1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Driveninhifi]

Well, what they should have done with Ash/Kaiden was have them been incapacitated from the swarms. Then they have an excuse that actually makes sense instead of "well, i just saw big scary aliens wipe out a colony without any effort, but I still don't trust that you (even though I just saw you kill said big scary aliens). I can understand them being wary and very confused, but Ash/Kaiden are both soldiers - they aren't idiots and they know Shep gets stuff done.



As for Liara - I'm just repeating myself at this point but her conversation really needed 3 things:

More detail as to what happened - I don't feel her development is believable unless the SB strikes first. Then she can decide she's going to take him down to survive, redeem herself and avenge Shep/Feron.

Dialogue where she can show more vulnerability and confide in Shep she hates what's she's had to do, what she's had to become. She's lonely and scared; she even says she has no friends and that Shep is the only one she can trust. This would also show that she's still the same character - she's just had a very rough 2 years.

In the love case, it's completely unbelievable she'd let Shep walk out of the office to possibly get killed again without a word. There desperately needed to be a piece of dialogue about the relationship, ie

"I want to come with you more than anything, but Feron gave his life for you, for me, for us. If I stop hunting now, the Shadow Broker will escape and I can't live with myself if I deny his sacrifice. Come back to me alive!"

You could easily make the argument that the last time she was selfish (finding the body), she got people hurt and doesn't want that on her conscience again. Then Shep can come back and help her after blowing up the Collectors.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Well, what they should have done with Ash/Kaiden was have them been incapacitated from the swarms. Then they have an excuse that actually makes sense instead of "well, i just saw big scary aliens wipe out a colony without any effort, but I still don't trust that you (even though I just saw you kill said big scary aliens). I can understand them being wary and very confused, but Ash/Kaiden are both soldiers - they aren't idiots and they know Shep gets stuff done.

As for Liara - I'm just repeating myself at this point but her conversation really needed 3 things:
More detail as to what happened - I don't feel her development is believable unless the SB strikes first. Then she can decide she's going to take him down to survive, redeem herself and avenge Shep/Feron.
Dialogue where she can show more vulnerability and confide in Shep she hates what's she's had to do, what she's had to become. She's lonely and scared; she even says she has no friends and that Shep is the only one she can trust. This would also show that she's still the same character - she's just had a very rough 2 years.
In the love case, it's completely unbelievable she'd let Shep walk out of the office to possibly get killed again without a word. There desperately needed to be a piece of dialogue about the relationship, ie
"I want to come with you more than anything, but Feron gave his life for you, for me, for us. If I stop hunting now, the Shadow Broker will escape and I can't live with myself if I deny his sacrifice. Come back to me alive!"
You could easily make the argument that the last time she was selfish (finding the body), she got people hurt and doesn't want that on her conscience again. Then Shep can come back and help her after blowing up the Collectors.

If this had happened all the complaining would have been reduced by 99%.  We all had already accepted that the ME1 LI's were being written out, weren't happy about it, but had accepeted there wasn't anything we could do about it.  BW said to trust them, that they knew what they were doing.  We did, and look where we are now. <_<

[Flareth]

I agree with this thread, I would have loved some dialogue options for people who had Liara as LI in ME1.
At the same time I feel it's just as well that they don't immediately continue the relationship, I mean, Shepard is about to head out on a suicide mission. It's just as well that she doesn't have to lose him again if you fail. So I guess I can understand them going their own ways for now, and if you think about it that way the picture scene was kind of touching =p. To me the kiss was like a, we both want to be together but we also know can't for the moment, kind of kiss.

But then again I might just be trying to defend this whole situation in my head =D.

[Daeion]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jbauck wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

jbauck wrote...

