1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Nimander]

I think it's important to not let nostalgia color things, either.



I see a lot of people insisting that the ME1 characters were stellar, and ME2 characters sucked. This ... isn't the case. You keep saying this, and you will lose any sort of rational support you might have. This is just backlashing.



ME2 characters were interesting to me. So were ME1. My issue with Liara is she: 1) Acts in a manner lacking verisimilitude with her actions in ME1. 2) Is totally cold to the character regardless of romance when interacting with her, for a lot less reason. 3) Basically is lacking of any sort of -reason- for these changes.



It's certainly true I'm disappointed with how she's portrayed in ME1. But it's really easy to take a poor portrayal and turn it into a nostalgic 'the new stuff sucks!' rant. Let's not turn into the No Mutants Allowed forums, which are pretty much a laughingstock. The issue is the new stuff -didn't- suck, and the stuff with the old LI (moreso with Liara than the others, but all of them) /did/.

[Sigilius]

Liara was simply awkward and uncertain around Shepard, but the adoration was present. In fact, her clumsy come-ons are rather endearing, and they serve to cement the relationship. I'll never forget when she says, "That is why I have never.... I mean, why we are so careful about choosing partners." She's a different breed of cute, and most of us love her for it.

Which is why we all shudder at what's been done to the character. But I am among the few who has faith in Bioware to reveal their master plan (Or at least ammend their mistakes) before ME3. We don't want to walk into the next game (I know about a dozen people who won't even buy it) without first having cleared up the romance. We want to start on a positive note, where we can build from there, and have a promise from Bioware that we'll explore previously unknown territories with our romances. We don't want another initial romance, no "resetting" of them, no excuses. We want to evolve, to expand, to grow. We want our LI's to become an integral part of Shepard's life, at least by our choice. Hasn't their relationship matured enough?

Like I said before, a devoted girlfriend/wife-type figure (I am aware asari don't marry, but one can wish, right?) wouldn't cramp Shepard's style. It's not out of character. If anything, shamelessly roaming between LI's, looking for cheap thrills from the most promising squadmate is out of character for Shepard, although sadly this is what most casual players do, not concerned with the story or subplot. ... Mrs. Liara Shepard? How does that strike you?

Modifié par Sigilius, 15 février 2010 - 05:32 .

[Sharn01]

Nimander wrote...

I think it's important to not let nostalgia color things, either.

I see a lot of people insisting that the ME1 characters were stellar, and ME2 characters sucked. This ... isn't the case. You keep saying this, and you will lose any sort of rational support you might have. This is just backlashing.

ME2 characters were interesting to me. So were ME1. My issue with Liara is she: 1) Acts in a manner lacking verisimilitude with her actions in ME1. 2) Is totally cold to the character regardless of romance when interacting with her, for a lot less reason. 3) Basically is lacking of any sort of -reason- for these changes.

It's certainly true I'm disappointed with how she's portrayed in ME1. But it's really easy to take a poor portrayal and turn it into a nostalgic 'the new stuff sucks!' rant. Let's not turn into the No Mutants Allowed forums, which are pretty much a laughingstock. The issue is the new stuff -didn't- suck, and the stuff with the old LI (moreso with Liara than the others, but all of them) /did/.

She acts in a manner lacking the appearance of truth?  I am not sure what you mean.  I felt there was more to the character's in ME1 personally, what a lot of people do not understand was to get a full view of the ME1 character's you had to take them with you on mission's, as a good portion of their dialog was not on the Normandy. 

In ME2 it does not matter for the most part who you take with you on mission's, and their dialog on the Normandy does not occur after event's, but simply after so many mission's take place, but other then that is no more involved then the ME1 dialog, they just presented it in a different format, the character's moving around while talking, or leaning on something, etc.

You  come in here saying we should not bash ME2 character's, which if you have read most's of the posts in this thread there is very little of, yet then spend the next two paragraph's bashing the ME1 character's.

