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Devs really dropped the ball with Liara...


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#1101
Sharn01

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WilliamShatner wrote...

Having just read what BioWare are doing with the DA LI/romances doesn't inspire much hope in the future of ME LI!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/1180276/1

Screwing over your romance seems to be a running trend in BioWare games.


Looks like I will be skipping DA Awakening.

Whats the point of my epilogue in DA if they are just going to throw it out the window in the next one.  It is time Bioware started using their heads, if they are not talented enough to continue an ongoing story with proper charcter development then stop attempting it.

Make a new story, with new character's, its easier, you dont need character depth, you only have to worry about the akward initial romance if you have a romance option, you dont need to worry about continueing friendship's. It is certainly easier for dialog when you dont have to accomodate for different reactions based on previous decisions.  It is a tall order to do sequal's properly, but I HAD faith in Bioware to do it right, I am sorry to say my trust was misplaced.

Modifié par Sharn01, 13 février 2010 - 09:33 .


#1102
Nozybidaj

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Sharn01 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Having just read what BioWare are doing with the DA LI/romances doesn't inspire much hope in the future of ME LI!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/1180276/1

Screwing over your romance seems to be a running trend in BioWare games.


Looks like I will be skipping DA Awakening.

Whats the point of my epilogue in DA if they are just going to throw it out the window in the next one.  It is time Bioware started using their heads, if they are not talented enough to continue an ongoing story with proper charcter development then stop attempting it.

Make a new story, with new character's, its easier, you dont need character depth, you only have to worry about the akward initial romance if you have a romance option, you dont need to worry about continueing friendship's. It is certainly easier for dialog when you dont have to accomodate for different reactions based on previous decisions.  It is a tall order to do sequal's properly, but I HAD faith in Bioware to do it right, I am sorry to say my trust was misplaced.


Agreed.  I think ME2 would have been great if Conrad had been the protagonist and Garrus/Tali had been kept out of it, keep everything else the same.  They could have classified it as a spin off and continued working on a real story for ME2 till they could get it right.  A Conrad/Jack love scene would have been a thing of epic proportions.

#1103
Lord Atlia

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After looking over Awakening I am really disappointed with Bioware and I will not support it with my wallet. In all honesty I would take returning characters and a linear story over a non linear story but with no returning characters any day of the week. This is just getting sad I remember my Baldur's Gate days and having the same party through almost the entire series (PC, Jaheira, Minsc, Edwin, Imoen).

#1104
Nozybidaj

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Lord Atlia wrote...

After looking over Awakening I am really disappointed with Bioware and I will not support it with my wallet. In all honesty I would take returning characters and a linear story over a non linear story but with no returning characters any day of the week. This is just getting sad I remember my Baldur's Gate days and having the same party through almost the entire series (PC, Jaheira, Minsc, Edwin, Imoen).


Agreed, I had been holding off on pre-ordeing Awakenings becaue of the whole Liara fiasco, but I think I'll just simply pass on it at this point.  Having every new episode hit the reset button just breaks all attachment I have with these worlds and the characters, its such a weird direction BW has chosen to go.  I'd think they would want to really hammer home and play on all these emotinal attachments people make with these characters, it is just so out place getting new squad memebers every step of the way.

#1105
phatpat63

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Sharn01 wrote...

Looks like I will be skipping DA Awakening.

Whats the point of my epilogue in DA if they are just going to throw it out the window in the next one.  It is time Bioware started using their heads, if they are not talented enough to continue an ongoing story with proper charcter development then stop attempting it.

Make a new story, with new character's, its easier, you dont need character depth, you only have to worry about the akward initial romance if you have a romance option, you dont need to worry about continueing friendship's. It is certainly easier for dialog when you dont have to accomodate for different reactions based on previous decisions.  It is a tall order to do sequal's properly, but I HAD faith in Bioware to do it right, I am sorry to say my trust was misplaced.


Amen

#1106
ThisIsMadness91

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WilliamShatner wrote...

Having just read what BioWare are doing with the DA LI/romances doesn't inspire much hope in the future of ME LI!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/1180276/1

Screwing over your romance seems to be a running trend in BioWare games.


Damn. I haven't even gotten around to starting DA:O yet, and I already feel that there's no point in me getting close to anyone apart from for achievements. Next thhing you know, any kind-hearted characters from DA:O will be "darker and edgier" in Awakening (and Morrigan will become a nun).