So, again I say - if this kind of stuff is all subtextual, but there On Purpose, because there's a planned DLC after the comic books that gets more explicit with all of this, and even simply acknowledges the ME1 romance, then it's awesome.  Aggravating that the "missing content" is, well, missing in the core ME2 game, but ... still - awesome.  Subtle.  Exceptional writing.  Huge risk to mask what will be, eventually, exceptional writing under a layer of Epic Fail - but if BioWare pulls this out of their hat, I will dance a happy jig and declare ME2 a Real BioWare Game That I Totally Love rather than a shooter-heavy sorta-RPG that I merely like.

Perhaps, but it is all complete conjecture on the part of us as forum goers.  There is no real indication of anything in game, not even acknowledgement that they ever even had a relationship.  I agree that there needs to be an expansion of epic scale come out for this to clear things up and set things right, but that still doesn't fix the core ME2 experience.

Well, yes, that's true.  But filling in the character-motivation holes and plot-holes with conjecture is the only thing that's making me feel better about all of this right now.   My faith in BioWare is a bit shaken by all of this nonsensical nonsense, as it appears in ME2, and a Fix-It DLC is my only hope.

So here's to conjecture!  And here's some more of it (imo, far more baseless than my original conjecture):

The Liara on Illium is really Liara's Evil!Twin!Clone, who is so awkward with Shep because she knows she's not the Real Liara.  The Evil!Twin!Clone, while evil, has all of Liara's memories and her ShepLove remains intact, hence the awkward head-shaking kiss.  The Real Liara is in a SB dungeon somewhere, with her sidekick, who are both still alive.  Evil!Twin!Clone!Liara's redemption will come in an Evil!Twin!Clone!Liara X-Pack in which she tracks down the Real Liara, contacts Shep to go rescue Real Liara, and sacrifices her life so Real Liara and Shep can go live happily-ever-after in a schmoopy lovefest the likes of which the universe has never seen.

I'm good with that, and could actually see it happening at this point.  Maybe once my zombie cyborg Shepard tracks down the real Liara we'll find the real Shepard as well?

You're not going to enjoy finding out that Garrus is the SB.

[Nozybidaj]

Daeion wrote...

You're not going to enjoy finding out that Garrus is the SB.

If it gets my the real Shep and Liara back I'll put a bullet in Garrus' head.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 11 février 2010 - 10:28 .

[Chasedanger]

Daeion wrote...

Prioris wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...

Where's the Renegade interrupt in the scene that makes Shepard jump up from the chair and bang his/her fist on the desk:

"Dammit Liara! What the hell are you playing at!? Talk to me, drop the bulls#!t, don't give me any fv(king brush off here! I'm very possibly going to my fv(king death here, on a hopeless mission against the Collectors, begging you to come with me and help me as I only know you can, and you're sending me on errands!? What the hell is wrong with you? The least you could do is to let me know if there's still "us" or not! I died, and came back to life, and my first thought was about you, wondering if you had escaped the destruction of the ship. Goddammit! And now you act like there never was anything between us! TALK TO ME! DROP THE FV(KING ACT! TELL ME YOU STILL LOVE ME, OR BE HONEST AND TELL ME IT'S OVER!"

*sits down, calmer*

"Then I'll help you with your damn hacking. Just don't try to play me."

Some honest, human emotion.

This, or the Paragon version, with Shep leaning over the desk and putting a hand over Liara's keyboard:

"Liara, will you stop and look at me for just one minute?  This is me you're talking to, remember?  I know how much you've been hurt over the years.  I know I'm responsible for some of that, and I'm sorry for what you went through.  But you're far from the only one... did you think it was any easier for me, staring at that photo on my desk every night and wondering if you'd survived, if you even knew I was alive? And then coming here, only to have you act like you'd never known me, going on about this friend and that lead and your grand plan for revenge, when I was standing right there in front of you and all I wanted to do was hold you and never let go?  I came back from the dead, and the one person I love more than anyone in the universe wouldn't even give me the time of day?  Honestly, I think dying hurt less.  ...I don't know, maybe you've moved on, maybe there isn't any 'us' anymore, and if that's the case I can accept that.  I don't like it, but I'll accept it.  But please, Liara, you have to talk to me.  No matter what, whether it's the Shadow Broker or Cerberus or hell, the entire Reaper fleet, we can figure it out together.  Just please, don't shut me out this way."

