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[Adon 9]

Sharn01 wrote...

Most of those posts in the Tali thread consist of

Bumping for Tali love.
or
What, no one has posted in five minutes, your letting Tali down.
Over and over by the same people.

Having people pop in to give support to the thread is great and much appreciated, but non stop bumps that contribute nothing other then to stack up posts and keep the thread at the top of page one just make it hard for some one coming to the thread for the first time read over the exsisting post's.  It is hard enough already with this many pages.

The majority of post's in the two current Liara thread's are people voicing their support, or are constructive conversation, and I like it that way.

Pretty much this.  I look at this thread often because there's often something interesting to read, or an insight from an angle I hadn't quite figured out before.  Quality over quantity.  And yes, for the record I do like Tali, but even I think that the huge Tali support thread way over the top.

Much better to voice here how you felt about Liara's appearance, why it was disappointing to you, why you think it was a case of poor writing rather than effectively bringing out emotions, and what you think BioWare could do to make it better.

I'll sum up my own reasons here, though they've been said before:
1) Lack of emotional reaction on Shepard's part.
2) Inability to voice things you really want to voice.
3) How forced the change in Liara seems to be, and her seeming indifference to what Shepard is doing.
4) The fact that you can still talk to her after doing her tasks and STILL can't say anything of weight at any time.
5) The non-reaction on the Normandy after, by Joker and Kelly, the lack of email, and so on.

Pretty much all covered elsewhere, but I just wanted to summarize.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Shepard's return should be an incredibly important event in her life. This is something she has to have been anticipating and fearing for a long time. And so if Shepard totally shuts her down and says "Yes, you were selfish for bringing me back," that really should totally break her - now all connections to her previous life are gone and her pursuit of the SB is the only thing she has to live for.

Conversely, if Shepard tells her she did the right thing it needs to be an incredibly cathartic moment for her. She can feel justified, far less guilty and begin to believe she can recover her life. If she was Shepard's lover, she would probably begin to hope they could rediscover their romance. I think there needs to be a lot of doubt and internal conflict within her in this case, and the game doesn't let you explore it. That interaction removes one of her primary motivations and the game doesn't acknowledge that fact - which makes things feel very artificial for me..

This.  Man if they had actually let you explore all of this it would have been great.  Sadly all we get is a "See ya later Liara".

[Kileyan]

I hope Liara is relegated to a very important contact and an information broker. Bioware really messed up in ME2 and made her a different character. I really don't want her back, she's just a hardened Asari now, not the cute explorer I met.

If I want a hardened bland Asari, there are many more than are 100's of years older and have spent those years in combat, not behind a desk or a history book. She really has no place on the squad, but I do hope she is a romantic interest, no reason she has to be on the Normandy to be romance, it gets silly that the only time anyone in the ME galaxy wants to have sex is right before they think they are going to die on a mission, is Shep that bad, sex is only an option when death is around the corner?

Modifié par Kileyan, 16 février 2010 - 06:08 .

[Sigilius]

Littledoom wrote...

If I was you I would have got rid of that chair in fear of being indoctrinated.

"I'm sorry, Littledoom. It's too late for me." Sovereign lives and has taken the form of my demonic purple armchair. I swear it glows red when I'm not looking. Indoctrination has begun. Is submission not preferrable to extincation?

I really can't stand that Liara can't be related to by Shepard. Anything I would have wanted to say is barred, all dialogue options are selfishly focused on recruiting Thane and Samara (I hate that self-righteous justicar! You can't replace Liara, so stop trying! My beautiful blue angel... Sorry! Are you people still reading this?)

What I'm really trying to say is, if Shepard had just responded to Liara like a human being, forced her to reveal her love, appealed to her as a loving being, things would be so great for them right now. It would be Liara I could call up to my cabin, rather than sit there and sulk. So, in my strange little fantasy world, I pretend Shepard disapproves greatly of Liara's antics, and when he says, "I'll talk to you later, Liara," in that tone, he really means, "I miss the old you. I'll come back later. Maybe things will change for the better." Yes, I'm living the Mass Effect equivalent of fantasyland at this point, but hey, sue me for dreaming!

[jojon2se]

For what it's worth, the "see you later" line, at least and to my ears and Hale-edition at least - don't know about Meer, does sound rather... concerned.

[Sharn01]

jojon2se wrote...

For what it's worth, the "see you later" line, at least and to my ears and Hale-edition at least - don't know about Meer, does sound rather... concerned.

