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[Mox Ruuga]

Intresting thread to read in retrospect, from the old forums, Patrick Weekes talking about the writing of ME2:

http://meforums.biow...&forum=144&sp=0

Look for his posts throughout.

The Liara bit:

Liara: Liara is, like Tali, the voice of innocence and intelligence. She was a great geek, and while some have derided her as a blue biotic schoolgirl, a lot of people liked that character. She's also a character that we couldn't have had without Ashley. You need the maturity along with the innocence, the hard edges along with the slightly embarrassed goofiness.

Liara's biggest obstacle was that she had to wear two hats -- the romance hat and the all-about-asari hat. One of our biggest learning experiences has been trying to separate those things out -- when possible, the romances aren't people you have to Codex your way through conversations with, and where not possible, things are separated out more clearly, so that somebody who wants to find out more about the person but doesn't care at all about that person's culture can do so.

He finished off talking about ME1 chars with this:

I really liked all of these characters, and, well, I'm looking forward to seeing how you like what's become of them in ME2.

LOL!

Oh well, I'm sure the Tali and Garrus fans were happy enough with Bioware... Sure haven't seen any devs mentioning Liara, Ash, or Kaidan even by accident after the release...

[Sharn01]

I am very tired, I hope he was going for sarcasm the multiple times he called himself the Micheal Bay of writer's.

[Mossa_missa]

If Feron steals my Liara im going to get all renegade on him... And be a wery sad Shepard

Liara is the main reson my Shepard is fighting so hard.

Modifié par Mossa_missa, 24 février 2010 - 09:12 .

[WilliamShatner]

My favorite character is not one that I wrote. And even for my non-favorite characters -- Subject Zero isn't a character I'd ever have on my squad unless I really needed the biotics, for example

I like Mr. Weekes even more!



I have a feeling if he was lead writer things would be different in a big and good way.

[Nozybidaj]

WilliamShatner wrote...

My favorite character is not one that I wrote. And even for my non-favorite characters -- Subject Zero isn't a character I'd ever have on my squad unless I really needed the biotics, for example

I like Mr. Weekes even more!

I have a feeling if he was lead writer things would be different in a big and good way.

I don't disagree, but really the person that made the decision "the ME1 LI's MUST be removed from the game in the most negative light possible" is really the one to blame.  Was it the writers?  Was it the project leads?  Was it EA?  We'll never know, but that is the person(s) that needed replaced.  Though Mac sure seems to be taking pleasure in doing what he can to ruin any remaining trace of the old Liara.

I'd be all for having Mr. Weekes play a larger role in the writing, especially for Liara.  If he was the one that did the majority of work on Tali in ME2 he should be applauded.  Though I would still prefer to see Drew return and given the reigns as ME1 overall just had a much more cohesive story from begining to end.

I get the impression that whatever Drew's original vision for the second chapter of the trilogy was it got chopped up and discarded pretty thoroughly to make way for the "suicide mission" format of ME2.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 24 février 2010 - 03:21 .

[Sigilius]

That article made me sick. He understood what we liked about Liara, and then, using traditional BioWare thinking, obviously went the complete opposite way. It annoys me to no end.



But relating to the Wikipedia article, that is a direct quote from Mac. They really can't screw that up. It's word-for-word, and regardless, it's nice to think that something good will come of the comics. And when Wiki says one year for the release of ME3, I think they mean in 2011, as a blanket statement. Which could mean the late-2011 release we're looking at.



But that doesn't matter. What matters is that Mac wrote what was written in that quote. It gives me hope for Liara expansions, and really, why should I doubt hope?



And I still despise Feron as a character, since he's so two-dimensional and dull. He can't have stolen Liara away from Shepard. She's not brain-dead, she's a very intelligent woman. And she's still very much in love with Shepard. I like to think the innocent asari we all knew in ME1 is still very much alive, she's just hiding behind the whole badass exterior as a means to an end. She says herself that she wants to talk to Shepard, but can't on Illium. Everything she does say to us is all she CAN say, and so I'm hoping that when we get her away from that hellish place, she'll be able to emerge from her shell again.

[Annjul666]

They screwed up defnitely Liara.

