1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Mox Ruuga]

Squiggles 1171 wrote...

Ah well, I was waiting to cheat on her anyways xD this just gave me an excuse.

Heh, some ME fans got all the luck with the sequel. I suspect the devs intentionally provided you that "freedom from guilt".

Too bad for us who liked the ME1 LIs and wanted those storylines to continue...

[CastroKathy]

I was just thinking, could the existence of the comics hurt us in more ways than the oblivious “Oh, we didn’t need to put it into the game; it’s in the comic”. The writing for Liara is very comic book like, a couple of frames worth and get to the point, where I was looking for cinematic storytelling with more depth and character development. Of course this doesn’t hold true for the whole game, because in many places they were able to incorporate a cinematic feel into the game better than anything I’ve ever played (Tali loyalty and the suicide mission).

[Mox Ruuga]

CastroKathy wrote...

I was just thinking, could the existence of the comics hurt us in more ways than the oblivious “Oh, we didn’t need to put it into the game; it’s in the comic”. The writing for Liara is very comic book like, a couple of frames worth and get to the point, where I was looking for cinematic storytelling with more depth and character development. Of course this doesn’t hold true for the whole game, because in many places they were able to incorporate a cinematic feel into the game better than anything I’ve ever played (Tali loyalty and the suicide mission).

Yes, I'd say the GrimDarkification of Liara started in the comic. In the comic, she cannot interact with Shepard, or people who might be dead at some point in ME1 or 2. The comic won't touch topics that are important enough to be in the game, so Liara's story is ultimately a non essential side show.

Her new role as an information broker will also keep her on the sidelines, like Anderson and TIM, should they do as I now suspect and have her remain in her job for ME3 as well. Oh, she will be "important". But important in the way Anderson, Udina, and TIM are. And the romance with her will once again be a minor one, compared to whomever you have by your side in the squad.

It's a catch 22 the devs have made for themselves:

- Keep Liara as an information broker and the fans will hate it. It will only deepen her GrimDark UnLiara persona, and no one loves UnLiara. OTOH, it will provide some much needed stability and development for the wrecked character.

OR

- Have her join the squad. In the short term, the fans will love it. But this will make her refusal to join you in ME2 even a bigger joke than it already is, and will just make the character look fickle. When you replay the entire trilogy, the whole artificiality of Liara's character arc just becomes too much.

Whatever they choose to do, it will require good, sensitive writing in order for the character to be salvaged. I'm not sure the guy who wrecked Drew's Liara is up to the task... If Drew won't return, importing some talent from the Dragon Age team might be the answer.

[Fyk0]

Littledoom wrote...

Fyk0 wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Not sure if I am glad or not about that. Makes me feel better that they did not single out Liara, but it is just another example of them not giving a damn about ME1 decision's.

Maybe part of the reason is if there was much bigger role with Liara, probably big majority who romanced Liara would ignore romancing new team members, and the new members wanted to put on highlights. Still, I feel the same Liara didn't have enough attention, especially who romanced her in ME1. Give us Liara DLC!
I got my hopes up Liara got major role in ME3. Otherwise it would be... retarded.

One can always hope for DLC and a better part in ME3 but I wont believe anything without solid prof. They said that the ME1 characters would have cool parts in ME2 and that we would totally understand them being there/doing that. The only one that had a part that fitted him was Wrex in my opinion, the rest was BS.

It just feels like a kick on the balls if she got totally put aside. I can't believe they would do that.
Well, I think Garrus, Tali and Wrex got their parts done well. And Joker, even he wasn't a squad member.

[Nozybidaj]

CastroKathy wrote...

I was just thinking, could the existence of the comics hurt us in more ways than the oblivious “Oh, we didn’t need to put it into the game; it’s in the comic”. The writing for Liara is very comic book like, a couple of frames worth and get to the point, where I was looking for cinematic storytelling with more depth and character development. Of course this doesn’t hold true for the whole game, because in many places they were able to incorporate a cinematic feel into the game better than anything I’ve ever played (Tali loyalty and the suicide mission).

