1679 réponses à ce sujet

[JPfanner]

wako58 wrote...

......but the difference is that I'm not talking about romances and it seems pretty clear that's what you're referring too.  I'm  talking about the reappearance of characters either in squad or not.  I'm not talking about Liara, which seems to be your issue given your history of posts.  There is nothing stopping her from being an active member of your squad in ME3.  There are plenty of characters that she could replace.  In some people's games her absence will not be missed but I romanced her in ME1 and I want her back but that's my opinion and has nothing to do with what bioware will ultimately do.  The only saving grace you, and I, have is that she is the only character guaranteed not to die and therefore there can be no reason preventing her return.  Apparently she'll return on bioware's terms and not ours.

Sure, Liara is my issue and why the majority of my posting history reflects that interest.  I otherwise enjoyed ME2, except for the railroading with being forced to work with Cerberus and the forced stupidity of the Council and Alliance to reinforce that.  Of the original squadmates from ME1 it is kind of hard to be unsatisfied with their roles in ME2 and not have romances come up.  Who is going to think Tali or Garrus weren't given enough of a role and had no interaction?  Wrex is done well, but even his role is totally expendable and he can be replaced by his brother.  So that leaves Ashley/Kaiden and Liara.  And they were handled poorly by any standard, whether you were romancing them or not. 

I've never played a Maleshep so I've never romanced Ashely, but I always save her at Virmire because she has a family.  I think Kaiden is the better soldier, but each time I had to make that choice I saved Ashley.  And really by my own standards it was the wrong choice, I made the wrong command decision but I just couldn't leave Ashley to die after she had told me about her sisters.  So it was a freaking kick in the gut being chewed out by her on Horizon and forced to endure it because of the really poor dialog options I was given.  And I imagine that is even more frustrating for people who had more of an emotional investment in her.

All the squadmates in ME2 are potentially dead.  My point was that if having the potential to have romanced someone was enough of a justification to reduce their role to the point where interaction didn't exist; then surely potentially being dead on top of being romanceable might carry just as much "stigma" moving into ME3.

[Nozybidaj]

Littledoom wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Agreed, I still have plenty of nerd rage left in me.  Saving it up for when Redemption 3 comes out and we see Liara sucking face with the Drell.  Its gonna be epic.

I hope Mac have enough sense in his skull not to do that, I would not like to be him if he did that.

LOL well I highly doubt folks like Mac and Casey do much perusing of the forums.  I imagine for the most part Mac and the rest of BW would care less if we nerd raged for weeks afterwards.  And its not like any of the mods are gonna "pass it along".

Would at least get it out of my system.

[Terraneaux]

exskeeny wrote...

maybe shepard doesn't fancy liara anymore?

That should be a choice you are allowed to make.

[Comrade_Vlad77]

I'm new to these forums, but I romanced Liara and I would like to take this opportunity to state how sad I am that she did not play a bigger role in ME2. Already been said, but I felt I needed to say it too. On a side note, I just looked at the Tali thread, and does anyone else find it slightly disturbing in there? What am I missing that has turned Tali into a major religion?

[Sharn01]

Her thread is very difficult to read, people bump it if no one post's for more then 2 minutes forcing you to have to look even harder then normal in a large thread for anything of value.

[bjdbwea]

maikanix wrote...

What people are forgetting to notice is that, during the kiss, she looks straight at shepard, and shakes her head "no" or "we can't". There's SOMETHING she can't tell us. Maybe it's part of the arrangement with Cerberus. Maybe it's something else. But there's some reason she can't be more affectionate at the moment. Bioware was clearly, to me at least, attempting to use that moment. It was frustrating, but believable. She had to pretend to be distant towards you for some secret reason, and that kiss was even a breach - which is why she turned her head away with that distant look.

Even if that was their intention, then it obviously didn't work, as most people are simply puzzled. But I don't think they put that much thought into the scene anyway. Let's face it: How many other scenes have you found in ME 2 that were designed with such a subtle approach? Not exactly many, I'd say. <_<

[wolf99000]

bjdbwea wrote...

maikanix wrote...