It's sad, at first I had worries about ME2, then I liked it, then looking over it again, I see so many flaws it's hard to believe it's by the same company that made ME1. I still like it, but I think I got my hopes up too high. Now that the inital hype has gone down a bit, I'm seeing shameful things I missed before.

#1107
FiveThreeTen

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ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Having just read what BioWare are doing with the DA LI/romances doesn't inspire much hope in the future of ME LI!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/1180276/1

Screwing over your romance seems to be a running trend in BioWare games.


Damn. I haven't even gotten around to starting DA:O yet, and I already feel that there's no point in me getting close to anyone apart from for achievements. Next thhing you know, any kind-hearted characters from DA:O will be "darker and edgier" in Awakening (and Morrigan will become a nun).

It's sad, at first I had worries about ME2, then I liked it, then looking over it again, I see so many flaws it's hard to believe it's by the same company that made ME1. I still like it, but I think I got my hopes up too high. Now that the inital hype has gone down a bit, I'm seeing shameful things I missed before.


QFT
ME2 isn't really a bad game . But I sure won't be replaying it as much as I did with ME1 .
And I agree with the OP, concerning Liara and the other ME1 LI .

Was it so difficult to make them send you more emails ? It doesn't require extra VA nor it should take much disk space .

#1108
Nayt Navare

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The Awakening fiasco is off topic, but I agree- WTF, what happened to all of our relationships and friendships? Why did we build our characters just to have ALMOST EVERYTHING taken away? Your armor, your party, your weapons, all gone.



So, this just seems a new precedent for how Bioware treats the characters and stories. Sure, your choices are there, but it seems that, when it matters, the choices just fizzle.



Sad face.

#1109
Nozybidaj

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FiveThreeTen wrote...

ME2 isn't really a bad game . But I sure won't be replaying it as much as I did with ME1 .
And I agree with the OP, concerning Liara and the other ME1 LI .

Was it so difficult to make them send you more emails ? It doesn't require extra VA nor it should take much disk space .


ME2 isn't a bad game.  It's just the directions and examples of things that are bad are completely overpowering.

#1110
Arturia Pendragon

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Sharn01 wrote...

Looks like I will be skipping DA Awakening.

Whats the point of my epilogue in DA if they are just going to throw it out the window in the next one.  It is time Bioware started using their heads, if they are not talented enough to continue an ongoing story with proper charcter development then stop attempting it.

Make a new story, with new character's, its easier, you dont need character depth, you only have to worry about the akward initial romance if you have a romance option, you dont need to worry about continueing friendship's. It is certainly easier for dialog when you dont have to accomodate for different reactions based on previous decisions.  It is a tall order to do sequal's properly, but I HAD faith in Bioware to do it right, I am sorry to say my trust was misplaced.


QFT.

#1111
crimzontearz

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so wait a second ......



are you telling me that in the possible mass effect "expansion pack" that was hinted at by the devs for ME2 we will likely just lose our ME1&2 love interest???



are you ****ing me???



well I know I am not gonna bother with awakening then.....good riddance then it's an extra 25$ in store credit from GS once I trade in my DAO




#1112
Nozybidaj

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crimzontearz wrote...


are you telling me that in the possible mass effect "expansion pack" that was hinted at by the devs for ME2 we will likely just lose our ME1&2 love interest???


I suppose that is always a possibility.  We don't know anything about ME2 expansions yet.

#1113
Sharn01

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I am guessing he meant Dragon Age and just typed Mass Effect since that is the forums we are in.



It was off topic, but it was worth bringing up, because it shows a pattern that Bioware is developing for sequal's. First they shaft the ME1 decision's, primarily the LI in ME2, then they go do a DA expansion pack, and worse then just shaft the romances and friendship's from the origonal, they just pretend it never happened.



If Dragon Age's Leliana who chose to stay with the PC in his/her travels after the game can just be dropped off the map with out so much as an explanation, what can we expect for the treatment of Liara in Mass Effect?

#1114
The Questioning Motive

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Daeion wrote...

The Questioning Motive wrote...

I don't like the new Liara. She makes me feel impotent and afraid. Is that bad?

