1679 réponses à ce sujet

[Driveninhifi]

Madecologist wrote...

I agree with the OP. I am sticklier to playing with what I see. What I saw was, Liara was not a LI anymore. Only Shepard being naive that had the picture up in his room. Which is sad, because I did romance her in ME1 for a reason.

Was this screw up on the devs, not giving her a proper treatment (some argue none of the ME1 LI did, but Liara was worst, so I will rephrase: at least the same treatment that Kai/Ash got the very least) or was this intentional. If intentional scares me, because if it was, she seems to going down the road of "antagonist" very fast. Yeah I have wild imagination, that is what crops up when I think of ME2 portrail of Liara.

She's not going to be an antagonist. Why would she be? She's still obsessed with Shepard and even says that Shepard is the only person she trusts. She spends the whole time terrified Shepard will hate her for what she's done - what about that makes you think she's going to become an antagonist?
Yes, there should have been a lot more to the conversation, but it seems obvious the writers are attempting to hold things back for DLC and ME3. It's a very clumsy attempt to be sure, but there's nothing to indicate she'd ever turn against Shepard.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

yeldarbnotned wrote...

I have not read the comics, but obviously something changed her character for the worse.

You're not missing much. John Jackson Miller (the script writer for the comic book) is a veteran Star Wars writer and handles Liara as if she is a badass Jedi in that universe and not the Liara T'Soni of the Mass Effect universe. It takes him a whole 4 pages to get her into combat and another 6 after that for yet another contrived combat scene. Basically, she's presented out of character for 75-90% of the first two issues.

I hate to sound like a rabid JJM fanboy, but his main work (the Knights of the Old Republic comic series) has a protagonist who avoids violence whenever possible. Seeing as how JJM didn't work on ME2, and Liara acts very similar in that and the comics, I don't think he's entirely to blame.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Bumping this thread to show my disappointment at the Liara cameo role in ME2. Also staying true to Liara. But wonders if they are even able to give her a decent squadmate role, if they can’t even write a small cameo with her.

[Fiannawolf]

I have the first 2 comics and Im just wondering if they want to release DLC involving Liara once the series is done in April. Looong time to wait for 2 of my imported sheps. Unfortunately for my other one.....



Kurau Shepard: KAAAAAAAI KAAAAAAAAAI !!!!!



She's gonna need a kai shaped pillow for a while....esp if its til 2012ish....

[Fiannawolf]

Jeez, lag monster strikes again with double posts

Modifié par Fiannawolf, 15 février 2010 - 10:49 .

[Ultra Prism]

i will keep posting to until some dev responds to this thread ....

[wolf99000]

I wonder if they did the whole vague me 1 love interest in me 2 is because they play a big part in 3 I mean maybe the reapers go after her to draw you out or something as they do have an obsession with you



or much more likely she gets in over her head with the sb and you have to bail her out

[Driveninhifi]

Keep in mind they really have no reason to respond. It's a losing battle for them - no matter what they say, it won't change the game as is. They've got an idea for the character. It's already set - the comics are written. I think it's actually an interesting place to take the character. I don't agree with presenting Liara as aggressive (guilty, determined and obsessed, sure - but revenge is not in her character) and I feel that the presentation could have used a lot of work - it's too forced (both in the information and dialogue options kept from the player) as it is. But you have to admit there's a lot of ground to cover with her internal conflict. It's really unfortunate they didn't cover it in ME2, as I think it won't be as compelling without the threat of Shepard dying again hanging over the conversation. That adds a very interesting subtext that won't be there if the reunion is after Shepard and Liara take down the SB.



Hopefully they take the interesting arguments presented here into consideration in the DLC and in ME3. I think that very good criticisms have been made that would make future content much stronger if implemented.

[ThisIsMadness91]

My dad saw the Liara scene today (he's watching me go through the main story of ME2 on the 360 while he works on his ME1 PC character to import), and although he didn't mind Liara's change in character, he completely understood why people were furious over the lack of acknowledgement of her relationship with Shepard. This time around, I went with one or two "Renegade" dialogue options as I felt rather upset during the exchange. It didn't help that she then tried to criticise me (but at least she apologised afterwards).

[Thomas Andresen]

Daewan wrote...

