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[Giant ambush beetle]

@ David Gaider

I like to think of Awakening like Baldurs Gate II expansion Throne of Bhaal, it was fairly short, the storyline was dense, the action was marvelous, level design outstanding, OST fabulous, overall atmosphere and setting exciting. Each hour of TOB was worth three hours of the original Baldurs Gate II. As far as I remember play time was around 20 hours which was IMO perfect.



I really hope Awakening will play a similar role.

[spark420]

make it DA2 shorter and they will not come. (most of the non-fanboys) because the game should be shorter so we can match the price of the dlc is kinda messed up.

[David Gaider]

The Woldan wrote...
@ David Gaider
I like to think of Awakening like Baldurs Gate II expansion Throne of Bhaal, it was fairly short, the storyline was dense, the action was marvelous, level design outstanding, OST fabulous, overall atmosphere and setting exciting. Each hour of TOB was worth three hours of the original Baldurs Gate II. As far as I remember play time was around 20 hours which was IMO perfect.

I really hope Awakening will play a similar role.

Whereas I would say that Throne of Bhaal was massively oversized for an expansion. Definitely worth the value, without question, but if you're using that as your baseline then you are probably raising your expectations a bit high. Throne of Bhaal was originally intended to be BG3.

spark420 wrote...
make it D2 shorter and they will not come. (most of the non-fanboys) because the game should be shorter so we can match the price of the dlc is kinda messed up.

If you're saying that the logic that suggests the price of DLC should directly match up with the length of the original game is messed up -- then yes. Yes, I agree.

Modifié par David Gaider, 08 février 2010 - 08:52 .

[spark420]

from gaider - If you're worried, then don't pre-order. It you're confident that you'll enjoy it no matter what the length, then pre-order. We're not side-stepping anything -- we haven't discussed much about the expansion yet at all. If you honestly can't wait to get the info you feel you require, then I'm sorry but you've no-one to blame but yourself.

[DJ0000]

20 hours, massively oversized. Well that brings my expectations way down. I would think 20 hours would be about perfect personally.

Considering the price, I would say 10-15 hours would be too small. If it's less than that I would be incredibly dissappointed. More DA is better than no DA though : )

Modifié par DJ0000, 08 février 2010 - 09:03 .

[fluffyamoeba]

Do you think, honestly, that if DA had been 40 hours instead of 60, it would have made any difference to how many people bought it? If anything, as David Gaider said, a slightly shorter game would have made the story pacing better, which was a common criticism in its reviews.



Only sandbox RPGs are longer than DAO. And they're only longer because they fill the areas between plot locations with content-light areas that haven't had much time spent on them. Oh and by making you jump around the world picking flowers.

[flem1]

David Gaider wrote...

a) Awakening is an expansion, not a full game. Nor is it intended to be.

And yet it's priced like one.

[Giant ambush beetle]

DJ0000 wrote...

20 hours, massively oversized. Well that brings my expectations way down. I would think 20 hours would be about perfect personally.

ATTENTION - my fault, I just checked and the TOB Dungeon ''Watchers keep'' is rated as 15-20 hours, the main storyline of TOB is rated at 25-30 up to 40 hours. Sorry for the confusion, I got things mixed up. Check the IGN TOB review for further information. 

http://pc.ign.com/ar...5/165962p1.html


And there are two things which could be ''massively oversized'', playing time & game content. 

Modifié par The Woldan , 08 février 2010 - 09:23 .

[DJ0000]

The Woldan wrote...

DJ0000 wrote...

20 hours, massively oversized. Well that brings my expectations way down. I would think 20 hours would be about perfect personally.

ATTENTION - my fault, I just checked and the TOB Dungeon ''Watchers keep'' is rated as 15-20 hours, the main storyline of TOB is rated at 25-30 up to 40 hours. Sorry for the confusion, I got things mixed up. Check the IGN TOB review for further information. 

http://pc.ign.com/ar...5/165962p1.html


And there are two things which could be ''massively oversized'', playing time & game content. 

Thanks for the clarification. You had me really disappointed for a few minutes there.