Anyway, I hope that there is in fact DLC with Liara and shepard. Because I personally find Liara very cardboard-esque. I hope there's more to deal with her, like she actually shows some symbolism and visits Shepard, if not... well... Isaac Shepard is going to be spending time with Miranda/Jack/Tali/Kelly for a while. :D


HOW DARE YOU CHEAT ON THE BLUE ANGEL!!!!!!


Did it three times bro. :D Buuut, I'm going through a few playthroughs. I love the LI interests. But I do miss innocent Liara. She's still got the emotions of a robot.

#1115
Nozybidaj

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Sharn01 wrote...

It was off topic, but it was worth bringing up, because it shows a pattern that Bioware is developing for sequal's. First they shaft the ME1 decision's, primarily the LI in ME2, then they go do a DA expansion pack, and worse then just shaft the romances and friendship's from the origonal, they just pretend it never happened.


Isn' that pretty much what happened here?  It really felt like BW would have rather not even admitted there were LI's in ME1.

#1116
Guest_Shavon_*

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crimzontearz wrote...

so wait a second ......

are you telling me that in the possible mass effect "expansion pack" that was hinted at by the devs for ME2 we will likely just lose our ME1&2 love interest???

are you ****ing me???

well I know I am not gonna bother with awakening then.....good riddance then it's an extra 25$ in store credit from GS once I trade in my DAO


Nope.  They will not be acknowledged, reason being, well:

David Gaider wrote...

Just regarding those asking about the romances, by "not continue" it just means you don't have a chance to actively continue the relationship during the course of this adventure. It does not mean that you mysteriously broke up or that the romance is not recognized to exist. I would have liked to have cameos by everyone, but that simply wasn't possible. As it is, you may find some treats awaiting you -- recognizing past decisions can be done in small ways, as well as large (and this applies to things outside of romances, as well).


We can assume that's what will happen in expansions or dlc's unless we complain loud enough.
Or if it's a romance dlc  :)

#1117
bjdbwea

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To be fair, they don't pretend it never happened. Just that "you don't have a chance to actively continue the relationship during the course of this adventure. It does not mean that you mysteriously broke up or that the romance is not recognized to exist." Some folks in the DA forum were reassured by this. Guess they didn't play ME 2. To me this sounds very much like what happened with Liara (and Ashley and Kaidan). I'm still trying to find an explanation other than saving development time by scrapping "unnecessary" bits.

EDIT: See above for the full quote.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 13 février 2010 - 11:59 .


#1118
Nozybidaj

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bjdbwea wrote...

To be fair, they don't pretend it never happened. Just that "you don't have a chance to actively continue the relationship during the course of this adventure. It does not mean that you mysteriously broke up or that the romance is not recognized to exist." Some folks in the DA forum were reassured by this. Guess they didn't play ME 2. To me this sounds very much like what happened with Liara (and Ashley and Kaidan). I'm still trying to find an explanation other than saving development time by scrapping "unnecessary" bits.

EDIT: See above for the full quote.


At the very least at least the DA team is up front about and tells you there is no active continuation. 

The ME team seemed to think an email and/or a picutre was sufficient content to warrant a "continuing romance of a 3 part love story".

#1119
Wolfehunter

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I too was disappointed with her behavior. I would have knocked all the stuff off her desk and we would have had action right then and there.. muhahahaa.. Screw cerberus and the others... The whole story thing was a insult.


#1120
Nozybidaj

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Wolfehunter wrote...

I too was disappointed with her behavior. I would have knocked all the stuff off her desk and we would have had action right then and there.. muhahahaa.. Screw cerberus and the others... The whole story thing was a insult.


There is so much they could have done with Liara and the other LI's in a proper sequel, its a real shame they decided to do nothing.

#1121
flem1

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ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Having just read what BioWare are doing with the DA LI/romances doesn't inspire much hope in the future of ME LI!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/1180276/1

Screwing over your romance seems to be a running trend in BioWare games.


Damn. I haven't even gotten around to starting DA:O yet, and I already feel that there's no point in me getting close to anyone apart from for achievements. Next thhing you know, any kind-hearted characters from DA:O will be "darker and edgier" in Awakening (and Morrigan will become a nun).

Trust me, this reveal about the Awakening shouldn't stop you from doing the Morrigan romance.  Seriously.