What people are forgetting to notice is that, during the kiss, she looks straight at shepard, and shakes her head "no" or "we can't". There's SOMETHING she can't tell us. Maybe it's part of the arrangement with Cerberus. Maybe it's something else. But there's some reason she can't be more affectionate at the moment. Bioware was clearly, to me at least, attempting to use that moment. It was frustrating, but believable. She had to pretend to be distant towards you for some secret reason, and that kiss was even a breach - which is why she turned her head away with that distant look.

Even if that was their intention, then it obviously didn't work, as most people are simply puzzled. But I don't think they put that much thought into the scene anyway. Let's face it: How many other scenes have you found in ME 2 that were designed with such a subtle approach? Not exactly many, I'd say. <_<

the only thing that really can explain it is they chopped a ton of stuff out with the comic and maybe dlc to come explaining it all but still that does not explain why you are so cold when talking with liara

[Yeled]

Sharn01 wrote...

Her thread is very difficult to read, people bump it if no one post's for more then 2 minutes forcing you to have to look even harder then normal in a large thread for anything of value.

I like Tali and really appreciate the complexities Bioware put into the story of the Quarians and the Geth.  I like how convincing she is during her loyalty mission, too, and how she describes how difficult things are for the Quarians since the loss of their homeworld.

Despite that, and despite the fact that I would really appreciate Liara having a larger role in ME3 (or in dlc) so I understand where they are coming from, the Tali thread scares me.

[Sphynx118]

bjdbwea wrote...

maikanix wrote...

What people are forgetting to notice is that, during the kiss, she looks straight at shepard, and shakes her head "no" or "we can't". There's SOMETHING she can't tell us. Maybe it's part of the arrangement with Cerberus. Maybe it's something else. But there's some reason she can't be more affectionate at the moment. Bioware was clearly, to me at least, attempting to use that moment. It was frustrating, but believable. She had to pretend to be distant towards you for some secret reason, and that kiss was even a breach - which is why she turned her head away with that distant look.

Even if that was their intention, then it obviously didn't work, as most people are simply puzzled. But I don't think they put that much thought into the scene anyway. Let's face it: How many other scenes have you found in ME 2 that were designed with such a subtle approach? Not exactly many, I'd say. <_<

That bugged the hell out of me -.- I was waiting the whole conversation for her to give me a clue to why she was shaking her pretty head at me but no, nothing. There better be a good reason

[meznaric]

wako58 wrote...

meznaric wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

meznaric wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

thats going to be a problem with 3 how are they going to fit in everyone you have already met and new crewmates unless they give you all the old and some new and let you choose between them who you take that would work for me

Could be, but I have a strong feeling that the ME2 characters are not going to be squad mates in ME3 since they all might die. So from the ME1 characters, that leaves Liara.

thats the problem they are going to let you import save games again and by that time you will have 2 games worth of decsions and some games if not most will have everyone living in the end of 2 and I cannot see them not having any new crewmates in 3

Agreed. I also think they will have new squad mates in 3.

I hear this a lot and if Bioware does this then it borders on the ridiculous.  We just spent a great deal of time on recruiting a wide variety of characters and making them loyal to Shep in ME2.  To turn around and do the EXACT same thing in ME3 just does not make a lot of sense.  It's like replaying the same damn game over again.  Why the "F" would I want to do that?  I like the game tremendously but that is patently obsurd. It's no longer ME3, it becomes ME2 expansion pack. 

I totally agree with this sentiment. Overall, I like Bioware games. But what I don't like is that they seem to have a model game in their heads and it all goes according to that model. I don't like that there is not a sense of mystery involved. Say in ME2 you knew from the very beginning what the whole game was going to be like. You knew you were going to recruit a bunch of people and then go through Omega 4 and finish the game. Nothing unexpected. Maybe a twist here and there but that's it. Thinking of Bioware games, KOTOR1, Kotor2, ME1, ME2 they all pretty much have the same structure. I really think they need to start being a bit more innovative.

[wolf99000]

Yeled wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Her thread is very difficult to read, people bump it if no one post's for more then 2 minutes forcing you to have to look even harder then normal in a large thread for anything of value.

