1679 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

Melomaniacal wrote...

I think people need to stop giving ME2 so much crap when it's clear that ME3 will resolve all of these things. You're frustrated now, but you'll be more satisfied when ME3 comes out and you get all that closure. ME2 was a part in the story, not the whole story, and not the conclusion of the story. It's like... reading half of a book, then stopping and saying "wow this book sucks, it didn't conclude anything." Yes, Liara and Shepard's relationship has hit a wall. That's completely reasonable.

So what makes you think ME 3 will resolve all these things, and in a proper manner? It's nice for you to defend the devlopers, but I have little faith left in BioWare at the moment. We still remember their words, but what they did in the end with ME 2 speaks louder. The "middle part of a trilogy" simply can not excuse everything. You will always still have a story in a middle part, and there are always things you have to do right. You can't just outsource important story and plot elements that matter NOW - not into a comic, and not into the next installment. Again, BioWare's decision to sideline the ME 1 companions was, while not evoking rejoice, simply accepted as a fact by the community. What bothers us is that, since BioWare obviously couldn't totally ignore them, they botched even that small appearance. Some don't like the character change in Liara, some even do, but everyone agrees that the scene needed a) more explanation and some way for Shepard to bring up their relationship. And that are exactly the things that mattered NOW, during THAT scene, and can't be left for later.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 février 2010 - 08:04 .

[Nastrod]

bjdbwea wrote...

Melomaniacal wrote...

I think people need to stop giving ME2 so much crap when it's clear that ME3 will resolve all of these things. You're frustrated now, but you'll be more satisfied when ME3 comes out and you get all that closure. ME2 was a part in the story, not the whole story, and not the conclusion of the story. It's like... reading half of a book, then stopping and saying "wow this book sucks, it didn't conclude anything." Yes, Liara and Shepard's relationship has hit a wall. That's completely reasonable.

So what makes you think ME 3 will resolve all these things, and in a proper manner? It's nice for you to defend the devlopers, but I have little faith left in BioWare at the moment. We still remember their words, but what they did in the end with ME 2 speaks louder. The "middle part of a trilogy" simply can not excuse everything. You will always still have a story in a middle part, and there are always things you have to do right. You can't just outsource important story and plot elements that matter NOW - not into a comic, and not into the next installment. Again, BioWare's decision to sideline the ME 1 companions was, while not evoking rejoice, simply accepted as a fact by the community. What bothers us is that, since BioWare obviously couldn't totally ignore them, they botched even that small appearance. Some don't like the character change in Liara, some even do, but everyone agrees that the scene needed a) more explanation and some way for Shepard to bring up their relationship. And that are exactly the things that mattered NOW, during THAT scene, and can't be left for later.

Well I just want to say for ME2 BW did a awesome,amazing, great, and so on job. I do agree 100% they handled the ME1 LIs very poorly though but I still have faith in BW. I do think the way the LIs were treated was a joke after all their talk but do not loose all faith in BW just because of that since ME2 is a amazing game. Even with its few faults it is still a game far beyond almost all games.

[Nozybidaj]

Melomaniacal wrote...

I think it's extremely obvious that it will all come full circle in ME3. Both characters were caught up in something. Shepard's has resolved, Liara's will resolve by/during ME3.
I think people need to stop giving ME2 so much crap when it's clear that ME3 will resolve all of these things. You're frustrated now, but you'll be more satisfied when ME3 comes out and you get all that closure. ME2 was a part in the story, not the whole story, and not the conclusion of the story. It's like... reading half of a book, then stopping and saying "wow this book sucks, it didn't conclude anything." Yes, Liara and Shepard's relationship has hit a wall. That's completely reasonable.

Getting a conclusion in ME3 does nothing to make me satisfied with ME2.  Sorry the "oh just wait another two years now" excuse doesn't sit well with me when I've already been waiting two years.  ME2 should have continued their stories not just pushed them off to a later date.

[Nozybidaj]

Nastrod wrote...

I am in shock that some people even defend the way Liara and for the matter all ME1 LIs were treated. I honestly think Liara was handled the worst since at least Ash/Kaedin were shocked about Cerberus and they also send you a e-mail later on ( at least that is what I have heard).

