1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Garrus]

I agree with the topic´s premise. All in all, they dropped the ball with most of the returning squad members in terms of dialogue and relatioship (except maybe Tali). Garrus could have used a lot more dialogues with Shep. They could bring back memories, and his loyalty could be something different. He was already loyal. And could have used some better powers after the loyalty mission.

And Liara as a LI having just a couple of extra scenes than any other decision you´ve made in ME1 was ackward. As was with Ash. But with Ash was more believable, since she showed more emotion, and stayed true to her loyalty to the Alliance.

[Adon 9]

I think one of the big issues when you deal with Liara in ME2 is the whole 'elephant in the living room' bit. That is, she's cool and distant to Shepard, Shepard is presented as being mildly put out by her behavior but that's it... and there's this big 2 ton elephant sitting there with "Hey, love interest returned from the dead and freaking WREX seems happier to see them back" written all over it. You can dance around it, but that elephant is still there and is kind of hard to ignore, which makes ignoring it seem rediculous.

[Mox Ruuga]

Adon 9 wrote...

I think one of the big issues when you deal with Liara in ME2 is the whole 'elephant in the living room' bit. That is, she's cool and distant to Shepard, Shepard is presented as being mildly put out by her behavior but that's it... and there's this big 2 ton elephant sitting there with "Hey, love interest returned from the dead and freaking WREX seems happier to see them back" written all over it. You can dance around it, but that elephant is still there and is kind of hard to ignore, which makes ignoring it seem rediculous.

Yeah.

It's one thing to write Liara as a completely new character.

It's something else completely to not allow her former commander/friend/lover to really react to that change, outside of lightly questioning her and then just rolling with the BS she comes up with.

The whole reunion with Liara called for several interrupts, both Renegade and Paragon.

The devs spoke so much about emotional engagement prior to the release. If indeed this was supposed to have been the difficult 2nd act in a three act romance, why not take advantage and have the characters really get mad at each other? It would have been the place to show that even Shepard has his/her limits, and that a brush off from someone s/he loves and has been waiting to see ever since s/he woke up in that overrun Cerberus base will not be swallowed meekly. It would have been THE place for a crossroads decision, to continue the romance or to not continue. None of this infantile "lolz we are tracking the cheeterz" from Bioware.

And then there is the thing about keeping her office open for us. What was the point, if she doesn't have anything to say? The whole gazing at the picture before the end is much weaker than with Ash and Kaidan, since Shepard can't go to them before the end and say goodbye. Well, you can visit Liara, but you can't really say anything about this being possibly the last you will ever see of each other to her. With Ash and Kaidan, the whole regret about that unhappy meeting on Horizon when s/he gazes at the picture is much stronger. And Ash and Kaidan have at least made it clear that the next time you meet, they won't have something useless like fv(king hacking missions in their mind.

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

It's one thing to write Liara as a completely new character.

It's something else completely to not allow her former commander/friend/lover to really react to that change, outside of lightly questioning her and then just rolling with the BS she comes up with.

That seems to be Shepard's M.O. throughout the whole game though, especially in his dealings with TIM.  When Cerberus rebuilt him they forgot to give him a backbone apparently.

The devs spoke so much about emotional engagement prior to the release. If indeed this was supposed to have been the difficult 2nd act in a three act romance, why not take advantage and have the characters really get mad at each other? It would have been the place to show that even Shepard has his/her limits, and that a brush off from someone s/he loves and has been waiting to see ever since s/he woke up in that overrun Cerberus base will not be swallowed meekly. It would have been THE place for a crossroads decision, to continue the romance or to not continue. None of this infantile "lolz we are tracking the cheeterz" from Bioware.

Completely agree.  Thing is though, if they really wanted us to be emotinally engaged they wouldn't have just cut the LI's completely out of the game.  That's another topic than what your post addresses though.  Also I am putting that in my sig.

And then there is the thing about keeping her office open for us. What was the point, if she doesn't have anything to say? The whole gazing at the picture before the end is much weaker than with Ash and Kaidan, since Shepard can't go to them before the end and say goodbye. Well, you can visit Liara, but you can't really say anything about this being possibly the last you will ever see of each other to her. With Ash and Kaidan, the whole regret about that unhappy meeting on Horizon when s/he gazes at the picture is much stronger. And Ash and Kaidan have at least made it clear that the next time you meet, they won't have something useless like fv(king hacking missions in their mind.

Completely agree again, all excellent points.

Given the confines of the story we have to work in, everything you said makes sense and would have made for a much more engaging experience for Liara LI's.