I think it did hurt us yes.  I do believe part of why the Liara scene was so bad is because of the comic.  I do get what you are saying about the comic book feel of her scene, but honestly I feel the game overall just has more of a "corny comic booky" feel to it than the first.  The first game feels more mature and serious about the subject matter where as a lot of ME2 is so over the top "dark and edgy" it feels like a ME parody rather than a true sequel.

[Larask]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Yes, I'd say the GrimDarkification of Liara started in the comic. In the comic, she cannot interact with Shepard, or people who might be dead at some point in ME1 or 2. The comic won't touch topics that are important enough to be in the game, so Liara's story is ultimately a non essential side show.

Her new role as an information broker will also keep her on the sidelines, like Anderson and TIM, should they do as I now suspect and have her remain in her job for ME3 as well. Oh, she will be "important". But important in the way Anderson, Udina, and TIM are. And the romance with her will once again be a minor one, compared to whomever you have by your side in the squad.

It's a catch 22 the devs have made for themselves:

- Keep Liara as an information broker and the fans will hate it. It will only deepen her GrimDark UnLiara persona, and no one loves UnLiara. OTOH, it will provide some much needed stability and development for the wrecked character.

OR

- Have her join the squad. In the short term, the fans will love it. But this will make her refusal to join you in ME2 even a bigger joke than it already is, and will just make the character look fickle. When you replay the entire trilogy, the whole artificiality of Liara's character arc just becomes too much.

Whatever they choose to do, it will require good, sensitive writing in order for the character to be salvaged. I'm not sure the guy who wrecked Drew's Liara is up to the task... If Drew won't return, importing some talent from the Dragon Age team might be the answer.

I totally agree. I can't even believe that the devs did this. Isn't it obvious that her role is very dissapointing? This whole "darker second act" thing is really getting in my nerves. I mean the game is great, but they didn't need to make everycharacter go to the dark side. They better fix this with a DLC....
I really don't mind her work agaist the SB, it's very interesting and I am loving the comics, but her indeference to Shepard is just NOT realistic. No one who has saved another and waited two years would act like she does. Really weird <_<

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...
Yes, I'd say the GrimDarkification of Liara started in the comic. In the comic, she cannot interact with Shepard, or people who might be dead at some point in ME1 or 2. The comic won't touch topics that are important enough to be in the game, so Liara's story is ultimately a non essential side show.

Her new role as an information broker will also keep her on the sidelines, like Anderson and TIM, should they do as I now suspect and have her remain in her job for ME3 as well. Oh, she will be "important". But important in the way Anderson, Udina, and TIM are. And the romance with her will once again be a minor one, compared to whomever you have by your side in the squad.

It's a catch 22 the devs have made for themselves:

- Keep Liara as an information broker and the fans will hate it. It will only deepen her GrimDark UnLiara persona, and no one loves UnLiara. OTOH, it will provide some much needed stability and development for the wrecked character.

OR

- Have her join the squad. In the short term, the fans will love it. But this will make her refusal to join you in ME2 even a bigger joke than it already is, and will just make the character look fickle. When you replay the entire trilogy, the whole artificiality of Liara's character arc just becomes too much.

Whatever they choose to do, it will require good, sensitive writing in order for the character to be salvaged. I'm not sure the guy who wrecked Drew's Liara is up to the task... If Drew won't return, importing some talent from the Dragon Age team might be the answer.

I definitely agree they need Drew back. 

I think they aren't too concerned at this point about the integrity of Liara's (or anyone's) overall story arc in the trilogy.  I bet she'll return to the squad in ME3 and they'll just never mention her time as an informatin broker again.

[DarkNova50]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

CastroKathy wrote...

I was just thinking, could the existence of the comics hurt us in more ways than the oblivious “Oh, we didn’t need to put it into the game; it’s in the comic”. The writing for Liara is very comic book like, a couple of frames worth and get to the point, where I was looking for cinematic storytelling with more depth and character development. Of course this doesn’t hold true for the whole game, because in many places they were able to incorporate a cinematic feel into the game better than anything I’ve ever played (Tali loyalty and the suicide mission).