Lets see before ME2 your Liara's first love, take her virginity, she gets in a verbal battle with Ash over you, She risks her life to retrieve your body, and so on

Lets see what happens in ME2 you get a quick kiss and she gives you 2 jobs to hack for her......Ya I felt the love!

Agreed, and telling me "oh in 2 years we'll make it all better" doesn't exactly tide me over or fill me with confidence.

[Nozybidaj]

Nastrod wrote...
Well I just want to say for ME2 BW did a awesome,amazing, great, and so on job. I do agree 100% they handled the ME1 LIs very poorly though but I still have faith in BW. I do think the way the LIs were treated was a joke after all their talk but do not loose all faith in BW just because of that since ME2 is a amazing game. Even with its few faults it is still a game far beyond almost all games.

I guess I just am not as forgiving as the current crop of gamers today.  I prefer to hold developers to a higher standard, especially a group that seems to pride themselves on their story telling ability,  BW asked us to "trust them", that even if the ME1 LI's weren't squadmates that they "knew what they were doing".  After having played ME2 it all rings false to me.  I gave them the benefit of the doubt, I bought and played the game.  Now my free pass is all used up.  BW needs to make good now.  Unless the intent all along was to totally trash the ME1 LI's and leave it at that and just wanted us to buy the game anyway.

I'd like to think that after all the games I have enjoyed from them that BW is better than that, but now its time to prove it.  And no, just telling me to wait till ME3 doesn't cut it.  ME2 at the moment is a failure of story telling.  You don't just throw away main characters a third of the way into a trilogy and call it a success.  Even Lucas knew that when making ESB and this is the same man that thought Jar-Jar Binks was a good idea.  Do you really want to accept the fact that BW are worse story tellers than the man that created Jar-Jar Binks?

[Melomaniacal]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Melomaniacal wrote...

I think it's extremely obvious that it will all come full circle in ME3. Both characters were caught up in something. Shepard's has resolved, Liara's will resolve by/during ME3.
I think people need to stop giving ME2 so much crap when it's clear that ME3 will resolve all of these things. You're frustrated now, but you'll be more satisfied when ME3 comes out and you get all that closure. ME2 was a part in the story, not the whole story, and not the conclusion of the story. It's like... reading half of a book, then stopping and saying "wow this book sucks, it didn't conclude anything." Yes, Liara and Shepard's relationship has hit a wall. That's completely reasonable.

Getting a conclusion in ME3 does nothing to make me satisfied with ME2.  Sorry the "oh just wait another two years now" excuse doesn't sit well with me when I've already been waiting two years.  ME2 should have continued their stories not just pushed them off to a later date.

Well, I didn't realise that this ruined ME2 for you. If that's the case, then sure, you have every right to be mad at BW.

[Nozybidaj]

Melomaniacal wrote...

Well, I didn't realise that this ruined ME2 for you. If that's the case, then sure, you have every right to be mad at BW.

It did actually.  I am missing the entire second chapter of the trilogy at this point.  There are a lot of good things they did in ME2 but I am not going to simply give them a free pass on such a major story telling blunder as casting out the main characters from the first game.

[Daeion]

Joekababazae wrote...

I was expecting a really well thought out scene upon metting Liara again... Bioware kinda missed that one

they weren't even in the same country.

[vigna]

I still think Liara's greeting was more of an "embrace the Goddess" Asari Mind frell rather than a hug or kiss....that's the way I got it. It was just in public. Liara may not like PDA.

[Driveninhifi]

One of the problems with ME2's general plot is that it seems pretty much irrelevant to the greater story about the reapers. They introduced some characters that may have a role to play, and some ideas that could be important (especially the Geth being divided), but I feel like there really wasn't much in the game that absolutely had to happen to set up ME3. It feels like a side story rather than part 2 in a trilogy.

The ME1 interests are similar - it feels like more of a reset button on the relationship. It will be interesting to see if they reset the ME2 relationships going into ME3. If you didn't cheat and have a partner from ME2, wouldn't they be with you the entire game? I'd like to see that, actually, as no game has really done a believable, sustained relationship.

