1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Garrus]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

That mirrors my reaction almost exactly, just with a tad shock that I got Renegade points for agreeing to help her.  Apparently BioWare expects a Paragon to turn her down, even if she was your LI.....

Yes. I was shocked too, to get those Renegade Points. I thought you should have a way of "helping her as a condition to clear her path, but have a serious talk later". But apparently, no... they didn´t care. Liara became another provider of Paragon points, if you refuse to take sides on a gang war, or Renegade Points, if you help a "gang leader" to get the upper hand.

Is that what Liara became? Just another thug? I just wanted to walk away from her after all that meaningless BS.

[Sigilius]

I shudder to think that Liara would be forgotten. If what we fear most is true, then Bioware has forgotten their original, loyal fanbase in order to hang with the "cool crowd" of gamers, the new guys who never played the original, couldn't care less about Liara, and are already drooling over the possible hotties with which to cheat on their ME2 LI's. But such groups lose their support very quickly, and fame is fickle. Once they're gone, who will Bioware have but us? And I'm afraid they're not doing a terribly great job of treating us well. Just remember, Bioware, these gamers who don't care about the story-- don't care about you. They'll drop Mass Effect faster than a hot potato once Bioshock 2 or some other "cool" franchise really gets going. And all their friends who haven't bought ME2 yet will spend their money somewhere else. Why betray those of us who love your work truly?



Again, this is in the event that my optimism fails and all hopes of Liara DLC are crushed. Make our dreams come true, Bioware! End this nightmare.

[stormrain]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...


Seriously? If that had been allowed to happen, it would have sucked out all the immersion for me.

Yeah, I saw a post by the writer in question, IIRC Patrick Weekes, back on the old board. The original concept was to get Shepard happily working with Cerberus with less scruples even quicker than what ended in the game. I can't recall what he said about why that was changed, or more importantly, why such an abominably bad idea was thought up in the first place...

Ick! Thank goodness Mr. Weekes is on the team. ThisIsMadness91 approves +>9000.

Yeah, Weekes is pretty much the only writer that has me keeping faith in Bioware right now (Didn't he say on the old forums that he wrote Tali and Mordin for ME2?). Though that could be that he's the only non-lead writer I know of; Drew, for the most part, is gone and nobody seems very pleased with Mac right now...

That's just my 2 cents though. The fact that Patrick Weekes is utterly hilarious doesn't hurt either.

*slinks into the shadows and continues to lurk*

Modifié par Captain Uccisore, 15 février 2010 - 12:27 .

[crimzontearz]

lol doesn't this silence kinda remind you of the whole "ME1 dlc" faux pas?



it can't be good

[Nozybidaj]

crimzontearz wrote...

lol doesn't this silence kinda remind you of the whole "ME1 dlc" faux pas?

it can't be good

Well I wouldn't expect anything "official" till the comic is either done or very close to it.  Some subtle hints to at least prepare us would be nice though.  Especially if from reading this thread they think we will be pleased or not, if not I'll just take my ball and go home now.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Captain Uccisore wrote...

Yeah, Weekes is pretty much the only writer that has me keeping faith in Bioware right now (Didn't he say on the old forums that he wrote Tali and Mordin for ME2?). Though that could be that he's the only non-lead writer I know of; Drew, for the most part, is gone and nobody seems very pleased with Mac right now...

That's just my 2 cents though. The fact that Patrick Weekes is utterly hilarious doesn't hurt either.

*slinks into the shadows and continues to lurk*

He wrote Tali and Mordin? My love for the man has gone higher than I can calculate!

Also, this topic is now 50 pages strong! The devs certainly can't ignore us forever.

