say Ash/Kaidan were handled /well/, but they weren't as bad as Liara.  Basically Ash/Kaidan had very little content, but it more or less made sense.

Liara had more content in the way of fetch-type missions (similar thing anyway), but the detail in the characterization /didn't/ make sense.

I'd have preferred an Ash/Kaidan thing to what we got.

Agreed.