[Mox Ruuga]

I wasn't aware people were really bashing the ME2 characters here? Sure, there have been a few bitter posts here and there, but most of the ire is solidly reserved for the poor writing that wrecked Liara, Shepard-in-love-with-Liara, and to a lesser extent, Kaidan and Ashley.

Even if they decide to make things right in a DLC or ME3, they still have to account for the weird cold and uncaring moments between Shepard and Liara in ME2. Why do they act the way they do? I don't buy the "bugged office" theory, or that Liara is afraid of warming up to Shepard again. Why would Shepard care about that? Why doesn't s/he get to pressure Liara to talk about "them"?

As it is portrayed in ME2, Shepard lost interest in Liara after their moment together before Ilos. After all, it's not been two years for him/her, more like several weeks at best. Liara, OTOH, became an obsessive, violent wreck, who tranferred her obsessions from rescuing Shepard into waging a private vendetta against another underworld figure.

[Driveninhifi]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

yeldarbnotned wrote...

I have not read the comics, but obviously something changed her character for the worse.

You're not missing much. John Jackson Miller (the script writer for the comic book) is a veteran Star Wars writer and handles Liara as if she is a badass Jedi in that universe and not the Liara T'Soni of the Mass Effect universe. It takes him a whole 4 pages to get her into combat and another 6 after that for yet another contrived combat scene. Basically, she's presented out of character for 75-90% of the first two issues.

The comics are very, very uneven. She's in character at times, being naive about stuff. She's way, way too aggressive though. 75%-90% is waay overstating it though.
She's not a doormat - she's been killing dudes with Shepard for a long time, so that's not really out of character. You are CONSTANTLY fighting in ME1 and she's one of the more powerful characters - she can handle herself. What is ridiculously out of character is when she kills the Batarian in #2 and quips about "that's why it's called afterlife!" That's absolutely terrible writing - it's in character for her to defend herself (lethally, if need be), but not at all in character to kill in cold blood. It's completely unbelievable. She basically should not be the aggressor ever. I do think her biotic punching Feron is toeing the line, but I bought it in that situation.
Also, it's a comic book and so they are trying to make her kind of the tough action hero type of chick to carry the action. Unfortunately that doesn't really fit her character - she's more thoughtful and deliberate in ME1, though I buy her being totally determined to get to Shepard. They also have the issue of the comic not being able to determine whether she's Shepard's love or not, which should really have a large impact on her character. Trying to write it for both weakens it.
Now, if they have her fall in love with Feron during the comic I'll roll my eyes endlessly, though I personally don't think they will happen. There's really no way for it to make any sense anyway.

[Driveninhifi]

Sharn01 wrote...

She acts in a manner lacking the appearance of truth?  I am not sure what you mean.  I felt there was more to the character's in ME1 personally, what a lot of people do not understand was to get a full view of the ME1 character's you had to take them with you on mission's, as a good portion of their dialog was not on the Normandy. 

In ME2 it does not matter for the most part who you take with you on mission's, and their dialog on the Normandy does not occur after event's, but simply after so many mission's take place, but other then that is no more involved then the ME1 dialog, they just presented it in a different format, the character's moving around while talking, or leaning on something, etc.

You  come in here saying we should not bash ME2 character's, which if you have read most's of the posts in this thread there is very little of, yet then spend the next two paragraph's bashing the ME1 character's.

Actually, I agree with Nimlander. Most of the characters in ME1 are pretty boring. Really, only Garrus and Wrex are interesting. Ashley is somewhat interesting since you can influence her thoughts on aliens. Kaiden's kind of boring. Tali is a walking Codex entry.
Liara is a codex-entry mixed with an adoring nerdbait romance. I thought she wasn't a particularly compelling character in ME1; there really isn't much to her aside from "YOU ARE SO AWESOME SHEPARD." (Though I do think her earnestness was appealing.) They tried to make her more interesting in part 2, but it seems like they tried a little too much hand-waving in the transformation. I think it's a good thing they took her where they did, but they also have to reap what they've sown - there needed to be a lot more development to really turn the doormat-adoring Liara in ME1 into what she's presented as in ME2.
The frustrating thing is that they've set up a really interesting internal conflict within Liara and then they really don't go into it. It's like they started getting ambitious but then backed off - I don't really understand why since it could have been extremely compelling. Perhaps they will explore it in the future, but it feels really unnatural for Shepard not to talk to her about it in ME2, especially if the two were lovers.