[Mox Ruuga]

Nozybidaj wrote...

That seems to be Shepard's M.O. throughout the whole game though, especially in his dealings with TIM.  When Cerberus rebuilt him they forgot to give him a backbone apparently.

Perhaps the backbone was surgically removed? IIRC the original plan of Bioware was to have the beginning sequence end up even quicker and with less complaint from Shepard, until one of the writers, I think Weekes, had the idea of putting in at least some token resistance from Shepard against working for/trusting Cerberus and TIM.

Completely agree.  Thing is though, if they really wanted us to be emotinally engaged they wouldn't have just cut the LI's completely out of the game.  That's another topic than what your post addresses though.  Also I am putting that in my sig.

I don't know where the emotional engagement was supposed to be in? In the new characters? We were supposed to forget about the greater story for this game, forget about all that happened in the first game and just get "engaged" by this new posse, who by definition are expendable assests, living bullets, to be used against the Collectors? Shepard doesn't recruit them for the sake of defeating the Reapers when the end game occurs, since Shepard and TIM don't even know if/when that will happen... They are the crew to be used for the Base Assault, nothing more.

Completely agree again, all excellent points.

Given the confines of the story we have to work in, everything you said makes sense and would have made for a much more engaging experience for Liara LI's.

It really is a waste, what they did to her. Rather she had not been in the game at all, or that she had died during the Normandy crash, than this character wrecking for both her and in-love-with-Liara-Shepard. ME2 really held no great extra value for returning ME1 players. Unless they were Tali or Garrus fans I guess. And even they had to stomach idiotic reset buttons like the whole "Sovereign was just a geth ship" council farce.

[ComTrav]

Ok, I saw the DAO: Awakening thing a few pages back, and I think it's a false comparison.



DAO is a complete story in one game. DAO is really LONG. I can do relatively complete playthroughs of ME1 and ME2 in the time it takes me to do a relatively complete playthrough of DAO. More improtantly, the arc reflects this. There's no "I'm going to beat the Blight" moment at the end of DAO, because you beat it. The resolution to the main plot is not punted forward.



This is also true of the romance plots. It's possible to get the love scene relatively early in DAO; in fact, it's possible to work your way through 3 out of 4 of them in one playthrough. The rest of the game builds on that dynamic, with Wynne commenting on your LI, Morrigan trying to break the relationship off, etc.



Depending on your ending, your DAO LI plot feels like it's been through a lot, and it feels like it's had a beginning/middle/end, and there doesn't seem like much of a need for more to it.



ME (both of them), you have a few flirtatious/romantic scenes, and then you need to wait until the final battle to 'seal the deal'. There's no complications, no follow-on stuff. It feels like only part of the arc. Because each ME game is intended to only be part of the grander story of Shepard, unlike a completely self-contained story like DAO.

[Sharn01]

The comparson had more to do with a returning main character, and people who in your epilogue planned to stay with you as either a lover, a friend, or you loyal imprinted Dog who will be by your side until one of you dies, all disappear.

You are correct about it being a more complete story, but when a gaming company advertises you continueing with a character, things said character did in the past should carry over.

There is nothing wrong with having player's make a new character for a new adventure, if you do not want to take the time to make a true sequel, do not make it a sequel.

When I first heard about a Mass Effect 2, I did not think it would be Shepard at first, if anything I thought they may allow you to use your save so your decision's would be reflected in the game, and maybe your old Shep with your look could make a cameo appearance, perhaps as the mentor for a new Spectre, maybe even his/her love interest would be by his side in the early mentor stage of the game.

When I found out it was a direct sequel for Shepard, I was worried, but I figured if any one could do it Bioware could, so far though, they are not proving to me with now two separate examples that they are capable of continueing the story of the same indiviual in to another game successfully.

Modifié par Sharn01, 14 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[CastroKathy]

Nozybidaj wrote...

The devs spoke so much about emotional engagement prior to the release. If indeed this was supposed to have been the difficult 2nd act in a three act romance, why not take advantage and have the characters really get mad at each other? It would have been the place to show that even Shepard has his/her limits, and that a brush off from someone s/he loves and has been waiting to see ever since s/he woke up in that overrun Cerberus base will not be swallowed meekly. It would have been THE place for a crossroads decision, to continue the romance or to not continue. None of this infantile "lolz we are tracking the cheeterz" from Bioware.

 

This. They utterly failed at storytelling 101. I just finished my second play through and I was kind of depressed watching poor old Shepard knock around the Normandy alone and loveless…
I played through ME1 around 6 times, I don’t even want to do it a third time with ME2. I’m just not emotionally engaged with the story like I was two years ago.