This made me smile and feel all warm inside.

 Ditto. A little too long indeed, however, an abridged version or something to that effect should have been in the damn game.

[Chasedanger]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Well, what they should have done with Ash/Kaiden was have them been incapacitated from the swarms. Then they have an excuse that actually makes sense instead of "well, i just saw big scary aliens wipe out a colony without any effort, but I still don't trust that you (even though I just saw you kill said big scary aliens). I can understand them being wary and very confused, but Ash/Kaiden are both soldiers - they aren't idiots and they know Shep gets stuff done.

As for Liara - I'm just repeating myself at this point but her conversation really needed 3 things:
More detail as to what happened - I don't feel her development is believable unless the SB strikes first. Then she can decide she's going to take him down to survive, redeem herself and avenge Shep/Feron.
Dialogue where she can show more vulnerability and confide in Shep she hates what's she's had to do, what she's had to become. She's lonely and scared; she even says she has no friends and that Shep is the only one she can trust. This would also show that she's still the same character - she's just had a very rough 2 years.
In the love case, it's completely unbelievable she'd let Shep walk out of the office to possibly get killed again without a word. There desperately needed to be a piece of dialogue about the relationship, ie
"I want to come with you more than anything, but Feron gave his life for you, for me, for us. If I stop hunting now, the Shadow Broker will escape and I can't live with myself if I deny his sacrifice. Come back to me alive!"
You could easily make the argument that the last time she was selfish (finding the body), she got people hurt and doesn't want that on her conscience again. Then Shep can come back and help her after blowing up the Collectors.

Agree with all of this. And yeah how the hell DID Ash/Kaiden get out of stasis. Hey the thing wore off...and what they were on the ground behind a crate during that fight and we did not see them? If they were looking for someone to draw Sheperd out wouldn't they have taken that person as a hostage immediately, not left said friend of Sheps just strewn about a battlefield. Wouldn't that be the first "pod" you take back to the ship?

[Daeion]

Flareth wrote...

I agree with this thread, I would have loved some dialogue options for people who had Liara as LI in ME1.
At the same time I feel it's just as well that they don't immediately continue the relationship, I mean, Shepard is about to head out on a suicide mission. It's just as well that she doesn't have to lose him again if you fail. So I guess I can understand them going their own ways for now, and if you think about it that way the picture scene was kind of touching =p. To me the kiss was like a, we both want to be together but we also know can't for the moment, kind of kiss.

But then again I might just be trying to defend this whole situation in my head =D.

I don't need the relationship picked up from where we were when shep died, but it would have been nice to have a better acknowledgement of it as well as kind of a where do we go from here conversation.

[Flareth]

Daeion wrote...

I don't need the relationship picked up from where we were when shep died, but it would have been nice to have a better acknowledgement of it as well as kind of a where do we go from here conversation.

Yeah like Garrus and Tali saying something if you bring them along. And having someone on the crew or something, like Joker talking about it when you get back from visiting her.

[Daeion]

Flareth wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I don't need the relationship picked up from where we were when shep died, but it would have been nice to have a better acknowledgement of it as well as kind of a where do we go from here conversation.

Yeah like Garrus and Tali saying something if you bring them along. And having someone on the crew or something, like Joker talking about it when you get back from visiting her.

I was really dissapointed that there was no commenting from garrus, tali, or liara when the three were in the room together, I brough them there specifically for that...  The lack of chatting between party members, especially after ME elevators and DA:O was really dissapointing.

[Srslydude01]

Daeion wrote...

Flareth wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I don't need the relationship picked up from where we were when shep died, but it would have been nice to have a better acknowledgement of it as well as kind of a where do we go from here conversation.

Yeah like Garrus and Tali saying something if you bring them along. And having someone on the crew or something, like Joker talking about it when you get back from visiting her.