[JKJEDIKNIGHT]

I'm not overly sold on whether I'm going to purchase Awakenings to say the truth. While I had been waiting several years for Origins, I'm not someone that is really sold on the effectiveness of "expansion" packs. At least not at it's current price. I can just justify spending $5 for a small addition to the game such as RtO and WK. But seriously, $40 for an expansion? That's almost the price of a completely new game. Let's look at all the other games that come out in March which I could pay just a "little" bit more for, and be assured I would get WAY more than 15-20 hours from. Final Fantasy XIII, Battlefield, MLB 10, Resonance of Fate, God of War III, Red Steal II. That's just March. And while I don't rate "time of play" as being my determining factor when purchasing video games, but it is a minor factor. Purchasing DA:A will be a "release date decision" for me. And I'm sure no one at BIOWARE really cares, because I'm "just one customer", but that is my peace. Lower the price to $20 and I guarantee I'm in.

[Kats_RK]

JKJEDIKNIGHT wrote...

I'm not overly sold on whether I'm going to purchase Awakenings to say the truth. While I had been waiting several years for Origins, I'm not someone that is really sold on the effectiveness of "expansion" packs. At least not at it's current price. I can just justify spending $5 for a small addition to the game such as RtO and WK. But seriously, $40 for an expansion? That's almost the price of a completely new game. Let's look at all the other games that come out in March which I could pay just a "little" bit more for, and be assured I would get WAY more than 15-20 hours from. Final Fantasy XIII, Battlefield, MLB 10, Resonance of Fate, God of War III, Red Steal II. That's just March. And while I don't rate "time of play" as being my determining factor when purchasing video games, but it is a minor factor. Purchasing DA:A will be a "release date decision" for me. And I'm sure no one at BIOWARE really cares, because I'm "just one customer", but that is my peace. Lower the price to $20 and I guarantee I'm in.

Assassins Creed 2 was 20 hours of gameplay & well worth the money
Awakening $40 is good enough for me.

[drake heath]

Shavon wrote...

How long are expansion packs generally? I've never bought one from Bioware or anywhere else, really. I'm assuming rather than the typical 3 or four major missions befor ethe final mission pattern Bioware typically goes in their games, the expansion is a couple of missions and the fianl, or a series of little ones? Am I on the right track in expecting this?

Depends, If they are full blown expansions then they can be huge with several quests and other stuff, like a small game.

[DPB]

Shavon wrote...

How long are expansion packs generally? I've never bought one from Bioware or anywhere else, really. I'm assuming rather than the typical 3 or four major missions befor ethe final mission pattern Bioware typically goes in their games, the expansion is a couple of missions and the fianl, or a series of little ones? Am I on the right track in expecting this?

Tales of the Sword Coast ~ 20 hours
Throne of Bhaal >30 hours
Shadows of Undrentide ~ 15 hours
Hordes of the Underdark ~ 25 hours

[EvilIguana966]

Ferret A Baudoin wrote...

I'm honestly a little puzzled by some folks obsession with game length. What seems more important are: Did I have a ripping good time? Did it tell a tell a gripping tale that I got lost in? I hope the answers for Awakening will be "yes" to both. And game length is a bloody tough thing to gauge - some folks can finish Origins in 24 hours and some 240 hours. That's a factor of 10 difference.

Plan on having a good time and a chance to get lost in Ferelden again. Your gameplay length mileage will vary.

Obfuscation.  It does not matter that some people play faster than others, or that some people play the campaign multiple times.  We are talking about the average player, that magnificent everyman whose interests and abilities represent a perfect compromise between the two extremes.  Or if you don't like that guy, choose the guy who spent 24 hours, or even 240, on the original game, and tell us how long you'd expect that guy to finish the expansion.  If the guy who took 24 hours on Origins takes 15 hours on awakening then I'd say this expansion is easily on track with the base game in terms of value.  But if a guy like me who spent 50-60 hours per character can expect to spend 15 hours on the expansion, my feelings will be very different. 

One thing nobody is arguing about is quality.  Bioware simply does not make bad games.  I have no doubt that Awakening will meet the highest standards in terms of quality.  But are you ready to say that this game is going to be 3 times as entertaining per hour of game as Origins was?  Because that's roughly what it would have to be if you are claiming parity with the base game for 15 hours of play. 