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

It really is a waste, what they did to her. Rather she had not been in the game at all, or that she had died during the Normandy crash, than this character wrecking for both her and in-love-with-Liara-Shepard. ME2 really held no great extra value for returning ME1 players. Unless they were Tali or Garrus fans I guess. And even they had to stomach idiotic reset buttons like the whole "Sovereign was just a geth ship" council farce.

I completely agree, I would have rather she wasn't in the game at all then have to stomach what they have done with her in the comic/ME2.  I also still have the feeling the comics are just going to make it worse, but I try and not admit that to myself.  

[jlb524]

I finally asked Liara why she was threatening to flay that guy alive with her mind. It's just b/c he owed her money. *lip quivers, starts to weep*

Modifié par jlb524, 14 février 2010 - 03:18 .

[Nozybidaj]

ComTrav wrote...

Ok, I saw the DAO: Awakening thing a few pages back, and I think it's a false comparison.

DAO is a complete story in one game. DAO is really LONG. I can do relatively complete playthroughs of ME1 and ME2 in the time it takes me to do a relatively complete playthrough of DAO. More improtantly, the arc reflects this. There's no "I'm going to beat the Blight" moment at the end of DAO, because you beat it. The resolution to the main plot is not punted forward.

This is also true of the romance plots. It's possible to get the love scene relatively early in DAO; in fact, it's possible to work your way through 3 out of 4 of them in one playthrough. The rest of the game builds on that dynamic, with Wynne commenting on your LI, Morrigan trying to break the relationship off, etc.

Depending on your ending, your DAO LI plot feels like it's been through a lot, and it feels like it's had a beginning/middle/end, and there doesn't seem like much of a need for more to it.

ME (both of them), you have a few flirtatious/romantic scenes, and then you need to wait until the final battle to 'seal the deal'. There's no complications, no follow-on stuff. It feels like only part of the arc. Because each ME game is intended to only be part of the grander story of Shepard, unlike a completely self-contained story like DAO.

I don't disagree at all.  I think that is a very astute observation.  Too bad the ME1 LI's are now missing the "middle" out of the "beginning/middle/end" of their story.  I guess we have to wait and see if they have an "end".

[bjdbwea]

Sharn01 wrote...

When I found out it was a direct sequel for Shepard, I was worried, but I figured if any one could do it Bioware could, so far though, they are not proving to me with now two separate examples that they are capable of continueing the story of the same indiviual in to another game successfully.

I really do think that one policy for them is not to put new players in a disadvantage. That's why they invested a considerable amount of work into all that new stuff, and the "legacy" stuff was put low on the priority list. Add BioWare's new circumstances, where they can't work on a game as long anymore as they perhaps wanted (and as long as it would take to really make another master piece), and you get to the point where we are.

On the other hand, it makes the DA thing even more puzzling. We're talking about an add-on here after all, so virtually ALL buyers will have played the main game. It doesn't even run without the main game! It really makes not much sense in this scenario to again trash not only the LIs, but all established companions.

Back to ME 2, they still included two party members from ME 1. I didn't frequent the forums, but I guess the Liara fans just didn't scream loud enough, or maybe there just aren't as many (though I doubt that), otherwise perhaps she'd have been one of the few returning crew members. That said, I'm glad the discussion in this thread is as level-headed and mannered as it is.

[Sigilius]

They can still save this story. If they reveal to us their master plan, the reason they've been silent, is because it was all in the cards, and a truly epic romance awaits our Shepards, we will all be placated, I'm sure. It's all we want. Keep your new characters, or don't, it doesn't matter! The emotional attachment we were promised was supposed to be to the old characters, and yet they barely return!



God, am I the only one who wanted to give Liara the galaxy's biggest hug over that desk? It would do something to warm her frozen heart!

[Nozybidaj]

Littledoom wrote...

So you think it's a good thing they kicked the existing fan base in the face to make it easy for the new players? Sounds rely stupid to me.

I don't think that is what he said, quite the opposite in fact, unless you were replying to a different post.

But yes, they kicked the existing fan base in the face.  We were expecting a three part story, I don't want to have to settle for a two parter at this point.

[morrie23]

Littledoom wrote...

So you think it's a good thing they kicked the existing fan base in the face to make it easy for the new players? Sounds rely stupid to me.

It is really stupid, also it puzzles me because they put content in the game for certain ME1 players (i.e. those who wanted to jump tali's and garrus' bones) that will mean little to new players.