I was really dissapointed that there was no commenting from garrus, tali, or liara when the three were in the room together, I brough them there specifically for that...  The lack of chatting between party members, especially after ME elevators and DA:O was really dissapointing.

I did it that way too lol. That was a bit of a let down, but Liara's picture on Shepard's desk before going on the suicide mission is enough hope for me.

[Daeion]

Srslydude01 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Flareth wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I don't need the relationship picked up from where we were when shep died, but it would have been nice to have a better acknowledgement of it as well as kind of a where do we go from here conversation.

Yeah like Garrus and Tali saying something if you bring them along. And having someone on the crew or something, like Joker talking about it when you get back from visiting her.

I was really dissapointed that there was no commenting from garrus, tali, or liara when the three were in the room together, I brough them there specifically for that...  The lack of chatting between party members, especially after ME elevators and DA:O was really dissapointing.

I did it that way too lol. That was a bit of a let down, but Liara's picture on Shepard's desk before going on the suicide mission is enough hope for me.

It gave me hope while at the same time making feel like they just threw liara in at the last minute and didn't ahve time to flush things out.  I even stopped back just before going through the relay to see if I could mention it and stopped back after to see if there was anything and there was nothing

Modifié par Daeion, 12 février 2010 - 12:16 .

[Nozybidaj]

Daeion wrote...
.....there was nothing

That about sums up the ME1 LI's in ME2.

[Nozybidaj]

Srslydude01 wrote...


I did it that way too lol. That was a bit of a let down, but Liara's picture on Shepard's desk before going on the suicide mission is enough hope for me.

Its hope that they didn't completely forget the ME1 LI's.  However it worries me as well.  Casey has stated in interviews about carrying on the romance in ME2 and that it is the second chapter of a 3 chapter romance, that they will conclude the romance in 3.

If looking at a picture for 2 seconds at the very end of the game is what they consider "continuing the romance"  I can't help but wonder what "concluding" it will mean.

[Unit-Alpha]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Srslydude01 wrote...


I did it that way too lol. That was a bit of a let down, but Liara's picture on Shepard's desk before going on the suicide mission is enough hope for me.

Its hope that they didn't completely forget the ME1 LI's.  However it worries me as well.  Casey has stated in interviews about carrying on the romance in ME2 and that it is the second chapter of a 3 chapter romance, that they will conclude the romance in 3.

If looking at a picture for 2 seconds at the very end of the game is what they consider "continuing the romance"  I can't help but wonder what "concluding" it will mean.

Given what we've gotten, I would say death of our LI. Yeah, I'm pessimistic on this one.

[Jedi0309]

Nozybidaj wrote...

If this had happened all the complaining would have been reduced by 99%.  We all had already accepted that the ME1 LI's were being written out, weren't happy about it, but had accepeted there wasn't anything we could do about it.  BW said to trust them, that they knew what they were doing.  We did, and look where we are now. <_<

Well, Bioware did say staying loyal through the first 2 games has a big payoff in ME 3, so maybe they'll put a big band-aid on the booboos caused by ME 2.

[WilliamShatner]

The "Talk to you later, Liara" line is even more galling when you consider YOU'RE GOING ON A MISSION THAT COULD VERY WELL RESULT IN YOUR DEATH.

[firecleaner]

WilliamShatner wrote...

The "Talk to you later, Liara" line is even more galling when you consider YOU'RE GOING ON A MISSION THAT COULD VERY WELL RESULT IN YOUR DEATH.

Maybe Shepard doesnt want her to worry

[Mox Ruuga]

Blast from the past, Casey Hudson style:

IGN: If you had to pick three decisions from the first Mass Effect that most affect the story in the sequel, what would they be?

