19 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterBellyButtonMan]

I know, LOL right? Seriously, I plan on doing a Dalish Rogue/Archer/Ranger type my next play through, (gotta hit all the origins). In the mean time a warrior archer looks like it could be workable with disengage to diminish aggro, powerful to reduce armor fatigue, and master archer to allow for heavier armors.

However, specializations are a bit of a pain since I am not sure if the damage increases apply to missile weapons. Champion and Templar for the group buffs and mental defenses as well as smite and war cry for smacking around aggroed opponents seems to be the logical choice. What have people tried and liked?

Also since I am on the console so strength contributes more to the bow than dex does for damage ATM but I worry more about hit rate since lots of damage is futile if you can't hit.

[Raze48]

You're barking up a sad, sad, low end damage tree.



I have spent the last 3 days respecing my characters to try and find a Archer build, Warrior or Rogue, that really works and isn't so boring I wanna kill myself. Couldn't seem to find one.



No matter what you are going to be doing about 45-55 damage per hit, and depending on what sustains you run won't even have enough Stamina to do a Arrow of Slaying most times unless you wait to turn them on.



Again though, my first play through was with an Arcane Warrior so I got spoiled and nothing is the same since when I play.

[SuperMedbh]

I don't know, I've played two archers now and had a lot of fun. Scattershot, stun them, AoS for literally hundreds of points of damage. But they were rogues who'd sneak in and do the scattershot before being detected. The one that worked better was a mixed dex and cunning rogue with lethality and song of courage. Not as much damage as a pure dex build would have been, but lots of fun sneaking around.



You do have to manage stamina, though. Song of courage plus a ranger pet plus scattershot/AoS would drain me. If I didn't need the pet, I could do more scattershots or sustain suppressing fire. Rejuvenation also helped (duh).

[Raze48]

Yea, I dunno, but maybe it's just me but I can't get in to any other character I start. Even my AW is boring as hell, the only fun/interactive class I find is a non-AW mage... Everything else just feel like paint drying.

[sarahkay]

I've tried a Dalish/warrior/archer before. I played her up until level 8 before Nightmare was too tough. (I quit at Castle Redcliffe while trying to kill the Mabari dogs.. epic fail!) She had Berserker, though it didn't work at all because you have to equip a melee weapon to activate Berserk. You CAN do that and switch to the bow, but it's a pain in the ass. The other specializations seem "meh" and maybe useless compared to the rogue's.



If there was a patch allowing archers to use Berserk... mmm...

[soteria]

I would say a warrior archer is great if you want to tank. Otherwise, go for the rogue. Check this thread out: http://social.biowar.../index/900538/1

[dkjestrup]

I think Archers are definitely underpowered. Soteria, while I'll admit they can tank fine, and solo the game, that a Dual Wield Warrior/Arcane Warrior would tank better, whilst doing far more damage/cc.

[soteria]

Sure. It's really down to what you enjoy playing, though. I'm not big into archery, but if someone wants to make an archer, I'm just going to point them in the right direction for what they want to do.

I mean, it's kinda obvious archery got the short shaft.  No runes, no poisons.  Instead, you get consumable(!!) arrows that do LESS than most runes or poisons would do.  Consider Elf-flight arrows, arguably the best, but they're basically a paralysis rune that runs out, or concentrated deathroot extract without the bonus damage. 

And then, you can put 12 points into archery and deal no more damage than anyone else with similar stats and a decent bow.  Every special has a very long animation, which, if it gets interrupted (even if it's just by losing LOS), eats the cooldown and the stamina cost.  The long animationsalso mean that you can't react to the enemy; you have to think several seconds ahead.  A regular warrior or rogue could run 30 yards and stun an archer winding up a Scattershot, but the archer has to eat it, ironically.

It's all very sad.  The upside is, the game is easy enough that if you build an archer well, you can still steamroll everything even on nightmare.

Modifié par soteria, 05 février 2010 - 04:45 .

[dkjestrup]

I realize that lol



Archery can be fun, but it really need runes and weapon buffs. I wonder why it doesn't? Maybe it was overpowered at first lol?

[MisterBellyButtonMan]

Thanks for the link to the thread. I think I am on the right track now. Slowly finding out Archery is sort of sad. At least as a Warrior.