I think it does a little bit, and would be appropriate for a former friend.

The conversation with Liara is a bit weak for a friend Shepard, but not completely unbelieveable, it is a complete and total fiasco of horrible writing for a Shepard that loved her.

[jojon2se]

Try "treading carefully".

You-look-like-you've-lost-it-my-love-but-I'll-go-with-this-for-now-as-to-not-risk-upsetting-you-and-make-your-condition-worse-I-just-hope-you-know-what-you-are-doing...

[Leman]

Just finished a second play-through with a ManShep. Dropping Ashley and picking up Miranda, then reloading and getting Tali, I must say that it cuts that much more deeply thinking back on my cannon FemShep (for me!) and how Liara played out.



I remained faithful to her, but I am seriously tempted to start up things with Kelly because of how poorly they treated Liara's character and my utter lack of hope that they can fix it via DLC. Maybe we'll get lucky and Mr. Weekes will take over writing her.



If not then I guess Kelly is the girl for me.

[Mox Ruuga]

Littledoom wrote...

Leman wrote...

Just finished a second play-through with a ManShep. Dropping Ashley and picking up Miranda, then reloading and getting Tali, I must say that it cuts that much more deeply thinking back on my cannon FemShep (for me!) and how Liara played out.

I remained faithful to her, but I am seriously tempted to start up things with Kelly because of how poorly they treated Liara's character and my utter lack of hope that they can fix it via DLC. Maybe we'll get lucky and Mr. Weekes will take over writing her.

If not then I guess Kelly is the girl for me.

Just out of curiosity... anyone know who did writing for Liara in ME2?

As far as I know, it was Mac Walters. The same guy who thought up the "Council believing Sovereign was just a geth ship" nonsense. Also, the lead writer replacement. The ME team not only lost Drew, the brains behind the whole setting, but also Chris L'etoile, the guy supposedly responsible for at least Ash in ME1, and IIRC much of the Codex entries and planetary descriptions etc. No wonder we are seeing more of a superhero comic look and feel for the setting...

[bjdbwea]

But do you really think they could be such bad writers? I mean, the gaming industry definitely hasn't very much really good writers, and the writing in ME 2 does lack at (too) many instances, but you'd think BioWare would only hire the best. If I had to guess, I'd rather blame time constraints, and I'd figure that they even had to restructure during development, which inevitably, especially when you're short of time, leads to plot holes and oversights. Not that the reasons would matter much to us...

[insomniac13]

When i first got ME2 i was like "i cant wait to see Liara again" through most of the

opening missions. I had read up on her, asking people who played the game, and to my horror found out Liara had changed ALOT! I got kinda nervous but said to myself it

couldnt be that bad.. I finally go to Illuminum or whatever the name is and ofcause she is NOTHING like the Asari I, err i mean Shepard fell in love with! So cold and distant.. The only thing i got was a hug or something! When i was making Liara open up during the conversation where she explained why she'd become a hard ass asari i was so happy cos i saw a glimpes of the old cute Liara! Now if only in ME3 they would make a comprimise; make her cute and sweet again while still being mature about it, that would make ME3 epic to me! (as well as bringing Saren back somehow haha)

[insomniac13]

I totally agree with Sigilius! Bioware, i think an extra screenwriter wouldnt hurt ;-)

[Sharn01]

I use to think Liara dialog was bugged, and it was not opening for you even if you romanced her, and that the Kaiden/Ashley dialog triggered for romance even if you did not since Kelly will always ask how you feel, but if that was the case the Dev's would have already responded and let us know that it would be patched.



That is how bad the dialog with Liara is, you think the game does not recognize your romance option.

[Sigilius]

I really can't stand what they did to her. How could the writers, who loved the character so much (I'm a writer myself, and I get so attached to my characters), have ruined her in such a way? I mean, I've made characters suffer, die, and otherwise made their lives suck, but I would never brutalize one, especially one that had earned my undying adoration, by destroying the fundamental elements of her character! Which is why I think Bioware has not done this, despite appearances. They wouldn't ruin a character this obviously! It couldn't have escaped their attention! And of course, Liara isn't totally lost. Not yet. She's still there, vulnerable and afraid. Come on Shepard, I thought you were a man! What man could see that sad asari and not want to give her the best hug of all time?



Nothing more painful than being so close to Liara, and yet having her still so far out of reach. That's why my dream is to combine my ambitions as an actor and writer to one day get a job at BioWare as a voice actor/writer. That would make my day.