[bjdbwea]

Where did I say it's a good thing? Can't stand the way they treated us existing fans. Just discussing the reasons.

[Nozybidaj]

Sigilius wrote...

They can still save this story. If they reveal to us their master plan, the reason they've been silent, is because it was all in the cards, and a truly epic romance awaits our Shepards, we will all be placated, I'm sure. It's all we want. Keep your new characters, or don't, it doesn't matter! The emotional attachment we were promised was supposed to be to the old characters, and yet they barely return!

God, am I the only one who wanted to give Liara the galaxy's biggest hug over that desk? It would do something to warm her frozen heart!

This!  Especailly the hug part.

I do hope the are quietly sitting in a corner somewhere rubbing their greedy little hands together anticipating us buying some huge Liara Expansion and that is why they are so quiet about the ME1 LI's.  Still, they have to make it good and worthwhile first.

[Nozybidaj]

morrie23 wrote...

Littledoom wrote...

So you think it's a good thing they kicked the existing fan base in the face to make it easy for the new players? Sounds rely stupid to me.

It is really stupid, also it puzzles me because they put content in the game for certain ME1 players (i.e. those who wanted to jump tali's and garrus' bones) that will mean little to new players.

Well to new players none of it meant anything anyway.  It was all new, just like the old Li's would have been new for them.

[jbauck]

CastroKathy wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
The devs spoke so much about emotional engagement prior to the release. If indeed this was supposed to have been the difficult 2nd act in a three act romance, why not take advantage and have the characters really get mad at each other? It would have been the place to show that even Shepard has his/her limits, and that a brush off from someone s/he loves and has been waiting to see ever since s/he woke up in that overrun Cerberus base will not be swallowed meekly. It would have been THE place for a crossroads decision, to continue the romance or to not continue. None of this infantile "lolz we are tracking the cheeterz" from Bioware.

This. They utterly failed at storytelling 101. I just finished my second play through and I was kind of depressed watching poor old Shepard knock around the Normandy alone and loveless…
I played through ME1 around 6 times, I don’t even want to do it a third time with ME2. I’m just not emotionally engaged with the story like I was two years ago.

Well, I >am< going to replay ME2.  Probably a few more times.  But, to put that in perspective: I played KoTOR II 8 times.  Yes, 8.  Seriously.  Literally.  Why would anyone do that?  First, it was already paid for.  Second, I thought the actual GAMEPLAY was better than KoTOR I.

Third and most important, though - I played that freakin' game over and over again in the Vain Hope It Would Suddenly Make Sense.  It was like this terrible obsession - did I miss something?  Am I just dumb?  Does this actually make sense to other people?  What the heck am I doing, and why am I doing it?  Shouldn't there be more quests here?  That game was emotionally engaging for me for all the wrong reasons.  "WTF!?!?  Did they even FINISH this game???" is, technically, an "emotionally engaging" experience.

Now, ME2 is, by no means, THAT bad.  No game ever has been THAT bad.

The ME1 LI ports, though, as-is in-game without-DLC-yet, really are That Bad, though.  They don't make sense.  They feel like they weren't finished and/or thought out.  They're so bad they pull me out of the game and make me think "WTF!?!?".

I was totally prepared for a 2nd-act romance cameo appearance by the ME1 LIs.  A fight.  Some angst.  Forced separation of some kind.  Maybe even "so-and-so has moved on while you were dead - it HAS been 2 years, afterall - will these two crazy kids ever get back together?"  Cue Sad Music - Romance Cliffhanger.  Whatever - I knew ME2 wasn't going to be a "happy place" for the ME1 LI/Shep ... I was spoiled for that, I was prepared for that, I had no problem with it - but it just cannot be said enough that there is No Mention of Liara as a LI.  Did I miss something?  Am I just dumb?  Does this actually make sense to other people?  What the heck am I doing, and why am I doing it?  Shouldn't there be more quests here?

What makes an RPG emotionally engaging is not an awesome main character, or a great villain, or an intricate setting/backdrop - it's the relationships the main character builds with the team.  ME2 has some good "team" characters.  But the relationship I'm building with them is ... loyalty?  I could get loyalty from any Alliance Soldier in the Galaxy, without the side-quest.  The only characters in ME2 that I feel like Shep is >friends< with are Mordin and Tali.  Eh - I'll tack on Dr. Chakwas and Joker, to be generous.

To this day, if an actually >finished< KoTOR II were re-released with a "Sorry About That - Our Bad", I'd buy the darn thing.  If an actual 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance is released as DLC for ME2, I'll buy that.  But, as-is, with-no-DLC, the "emotionally engaging" aspect of ME2 is just ... a disappointment.