Modifié par ThisIsMadness91, 15 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[crimzontearz]

Nozybidaj wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

lol doesn't this silence kinda remind you of the whole "ME1 dlc" faux pas?

it can't be good

Well I wouldn't expect anything "official" till the comic is either done or very close to it.  Some subtle hints to at least prepare us would be nice though.  Especially if from reading this thread they think we will be pleased or not, if not I'll just take my ball and go home now.

have you forgotten the whole "you think someone objected?" line of thought?

would it REALLY matter what we say?



consider: 

when it was revealed ME1 LIs would have only minor roles the forums  exploded with angered fans and we were told to "trust bioware". Whether we did trust them or remained skeptical  the result was not a pleasant surprise but if anything a big letdown of even our most pessimistic hestimates. The result was the non-aknowmedgement of the Liara romance save for a single kiss...the result was "Un-Liara"....the result was Kaiden-Ash on Freedom's Progress. Why should we think THIS explosion of anger and resentment will do anything more than the previous one at this point?

[Nozybidaj]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Captain Uccisore wrote...

Yeah, Weekes is pretty much the only writer that has me keeping faith in Bioware right now (Didn't he say on the old forums that he wrote Tali and Mordin for ME2?). Though that could be that he's the only non-lead writer I know of; Drew, for the most part, is gone and nobody seems very pleased with Mac right now...

That's just my 2 cents though. The fact that Patrick Weekes is utterly hilarious doesn't hurt either.

*slinks into the shadows and continues to lurk*

He wrote Tali and Mordin? My love for the man has gone higher than I can calculate!

Also, this topic is now 50 pages strong! The devs certainly can't ignore us forever.

Agreed, Tali and Mordin were definitely the bright spots of the game.


This combined with the other Liara thread should at least be noticable by now.  We don't seem to gather all the psycho's like the Tali thread, but there is a lot more discussion in these threads rather than just random nonsense as well.  I'm okay with that.

[Nightwriter]

crimzontearz wrote...

when it was revealed ME1 LIs would have only minor roles the forums  exploded with angered fans and we were told to "trust bioware". Whether we did trust them or remained skeptical  the result was not a pleasant surprise but if anything a big letdown of even our most pessimistic hestimates. The result was the non-aknowmedgement of the Liara romance save for a single kiss...the result was "Un-Liara"....the result was Kaiden-Ash on Freedom's Progress. Why should we think THIS explosion of anger and resentment will do anything more than the previous one at this point?

The solution, of course, is to create an even BIGGER explosion of anger and resentment than before!

[crimzontearz]

Nightwriter wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

when it was revealed ME1 LIs would have only minor roles the forums  exploded with angered fans and we were told to "trust bioware". Whether we did trust them or remained skeptical  the result was not a pleasant surprise but if anything a big letdown of even our most pessimistic hestimates. The result was the non-aknowmedgement of the Liara romance save for a single kiss...the result was "Un-Liara"....the result was Kaiden-Ash on Freedom's Progress. Why should we think THIS explosion of anger and resentment will do anything more than the previous one at this point?

The solution, of course, is to create an even BIGGER explosion of anger and resentment than before!

the first one was preeeeeetty big....just as maxx and satanic

[Nozybidaj]

crimzontearz wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

lol doesn't this silence kinda remind you of the whole "ME1 dlc" faux pas?

it can't be good

Well I wouldn't expect anything "official" till the comic is either done or very close to it.  Some subtle hints to at least prepare us would be nice though.  Especially if from reading this thread they think we will be pleased or not, if not I'll just take my ball and go home now.

have you forgotten the whole "you think someone objected?" line of thought?

would it REALLY matter what we say?



consider: 

when it was revealed ME1 LIs would have only minor roles the forums  exploded with angered fans and we were told to "trust bioware". Whether we did trust them or remained skeptical  the result was not a pleasant surprise but if anything a big letdown of even our most pessimistic hestimates. The result was the non-aknowmedgement of the Liara romance save for a single kiss...the result was "Un-Liara"....the result was Kaiden-Ash on Freedom's Progress. Why should we think THIS explosion of anger and resentment will do anything more than the previous one at this point?

We have no reason to think it will, but what else can we do? 

The only other recourse we have is to take our money elsewhere, and while yes, BW lost my free pass by asking us to trust them before ME2, I am still willing to wait and see what we get for a Liara expansion. 

If it is good I can forgive enough to at least remain interested till ME3.  If it is not or they do something distasteful to her in the comic (like a Feron romance or the like) then I'll just leave.  There isn't any other course of action we can take.