You guys seem to be assuming that you did us a favor by releasing such an awesome game for such a great price with DA:O, and that we should repay you for that by purchasing addons that aren't early as good a deal.  But from a consumer perspective we already paid you back.  You said "We made this game and we'll let you play it if you give us $50" and we said "sweet, here you go" and went off to enjoy yourselves.  You can definitely make the argument that you deserve more than $50 for that sale.  Given that over the past 20 years development costs have risen greatly and game prices have stayed static amidst continuing inflation, I think you would have a good argument.  But that really doesn't matter, because you chose the price and we already made the deal.  The expansion pack is a different deal entirely, and it will be compared to other deals over other games and succeed or fail on its own virtues.

If you want to argue that we ought to continue supporting you because of how much fun we had with Origins, go ahead and say that.  But be honest about it and don't try to confuse us about the length of the expansion so we think we are getting more or less the same amount of game for our money if we really aren't. 

[Harcken]

As long as the story is great, and I can play through multiple times with different choices and a different import; I'll probably enjoy it. The only thing I'm worried about a 15 hour length, is, we can probably assume at least 5-8 of those hours will be combat... so... how much is left for the story? Will it feel rushed and extremely fast-paced? I hope not.

My hope/perfect model for the expansion pack would be NWN 2's Mask of the Betrayer. If memory serves me, that was around 15-20 hours, with the perfect amount of combat combined with an amazing story.

Modifié par Harcken, 08 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[aries1001]

I have to add that I never have completed Tales of the Sword Coast in under 40-50 hours, I think. But then, again, I'm a completionist. And Throne of Bhaal have taken me at least 60 hours so far, I think. The average player can probably finish Throne of Bhaal in about 30-40 hours time, I'd guess.



I don't know if, DA: Origins would have been a better game had it been a bit shorter. Maybe not, I find. Maybe the origins stories could have been sized down a bit? Then, again, they do sort of set the tone for the story in the whole game. From the reviews, I've seen, they all seem to mention that especially the deep roads quest-libe could have used bit of trimming and grooming...



The 15 hours for Awakening (the expansion) is probably? the average time a player takes to finish it. On the other hand, one of Bioware's bosses have said that he had over 100+ hours in Dragon Age: Origins when he finished it. (he's a completionist, it seems).



My personal view about the length of games is this:

The days of the 80-100 hour games are over. I, personally, don't have time for these games anymore. I might have maybe 20-40 minutes a day, sometimes an entire hour, to play games. In the weekends, I might have maybe 1½ hour to play games in one sitting. I would rather have a good quality game that lasts me for about 30-40 hours (maybe 40-60 hours), if it is very good game.

Then again, I don't want games as short as Modern Warfare 2 or Uncharted 2; they are, I guess, 8-10 hours at best? An ordinary game as short as 15-20 hours for an rpg, I would not want either, I think. However, for an adventure game (like Syberia, Runaway or Monkey Island), I'd easily accept a game that is maybe 10-12 hours long, and a 15-20 hour long adventure game is extra fine and OK. So it depends on the genre, too, I find.



To sum up:

For an rpg, I'd be fine with a game that is somewhere between 40-60 hours in length on average.

[Dragon Age1103]

Even if the 15 hours is accurate I am certain I will still be very pleased simply b/c 40-60 hours was the estimate from DA:O reviews & I got 80 so I should be able to get 20 or more out of 15. I'm sure Awakening will hold tons of new content, I still think the price is a joke but I mean Bioware needs money just like everyone else that is why we're getting a junk star wars MMO aimed at kiddies instead of a real title like a 2nd KotOR.

Point being 15 hours or more=me being one happy GW!

$40 a little bit of a downer but oh well EA is in the game now I expect to get milked for all my money.

[rogue1983]

they made 7 million off of the first dlc warden's keep the first week. I doubt they are charging 40 for the xpac because dragon age has a smaller fan base now. but with the way they treat their customers it wouldn't be too surprising.but like gaider says buy it or don't -it seems they really don't care- I am really leaning towards don't just becuase of the shady time-frame. It has me thinking the average player will get 8 hours or less and that time frame is alright if it was a pure action game. until bioware spill the beans about the time or I read a review I will have to be content with hour long add on's and the core game. it's a very sad day especially with DA2 being pushed out early next year.

Modifié par rogue1983, 09 février 2010 - 12:37 .