[Nastrod]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Nastrod wrote...
Well I just want to say for ME2 BW did a awesome,amazing, great, and so on job. I do agree 100% they handled the ME1 LIs very poorly though but I still have faith in BW. I do think the way the LIs were treated was a joke after all their talk but do not loose all faith in BW just because of that since ME2 is a amazing game. Even with its few faults it is still a game far beyond almost all games.

I guess I just am not as forgiving as the current crop of gamers today.  I prefer to hold developers to a higher standard, especially a group that seems to pride themselves on their story telling ability,  BW asked us to "trust them", that even if the ME1 LI's weren't squadmates that they "knew what they were doing".  After having played ME2 it all rings false to me.  I gave them the benefit of the doubt, I bought and played the game.  Now my free pass is all used up.  BW needs to make good now.  Unless the intent all along was to totally trash the ME1 LI's and leave it at that and just wanted us to buy the game anyway.

I'd like to think that after all the games I have enjoyed from them that BW is better than that, but now its time to prove it.  And no, just telling me to wait till ME3 doesn't cut it.  ME2 at the moment is a failure of story telling.  You don't just throw away main characters a third of the way into a trilogy and call it a success.  Even Lucas knew that when making ESB and this is the same man that thought Jar-Jar Binks was a good idea.  Do you really want to accept the fact that BW are worse story tellers than the man that created Jar-Jar Binks?

You say your free pass is up but sounds like you do not have a free pass. Now again I fully agree they failed BIG time with the LIs to the point it is a complete joke. In saying that though you say you enjoy all their games but after one game you want to write them off just because of one aspect of the game? This is how I see it, BW has to know they messed up by now or at least I hope they do. The comic book is all about Liara so I will wait till it is done. If I do not hear something real from BW about the ME1 LIs after around a month after the last comic book then I will be in the same boat as you are. The game has not even been out a month so we need some time for DLC news.

I am just saying over all ME2 is a amazing game and very few games can stand next to it. Do not write off BW just because of the one aspect so soon. I have loved every BW game there is and yes I have played if not all at least almost all. At least wait some time. It is clear to any BW fan that they listen to their fans even if they do not always do what they ask but they are rare for a developer that they really do listen.

Their main focus every game is the characters so I am just hoping they had some plan but the end result it was done very poorly and it only made sense to them because they are the only ones that know the whole story but they now see their mistake. So true BW fans should at least wait till after the comic book or  at least longer then less then a month to fully write them off.

I honestly think they wanted to bring new people to the ME world and new LIs so they did not want people to be distracted to much with old LIs so that they may experience the new LIs. If that is the case then dumb dumb dumb. Whatever the reason though I agree BW handled it very bad.

[Nozybidaj]

Nastrod wrote...
Their main focus every game is the characters so I am just hoping they had some plan but the end result it was done very poorly and it only made sense to them because they are the only ones that know the whole story but they now see their mistake. So true BW fans should at least wait till after the comic book or  at least longer then less then a month to fully write them off.

Honestly, if I had already written them off I wouldn't be here.  I'm willing to give them a chance to make up for this, and yes, it won't come at this point till after the comic is done.  That doesn't mean I can't call them on the major blunders they've made and voice my disappointment.  If they do botch the comic or do nothing after it to make up for the blunders of ME2 then I think that would be the point I write them off.

I honestly think they wanted to bring new people to the ME world and
new LIs so they did not want people to be distracted to much with old
LIs so that they may experience the new LIs. If that is the case then
dumb dumb dumb. Whatever the reason though I agree BW handled it very
bad.

I would be all for them having brought new characters into the world.  I don't see why that was cause to cast out the old ones.  In fact it made it harder to accept the new ones because of how poorly handled the old ones were.  Maybe BW thought they were doing a good thing by taking fan favorite characters from the previous game, writing them out and giving them horrible cameo appearance, I dunno.  If they did think that was a good thing, they were wrong.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 16 février 2010 - 09:53 .