Casey Hudson: For those who haven't played Mass Effect, I should mention that (a) there are some spoilers ahead, and ( you really should play Mass Effect. I'd say the top 3 decisions are probably the choice of who lives and dies in the nuclear explosion on Virmire, who you had a romance with (if any), and whether you allowed the Galactic Council to die during the final battle. These things naturally cause some of the longer-lasting effects on your story as Commander Shepard. Another interesting aspect is that the sum of your decisions – your renegade / paragon status – also has an immediate and profound effect that we can't explain without giving away some of the story.

So how about that!

Let's count the ways our choice to have Liara as our love interest in ME1 influenced the sequel, as one of the top 3 decisions:

1) We got an awkward kiss instead of a hug
2) We had her picture on our desk

Remember this interview, when the "just wait until ME3, everyone always knew they would barely be there for ME2 and you were deluded if you thought otherwise, since ME3 is the real payoff" spin starts.

Source: http://uk.xbox360.ig.../1014425p1.html

[Nozybidaj]

Jedi0309 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

If this had happened all the complaining would have been reduced by 99%.  We all had already accepted that the ME1 LI's were being written out, weren't happy about it, but had accepeted there wasn't anything we could do about it.  BW said to trust them, that they knew what they were doing.  We did, and look where we are now. <_<

Well, Bioware did say staying loyal through the first 2 games has a big payoff in ME 3, so maybe they'll put a big band-aid on the booboos caused by ME 2.

If BW doesn't mind too terribly much, I'll remain skeptical till I actuall see a reason to believe there will be a payoff.  They asked us to trust them coming into ME2, I thought with all the great games of theirs I had enjoyed in the past they deserved that much, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt.  Now I want to see some results, faith alone isn't going to get me to buy ME3 this time.

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Blast from the past, Casey Hudson style:

IGN: If you had to pick three decisions from the first Mass Effect that most affect the story in the sequel, what would they be?

Casey Hudson: For those who haven't played Mass Effect, I should mention that (a) there are some spoilers ahead, and ( you really should play Mass Effect. I'd say the top 3 decisions are probably the choice of who lives and dies in the nuclear explosion on Virmire, who you had a romance with (if any), and whether you allowed the Galactic Council to die during the final battle. These things naturally cause some of the longer-lasting effects on your story as Commander Shepard. Another interesting aspect is that the sum of your decisions – your renegade / paragon status – also has an immediate and profound effect that we can't explain without giving away some of the story.

So how about that!

Let's count the ways our choice to have Liara as our love interest in ME1 influenced the sequel, as one of the top 3 decisions:

1) We got an awkward kiss instead of a hug
2) We had her picture on our desk

Remember this interview, when the "just wait until ME3, everyone always knew they would barely be there for ME2 and you were deluded if you thought otherwise, since ME3 is the real payoff" spin starts.

Source: http://uk.xbox360.ig.../1014425p1.html

I love that quote.  2 of the three had basically zero effect on ME2.  Your Virmire survivor was a completely generic role in ME2, completely interchangable dialogue, for the whole 10 seconds of it there was.  Your LI had zero impact on ME2.  You get a random email if it was Ash/Kaidan and a picture on your desk.  Your choice with the council affected maybe a dozen lines of dialogue throughtout the entire game and how a few random shop keepers greeted you.

As a fan of ME1 and a fan of Liara I personally found it rather insulting actually that whether I was nice or not to Conrad Verner was a more important decision in ME1 than the fact that I romanced Liara or saved the Council.  Conrad had an actual impact on who you see and your experience on Illium.  Conrad is even bugged and had a larger impact on the overall game experience than my LI from ME1 did.

This is a perfect example of why when BW asked for some faith and then delivered what they delivered that faith is now lost till I see some sort of amelioration.

[WilliamShatner]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Blast from the past, Casey Hudson style:

IGN: If you had to pick three decisions from the first Mass Effect that most affect the story in the sequel, what would they be?