While one person not buying a DLC or a game is a drop in the ocean to BW, it will have a more impactful message to them than any thousands of posts I can make on a forum.

[Nozybidaj]

crimzontearz wrote...

the first one was preeeeeetty big....just as maxx and satanic

I assume by that point it was just way too late to change anything.  Yes they made a mistake, yes they blew a great oppurtunity with the sequel, but by that time what could they do?  Stop development and start over (maybe they should have but to much money would already have been spent)?

At least by voicing our disappointment now, we just might have a chance (however slim it is) to impact future development.

[Nightwriter]

crimzontearz wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

when it was revealed ME1 LIs would have only minor roles the forums  exploded with angered fans and we were told to "trust bioware". Whether we did trust them or remained skeptical  the result was not a pleasant surprise but if anything a big letdown of even our most pessimistic hestimates. The result was the non-aknowmedgement of the Liara romance save for a single kiss...the result was "Un-Liara"....the result was Kaiden-Ash on Freedom's Progress. Why should we think THIS explosion of anger and resentment will do anything more than the previous one at this point?

The solution, of course, is to create an even BIGGER explosion of anger and resentment than before!

the first one was preeeeeetty big....just as maxx and satanic

Big? Oh, I have faith in you ME1 LI supporters, you can do bigger! No Bioware property even got TP'd, and not a single dev cried.

[crimzontearz]

Nozybidaj wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

the first one was preeeeeetty big....just as maxx and satanic

I assume by that point it was just way too late to change anything.  Yes they made a mistake, yes they blew a great oppurtunity with the sequel, but by that time what could they do?  Stop development and start over (maybe they should have but to much money would already have been spent)?

At least by voicing our disappointment now, we just might have a chance (however slim it is) to impact future development.

uhm.....stop developement no......"adding" a couple of things like even a freaking e-mail similar to the one left by the other ME1 LIs? yeah, yeah I think that was absolutely doable....

also

look at what they are doing to DAO and the "reasoning" behind it....does it seem to you that they are taking, in this matter, the Fans' feedback at heart?

[Sharn01]

Nozybidaj wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

the first one was preeeeeetty big....just as maxx and satanic

I assume by that point it was just way too late to change anything.  Yes they made a mistake, yes they blew a great oppurtunity with the sequel, but by that time what could they do?  Stop development and start over (maybe they should have but to much money would already have been spent)?

At least by voicing our disappointment now, we just might have a chance (however slim it is) to impact future development.

I do not see how three of four additional lines of dialog would be that big of a project no matter how close to the end of the developement stage the game was, I am kind of surprised the voice acter's do not recognize a lack of certain lines when called in and mention something.

[JPfanner]

Darth Suetam wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

That mirrors my reaction almost exactly, just with a tad shock that I got Renegade points for agreeing to help her.  Apparently BioWare expects a Paragon to turn her down, even if she was your LI.....

Yes. I was shocked too, to get those Renegade Points. I thought you should have a way of "helping her as a condition to clear her path, but have a serious talk later". But apparently, no... they didn´t care. Liara became another provider of Paragon points, if you refuse to take sides on a gang war, or Renegade Points, if you help a "gang leader" to get the upper hand.

Is that what Liara became? Just another thug? I just wanted to walk away from her after all that meaningless BS.

I think you get Paragon points for the Observer one don't you?  It is kind of odd that you'd get Renegade points for the hacking.  The Renegade points didn't bother me really.  It's not as if every flavor of Shepard isn't a freaking compulsive hacker and kleptomaniac anyway.  Helping out your LI/the person that risked everything to recover your carcass does seem like it'd be a Paragon action though since it is an issue of trust.  Let alone hacking terminals that you would have hacked anyway if they had been clickable without the mission.

I always finish with a full Paragon bar, and have never played Renegade.  I simply can't be a jerk like that even in a game.  Same with trying to playing MaleShep, it always feels all weird and is more like playing NotFemShep.  But I'll take Renegade actions when I feel they are the more appropriate path.  Like there was no way prison was good enough for Jacob's father after what he did.  Or even on Garrus's loyalty mission, he practically begged me to just help him resolve the betrayal in the way he wanted and going against that to chat up the traitor seemed like another betrayal.  And that's just what I felt my Shepard would do, I'm certainly not dictating or criticizing what others felt was appropriate.