[bjdbwea]

Fair enough, but what's your point? That we should preorder ME 3? Sorry, ain't gonna happen. BioWare blew it, and the faith is gone. They can say what they want from now on, but I'll wait for (trustworthy) reviews, and possibly comments from the community. Like I for a long time already did with all other developers. That has nothing to do with writing them off - if the game delivers, I'll gladly pay the price. Otherwise, I'll just wait for the price to drop, buy it used, or perhaps even not at all.

[Sharn01]

I really was not all that happy with ME2 story in general, the treatment of the ME1 romances, Liara in particular, was just the worst example and really hit home with what was wrong.



The game easily could have taken place with Shep as a Spectre investigating the disappearing colonies, Cerberus could have been a major player in the story, possibly even kidnapping colonist's for the purpose of experiments in Reaper tech they took from the citidel wreckage, they could have even given Shep the choice to let them do their thing, or even secretly join them for the human supremecist renegade player's.



Instead we get a story that seems very forced, the only way to get Shep working for Cerberus was to kill her and have Cerberus bring her back to life, completely hitting the reset button on the game and all previous relationship's and character developement.



Every video game limit's the paths a player can take, but never have I played a Bioware game that made my decision's feel so forced and inconsistent with the character. It would be different if this story was not about Shepard, but it is, and we have all of ME1 set as character history.



The conversation with Liara disappointed me not just because I liked her and she was my Shep's LI, but because the whole situation is a blatant example of the new Shepard. I am just going to sit here and go along with everything that is presented to me in a completely out of character and totally unbelieveable fashion. I will occasionaly add some spineless threat that I wont follow the path presented to me, but in the end I will, and I will constantly contradict my self as to the reason's I am doing it.

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

Fair enough, but what's your point? That we should preorder ME 3? Sorry, ain't gonna happen. BioWare blew it, and the faith is gone. They can say what they want from now on, but I'll wait for (trustworthy) reviews, and possibly comments from the community. Like I for a long time already did with all other developers. That has nothing to do with writing them off - if the game delivers, I'll gladly pay the price. Otherwise, I'll just wait for the price to drop, buy it used, or perhaps even not at all.

You know, I usually do the same thing.  BW is one of only a few development companies that I don't wait on reviews for before getting their games.  Even with all the pre-launch concerns and hesitations I had, I still pre-ordered the game thinking to myself "Hey, its Bioware.  I'm sure it won't be as bad I think it will be".

Considering my concerns and low expectations for the LI's coming into the game it is fairly surprising they failed to even reach that mark.  I don't think I'm willing to place that kind of trust in them again unless they prove themselves worthy of it now.

Yeah I know, BW doesn't give a Vorcha's ass about one loudmouth forum goer not buying their games anymore.  "Acceptable losses" and all, right?  Still, not supporting their future developments will speak louder than any thousands of posts we can make on the forum.  I hate to say it but BW won't care what we think till we don't buy the game.

[Nozybidaj]

Sharn01 wrote...
The conversation with Liara disappointed me not just because I liked her and she was my Shep's LI, but because the whole situation is a blatant example of the new Shepard. I am just going to sit here and go along with everything that is presented to me in a completely out of character and totally unbelieveable fashion. I will occasionaly add some spineless threat that I wont follow the path presented to me, but in the end I will, and I will constantly contradict my self as to the reason's I am doing it.

Heh, that's a good summary of Shep in ME2.  /shouldershrug "Meh, whatever"  is pretty much his whole attitude throughout the game.

Still, they wouldn't have had to change a single thing to be able to add Liara to squad if they had so chosen.  Want her to survive to ME3?  Get her kidnapped by the Collectors before the suicide mission and Shep has to go save her.  THAT would have been great drama.  Can you imagine your reaction to seeing Liara get dragged into that elevator instead of Kelly?  That would have gotten me out of my chair and yelling at the screen, that would have been emotionally engaging.

[RVonE]

Sharn01 wrote...

I really was not all that happy with ME2 story in general, the treatment of the ME1 romances, Liara in particular, was just the worst example and really hit home with what was wrong.

The game easily could have taken place with Shep as a Spectre investigating the disappearing colonies, Cerberus could have been a major player in the story, possibly even kidnapping colonist's for the purpose of experiments in Reaper tech they took from the citidel wreckage, they could have even given Shep the choice to let them do their thing, or even secretly join them for the human supremecist renegade player's.