Also the dialogue in mission in ME1 is dependent on where they are in your party. The first squadmate will give you paragon advice and the other will give you renegade advice. This leads to hilarity as characters will tell you to do things that don't make sense, such as Wrex being the total voice of reason and Liara telling you to exterminate the Rachni.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 15 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[Sharn01]

I was not referring so much to the paragon/renegade advice as to the random interjection's and party banter.

[scxenophobe]

Ahhh, just imagine if all she wanted to do was gun down the drell, day would be made.

[Tamcia]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

yeldarbnotned wrote...

I have not read the comics, but obviously something changed her character for the worse.

You're not missing much. John Jackson Miller (the script writer for the comic book) is a veteran Star Wars writer and handles Liara as if she is a badass Jedi in that universe and not the Liara T'Soni of the Mass Effect universe. It takes him a whole 4 pages to get her into combat and another 6 after that for yet another contrived combat scene. Basically, she's presented out of character for 75-90% of the first two issues.

The comics are very, very uneven. She's in character at times, being naive about stuff. She's way, way too aggressive though. 75%-90% is waay overstating it though.
She's not a doormat - she's been killing dudes with Shepard for a long time, so that's not really out of character. You are CONSTANTLY fighting in ME1 and she's one of the more powerful characters - she can handle herself. What is ridiculously out of character is when she kills the Batarian in #2 and quips about "that's why it's called afterlife!" That's absolutely terrible writing - it's in character for her to defend herself (lethally, if need be), but not at all in character to kill in cold blood. It's completely unbelievable. She basically should not be the aggressor ever. I do think her biotic punching Feron is toeing the line, but I bought it in that situation.
Also, it's a comic book and so they are trying to make her kind of the tough action hero type of chick to carry the action. Unfortunately that doesn't really fit her character - she's more thoughtful and deliberate in ME1, though I buy her being totally determined to get to Shepard. They also have the issue of the comic not being able to determine whether she's Shepard's love or not, which should really have a large impact on her character. Trying to write it for both weakens it.
Now, if they have her fall in love with Feron during the comic I'll roll my eyes endlessly, though I personally don't think they will happen. There's really no way for it to make any sense anyway.

I wonder if comics scripts are written by completely different people.

My biggest fear is that they actually want to mess up Liara so that in ME3 she is not a squad mate or LI, but turns out to be cold blooded enemy... That would be so wrong.

I get that they want to create a transition between ME1 and ME2, also expand the "universe". I mean they wish to create a universe, like Star Wars for example - with stories not onyl about the key characters from the movies, but with behind the scenes stuff. Its great, but not the expense of Liara - dam I liked her character in ME1 and if they wanted to show her "mature" or grow up, they went overboard with that. Was pretty shcoked when I met her on Illum - shes not the Liara I knew. She was my LI, so was expecting some kind of reactions, but it feels it was in the line with otehr decisions made in ME1 - they got a news announcement, I got a kiss instead of a hug. I guess Bioware thinks that LI was not more important then a random mission.

 Honestly I'm very disappointed - my favorite team back in ME1 was Liara+Tali. I loved those characters and like many tohers I grew kind attached to them, only to be taken apart later. Sometimes I think Bioware is a cruel kid that enjoys messing with people.

[Nimander]

Sharn01 wrote...
She acts in a manner lacking the appearance of truth?  I am not sure what you mean.  I felt there was more to the character's in ME1 personally, what a lot of people do not understand was to get a full view of the ME1 character's you had to take them with you on mission's, as a good portion of their dialog was not on the Normandy.