Hell, no email or explanation, just the line 'im busy trying to kill shadow broker". i can understand moving on or living for a revenge but this situation wasnt solved. if she really cared for shepard, she would go with us. priorities.

and all her Benezia behaviour.... damn, maybe she got so cold because of Shepard death? or bioware got some opininons that she's too sweet or something.

i dont get it why they gave us more Ash than her- maybe its because a little canon of mass effect. when we chose the new game with their character, shepard was with ashley..

maybe they just put her aside, treating her like she is not important character. it seems that the chances liara will be in me3 are very small.

BW totally screwed it up, but i do not mind, in fact. my shepard treats her like she was just a naive crush. now he is with Miri ^^



anyway, bioware could do something more than just do a mission for her and leave with "i will talk to you later". weird.

[WilliamShatner]

Nozybidaj wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

My favorite character is not one that I wrote. And even for my non-favorite characters -- Subject Zero isn't a character I'd ever have on my squad unless I really needed the biotics, for example

I like Mr. Weekes even more!

I have a feeling if he was lead writer things would be different in a big and good way.

I don't disagree, but really the person that made the decision "the ME1 LI's MUST be removed from the game in the most negative light possible" is really the one to blame.  Was it the writers?  Was it the project leads?  Was it EA?  We'll never know, but that is the person(s) that needed replaced.  Though Mac sure seems to be taking pleasure in doing what he can to ruin any remaining trace of the old Liara.

I'd be all for having Mr. Weekes play a larger role in the writing, especially for Liara.  If he was the one that did the majority of work on Tali in ME2 he should be applauded.  Though I would still prefer to see Drew return and given the reigns as ME1 overall just had a much more cohesive story from begining to end.

I get the impression that whatever Drew's original vision for the second chapter of the trilogy was it got chopped up and discarded pretty thoroughly to make way for the "suicide mission" format of ME2.

It seems to me that Weekes gets why characters work and wants develops them rather than putting them on the chopping block.

Also he's a self-proclaimed paladin player so I doubt we would get the trying to be dark nonsense in ME2.

I hope he gets the lead writing job on some game soon.  I'll put down money on that in a heartbeat.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 24 février 2010 - 03:32 .

[Ulicus]

Nozybidaj wrote...

I get the impression that whatever Drew's original vision for the second chapter of the trilogy was it got chopped up and discarded pretty thoroughly to make way for the "suicide mission" format of ME2.

I don't think he left anywhere near early enough for that to be the case, on his website he said he'd already written the ME2 story at the time he left and he was still contributing even once down in Austin.

I can't double check at this point because it seems 2009 is missing from his site's archives.

[Mox Ruuga]

WilliamShatner wrote...

It seems to me that Weekes gets why characters work and wants develops them rather than putting them on the chopping block.

Also he's a self-proclaimed paladin player so I doubt we would get the trying to be dark nonsense in ME2.

I hope he gets the lead writing job on some game soon.  I'll put down money on that in a heartbeat.

From reading the thread I posted, it looks like Chris L'Etoile wrote not only much of the compelling and plausible "lore" of ME1, but some of the best character stuff as well. "I Remember Me" was one of the emotional high points of the first game. And Noveria was my favorite "mission world", with many of the better side characters as well...

And now, like Drew, he too is gone from the team. Can Weekes hold back the tide of bad writing and GrimDark all by himself?

[tonnactus]

They should hire Uwe Boll.Even he could do it better.Collectors as Protheans.Ah,yes...

[Segameister]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I don't normally create rant topics like this, but wth?

Granted, all the ME1 love interests all got the extremely short end of the stick, but why is Liara so far behind what even Kaidan and Ashley get? It's asinine.

The only unique things a Liara romancer gets is Liara's picture on your desk (meaningless), and an awkwardly shot "kiss" upon entering her office. After that "kiss" it makes no difference to anything whether or not you romanced Liara, and absolutely nothing is said about it. It almost feels as if BioWare completely forgot that Liara was romanceable and threw together that awkward "kiss" as an "Oh, ****!" moment.

If you romanced Kaidan or Ashley, though, you actually get content pertaining to the romance...