Instead we get a story that seems very forced, the only way to get Shep working for Cerberus was to kill her and have Cerberus bring her back to life, completely hitting the reset button on the game and all previous relationship's and character developement.

Every video game limit's the paths a player can take, but never have I played a Bioware game that made my decision's feel so forced and inconsistent with the character. It would be different if this story was not about Shepard, but it is, and we have all of ME1 set as character history.

The conversation with Liara disappointed me not just because I liked her and she was my Shep's LI, but because the whole situation is a blatant example of the new Shepard. I am just going to sit here and go along with everything that is presented to me in a completely out of character and totally unbelieveable fashion. I will occasionaly add some spineless threat that I wont follow the path presented to me, but in the end I will, and I will constantly contradict my self as to the reason's I am doing it.

THIS. I totally feel the same way about what has happened to Shepard in ME2. Hell, I've played through the game a couple of times now and I still feel this fundamental disconnect between my old Shepard and this one. Why is Ash/Kaiden the only one who can say she/he knows where her/his loyalty lies and that working with Cerberus is absolutely out of the question? And then the Liara bit... oh it's because "we have to make sure your LI survives for ME3". Whatever.

On the old forums, way before ME2 was released, this was my signature:
"In ME2 important choices translate to cameos so ME3 can be more awesomer, weapons technology devolves to incorporate reload concerns, and being edgy is all the rage."

[Driveninhifi]

Well, they were going for the "desperate times" sort of feel. Many devs compared it to Empire Strikes Back - which isn't precisely apt. Desperate times is fine by me - but the immediate threat of the Collectors is not so immediate in game. There need to be colonies dying left and right and people talking about it all over the place. Sure, it's mentioned on the Normandy, but it would have been cool to hear all the aliens talking about it all the time too. Newscasts, etc - it would have been cool to have alien "talking heads" saying the humans deserve it for expanding so fast and show another alien's rebuttal, etc.

Dragon Age has this issue as well - sure there's a blight going on, but you feel kind of disconnected from the whole thing. The urgency just isn't there.

That said, I do like the overarching plot (even though it would have been better as a side story) though I think there needed to be more development/reasoning behind you joining Cerberus (it's possible Shep has no problems with them, but it's likely Shep would feel very reluctant to join up). Maybe a section where you go to the alliance and they do nothing, forcing you to watch a colony get eradicated. Something to force your hand, so to speak.

Most of the problems with the plot have to do with a lack of development in general. They've got great ideas, they just needed to let them grow a bit better. It's a weird combination of ambition and lack of it. It was ambitious to change Liara so much, but they didn't actually go all the way with the development and really let the player interact with her. It's a much weaker experience because of this.

[wolf99000]

on shep joining cerberus going with the game if you start a new shep from mass effect 2 I would say he would have no problem going with them if that is cannon as I got the impression that you did not do much good in mass effect 1 in the official cannon

[morrie23]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...
The conversation with Liara disappointed me not just because I liked her and she was my Shep's LI, but because the whole situation is a blatant example of the new Shepard. I am just going to sit here and go along with everything that is presented to me in a completely out of character and totally unbelieveable fashion. I will occasionaly add some spineless threat that I wont follow the path presented to me, but in the end I will, and I will constantly contradict my self as to the reason's I am doing it.

Heh, that's a good summary of Shep in ME2.  /shouldershrug "Meh, whatever"  is pretty much his whole attitude throughout the game.

Still, they wouldn't have had to change a single thing to be able to add Liara to squad if they had so chosen.  Want her to survive to ME3?  Get her kidnapped by the Collectors before the suicide mission and Shep has to go save her.  THAT would have been great drama.  Can you imagine your reaction to seeing Liara get dragged into that elevator instead of Kelly?  That would have gotten me out of my chair and yelling at the screen, that would have been emotionally engaging.

I think there are many situations in ME2 where the reaction of Shep fails, not least the interaction with Liara but also with the virmire survivor and with Cerberus. There are just too any points were it looks like the 'easy way out' was taken in a conversation, too many times I saw the paragon or renegade conversation options were missing, don't really remember seeing this in ME1. In summary, too much neutral (Meh) Shep.