In ME2 it does not matter for the most part who you take with you on mission's, and their dialog on the Normandy does not occur after event's, but simply after so many mission's take place, but other then that is no more involved then the ME1 dialog, they just presented it in a different format, the character's moving around while talking, or leaning on something, etc.

True, but this is different.  Not superior.  The issue with me is people seem to be backlashing insisting that the ME1 character development was so uber and great, when it ... really wasn't.  I love the ME1 characters, especially Liara, Tali, and Wrex.  But they aren't incredibly more detailed than the ME2 ones.  They were handled differently.  They had more banter outside missions, but there wasn't anything like say, Miranda's mission or Grunt's in ME1.  So in that way the ME2 characters were handled better.

Sharn01 wrote...
You  come in here saying we should not bash ME2 character's, which if you have read most's of the posts in this thread there is very little of, yet then spend the next two paragraph's bashing the ME1 character's.

I've seen it every few pages.  Someone will pop in with how awesome ME1 characters are, and how ME2 characters are trash.  Which ... really just makes what they suspect.  If they want something done, not coming off as ranting and irrational is a good thing.

As for bashing ME1 characters?  I wasn't, except in relation to ME2.  Which is the whole /point/ of my peeve with ME2.  Liara wasn't handled well in ME2, nor was Ashley and Kaidan.  All I'm saying is that ME1 characterization wasn't something to raise on a pedestal.  The characters are certainly compelling, but in a lot of ways it's in spite of how it's handled in the story.  I mean in ME1 we had a bit of chat here or there and a 5-minute mission with a bit of detail (Garrus) to just 'I want my armor/data on the Geth, kill these things!' (Wrex/Tali).  Characterization in general in ME2 is better handled, even if there's less out of combat stuff.  (Though really, in ME1 there really wasn't that much stuff off-Normandy.  Just a tiny bit.)

I just wish they'd done the same to the LI's instead of relegating them to the side (Ashley, Kaidan) or totally rewriting the character with little understanding of why -- and not giving the character a means to get more than a smattering of information (Liara).

It's so frustrating -because- characters were given some cool stuff in ME2 other than really shoddy missions, at least to me.  The LIs, especially Liara, don't feel like they were put to the side a bit.  They felt actually /tacked on/.

And that annoys me.  A hell of a lot.

Modifié par Nimander, 15 février 2010 - 10:05 .

[Merwanor]

ME2 is basically the best game i have ever played, but it is not perfect and the biggest disappointment was Liara. I was looking forward to meeting here the whole time and when i did i just could not believe how cold and awkward the whole meeting was... She was so cold and for me the whole relationship thing just fell apart.

After that meeting i was just, ok forget her, now i can get it on with Tali with no regrets. To me Tali is also a much more interesting character, even though the love scene with here was also incredibly anti climatic, i at least felt some connection to the character. I rely hope they give us a DLC or something more with Liara, because as of now she is the weakest link in ME2.

[Sharn01]

Nimander

I see your point and agree with much but not all of what you said.

ME1 was based more on the main story, while ME2 was focused mainly on the character's, unfortunately I think it was at the expense of the main story when they should have paid attention to both.

I do not know though, I always liked Tali and Garrus, but I never got attached to any new character's other then Mordin, though I agree that every one's loyalty mission was well done, whether you like the character or not that is undeniable.

I think a lot of that stem's from the direction the story took, I think Cerberus would have made a better main villian then the group you are working for, I am probably more familiar with their history then most player's though.

As to everything you said about how the ME1 character's where treated in ME2, I agree completely and have said pretty much every thing you have at one point or another in this thread, as have many other's.

Modifié par Sharn01, 15 février 2010 - 10:33 .