Yes, I'd say the GrimDarkification of Liara started in the comic. In the comic, she cannot interact with Shepard, or people who might be dead at some point in ME1 or 2. The comic won't touch topics that are important enough to be in the game, so Liara's story is ultimately a non essential side show.

Her new role as an information broker will also keep her on the sidelines, like Anderson and TIM, should they do as I now suspect and have her remain in her job for ME3 as well. Oh, she will be "important". But important in the way Anderson, Udina, and TIM are. And the romance with her will once again be a minor one, compared to whomever you have by your side in the squad.

It's a catch 22 the devs have made for themselves:

- Keep Liara as an information broker and the fans will hate it. It will only deepen her GrimDark UnLiara persona, and no one loves UnLiara. OTOH, it will provide some much needed stability and development for the wrecked character.

OR

- Have her join the squad. In the short term, the fans will love it. But this will make her refusal to join you in ME2 even a bigger joke than it already is, and will just make the character look fickle. When you replay the entire trilogy, the whole artificiality of Liara's character arc just becomes too much.

Whatever they choose to do, it will require good, sensitive writing in order for the character to be salvaged. I'm not sure the guy who wrecked Drew's Liara is up to the task... If Drew won't return, importing some talent from the Dragon Age team might be the answer.

I suppose that in ME3, they could always have Liara get captured by the Shadow Broker during her little vendetta. Then, upon hearing of this from one of Liara's associates, Shepard goes racing in on the Normandy like Major Kong in Slim Pickens, facerolls the Shadow Broker and saves Liara...again.

And there you have it. Liara never had to give up her revenge stint, Shadow Broker is dead, and Shepard gets his/her Asari buddy back.

[Nozybidaj]

Larask wrote...

I totally agree. I can't even believe that the devs did this. Isn't it obvious that her role is very dissapointing? This whole "darker second act" thing is really getting in my nerves. I mean the game is great, but they didn't need to make everycharacter go to the dark side. They better fix this with a DLC....
I really don't mind her work agaist the SB, it's very interesting and I am loving the comics, but her indeference to Shepard is just NOT realistic. No one who has saved another and waited two years would act like she does. Really weird <_<

Agree,  If it had been done well and both Shep and Liara had acted like real people in ME2 I would have completely bought into her hunt the SB thing.  But, they can't since the whole point of ME2 was to sideline the characters and their relationships.  The only thing wrong with ME2 is that.  This should have been the chapter where these relationships and connections were explored and deepened, not forgotten about.

Otherwise I think ME2 was done very well overall, even if amateurish.

[bjdbwea]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

- Have her join the squad. In the short term, the fans will love it. But this will make her refusal to join you in ME2 even a bigger joke than it already is, and will just make the character look fickle. When you replay the entire trilogy, the whole artificiality of Liara's character arc just becomes too much.

Hm, I don't think this point is that relevant. The fans would still be unhappy with part 2, sure, but as long as we get something better in ME 3, it'll not matter much anymore.

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

- Have her join the squad. In the short term, the fans will love it. But this will make her refusal to join you in ME2 even a bigger joke than it already is, and will just make the character look fickle. When you replay the entire trilogy, the whole artificiality of Liara's character arc just becomes too much.

Hm, I don't think this point is that relevant. The fans would still be unhappy with part 2, sure, but as long as we get something better in ME 3, it'll not matter much anymore.

It won't in 2 years when we actually get ME3.  Matters a lot at the moment however.

[SovereignT]

Liara played a critical role in the sequel which time and time again I see people who cant fully comprehend..



If Liara hadn't became an information broker and went after the shadow broker Shep wouldn't even have had a 2nd chance and may have been turned into fuel for the human reaper.