1) You can tell Kelly how you feel about Kaidan/Ashley.
This isn't much, admittedly, but it acknowledges the romance and your Shepard's stance. It gives you the opportunity to voice how you feel about your ME1 love interest. You can tell Kelly that it was 2 years ago and things are over, essentially breaking up with them. Or you can tell Kelly that you still have feelings for them, which solidifies your Shepard's feelings and gives you hope that you might reunite. There are also other options in that convo to voice your Shep's opinion about the ME1 LI.  So why doesn't Liara have one of these conversations? Why can't Shepard tell anyone how she feels about Liara? Why is it swept under the rug so completely?

2) Kaidan and Ashley send you an email.
This isn't much either, just a few paragraphs, but it is way more than Liara fans get. Kaidan's email tells your Shepard how he felt about your night together and how he feels about you. I assume Ashley's is the same, though I've not read the actual email. These emails further the relationship acknowledgment, regardless. They say that your ME1 LI still cares a lot for Shepard, and goes towards giving the player hope that the relationship isn't over.
Where's Liara's email? You couldn't write three paragraphs from Liara that says something similar? What the hell? Liara fans get absolutely nothing!


Unless the rumors about Liara DLC are true and there is something in that episode dealing with the romance, then what am I supposed to think about my Liara romance? There's absolutely 0 acknowledgment of it in game other than the meaningless photo and the awkward "kiss" scene. Why is her romance completely unvoiced by everyone, including Liara AND Shepard?!

Hopefully the shoddy treatment of ME1 LI's in ME2 doesn't hint at how crappy they will be in ME3. At this point I expect complete and utter failure at giving us any sense of fulfillment.

I'd suggest watching it again - I believe Liara's reaction is very deliberate and designed to be so on purpose.  Watch the 'kiss' scene again, and you'll notice enthusiasm to strike up the relationship again, then she cuts the kiss short and shakes her head.  I see this act as Liara saying to herself "I can't think about my relationship feelings right now, I've got to stay focused on finding the shadow broker and take his head off".  Whatever happened (4 issue comic series I'm sure will explain it) has her SERIOUSLY pissed off.  Her total focus is needed for the task to get the shadow broker, so she's staying on target.

IMHO, all the main characters from ME1 (except possibly Kaiden/Ashley due to limited talk time with them) had gone on with their lives and grown / evolved.  Just because they were part of Shepards team, they still have their own lives to lead, especially if they thought he was dead.  In Wrex, Ashley/Kaiden & Liara's cases, they see their current work as a bigger responsibility than joing Shepard again - for the moment.  I believe the work that Kaiden/Ashley, Wrex, and Liara are doing in ME2 that keeps them from joining Shepard again will have big influences in ME3.  They may be direct members of Shepard's team in ME3, but their involvement will be very important in the fight against the reapers.

Modifié par Segameister, 24 février 2010 - 07:02 .

[wolf99000]

Segameister wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I don't normally create rant topics like this, but wth?

Granted, all the ME1 love interests all got the extremely short end of the stick, but why is Liara so far behind what even Kaidan and Ashley get? It's asinine.

The only unique things a Liara romancer gets is Liara's picture on your desk (meaningless), and an awkwardly shot "kiss" upon entering her office. After that "kiss" it makes no difference to anything whether or not you romanced Liara, and absolutely nothing is said about it. It almost feels as if BioWare completely forgot that Liara was romanceable and threw together that awkward "kiss" as an "Oh, ****!" moment.

If you romanced Kaidan or Ashley, though, you actually get content pertaining to the romance...

1) You can tell Kelly how you feel about Kaidan/Ashley.
This isn't much, admittedly, but it acknowledges the romance and your Shepard's stance. It gives you the opportunity to voice how you feel about your ME1 love interest. You can tell Kelly that it was 2 years ago and things are over, essentially breaking up with them. Or you can tell Kelly that you still have feelings for them, which solidifies your Shepard's feelings and gives you hope that you might reunite. There are also other options in that convo to voice your Shep's opinion about the ME1 LI.  So why doesn't Liara have one of these conversations? Why can't Shepard tell anyone how she feels about Liara? Why is it swept under the rug so completely?