[bjdbwea]

I could bash the ME 2 characters, and most of them deserve it, but this is not really the thread for that. Let's just say that I feel the ME 1 characters were developed and portrayed better and more believable, and that their integration into the story was way ahead of that in ME 2, even if we consider the loyalty quests and the final mission. But that's just one opinion, and others are just as valid. What we certainly all can agree on is that the role of the ME 1 LIs in ME 2 is an insult to all fans of the first part.

[Eddie-Hawke]

I first thought the course of finding Shepard's body was the key to this character change. It's really the only current lead we have to cling to, after all.  That being said, however, as I read Redemption I don't really think of Liara, apart from minute points where aspects of her flash in between the OOCness.

What's frustrating is that if the real point of ME2 was to get characters in and flesh them out, they failed.  Storyline wise, ME2 just felt like a bridge between the first and inevitable third part of this story.  In the meantime, you get a bunch of new characters, but I was so distracted trying to figure out what happened to the first lot that I initially overlooked a lot of new ones.  I have what some would call 'attachment issues' when it comes to characters. When they're promised important roles then pretty much cast aside, I can't give the new ones the same attention because a lot of them just feel like replacements and random extras.

I honestly don't think they just went "Oh whoops we forgot about <insert name here>, lets just throw them in somewhere and cross our fingers." Instead, I like to believe it was an attempt at building suspense for the third part of the story.  It was just a failed attempt. A really bad failed attempt.  But it's such failure that I have to believe something is going to come as an attempt at compensation.

Or maybe that's just hope.

[CastroKathy]

Eddie-Hawke wrote...

...

I honestly don't think they just went "Oh whoops we forgot about , lets just throw them in somewhere and cross our fingers." Instead, I like to believe it was an attempt at building suspense for the third part of the story.  It was just a failed attempt. A really bad failed attempt.  But it's such failure that I have to believe something is going to come as an attempt at compensation.

Or maybe that's just hope.

Here's to the hopey changey thing!

[Sigilius]

Their attempts to tempt you off the path of faithfulness were sloppy, I can't deny that. They came off more as blunt statements of, "Your LI has moved on. Get a new one if you ever want to experience love again," rather than, "This is a test of your loyalty. Will you stay faithful?" Therefore, most of the cheaters are really players who simply felt hurt by their old LIs, and decided to move on themselves. Of course, Bioware really means that they're cheaters, and is high-fiving each other at their ability to corrupt players when really the player felt they had no alternative. That's not good writing, Bioware, that's just strong-arming the player into a course of action that you want! If you wanted to really test us, give us something that says, "My LI still loves me, but we can't be together for a while. Should I stay faithful?" rather than, "My LI is probably never coming back. Too bad. Might as well move on too." It's obvious to the player that the LI has moved on, but the writers have already scripted it as cheating, in their desperate attempt to convince players to cheat.



Ultimately, rather than convince players to become unfaithful, they trick them into it. That won't fly with me, Bioware, and I'm sure it won't fly with the others.



(Allow me to footnote this by saying that my Shepard remained faithful to Liara.)

[Nozybidaj]

Sigilius wrote...

Their attempts to tempt you off the path of faithfulness were sloppy, I can't deny that. They came off more as blunt statements of, "Your LI has moved on. Get a new one if you ever want to experience love again," rather than, "This is a test of your loyalty. Will you stay faithful?" Therefore, most of the cheaters are really players who simply felt hurt by their old LIs, and decided to move on themselves. Of course, Bioware really means that they're cheaters, and is high-fiving each other at their ability to corrupt players when really the player felt they had no alternative. That's not good writing, Bioware, that's just strong-arming the player into a course of action that you want! If you wanted to really test us, give us something that says, "My LI still loves me, but we can't be together for a while. Should I stay faithful?" rather than, "My LI is probably never coming back. Too bad. Might as well move on too." It's obvious to the player that the LI has moved on, but the writers have already scripted it as cheating, in their desperate attempt to convince players to cheat.