She was able to pry his/her body away from shadow broker and prevent it from being sold to the collectors which is far superior a role played in this game then what she has EVER done.

[WilliamShatner]

Having just read what BioWare are doing with the DA LI/romances doesn't inspire much hope in the future of ME LI!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/1180276/1

Screwing over your romance seems to be a running trend in BioWare games.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 13 février 2010 - 06:25 .

[jienoma]

Nozybidaj wrote...
I definitely agree they need Drew back. 

I think they aren't too concerned at this point about the integrity of Liara's (or anyone's) overall story arc in the trilogy.  I bet she'll return to the squad in ME3 and they'll just never mention her time as an informatin broker again.

The new writer has not been able to give ME2 a decent plot, the whole narration has made a step back, a huge one, there are holes in the story as big as an elephant, and for the love of ME franchise and its fans, they need to change something in the writing direction, or the next episode will be even worst.

Liara is salvageable with a very well written DLC, if not ME will start and finish with the first episode for me.

[Mox Ruuga]

bjdbwea wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

- Have her join the squad. In the short term, the fans will love it. But this will make her refusal to join you in ME2 even a bigger joke than it already is, and will just make the character look fickle. When you replay the entire trilogy, the whole artificiality of Liara's character arc just becomes too much.

Hm, I don't think this point is that relevant. The fans would still be unhappy with part 2, sure, but as long as we get something better in ME 3, it'll not matter much anymore.

Heh, but you see, I'm not one to be satisfied with scraps and leftovers. If Liara becomes the "inferior legacy LI", my liking of the character will turn to nostalgia, and then I will get over the nostalgia.

Give us the great 3 act romance story Bioware, or scrap the whole thing. If they end up half assing the Liara / Shepard romance, and I have to say it's teetering on the brink, I will abandon it and never play it again. They will have their hands full in trying to salvage the character for ME3. And I don't think the poor bastards even know they have a wreck in their hands after ME2...

The whole continuing story across the trilogy is what made me so enthusiastic about Mass Effect in the first place. I will just romance Miranda and Ash (should they fare better than Liara), or have my Shepards stay single.

[Nozybidaj]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Having just read what BioWare are doing with the DA LI/romances doesn't inspire much hope in the future of ME LI!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/1180276/1

Screwing over your romance seems to be a running trend in BioWare games.

That is a disappointment.  It seems like BW while great at introducing new characters is completely unable to actually "develop" characters. 

I don't expect Shakespeare or even (for an in-genre reference) George Lucas level of story telling here, but hell, to completely hit the reset button every time they make a new game in a series, and in this case an expansion to an existing game, is getting more than a little tedious.

BW needs to step outside their comfort zone here and give us something epic with any Liara expansion coming down the pipe.

[crimzontearz]

the biggest joke is that the devs are totally silent about it...not even the slightest aknowledgement.



But maybe they don't have to.... I mean it's not like they told us that our ME1 LI would be given a non cenral yet conspicuous part right?



...oh wait...

[Nozybidaj]

jienoma wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
I definitely agree they need Drew back. 

I think they aren't too concerned at this point about the integrity of Liara's (or anyone's) overall story arc in the trilogy.  I bet she'll return to the squad in ME3 and they'll just never mention her time as an informatin broker again.

The new writer has not been able to give ME2 a decent plot, the whole narration has made a step back, a huge one, there are holes in the story as big as an elephant, and for the love of ME franchise and its fans, they need to change something in the writing direction, or the next episode will be even worst.

Liara is salvageable with a very well written DLC, if not ME will start and finish with the first episode for me.

Agreed.  At this point, if they can turn the ship around I'd be more than happy to import my ME1 save into ME3 and forget ME2 ever happened, that is if ME3 is going to be worth it.  Otherwise I'll simply pass on any expansion and ME3 and just keep ME1 as the jewel it was.

[Mox Ruuga]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Having just read what BioWare are doing with the DA LI/romances doesn't inspire much hope in the future of ME LI!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/1180276/1

Screwing over your romance seems to be a running trend in BioWare games.