#1122
Sigilius

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I am so sick and tired of suffering on Bioware's account. They give us wonderful characters whose personalities and characteristics are both realistic and lovable, then decide that continuing such old flames in a sequel would make too much sense. Therefore, following the standard Bioware train of thought, angering the fanbase who legitimately cares about the characters is preferrable to not providing new, thoroughly dislikable party members whose presence is merely for sex appeal, and to encourage cheating.

They obviously feel that it is easier to introduce a new romance, hit the proverbial "reset" button, and start from sctach, rather than, I don't know... make the game enjoyable and build on an old romance. It wouldn't hurt the story, oh BW, to keep a romance going into the stages beyond the initial attraction and mindless... well, you know. It's far more realistic! Why can't Liara remain Shepard's mate? Would that cramp his style or something? Don't want to distract from the story with features that actually made us buy the game?

We bought this game because it promised the revolutionary idea of carrying over your decisions, but it seems that they're afraid to commit to such a big endeavour (You're making an RPG! What did you think this would be, easy?) . We don't want brief cameos from characters we care about, we want them to remain as integral to the plot as Shepard himself (Or herself, political correctness and all). Shepard is only part of what made Mass Effect great! It's like having a delicious cake that isn't a lie (Portal joke), then deciding you would like to buy another. But the bakers decided that they want to continue impressing (Yes, I am quite aware they could just keep selling you the same great cake, but bear with me here!Image IPB), so they add all these extra fixings, while removing 89% of what made the original so great! We didn't come back to taste more chocolate icing, we came back to enjoy the whole experience! The icing is only part of what makes it great! (Now I'm going to stop this cake simile before I really embarass myself... Too late.Image IPB)

Ultimately, I just want my old Liara back. Or even my new, darker one (I understand she's been through a lot). It's not uncool to stay together with your old love. Sure, you want to expand, try new things, "keep it fresh" and what not, but why not accomodate us nostalgic old fools who just want one soul to love? Nice try there with the beautiful Australian chick, mates, but I'm a blue-skin-loving kind of guy. The point of a sequel of this proportion and design is to expand on what was already great, provide new things for those of us who have high enough standards to expect new characters, but don't leave us devoted fans out in the cold! We just want what was promised to us, and continue our old romances! Do what you will with new characters!

Modifié par Sigilius, 14 février 2010 - 01:58 .


#1123
The Questioning Motive

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Personally Mass Effect 2 is the better of the series, better acting, the story is pretty nice. I wish they did more about Liara, but you know, there's always room for improvement specifically the reason why there's DLC. I'm going to say this now, I'd rather give my money to Bioware than to any other gaming company, of course everyone will nitpick about the game. It's like if you jump off a cliff, you'll complain that the ground is too soft, or your legs aren't broken enough. I understand that there's going to be complaints, but Christ, they're trying their hardest, there's 3 million people who bought this game, they can't answer everything!



Lots of stuff carried over. There's probably going to be more stuff coming out, specifically things for the romance subplots. But time can only tell. Maybe a better written Liara, but for right now, we just need to play the game enjoy what we have and expect more.

#1124
Unit-Alpha

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Again, a bit off topic, but I intend to avoid Awakening as well. It's ridiculous that the story/romances/party are just discarded to make it easier for the devs. That's crap, BW. We expect you to do better than this.

#1125
Nozybidaj

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The Questioning Motive wrote...

Personally Mass Effect 2 is the better of the series, better acting, the story is pretty nice. I wish they did more about Liara, but you know, there's always room for improvement specifically the reason why there's DLC. I'm going to say this now, I'd rather give my money to Bioware than to any other gaming company, of course everyone will nitpick about the game. It's like if you jump off a cliff, you'll complain that the ground is too soft, or your legs aren't broken enough. I understand that there's going to be complaints, but Christ, they're trying their hardest, there's 3 million people who bought this game, they can't answer everything!

Lots of stuff carried over. There's probably going to be more stuff coming out, specifically things for the romance subplots. But time can only tell. Maybe a better written Liara, but for right now, we just need to play the game enjoy what we have and expect more.


This isn't like nitpicking about helmets not being removable, this was a core part of what made our Shepards unique and what created our emotional attachment to the game, the characters, and the ME universe.  I'm not asking them to answer "everything" I'd just be happy to have the core motivation for my Shepard and my love of ME1 to be in the game.  I don't think that was too much to ask for.