I like Tali and really appreciate the complexities Bioware put into the story of the Quarians and the Geth.  I like how convincing she is during her loyalty mission, too, and how she describes how difficult things are for the Quarians since the loss of their homeworld.

Despite that, and despite the fact that I would really appreciate Liara having a larger role in ME3 (or in dlc) so I understand where they are coming from, the Tali thread scares me.

I think for sure me3 will see you helping the Quarians take back there world or trying to stop them going to war and get them make peace with legion and his group so that would pretty make certain tali will be in the 3rd game if not on your squad

[meznaric]

wolf99000 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Her thread is very difficult to read, people bump it if no one post's for more then 2 minutes forcing you to have to look even harder then normal in a large thread for anything of value.

I like Tali and really appreciate the complexities Bioware put into the story of the Quarians and the Geth.  I like how convincing she is during her loyalty mission, too, and how she describes how difficult things are for the Quarians since the loss of their homeworld.

Despite that, and despite the fact that I would really appreciate Liara having a larger role in ME3 (or in dlc) so I understand where they are coming from, the Tali thread scares me.

I think for sure me3 will see you helping the Quarians take back there world or trying to stop them going to war and get them make peace with legion and his group so that would pretty make certain tali will be in the 3rd game if not on your squad

So they'll create double squad members, sort of just in case if your Tali died?

[Talon_Wu]

JPfanner wrote...

Sure, Liara is my issue and why the majority of my posting history reflects that interest.  I otherwise enjoyed ME2, except for the railroading with being forced to work with Cerberus and the forced stupidity of the Council and Alliance to reinforce that.  Of the original squadmates from ME1 it is kind of hard to be unsatisfied with their roles in ME2 and not have romances come up.  Who is going to think Tali or Garrus weren't given enough of a role and had no interaction?  Wrex is done well, but even his role is totally expendable and he can be replaced by his brother.  So that leaves Ashley/Kaiden and Liara.  And they were handled poorly by any standard, whether you were romancing them or not. 

I've never played a Maleshep so I've never romanced Ashely, but I always save her at Virmire because she has a family.  I think Kaiden is the better soldier, but each time I had to make that choice I saved Ashley.  And really by my own standards it was the wrong choice, I made the wrong command decision but I just couldn't leave Ashley to die after she had told me about her sisters.  So it was a freaking kick in the gut being chewed out by her on Horizon and forced to endure it because of the really poor dialog options I was given.  And I imagine that is even more frustrating for people who had more of an emotional investment in her.

All the squadmates in ME2 are potentially dead.  My point was that if having the potential to have romanced someone was enough of a justification to reduce their role to the point where interaction didn't exist; then surely potentially being dead on top of being romanceable might carry just as much "stigma" moving into ME3.

Ah, yes. Ashley on Horizon. To me, a character treatment second only to Liara's. To get exactly the same reaction from her, no matter what you say in your (limited) conversation options, is just...wrong. If I say "I'm working for Cerberus now," I should get "WTF Shepard" as a response. If I say, "I was dead/unconscious for two years, I would still be dead if not for them, and you would be on that Collector ship if I were dead. I do not have to like or trust them to save the galaxy in their snazzy new ship. QED," a reasonable response should be, "I don't like it, but you were my friend and commander, never let me down, and, in fact, saved my life. I will hold off on ripping you a new one."

The number of bizarre/incomplete "choices" in ME2 boggles the mind. If I can choose to give info to A) the Alliance Cerberus or C) keep it for myself in one mission, why do I automatically give similar items to Cerberus in others? I felt like a collaborator every time, it was totally out of character for my Shepard. Finally being able to tell TIM to stuff it felt so good.

[Talon_Wu]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Littledoom wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Agreed, I still have plenty of nerd rage left in me.  Saving it up for when Redemption 3 comes out and we see Liara sucking face with the Drell.  Its gonna be epic.

I hope Mac have enough sense in his skull not to do that, I would not like to be him if he did that.