Like Liara, goes Leliana I see...

Hm... I will be reading the reviews of this expansion carefully before buying it. New spells, specializations, and angry squad-- party members were not high on my wish list. But we'll see, I have more trust in the DA:O team than the ME team currently.

[tonnactus]

Driveninhifi wrote...

An interesting implication there is that she is in love with Shepard regardless of whether or not Shepard loves her. If that is the case, and Shepard does not love her, the exchange makes a lot of sense as it is in game.

I though that was clear?She loves shepardt regardless if he was her partner in Mass Effect 1 or not.

[Daeion]

RhythmlessNinja wrote...

I'd love to drop a 1 ton ball on Liara, what a ****. Been dead 2 years & all I got was a kiss & a hug then told to gtfo. She's become an obsessed freak, I wouldnt replace her with any of my current squadmates that's for sure. Glad she is a NPC now. And same goes for Ashley...2 years dead & I get blown off again, seriously what the hell? Those 2 chicks no longer welcome on the ship. At least my boy Wrex has a logical explanation of why he can't assist you.

And you can thank BioWares apparent inability to write a trilogy for Ash and Liara turning out how they did.

[Mox Ruuga]

Daeion wrote...

RhythmlessNinja wrote...

I'd love to drop a 1 ton ball on Liara, what a ****. Been dead 2 years & all I got was a kiss & a hug then told to gtfo. She's become an obsessed freak, I wouldnt replace her with any of my current squadmates that's for sure. Glad she is a NPC now. And same goes for Ashley...2 years dead & I get blown off again, seriously what the hell? Those 2 chicks no longer welcome on the ship. At least my boy Wrex has a logical explanation of why he can't assist you.

And you can thank BioWares apparent inability to write a trilogy for Ash and Liara turning out how they did.

Indeed. They took the wrecking ball to the former LIs. Apparently, these ****** poor cameos are the roles "that will make sense once we get to play the game for ourselves and see".

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Daeion wrote...

RhythmlessNinja wrote...

I'd love to drop a 1 ton ball on Liara, what a ****. Been dead 2 years & all I got was a kiss & a hug then told to gtfo. She's become an obsessed freak, I wouldnt replace her with any of my current squadmates that's for sure. Glad she is a NPC now. And same goes for Ashley...2 years dead & I get blown off again, seriously what the hell? Those 2 chicks no longer welcome on the ship. At least my boy Wrex has a logical explanation of why he can't assist you.

And you can thank BioWares apparent inability to write a trilogy for Ash and Liara turning out how they did.

Indeed. They took the wrecking ball to the former LIs. Apparently, these ****** poor cameos are the roles "that will make sense once we get to play the game for ourselves and see".

Yeah, now that I see for myself the only thing that makes sense is that BW took a hatchet to the old LI's for no reason.  /shrug

[bjdbwea]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Heh, but you see, I'm not one to be satisfied with scraps and leftovers. If Liara becomes the "inferior legacy LI", my liking of the character will turn to nostalgia, and then I will get over the nostalgia.

Legacy maybe, inferior probably not. Let's face it, the romances in ME 2 weren't nearly as well written and implemented as in ME 1. I don't think we'll suddenly see great and beautiful romances with new LIs in ME 3, while screwing the existing ones again. Either the writing as a whole will improve, then the fans of all different LIs will probably be satisfied - or they'll just continue on the current path, then probably all existing LIs (from ME 1 and 2) will get screwed. The reviews are stellar after all, and the sales numbers are there. Why, then, go the extra mile? Seeing that news about the DA add-on, the latter approach seems more likely. Though I really wouldn't have expected that, since the "true RPG audience" seems to find romances even more important than the (new) ME followers. It's all a bit... puzzling.

And, to stay on topic, it isn't exactly encouraging for Liara fans.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 13 février 2010 - 09:12 .

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

And, to stay on topic, it isn't exactly encouraging for Liara fans.

That pretty much describes everything since the end of ME1.