Romance:

"As a literary genre of high culture, romance or chivalric romance is a style of heroic prose and verse narrative that was popular in the aristocratic circles of High Medieval and Early Modern Europe. They were fantastic stories about the marvelous adventures of a chivalrous, heroic knight errant, often of super-human ability, who often goes on a quest. [...]  In later romances, particularly those of French origin, there is a marked tendency to emphasize themes of courtly love, such as faithfulness in adversity."  (emphasis mine)

See what happens when you pay attention in English Lit?  You learn when you're being set up for a fall in video games.

One more quote from same source:
"Modern usage of term "romance" usually refer to the romance novel, which is a subgenre that focuses on the relationship and romantic love between two people; these novels must have an "emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending.*" Despite the popularity of this popular meaning of Romance, other works are still, occasionally, referred to as romances because of their uses of other elements descended from the medieval romance, or from the Romantic movement: larger-than-life heroes and heroines, drama and adventure, marvels that may become fantastic, themes of honor and loyalty, or fairy-tale-like stories and story settings. [...]."  (emphasis mine)

I see what you did there

Thanks, while the I personally felt the picture scene indeed was touching, I think I lacked the perspective to see how or why.

I still feel that ME3 needs Liara, though.

[Arturia Pendragon]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

I hate to sound like a rabid JJM fanboy, but his main work (the Knights of the Old Republic comic series) has a protagonist who avoids violence whenever possible. Seeing as how JJM didn't work on ME2, and Liara acts very similar in that and the comics, I don't think he's entirely to blame.

JJM was given the overall story arc from Mac Walters (Liara kidnaps Shepards body from the SB with the help of a Drell name Feron, who may or may not end up sacrificing himself following a betrayal (his Redemption)), but the actual writing was entirely his baby. If anyone's to blame for the writing, it's him. Sorry.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 16 février 2010 - 01:29 .

[wolf99000]

I read somewhere that who you dated will play a big part in 3 so maybe they will give us a happy ending with her if we live through 3

[Driveninhifi]

Well, there is a big issue with her character (although Shepard's reaction has a whole lot to do with it, as well)

Shepard's return should be an incredibly important event in her life. This is something she has to have been anticipating and fearing for a long time. And so if Shepard totally shuts her down and says "Yes, you were selfish for bringing me back," that really should totally break her - now all connections to her previous life are gone and her pursuit of the SB is the only thing she has to live for.

Conversely, if Shepard tells her she did the right thing it needs to be an incredibly cathartic moment for her. She can feel justified, far less guilty and begin to believe she can recover her life. If she was Shepard's lover, she would probably begin to hope they could rediscover their romance. I think there needs to be a lot of doubt and internal conflict within her in this case, and the game doesn't let you explore it. That interaction removes one of her primary motivations and the game doesn't acknowledge that fact - which makes things feel very artificial for me.

Now, this does not mean she necessarily has to join Shepard immediately. There's a compelling argument to be made that she still feels incredibly guilty about getting Feron killed and that rejoining her lover would feel like taking the easy way out. Liara is definitely very loyal and true to her own moral compass (side note: this is why I think revenge does not make sense for her character). It would be in character for her to not abandon her search (especially being so close to the end of it) even if she loves Shepard completely and desperately wants to join the Normandy crew. I'd say that actually makes her more interesting, since she's now torn between her love and what she sees as her duty.

They really missed the opportunity to explore this, which is confusing to me as it would have made a very cool conversation. Once the SB is taken care of, there's no reason to have it (as he's the only reason for her to not be on the normandy with Shepard, really) so they kind of missed the boat. As it stands, the conversation has a lot of holes.

[zarr25]

Im still looking for the "I still love you Liara!" dialoge

[Sharn01]

zarr25 wrote...

Im still looking for the "I still love you Liara!" dialoge

If that line of dialog did exsist, this thread would not.

[Ultra Prism]

we need more Liara fans to boost this thread .. i feeling small when i saw tali fans wtf 20000+ posts.... holy crap ... seriously thats just killer ... come on Liara fans lets show bioware our superior dedication

[Sharn01]

Ultra Prism wrote...

we need more Liara fans to boost this thread .. i feeling small when i saw tali fans wtf 20000+ posts.... holy crap ... seriously thats just killer ... come on Liara fans lets show bioware our superior dedication

Most of those posts in the Tali thread consist of

Bumping for Tali love.
or
What, no one has posted in five minutes, your letting Tali down.
Over and over by the same people.