2) Kaidan and Ashley send you an email.
This isn't much either, just a few paragraphs, but it is way more than Liara fans get. Kaidan's email tells your Shepard how he felt about your night together and how he feels about you. I assume Ashley's is the same, though I've not read the actual email. These emails further the relationship acknowledgment, regardless. They say that your ME1 LI still cares a lot for Shepard, and goes towards giving the player hope that the relationship isn't over.
Where's Liara's email? You couldn't write three paragraphs from Liara that says something similar? What the hell? Liara fans get absolutely nothing!


Unless the rumors about Liara DLC are true and there is something in that episode dealing with the romance, then what am I supposed to think about my Liara romance? There's absolutely 0 acknowledgment of it in game other than the meaningless photo and the awkward "kiss" scene. Why is her romance completely unvoiced by everyone, including Liara AND Shepard?!

Hopefully the shoddy treatment of ME1 LI's in ME2 doesn't hint at how crappy they will be in ME3. At this point I expect complete and utter failure at giving us any sense of fulfillment.

I'd suggest watching it again - I believe Liara's reaction is very deliberate and designed to be so on purpose.  Watch the 'kiss' scene again, and you'll notice enthusiasm to strike up the relationship again, then she cuts the kiss short and shakes her head.  I see this act as Liara saying to herself "I can't think about my relationship feelings right now, I've got to stay focused on finding the shadow broker and take his head off".  Whatever happened (4 issue comic series I'm sure will explain it) has her SERIOUSLY pissed off.  Her total focus is needed for the task to get the shadow broker, so she's staying on target.

IMHO, all the main characters from ME1 (except possibly Kaiden/Ashley due to limited talk time with them) had gone on with their lives and grown / evolved.  Just because they were part of Shepards team, they still have their own lives to lead, especially if they thought he was dead.  In Wrex, Ashley/Kaiden & Liara's cases, they see their current work as a bigger responsibility than joing Shepard again - for the moment.  I believe the work that Kaiden/Ashley, Wrex, and Liara are doing in ME2 that keeps them from joining Shepard again will have big influences in ME3.  They may be direct members of Shepard's team in ME3, but their involvement will be very important in the fight against the reapers.

the only problem I see with that is that she says in the game she could not move on without you with the other wrex ash and kaiden yea maybe but you never really got a sense what there life was like in the 2 years you were dead it was more you are alive and with cerberus thats wrong goodbye then an email saying sorry you dont even get that with liara

[wolf99000]

back on the feron thing I would rather they go that they had kids and shepard does not know like we talked about a few pages back and the sb kidnapped them hell if we are going full soap opera why not go all the way lol

[Nozybidaj]

wolf99000 wrote...

back on the feron thing I would rather they go that they had kids and shepard does not know like we talked about a few pages back and the sb kidnapped them hell if we are going full soap opera why not go all the way lol

Wouldn't that be a little ackward for all the Shep's that romanced Ash/Kaidan?

[yoomazir]

Sharn01 wrote...

I am very tired, I hope he was going for sarcasm the multiple times he called himself the Micheal Bay of writer's.

he did say that? shoot him on sight !

[JPfanner]

There'd be a lot less headaches all around if Liara was just super busy on Ilos instead of all the comics induced drama that we have to guess at <sigh>

[Nozybidaj]

JPfanner wrote...

There'd be a lot less headaches all around if Liara was just super busy on Ilos instead of all the comics induced drama that we have to guess at

Agreed, that was kinda where I always expected to find her.  

[Sigilius]

JPfanner wrote...

There'd be a lot less headaches all around if Liara was just super busy on Ilos instead of all the comics induced drama that we have to guess at

That would have been so cool! Revisit Ilos, meet up with good old Liara doing some of her best geeking out while excavating a Prothean ruin, looking for something to help in the fight against the Reapers! That would have been excellent. Besides, she wouldn't have had to hide her sweet personality behind that icy exterior that so pissed all of us off.

Even so, they can still salvage this. That is the word to choose when thinking about Liara's place in Mass Effect: salvagable. Her role can be saved, and she can still come full-circle and do everything we've ever dreamed of, if it is in the hands of a capable writer. I only hope Mr. Weekes can handle such a responsibility. They should offer Drew a double raise in salary to come back, or something! He's way too valuable to lose. And I don't think he'll be able to pour his heart and soul into some other stupid venture. He's a writer: and writers grow attached to their work, their characters. They don't just whip them out and abandon them once another job comes along. At least, that's what I think.