[JKJEDIKNIGHT]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

Even if the 15 hours is accurate I am certain I will still be very pleased simply b/c 40-60 hours was the estimate from DA:O reviews & I got 80 so I should be able to get 20 or more out of 15. I'm sure Awakening will hold tons of new content, I still think the price is a joke but I mean Bioware needs money just like everyone else that is why we're getting a junk star wars MMO aimed at kiddies instead of a real title like a 2nd KotOR.
Point being 15 hours or more=me being one happy GW!
$40 a little bit of a downer but oh well EA is in the game now I expect to get milked for all my money.

HA, I SOOOOO agree with the comment about Old Republic.  I wonder, was any research done on the ability of Star Wars MMO's?  How did Galaxies fare?  Modest at best.  Obviously Old Republic is just a cash cow designed to milk that franchise into the ground and capitalize on the popularity of the KOTOR series.  They know the fan boys will buy, and hope that they will seduce a few thousand duped based on their love of the original KOTOR titles.  Then factor in how much you're going to be charged to play the game online for any length of time after you purchase the 59.99 title.  And what do you have?  Massive cash cow.  But back to the subject at hand.  Game length.  Some games can get by with shorter game length, such as games that can be played MULTIPLAYER, such as the Call of Duty games, or Gears of War, etc.  RPG's have to get by on story telling, character development, and content.  And by content I mean things to do in the game that keeps the player engulfed in the game.  Replayability is also a factor.  While I do not doubt that Awakening will have an enormous amount of replayability, simply based on the fact that you can import a character, so in a sense that ability alone makes it so you could play it through at least 6 different ways.  So I suppose if you factor that into the play length of 15 per, it makes the game 60+.  But I think that's a stretch.  I think I'd rather have a deep enough story and enough side quest things to do that create the replayability than recycling characters from my previous game.  Because I highly doubt that there will really be THAT much difference from the characters that I import.  It would seem to me that certain aspects are going to be there, so the difference between playthroughs will be moderate at best.  However, if I am wrong, I will certainly eat those words, no questions asked.  But I question how much character development and story telling can be put into a game that only comes out at 15 hours play time?  The amount of dialogue in DA:O was probably around 10 hours.  Is DA:A going to be so fast paced that plot, character development, and story telling will get lost in the fray?  I also can't think of any RPG's that were decent and only clocked out at 15 hours.  Realistically, how much story and character development can you put into a game that long?  What kind of RPG is this going to be if that's the case?  Certainly not one worth $40 I think.  What I'd like to see is some minigame similar to that of the card game in Final Fantasy VIII, or Blitzball which was used in Final Fantasy X.  Those minigames alone game me dozens of hours of play time in those games.  Which lacked in DA:O, and I'm sure at this point, will lack in DA:A.  All that said, I'm still a "release day maybe buyer" for DA:A.

[Chokra Broodslayer]

JKJEDIKNIGHT wrote...

I'm not overly sold on whether I'm going to purchase Awakenings to say the truth. While I had been waiting several years for Origins, I'm not someone that is really sold on the effectiveness of "expansion" packs. At least not at it's current price. I can just justify spending $5 for a small addition to the game such as RtO and WK. But seriously, $40 for an expansion? That's almost the price of a completely new game. Let's look at all the other games that come out in March which I could pay just a "little" bit more for, and be assured I would get WAY more than 15-20 hours from. Final Fantasy XIII, Battlefield, MLB 10, Resonance of Fate, God of War III, Red Steal II. That's just March. And while I don't rate "time of play" as being my determining factor when purchasing video games, but it is a minor factor. Purchasing DA:A will be a "release date decision" for me. And I'm sure no one at BIOWARE really cares, because I'm "just one customer", but that is my peace. Lower the price to $20 and I guarantee I'm in.

But will you be able to expand and further develop a character you've already invested 60+ hours in?

Honestly, none of those games you listed appeal to me. The only one there I would even consider dabbling with would be Final Fantasy XIII and it's doubtful I would even buy it -- I lost interest in that franchise a LONG time ago. When given the choice, I would choose to expand my Dragon Age and make an already great game better than to invest in a new game that will likely get thrown aside in the near future. I'll be playing DAO for years to come.

[rogue1983]

nvm

Modifié par rogue1983, 09 février 2010 - 12:36 .