Casey Hudson: For those who haven't played Mass Effect, I should mention that (a) there are some spoilers ahead, and ( you really should play Mass Effect. I'd say the top 3 decisions are probably the choice of who lives and dies in the nuclear explosion on Virmire, who you had a romance with (if any), and whether you allowed the Galactic Council to die during the final battle. These things naturally cause some of the longer-lasting effects on your story as Commander Shepard. Another interesting aspect is that the sum of your decisions – your renegade / paragon status – also has an immediate and profound effect that we can't explain without giving away some of the story.

So how about that!

Let's count the ways our choice to have Liara as our love interest in ME1 influenced the sequel, as one of the top 3 decisions:

1) We got an awkward kiss instead of a hug
2) We had her picture on our desk

Remember this interview, when the "just wait until ME3, everyone always knew they would barely be there for ME2 and you were deluded if you thought otherwise, since ME3 is the real payoff" spin starts.

Source: http://uk.xbox360.ig.../1014425p1.html

Why did you change your avatar Mox?  You freak me out now.

None of those choices had any meaningful affect on ME2 at all.  If those are the three that affect the story the most we can say that the promises that our choices mattered were severely overhyped.

Also, not strictly Liara related but:

Casey Hudson: Not to worry - we're not really streamlining or
simplifying. What we actually did was we rebuilt the entire inventory
system so that it could do more, while being easier to use. The
previous system tried to handle all the equipping, customizing, and
managing of your entire squad's armor, weapons, and gear in a single
screen. The main difference in ME2 is we've separated these functions
into different activities, so that each one can offer deeper
customization while being more fun and easy to use. An example is the
armor personalization system which goes far beyond what players could
do in the first game (and that's an understatement), but because it's
on its own screen you can manage the deeper level of options more
easily.

Come on.  That's an out and out lie.  

Makes it impossible to believe a word he says.

[Nozybidaj]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Casey Hudson: Not to worry - we're not really streamlining or
simplifying. What we actually did was we rebuilt the entire inventory
system so that it could do more, while being easier to use. The
previous system tried to handle all the equipping, customizing, and
managing of your entire squad's armor, weapons, and gear in a single
screen. The main difference in ME2 is we've separated these functions
into different activities, so that each one can offer deeper
customization while being more fun and easy to use. An example is the
armor personalization system which goes far beyond what players could
do in the first game (and that's an understatement), but because it's
on its own screen you can manage the deeper level of options more
easily.

Come on.  That's an out and out lie.  

Makes it impossible to believe a word he says.

I think the system is there for what he said to be true, it just never became fully realized.  If you had more than 1 set of armor total and the research system was used for more than just flat percentage increases and the like it would have been true.  They either just ran out of time and/or resources to fully realize the potential of it.  Yes, I agree though, his description of the system was, at best, incredibly over hyped.

[Mox Ruuga]

WilliamShatner wrote...


Why did you change your avatar Mox?  You freak me out now.

I used the lovable Vorcha avatar in the old forums, was glad to see it back. Loved their "evil clown" voices. Not a very "deep" species, but fun as cannon fodder.

[Mox Ruuga]

Nozybidaj wrote...

I love that quote.  2 of the three had basically zero effect on ME2.  Your Virmire survivor was a completely generic role in ME2, completely interchangable dialogue, for the whole 10 seconds of it there was.  Your LI had zero impact on ME2.  You get a random email if it was Ash/Kaidan and a picture on your desk.  Your choice with the council affected maybe a dozen lines of dialogue throughtout the entire game and how a few random shop keepers greeted you.

As a fan of ME1 and a fan of Liara I personally found it rather insulting actually that whether I was nice or not to Conrad Verner was a more important decision in ME1 than the fact that I romanced Liara or saved the Council.  Conrad had an actual impact on who you see and your experience on Illium.  Conrad is even bugged and had a larger impact on the overall game experience than my LI from ME1 did.

This is a perfect example of why when BW asked for some faith and then delivered what they delivered that faith is now lost till I see some sort of amelioration.

Indeed. When the hype starts building up again for ME3, it will do our expectation levels good to revisit old hype such as this, and compare it to what we actually ended up getting.