Ultimately, rather than convince players to become unfaithful, they trick them into it. That won't fly with me, Bioware, and I'm sure it won't fly with the others.

(Allow me to footnote this by saying that my Shepard remained faithful to Liara.)

I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but this is a great post.  Wish the sigs were big enough to fit all that in.  Okay, now I'm going to try and drift into the shadows of lurking permanently.

[JPfanner]

Meh, another thing that tugged at my heartstrings while playing was that in two locations you overhear conversations about asari pairings where they emphasize how important valuing the time together is. The tuarian/asari couple in the Citadel shop and then the salarian father/asari daughter at Memories of Illium. Not to mention the importance Liara put on it in ME 1.



And if you didn't play ME 1 then those conversations wouldn't really hold any meaning besides some background color on those "blue chick aliens". But they're like a freaking knife in the back if you're all sad and confused about not being permitted to even bring up the relationship with Liara.

[crimzontearz]

Sigilius wrote...

Their attempts to tempt you off the path of faithfulness were sloppy, I can't deny that. They came off more as blunt statements of, "Your LI has moved on. Get a new one if you ever want to experience love again," rather than, "This is a test of your loyalty. Will you stay faithful?" Therefore, most of the cheaters are really players who simply felt hurt by their old LIs, and decided to move on themselves. Of course, Bioware really means that they're cheaters, and is high-fiving each other at their ability to corrupt players when really the player felt they had no alternative. That's not good writing, Bioware, that's just strong-arming the player into a course of action that you want! If you wanted to really test us, give us something that says, "My LI still loves me, but we can't be together for a while. Should I stay faithful?" rather than, "My LI is probably never coming back. Too bad. Might as well move on too." It's obvious to the player that the LI has moved on, but the writers have already scripted it as cheating, in their desperate attempt to convince players to cheat.

Ultimately, rather than convince players to become unfaithful, they trick them into it. That won't fly with me, Bioware, and I'm sure it won't fly with the others.

(Allow me to footnote this by saying that my Shepard remained faithful to Liara.)

I agree

liara's actions and attitude translate as "Shepard I know you need me, I know you love me BUT I am putting my own interests, vengence and my drell friend above you and above the fact that odds are stacked GREATLY against you...so yeah shepard, if you die out there against the collectors the last thing you will remember of your sweet liara is that she rejected you when you needed her most"

[Daeion]

Sphynx118 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Sphynx118 wrote...

Doesnt everyone get the "this is why im so cold because i couldnt let you go" lines? Even if you didnt romance her in me 1? Never found out since i couldnt resist not romancing her on any of my me 1 saves.
If everyone gets it then thats just bull**** from biowares writing staff

Yes, everyone gets the exact same dialouge from her in ME2.

Lol never expected such a thing from bioware -.- The ashley lovers atleast get a mail saying that she doesnt want to lose you again, All we get is a kiss? How hard would it be for bioware to make it so that if you romanced her you get a unique part of dialogue? Imagine the whine if ashley/kaidan sent that mail to everyone even if they didnt romance her

Damn, I'm gone for a weekend and this thing grows 8-9 pages...
I'm doing my first non Liara play through right now and just ran into kaiden, damn was upset after listening to him say that he loved me and blah blah blah plus getting an e-mail apologizing and hoping maybe things could one day go back to the way they had been before, something I enver got with Liara.  Then I went and talked with Liara and honestly, the hug she give me instead of the kiss she gave the first two times though was less awkward then the kiss and seemed to actually have more emotion behind it.

[vadrillan]

Is it just me that thought there was a lot more going on behind the scenes with ME2 Liara than "I'm a bit busy to talk to you now"?

[crimzontearz]

vadrillan wrote...

Is it just me that thought there was a lot more going on behind the scenes with ME2 Liara than "I'm a bit busy to talk to you now"?

uhm...no

she explains to you she has been cold to you because she was feeling guilty about taking your body to Cerberus....after you tell her "it's ok you did the right thing" she remains the very same.....