I'm going to go do Garrus' and Tali's loyalty quests now, and try really hard not to think about the idea that the whole thing with Saren and Sovereign wasn't enough to inspire a loyalty that lasts longer than two years.

[Nozybidaj]

jbauck wrote...
What makes an RPG emotionally engaging is not an awesome main character, or a great villain, or an intricate setting/backdrop - it's the relationships the main character builds with the team.  ME2 has some good "team" characters.  But the relationship I'm building with them is ... loyalty?  I could get loyalty from any Alliance Soldier in the Galaxy, without the side-quest.  The only characters in ME2 that I feel like Shep is >friends< with are Mordin and Tali.  Eh - I'll tack on Dr. Chakwas and Joker, to be generous.

To this day, if an actually >finished< KoTOR II were re-released with a "Sorry About That - Our Bad", I'd buy the darn thing.  If an actual 2nd-act-of-a-3-act-romance is released as DLC for ME2, I'll buy that.  But, as-is, with-no-DLC, the "emotionally engaging" aspect of ME2 is just ... a disappointment.

I'm going to go do Garrus' and Tali's loyalty quests now, and try really hard not to think about the idea that the whole thing with Saren and Sovereign wasn't enough to inspire a loyalty that lasts longer than two years.

This, so, so this.  The biggest hurdle to me actually being engaged and caring about these new characters is the complete separation I have from the game because of the way the ME1 LI's were handled.  I understand BW thought removing them would force us to engage these new characters but it has done just the opposite.  Instead it removed any attachment I had to the game, to what Shepard is supposed to be going through.  I can't speak to one of the new crew or do their loyalty mission without thinking, "this game would be so much better if it had Liara in it".

If I could have come into the game and did my Liara play through and been happy, I would have been much more willing to complete the game multiple times and been much more receptive to the new characters since the black shadow that the lack of emotional attachment cast over the whole game wouldn't have been there. 

I completed ME1 literally dozens of times, and though most of them I romanced Liara I had fun doing games with Ash and Kaidan, and even being single as well.  In ME2 once I completed my male and female Shep staying faithful to Liara games I feel like I am more or less done with it.

[Larask]

morrie23 wrote...


It is really stupid, also it puzzles me because they put content in the game for certain ME1 players (i.e. those who wanted to jump tali's and garrus' bones) that will mean little to new players.

This. I like Garrus and Tali, but their romances were pushed, especially Garrus'. BW put them in b/c there were a bunch of fans who wanted them. But then when it came to BW's original LI, which we all love, they give us nothing?! Especially with Liara. She has been fighting for two years, and all her major problems were created b/c she rescued Shepard, and now that Shepard is in front of her, she hardly gets out of her desk. Sometimes, I really don't know what's on the mind of BW writers...

[Mox Ruuga]

morrie23 wrote...

Littledoom wrote...

So you think it's a good thing they kicked the existing fan base in the face to make it easy for the new players? Sounds rely stupid to me.

It is really stupid, also it puzzles me because they put content in the game for certain ME1 players (i.e. those who wanted to jump tali's and garrus' bones) that will mean little to new players.

I have this sneaking suspicion that Bioware will continue to cater to certain other fan groups and character fandoms, in exclusion of the rest of us.

Liara's important ME3 role, for which she was supposedly kept out of the ME2 squad, might very well turn out to be just more information brokering from UnLiara. With slight optional legacy romance elements for those sad saps (I include myself as one) who still cling to her despite the Liara/Shepard clearly being the "wrong" choice in Bioware's opinion.

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

morrie23 wrote...

Littledoom wrote...

So you think it's a good thing they kicked the existing fan base in the face to make it easy for the new players? Sounds rely stupid to me.

It is really stupid, also it puzzles me because they put content in the game for certain ME1 players (i.e. those who wanted to jump tali's and garrus' bones) that will mean little to new players.

I have this sneaking suspicion that Bioware will continue to cater to certain other fan groups and character fandoms, in exclusion of the rest of us.

Liara's important ME3 role, for which she was supposedly kept out of the ME2 squad, might very well turn out to be just more information brokering from UnLiara. With slight optional legacy romance elements for those sad saps (I include myself as one) who still cling to her despite the Liara/Shepard clearly being the "wrong" choice in Bioware's opinion.

If that is ME3 I won't be buying it.  They desperately need to get Liara out of this mess ME2 has made of her entire character and situation.