Like other people have said though, it'd be nice if you could come back and tell her about the Collector/Prothean connection.  Or even ask Legion who the Shadow Broker was, I mean if the Geth monitor all organic transmissions they'd certainly be in a position to have some idea on that. 

It just gets so frustrating having the expectation of Liara being a dynamic character when all your interactions with her are so static.  And especially so if she's your LI because nothing changes and you're left with reloading saved games to play "guess the hidden intentions on computer models with poor camera angles" during her kiss.

[Nozybidaj]

crimzontearz wrote...

uhm.....stop developement no......"adding" a couple of things like even a freaking e-mail similar to the one left by the other ME1 LIs? yeah, yeah I think that was absolutely doable....

Agreed.

look at what they are doing to DAO and the "reasoning" behind it....does it seem to you that they are taking, in this matter, the Fans' feedback at heart?

No, I don't.  I would have liked to have thought that the DA:O team would have seen from the reactions of ME fans how much we love these characters and planned appropriately for their own expansion.  Such is not the case.  At least the DA team was completely upfront about it and said "no active continuing romances in the expansion" where as the ME team hid behind comments like "just look at it as a troubled second chapter of your three part romance" and "you can continue your ME1 romance" when what they really meant was "you can choose not to cheat on your ME1 romance".

I do applaude the DA team for at least being upfront about it.

[JamieCOTC]

I wasn't surprised at the renegade points w/ the initial hacking. It is a questionable action at best and I believe the paragon response is "I won't do it." Under different circumstances, my paragon femShep would have said no, but she was, at the time, "emotionally compromised" to quote another franchise.

[Nozybidaj]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I wasn't surprised at the renegade points w/ the initial hacking. It is a questionable action at best and I believe the paragon response is "I won't do it." Under different circumstances, my paragon femShep would have said no, but she was, at the time, "emotionally compromised" to quote another franchise.

So leaving our LI alone and in the dark without helping her with a menial task is Paragon?

I spend all my time shooting mercs and looting the safes of dead people and hacking secure terminals to steal peoples money, but helping my love is renegade?

[yeldarbnotned]

Liara was a good hearted one hundred year old kid who seemed right in league fighting beside my paragon Shepard in Mass Effect. Even, if she wasn't Shepard's love interest, she was still fascinated with the Commander. Thus, she recovers Shepard's remains. Now, Liara is totally obsessed and bent on revenge against the shadow broker, lacking any noticeable ethics at all. I have not read the comics, but obviously something changed her character for the worse. After being totally committed to Shepard, it just seemed odd that she wouldn't join the Commander's cause. Perhaps, Liara knows something we don't. Perhaps stopping the shadow broker is as important as stopping the reapers.



Hopefully, she will be back on my team in Mass Effect 3.

[Driveninhifi]

Well, aside from the fact that Ash/Kaidan's reasons for not coming with Shepard in ME2 are terribly contrived I thought they were handled well in terms of the romance. They had no idea Shep would come back to life and had come to terms with his/her death. To have their love suddenly reappear alive is a really freaking hard thing to deal with. It makes sense they wouldn't immediately jump back into Shep's arms.

Now, none of this applies to Liara since she clearly never came to terms with Shepard's death and also knows/hopes Shepard will come back to her. I thought she was boring and pretty one-dimensional in ME1, though she was appealing in an earnest way. I'm glad they tried to make her more interesting and I like the direction, I just wish they had done it much better than they did.
They really missed a huge opportunity for some awesome development and exploration of her character. The exploration of what's going on in her head when Shepard comes back could have been extremely compelling. The idea that she is terrified Shepard will hate her is a great one. And for Shepard to say "No, you did the right thing," has got to be an incredibly cathartic moment for the character. It's really disappointing they didn't let you explore this, it could have added a ton of depth to her.
I really think they wanted to push the player towards the new characters and that's fine, but it needed to be more subtle, or they needed to make it really obvious YOU ARE CHEATING YOU DIRTY CHEATER. I think it works for Ash/Kaidan, but not for Liara at all. It's absolutely inconceivable their relationship wouldn't come up - her telling Shepard "I couldn't let you go" is about the most natural segue you could imagine. Not allowing the player to ask her about the two of them is completely ridiculous.