So much could of been done with Liara (you know, to be 'emotionally engaging'), maybe  we could of saved her from the shadow broker or something, but I guess this would spoil the comic

[Sharn01]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Well, they were going for the "desperate times" sort of feel. Many devs compared it to Empire Strikes Back - which isn't precisely apt. Desperate times is fine by me - but the immediate threat of the Collectors is not so immediate in game. There need to be colonies dying left and right and people talking about it all over the place. Sure, it's mentioned on the Normandy, but it would have been cool to hear all the aliens talking about it all the time too. Newscasts, etc - it would have been cool to have alien "talking heads" saying the humans deserve it for expanding so fast and show another alien's rebuttal, etc.
Dragon Age has this issue as well - sure there's a blight going on, but you feel kind of disconnected from the whole thing. The urgency just isn't there.
That said, I do like the overarching plot (even though it would have been better as a side story) though I think there needed to be more development/reasoning behind you joining Cerberus (it's possible Shep has no problems with them, but it's likely Shep would feel very reluctant to join up). Maybe a section where you go to the alliance and they do nothing, forcing you to watch a colony get eradicated. Something to force your hand, so to speak.
Most of the problems with the plot have to do with a lack of development in general. They've got great ideas, they just needed to let them grow a bit better. It's a weird combination of ambition and lack of it. It was ambitious to change Liara so much, but they didn't actually go all the way with the development and really let the player interact with her. It's a much weaker experience because of this.

Do not misunderstand me, the plot and over all story in and of its self is sound, my complaint is that the plot should not be Shepard's plot, it is much more fitting for some one else.

[Sharn01]

wolf99000 wrote...

on shep joining cerberus going with the game if you start a new shep from mass effect 2 I would say he would have no problem going with them if that is cannon as I got the impression that you did not do much good in mass effect 1 in the official cannon

What is this official canon of which you speak.  There is no canon Shepard, there is a default Shepard, big difference.

But there is a character developement to Shepard, the boundaries in which they allow you to choose and make your decision's during the game, and lines that no matter how good or bad your Shepard is, s/he will not cross.

The problem between ME1 and ME2 is those boundaries not only fail to match up with each other, they are not even in the same spectrum.  This is not a problem for someone who has never played ME1, and people who play ME2 first and then go back to ME1 will feel the story is just as out of place for that game as the people who play ME1 feel the story is out of place in ME2.

I am not speaking for everyone of course, but I also do not think I am anywhere near alone in my opinion either.

Modifié par Sharn01, 17 février 2010 - 01:09 .

[wolf99000]

got to say the whole death thing bothered me from the start it was just a way to get rid of powers the old ship and your teammates from 1 plus it is just accepted that you are back and good again with no price plus you have just spent the first game killing the geth cybernetic life forms and you now have a ton of cybernetic stuff in you and nothing is said I mean take tali when she gets told about edi just that back at jacob said a lot but with you its just ok



maybe they can explain all this and the me1 love interests by making some kind price and that you don't totally have the same personality but also they sort of cannot do that because they had the im wanting you back the same as before

[wolf99000]

Sharn01 wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

on shep joining cerberus going with the game if you start a new shep from mass effect 2 I would say he would have no problem going with them if that is cannon as I got the impression that you did not do much good in mass effect 1 in the official cannon

What is this official canon of which you speak.  There is no canon Shepard, there is a default Shepard, big difference.

But there is a character developement to Shepard, the boundaries in which they allow you to choose and make your decision's during the game, and lines that no matter how good or bad your Shepard is, s/he will not cross.

The problem between ME1 and ME2 is those boundaries not only fail to match up with each other, they are not even in the same spectrum.  This is not a problem for someone who has never played ME1, and people who play ME2 first and then go back to ME1 will feel the story is just as out of place for that game as the people who play ME1 feel the story is out of place in ME2.

I am not speaking for everyone of course, but I also do not think I am anywhere near alone in my opinion either.

I figured that if you start a new shep in me2 that you would be playing the cannon story that bioware planned