[ninfan1]

Archery can be alright, but it requires the archer mod that reduces the 3 second cast time on archery abilities to 1.5 seconds. I wouldn't classify it as a cheat since it does the exact same to enemy archers, some of the fights they can seriously chew you up with this mod installed. As for Warrior v rogue..... it works with both. none of the specializations really do a thing for archery of either flavor, even with ranger it doesn't boost archery any more than it does any other rogue spec taking it. The warrior ones are a little less forgiving, Templar is useful for the purge effect, great for dealing with curse-happy enemies. Smite is useful, but only for what archers kill best, which is casters. Champ becomes kinda defacto, closest thing warriors get to bard, and if you're going to be standing at the back anyways you might as well be buffing.



A few places warriors win out over rogues for archers-



Better skill point allocation. the caveat of this is that you won't be opening locks or using stealth, but you can get everything you "need" much earlier.



Better stat allocation. Without the "go cunning" "no, go dex" debate to worry about it's pretty straightforward. Ultimately you'll get those milestone numbers sooner with a warrior.



Better stamina efficiency out of the box. Powerful and Death Blow are great for an archer, you can essentially subtract the Death Blow reward from arrow of slaying's cost most of the time. Holy Smite, well timed, can steal killing blows on several enemies. You'll also be running fewer sustained abilities.



I'm not trying to say the warrior is hands down better, but he has enough advantages as an archer to be competitive. It's all moot if you're not running/not able to run better archery, though.

[soteria]

Meh. Although I'm enjoying my warrior archer, and he's level 17, most of the warrior's "advantages" really comes down to lack of viable alternatives. Sure, you don't have to "worry" about dex vs cun, but that's just another way of saying you don't have a choice in the matter. Same with the talent points. Death blow you can't get till level 12, and it doesn't come close to paying for AoS, unless you're using it on the bottom half of an elite's health. Plus, with a 3 second cast time on specials, there are only two that are really worth using most of the time--scattershot and AoS--which a rogue can do unless you start the fight with every sustain running. Warriors run fewer sustains because the ones they have are worse.

If you look at what archers are supposed to be good at (killing mages), the rogue wins there, too, because of stealth.  The warrior needs extreme range or someone else in front to do the same job, or he runs the risk of getting hit with crushing prison or paralyze or fireball.  Stealth also means a free crit every 10 seconds, which the warrior can't replicate without critical shot.  Sure, he can afford to use it with deathblow, but is it worth spending twice as long to wind up a shot to do 1.5x as much damage?

The one thing I've found that the warrior archer is really good at is tanking.  He does great at that, no doubt, but any time you're not tanking, the rogue could do the same thing, but bring more utility and the same or better damage to the table.

Modifié par soteria, 06 février 2010 - 04:39 .

[ninfan1]

mileage may vary, and I'd never try to use an archer character at all without the mod "Improved Bow Talents" (got the name right this time) to reduce the cast time to 1.5x weapon speed instead of 3 seconds for all archery talents, cast by the player, allies, and enemies. Once using other shots becomes useful and viable, the better stamina efficiency of the warrior starts to shine. If you run precise striking and Aim together, while a little slow, the longbow becomes a sniper rifle of death with high damage, rarely missing, and impressive crit rating.



As to needing someone in front to get the job done on mages.... shattering shot has an unlisted knockdown, and pinning shot often forces a brief trap-style animation, and with the templar you can (eventually) get your hands on "mage death button". With the better cast time on shots it's very easy to keep a mage from casting for the short window of time you'll need to tear him apart.



The talent points you save by not "needing"(using quotes because plenty go without them) at least 3 points in stealth for combat stealth, and 3 in one of the other rogue lines to get lethality, plus very possibly taking multiple ranks of improved tools leaves you able to focus purely on damage, filling out the complete archery box fairly early in game, with points to spare. Not "needing" to pump points into cunning to get the most out of them gives you very high dex and strength much earlier, so you're wearing better armor, carrying better weapons, and filling out the rank 4 skills much sooner.



You miss out on some persuade conversation options, but you're able to capitalize on the threaten ones. You lose some finesse and a lot of utility, but you make up for it in raw damage, staying power, and survival. If you're planning on taking Zevran or Leliana in your group anyways, there's no real loss of rogue utility beyond origin story and Ostagar.



Again, not trying to say the warrior is categorically better than the rogue as an archer, but it's not a laughable decision to go that route, it does offer some advantages.

[simplificationizer]

Archery is all about the supressing fire debuff, with the occasional AoS headshot . It's a utility tree, mostly. Works best to complement that utility by going bard. If you want nuts damage look elsewhere.