Also renegade points for hacking is weird. You know the Shadow Broker is not a nice guy, it's not like you are stealing for orphans. You are constantly hacking everything in sight for those sweet, sweet credits in general (without knowing who/what owns the stuff). It's not like she told you to personally kill like 10 people for no reason. She's very up front about everything as well.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 15 février 2010 - 02:59 .

[JPfanner]

During Mordin's recruitment I like that you can use Paragon persuasion to convince those looters to stop looting...even though you've been hacking, bypassing, and looting compulsively all the way through yourself. I guess being all noble is more complicated than you'd expect.

[Driveninhifi]

yeldarbnotned wrote...

Liara was a good hearted one hundred year old kid who seemed right in league fighting beside my paragon Shepard in Mass Effect. Even, if she wasn't Shepard's love interest, she was still fascinated with the Commander. Thus, she recovers Shepard's remains. Now, Liara is totally obsessed and bent on revenge against the shadow broker, lacking any noticeable ethics at all. I have not read the comics, but obviously something changed her character for the worse. After being totally committed to Shepard, it just seemed odd that she wouldn't join the Commander's cause. Perhaps, Liara knows something we don't. Perhaps stopping the shadow broker is as important as stopping the reapers.

Hopefully, she will be back on my team in Mass Effect 3.

Well, she's obviously feeling very guilty. There are easy explanations to her behavior, we just aren't given them in game. What makes the most sense is her feeling like she needs to stop the SB for either the good of the galaxy (though we aren't given indications toward this) or for her own redemption. Guilt would be a powerful motivator for her character, and her believing stopping the SB is the only way for her to "make things right" makes a lot of sense.
Also, remember that during the first part of the conversation with her Liara is still terrified of what Shepard will think if he/she finds out about what she did with the body (in addition to being afraid of being watched). So she's kind of wary of saying too much.

Consider this:
She gets Feron killed/captured during the recovery of the body. She gives the body to cerberus, then she feels guilty about that because she thinks it was selfish of her. In between all this, the Shadow Broker is probably attempting to kill her constantly. I would think the situation that makes the most sense for her character is to decide she's going to fight back and survive - then her guilt over Shepard and Feron can play into that.

There are still issues with this, stuff I just mentioned in a post above. But it also explains why she feels she cannot come. She really wants to, but I don't think she'd be able to forgive herself if she let the shadow broker go, since that would essentially be denying the sacrifice Feron made (and make her feel like she wasted 2 years). She could feel the last time she was selfish (getting the body) things ended badly; Feron killed and Shepard in Cerberus' hands. This should have been made clear in game and I think the player should have been told that essentially Feron sacrificed himself not only for Liara, but for Shepard as well. Also she really should have asked Shepard not to die again, since that would totally break her.

[crimzontearz]

you know I got in the middle of writing a several paragraphs post.......but ultimately what is the sense of it? it is really gonna make no real difference

I just hope at this point that they understand their error and they  do not hold it against us if we chose another LI

sort of a way of saying

" you know guys we understand we pissed a lot of you off handling the Liara/Ash/Kaiden the way we did so if you picked a different LI in ME2 we will let you bow out of the relationship in a friendly manner in ME3 to make it up to you"

just saying that would be a nice way of handling it

Modifié par crimzontearz, 15 février 2010 - 03:35 .

[Arturia Pendragon]

yeldarbnotned wrote...

I have not read the comics, but obviously something changed her character for the worse.

You're not missing much. John Jackson Miller (the script writer for the comic book) is a veteran Star Wars writer and handles Liara as if she is a badass Jedi in that universe and not the Liara T'Soni of the Mass Effect universe. It takes him a whole 4 pages to get her into combat and another 6 after that for yet another contrived combat scene. Basically, she's presented out of character for 75-90% of the first two issues.