LOL well I highly doubt folks like Mac and Casey do much perusing of the forums.  I imagine for the most part Mac and the rest of BW would care less if we nerd raged for weeks afterwards.  And its not like any of the mods are gonna "pass it along".

Would at least get it out of my system.

That's the weirdest thing I've noticed about these ME2 forums. No mods, no devs. I've spent so much time in the DAO forums, where the lead writers and the rest of the devs posted with regularity, and there was interaction (still is) with the community, that this is a little...different.

[Nozybidaj]

Talon_Wu wrote...
Ah, yes. Ashley on Horizon. To me, a character treatment second only to Liara's. To get exactly the same reaction from her, no matter what you say in your (limited) conversation options, is just...wrong. If I say "I'm working for Cerberus now," I should get "WTF Shepard" as a response. If I say, "I was dead/unconscious for two years, I would still be dead if not for them, and you would be on that Collector ship if I were dead. I do not have to like or trust them to save the galaxy in their snazzy new ship. QED," a reasonable response should be, "I don't like it, but you were my friend and commander, never let me down, and, in fact, saved my life. I will hold off on ripping you a new one."

I assume most of it was cost cutting and just taking short cuts in development.  Pretty much all "choices" led to the exact same outcome in ME2.  You could choose to be Paragon or Renegade with, like in your example, Ashley but that didn't effect the outcome, didn't effect the dialogue, didn't change anything really.

There was nothing like in ME1 where you meet Shiala, Paragon lets her live and help the colony while Renegade makes her get down on her knees while you put a bullet in her head.  Or the Rachni Queen, again Paragon lets her live, renegade you kill her.  Each of those options required different dialogue to be recorded, different animations, different digital acting sequences.  Almost all of that variety was removed in ME2 except for less than a handful of "key" choices like the collector base or the two squadmate arguments.

Having different outcomes depending on your choices means more development, more dialogue, etc.  So they just cut all of that out.  No matter what Shepard "decides" to do everything comes out exactly the same in the end.

[Nozybidaj]

Talon_Wu wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
LOL well I highly doubt folks like Mac and Casey do much perusing of the forums.  I imagine for the most part Mac and the rest of BW would care less if we nerd raged for weeks afterwards.  And its not like any of the mods are gonna "pass it along".

Would at least get it out of my system.

That's the weirdest thing I've noticed about these ME2 forums. No mods, no devs. I've spent so much time in the DAO forums, where the lead writers and the rest of the devs posted with regularity, and there was interaction (still is) with the community, that this is a little...different.

Well, DA:O was really well done, folks for the most part were very happy with the way things turned out.  There is no reason the DA:O writers should have had any hesitation to participate in the community.  It also seems they actually care what people think of the story and the characters.

If Mac or Casey actually came and posted something, anything, in the Liara thread you would get 10 pages of rage faster than people can bump a Tali thread.  Also, from the way the ME1 LI's were sidelined and given overtly negative representations, its pretty clear they don't care what the fans were going to think of it.

[raz3r]

I really agree with the OP, I WANT Liara back on ME2 with DLC, she deserves this.

[bjdbwea]

As far as DA is concerned: You're right about the developer participation, they even started some threads asking for people's opinions. The game really wasn't perfect either, but apart from missing proper in-game descriptions and unsatisfyingly short epilogues it didn't have major flaws. At least the developers discussed those issues too, insufficient as their reasoning was in my opinion. On the other hand, DA didn't have a predecessor. Since the recent developments of no romances and no DLC item transfer in Awakening, it seems the developers haven't been exactly vocal either. Apparently the preferred reaction from BioWare to criticism is silence, and hoping that people will continue to buy anyway. Well, we'll see about that.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 février 2010 - 05:36 .

[Nozybidaj]

Littledoom wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...
Exactly why they don't post that much anymore. I'd be afraid too 

They only have them self to blame for that in my opinion, but maybe I'm just full of black blood and hate :innocent:

Agreed they only have themselves to blame.  In the future, whoever it was that decided it was a good idea to remove the ME1 LI's from the sequel should be kept as far away from anything to do with making video games, or any other form of entertainment media, as humanly possible.