[soteria]

As to needing someone in front to get the job done on mages.... shattering shot has an unlisted knockdown, and pinning shot often forces a brief trap-style animation, and with the templar you can (eventually) get your hands on "mage death button". With the better cast time on shots it's very easy to keep a mage from casting for the short window of time you'll need to tear him apart.

That's 100% dependent on having the mod you mentioned. With a three second cast time, most mages on nightmare are going to either fireball you or cast crushing prison, and by the time that is over you'll be trying to get past heroic aura and glyph of warding, meaning you won't be hitting them much at all.

The talent points you save by not "needing"(using quotes because plenty go without them) at least 3 points in stealth for combat stealth, and 3 in one of the other rogue lines to get lethality, plus very possibly taking multiple ranks of improved tools leaves you able to focus purely on damage, filling out the complete archery box fairly early in game, with points to spare. Not "needing" to pump points into cunning to get the most out of them gives you very high dex and strength much earlier, so you're wearing better armor, carrying better weapons, and filling out the rank 4 skills much sooner.

The rogue could easily ignore lockpicking talents and coup de grace, pick up combat stealth, use the same stats as the warrior, and be more effective because combat stealth >>> deathblow in an unmodded game. The ONLY things the warrior has going for it are deathblow, taunt (if you want to tank), and powerful.



I have a strong suspicious your use of this mod has skewed your perspective. I had this same discussion weeks ago with another person using the same mod.

[ninfan1]

it probably has, and I think I prefaced most if not all of my responses on the idea that anyone wanting to be competitive with archery, rogue or warrior, should be using it. the mandatory 3 second cast time is nonsensical, and I think the 1.5x weapon speed figure is far more reasonable, and it does a lot to make enemy archers realistic threats as well.



Again, I'm really not trying to be argumentative and I'm happy the back and forth has remained entirely civil. My goal in responding was to let people reading and wanting to create a warrior archer know what their strengths will be and how to get the most out of it. It's a far more straightforward style but is, with improved bow talents, an entirely viable way to build your warden. I should also learn to read better or I would have seen the first time that the OP was on Xbox 360 and so IBT isn't an option. big Mea Culpa there, but hopefully at least a few people who have poked into the thread are playing on PC and so they can take some value from my contributions to the discussion.



I like rogue archers as well, but I find I get too distracted by the fun you can have with stealth and end up littering any scripted battle field I can with traps. entirely not anyone's fault but my own, and possibly Tecmo for making "Tecmo's Deception". The warrior archer, modded, allows for a nice, straightforward, "I put an arrow in your head" style.

[Timortis]

Different strokes and all that. From my perspective, you're using a cheat to make playing an archer easier, I'd never do it. I can say, "hey I'd like my Warrior to do 300% more damage, I feel he's underpowered otherwise compared to Mages, so I'll use a mod for that", but then anything I say about Warriors becomes irrelevant for other players playing the game.

[ninfan1]

It's not really a cheat, it applies the same change to archery to the enemy archers. They're MUCH more dangerous now than before. I wouldn't use it if it just improved archery for the Warden, but it doesn't. It doesn't change the effect of the shots, it doesn't change the fact that the equip ammo is consumable, it doesn't increase hit rating, auto-attack speed, damage, or crit rating. It doesn't change the stamina cost of archery talents. It simply replaces the base 3 second cast time of all archery shots with a calculation of 1.5x weapon speed. It's equally modified by buffs and debuffs to attack speed. It's a re-balance of archery across the board.



I hate to get defensive but I don't like this being considered a cheat. A cheat is if it only benefits myself. If your 300% damage boost applied to all enemies of class "warrior" it wouldn't be a cheat, it's a mod. There IS a difference, and it's not just a linguistic one.

[beancounter501]

@soteria: Glad you got to test the characer out! Too bad archry is sill really weak. I had high hopes for a warrior archer. But alas, bioware hates ranged characters. Warrior or rogue seems better off going dual weld. Which I hate.

[Timortis]

ninfan1 wrote...

It's not really a cheat, it applies the same change to archery to the enemy archers.

And what happens, say, when you're fighting Branka? Which archers are much more dangerous, besides your buffed character? And as an archer with high defense, enemy archers already pose no threat to you, they're only dangerous for characters with low defense, they can't hit anyone else with anything other than Scattershot.