Having people pop in to give support to the thread is great and much appreciated, but non stop bumps that contribute nothing other then to stack up posts and keep the thread at the top of page one just make it hard for some one coming to the thread for the first time read over the exsisting post's.  It is hard enough already with this many pages.

The majority of post's in the two current Liara thread's are people voicing their support, or are constructive conversation, and I like it that way.

[Driveninhifi]

Sigilius wrote...

Their attempts to tempt you off the path of faithfulness were sloppy, I can't deny that. They came off more as blunt statements of, "Your LI has moved on. Get a new one if you ever want to experience love again," rather than, "This is a test of your loyalty. Will you stay faithful?" Therefore, most of the cheaters are really players who simply felt hurt by their old LIs, and decided to move on themselves. Of course, Bioware really means that they're cheaters, and is high-fiving each other at their ability to corrupt players when really the player felt they had no alternative. That's not good writing, Bioware, that's just strong-arming the player into a course of action that you want! If you wanted to really test us, give us something that says, "My LI still loves me, but we can't be together for a while. Should I stay faithful?" rather than, "My LI is probably never coming back. Too bad. Might as well move on too." It's obvious to the player that the LI has moved on, but the writers have already scripted it as cheating, in their desperate attempt to convince players to cheat.

Ultimately, rather than convince players to become unfaithful, they trick them into it. That won't fly with me, Bioware, and I'm sure it won't fly with the others.

(Allow me to footnote this by saying that my Shepard remained faithful to Liara.)

Very well said, and I agree: it's quite clumsy.
It's much more interesting if you are actually cheating - if your love interest was open to a reconciliation then the choice is much harder and more interesting.
As it stands now, can they really get mad at you? You were dead, and they didn't indicate they wanted to continue your relationship.
Ashley: "You left me for the genetically engineered perfect woman?!"
Shep: "Last time we talked, you told me I wasn't the man you loved. Plus she's willing to die for me."
I mean, these are all pretty reasonable characters, so they can't _really_ be surprised you moved on afterhow they treat you (Ash/Kaidan, I mean). Liara would have the most reason to be upset (what with the bringing you back to life and all), but the fact that you can't bring up your relationship still means you are on unsure ground. She's expecting Shepard to hate her too, so I don't think she'd be surprised at all to see someone else on Shepard's arm after ME2. She'd probably think she doesn't deserve Shep because she gave the body to Cerberus, anyway.

I do really want to see an epic Jack vs Ashley fight over Shepard in ME3 though. They both strike me as the jealous type, and if Jack is the love interest in ME2, she seems like she'd be the insane homicidally jealous type. Someone's coming to take the only person she's ever been close to away from her? You are so totally dead, biotically ripped into a billion tiny pieces.

[JPfanner]

It makes no sense at all that including an option to be upset at Liara for freaking bringing you back from dead is even in the game, let alone in the game when an option to express your feelings isn't.



Why the hell would anyone be upset by that anyway? "No, it was better when I just a hunk of freeze dried meat!" or "How dare you save me from being turned into some Reaper puppet!"

[Sigilius]

I really hated the fact that they hid that emotionally charged moment. At the Youtube videos I saw of it (After biting off the arm of my armchair [Which I named Sovereign, since it looks like the Reaper, I swear!] in anger that I missed it), I wanted to give Liara a great big hug, say, "I love you Liara. Don't beat yourself up. It's okay now. I'm here." Maybe then she'd drop the facade that she's maintaining, and let her true colors fly. We all know she's roleplaying with the whole Benezia personna. It just isn't her. We saw through in that moment of weakness (At least, those of us who weren't chewing out our furniture at missing the dialogue option), and saw the true Liara, whose bright, smiling face we all still remember so fondly. God I miss her.



Seriously, though, that line would have been such a better response than, "You did the right thing Liara. The mission comes first." Who gives an elcor's fart about the mission? Liara didn't when she recovered you. She did it out of love, not so Cerberus could use you like the obidient little marionette that you are. Shepard shouldn't have even brought up the mission! He should have expressed how much he loved her, or how much he disapproved of her meddling with Cerberus (If you feel heartless enough to make that vulnerable asari cry. Proud of yourself?). Regardless, let us comfort or argue with her! It's something, at the very least!



Can't WAIT for DLC!