But the big reason behind it is I can't stand to see such wonderful characters spoiled. But I trust in the professional and human nature of the BioWare writers. They've got an ace up their sleeve.

[crimzontearz]

sorry to be a downer but I doubt Liara will have this massively improved part in ME3, not with the chance of the other ME1 romances which would reqire an equally large part.



It will probably come down to a confrontation and a choice, and short of the Liara dlc changing her radically Bioware beter give us an option to tell Liara it is HER FAULT if we moved on and not to even begin thinking about uttering the word "cheating"

[Nozybidaj]

Sigilius wrote...

I really can't stand what they did to her. How could the writers, who loved the character so much (I'm a writer myself, and I get so attached to my characters), have ruined her in such a way? I mean, I've made characters suffer, die, and otherwise made their lives suck, but I would never brutalize one, especially one that had earned my undying adoration, by destroying the fundamental elements of her character! Which is why I think Bioware has not done this, despite appearances. They wouldn't ruin a character this obviously! It couldn't have escaped their attention! And of course, Liara isn't totally lost. Not yet. She's still there, vulnerable and afraid. Come on Shepard, I thought you were a man! What man could see that sad asari and not want to give her the best hug of all time?

Nothing more painful than being so close to Liara, and yet having her still so far out of reach. That's why my dream is to combine my ambitions as an actor and writer to one day get a job at BioWare as a voice actor/writer. That would make my day.

But the big reason behind it is I can't stand to see such wonderful characters spoiled. But I trust in the professional and human nature of the BioWare writers. They've got an ace up their sleeve.

I hope so, the only good thing about how brief her appearance is in ME2 is that it kept the character salvagable.  Now they need to come through some truely epic Expansion that makes up her absence in the second game. 

[Nozybidaj]

Littledoom wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

I hope so, the only good thing about how brief her appearance is in ME2 is that it kept the character salvagable.  Now they need to come through some truely epic Expansion that makes up her absence in the second game. 

Well by the look of what they apparently think is epic character development/progression, I would say we are out of luck. But I guess we can always hope even if I have a hard time being optimistic.

It is hard after being given what we got, but what other choice do we have?

[Blansten]

I really don't want the same Liara as ME1, perhaps a hybrid of the 2 versions. It makes sense to me that she would be deeply scarred by the events that happened, Shepards death, her finding the body giving it to Cerberus to save him and losing a friend who saved her life, the guilt she feels about that and the anger she feels toward the Shadow broker. She also mentions being unable to speak on Illium. I wish there could have been a scene on the Normandy where they could reveal their feelings and continue with the story but I am not surprised that there isn't one.



I still find the scene at the end where Shepard looks at her picture before the final mission better than any of the other romance options. I hope that ME3 lets us pick from any of the previous characters for our final team. My canon Shep is with Liara all the way and isn't going to be run off by the Illium encounter.

[wolf99000]

can you have 2 save games one where you cheat on her and one where you don't in the same career would me3 even regonize both saves just wondering as I would like to see if there is any difference

[Nozybidaj]

Blansten wrote...

I really don't want the same Liara as ME1, perhaps a hybrid of the 2 versions. It makes sense to me that she would be deeply scarred by the events that happened, Shepards death, her finding the body giving it to Cerberus to save him and losing a friend who saved her life, the guilt she feels about that and the anger she feels toward the Shadow broker. She also mentions being unable to speak on Illium. I wish there could have been a scene on the Normandy where they could reveal their feelings and continue with the story but I am not surprised that there isn't one.

I still find the scene at the end where Shepard looks at her picture before the final mission better than any of the other romance options. I hope that ME3 lets us pick from any of the previous characters for our final team. My canon Shep is with Liara all the way and isn't going to be run off by the Illium encounter.

Here's what I had to say about not being able to talk while being "recorded" in another thread.

So while being recorded she can openly contact people who owe her money
and threaten to flay them alive and conduct her business openly, she
can discuss her desires to hunt down and kill the SB and how she is
closing in on him, she can discuss her plans to track down the
observer, how she is going to do it, and who she is sending to do it.
 All things that if the SB actually is recording her he could easily
use to undermine her and any plan she has in motion, but oh no, god
forbid if he hears she still loves Shepard, because being the largest
and most powerful information broker in the galaxy that is something
even he wouldn't already know about.

I agree though,  Liara shouldn't return 100% unchanged.  She should be MUCH closer to the old Liara though then the new one once you help her with the SB.