Still keeping my fingers crossed for Liara expansions to come. My heart is set on April, when the Redemption comics conclude, and any DLC they have waiting for us will be released.

[Fjordgnu]

Yeah, I was surprised by Liara's change, but to suggest this is some sort of heresy is going too far, too soon, and not seeing the big picture. Having the same character, with the exact same personality and no meaningful development through three games, would have made for a far less satisfying story. If, on the other hand, she makes some sort of return - something every person with Liara's picture on their desk is waiting for - that would work, that would be grand, that would be meaningful, and far more enjoyable than having a straight, unbroken line from A to Z.



Shepard has a magnetic, even dangerous personality, but he's not the absolute center of all things, and even if Liara is acting the way she is for Shepard's sake, or at least because of him, that's still no reason for her to abandon everything and go with him. That might also have put her in a dangerous position, don't you think?

[Driveninhifi]

Well, it's not really her reaction that is off. It's the fact that Shepard's reactions are. He/she was just told that the woman(asari?) he/she loves went through hell to recover the body, and has felt horribly guilty about it for a long time. The player really isn't given a natural reaction to that - there needs to be something different (other than "my mission is important) if she's the love interest. Since they both know Shepard is heading out on a suicide mission, it's extremely hard to believe neither character would say anything.

But, yes, something that's lost in a lot of interactions (in game even) is that Shepard is pretty much the most dangerous individual in the galaxy.  Maybe people like the Shadow Broker are more dangerous because of their resources, but think about quickly Shepard gets things done and how long his/her enemies tend to live.
It's also pretty disingenuous for Shepard to be able to convince people like the Asari corporate person on Ilium to change their ways (the thorian side effect thing), but not someone who clearly loves him/her.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 25 février 2010 - 12:19 .

[wolf99000]

part of me thinks this will not all end well as there is so much for them to end if this is truely the last ever game in the shepard story I mean you have the reapers talis people going to war with the geth the geth joining legions side thats not even counting the im the sb and I am sure there will be stuff your crew will need doing ash and the rest unless they make a massive game I am not sure where they are going to fix all this

plus do you think we will even get a happy ending with are LI who ever they are I have a feeling we could see Shepard dieing to finish of the reapers or vanishing in some heroic way

Modifié par wolf99000, 25 février 2010 - 03:45 .

[Driveninhifi]

It's the end of the trilogy - I'd expect there's an option to finish it off well. They can deal with the Shadow Broker in DLC. The rest of it can happen during ME3 - remember that ME3 doesn't have to have the structure of ME2. Most of the missions in ME2 are recruitment missions. ME3 doesn't have to be that way. Sure maybe you recruit Ash/Kaidan and Liara at the beginning, but the thrust of the game has to be fighting/stopping the invasion. The Quarian politics can play into this no problem. The Geth and Rachni can be allies.

[Sigilius]

I've been doing some thinking at length:



What I've found, surprisingly, is that Liara fans are absolutely set.



She's already going to have a Shadow-Broker related huge role in DLC or ME3 (DLC preferrably), but that isn't the half of it. I came across an interview from Casey on Google and, while Casey's words have been... unreliable in the past, he did state quite specifically that Mass Effect 1 LI's will be returning in, and I quote, "Huge" roles in ME3, and that your cheating/non-cheating decisions will be a major part of the romance (No surpise there), and, over all, the story itself. LI's in general are going to find themselves a critical factor in Mass Effect 3.



And, to top it off, he said that, although it would be easier to bring in a whole new crew for ME3, again, that they're committed to bringing in your customizable universes and different character combinations (With Liara guaranteed attention and favor, since she is the ONLY party member from EITHER game that simply CANNOT be killed!). This leaves me feeling strangely hopeful, and I'm looking forward to the conclusion of the comics in April so any potential DLCs or, dare I say, expansions can come out of the woodworks.



Liara forever!

[Inquisitor Recon]

Somebody got a picture of Liara giving you the crazy eye when you meet her?