Aller au contenu

Photo

Music in Western RPGs


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
103 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Frozenflamekid

Frozenflamekid
  • Members
  • 74 messages
So it looks like Japanese RPGs have died at the hands of Western developers that can churn out a much better and more mature experience, both in repect to storytelling and gameplay mechanics. I think since about 4 years, Western RPGs have really been kicking some ass when it comes to storytelling, presentation, battle systems etc.

However, the only thing that Western developers still can't grasp is how important MUSIC is in video games. Japanese developers are much much better at creating music to complement their storytelling.

First of all, a game such as Dragon Age: Origins, with a playthrough time of roughly 50-70 hours should not, under any circumstance have a soundtrack of 17 tracks. I mean really...? 17 tracks, make that 14 if you take out the menu/loading screen theme, ending theme and Leliana's song. 14 songs....over 70 hours? WOW. That means that you can spend roughly 5 hours listening to each song on repeat while playing the game. This is not more evident than in Orzamar when you spend maybe 5-7 hours within the city dealing with the whole political situation. I though I am going to go NUTS listening to the Orzamar theme over and over and over again. I know that I can turn the music OFF.....but then what is the point of music?

Common guys....the original Metal Gear Solid...for the PlayStation....an action game with about 6 hours of gameplay had 21 music tracks!

I can point to many Western RPGs with the same proglem. Oblivion was a huge game...with over 100 hours of gameplay if you did all the quests....number of songs in the sountrack? 26. That's 3.8 hours per song.

What's worse about these soundtracks is that they are not very good. They are fodder most of the time, as if the developers created one track per 10 hours of gameplay....(track 1 - heroic music, track 2 - peaceful town, track 3 - large castle, track 4 - undergraound city, track 5 - elves in the forest, track 6 - battle music etc) And then they even fail to be original. Dwarves themes have lots of heavy instruments and elven music has little choir kids singing in alien languages blah blah blah.

Now look at some Japanese RPGs, starting with games that appered on the Super Nintendo. Back then, when develepors could not rely on graphics to tell stories in their games....(could not really use facial expressions or even cut scenes etc.)...they created amazing soundtracks that gave each location character. Each character often had a theme song, each location, each dungeon, each situation.....everything was based on music. It really drove games....And these theme very very simple...often midi tracks....and they are still better in many instances than the soundtracks that Western developers churn out these days.

As an example. Final Fantasy III (VI in the United States) had 3 disks of music with 61 tracks. Chrono Trigger had 65 tracks. Final Fantasy VII had 4 disks with 85 tracks. I can keep going....ending at Lost Odyssey for the Xbox 360 with 56 tracks.

And it's not even quantity over quality. All of these tracks had character and were designed specifically for storytelling. Each track had a purpose and added to the experience.

I strongly believe that Final Fantasy VII is such a huge cult classic not because of it's strong battle system (because its' not), not because of the graphics (because they are really bad), but simply because of how the music gives life to the characters and the world. When fighting Sephiroth at the end of the game....you saw a blocky figure being attacked by your blocky looking party members....but when you heard that Sephiroth theme....you could feel that this is it...and you got goosebumps.

When fighting the last boss in Dragon Age....**** I don't even remember what music was playing....felt like any other battle in the game.  

Simply put, Western developers must really step up and start taking music and sound way more seriously in their RPGs. I spend 70 playing your game....don't make me cringe through 7 hours of Orzamar theme....

A two hour movie usually has a soundtrack with 15-20 tracks. A 70 hour epic dark fantasy game should not have a 17 song soundtrack.....

Hopefully, you will not reuse the same music in Dragon Age Awakening....and hopefully a proper sequel will leave a more memorable musical landscape than the Origins did. :whistle:

#2
Caozen

Caozen
  • Members
  • 570 messages
You're right. Most of the musical pieces in Dragon Age are fairly remarkable, but the lack of quantity leaves me wanting. If not a lot of tracks, at least have a trademark theme. The title track in the main menu is amazing, but not quite memorable.



For a series like this, there should be that one track that sends geeky chills down our spines!


#3
wowpwnslol

wowpwnslol
  • Members
  • 1 037 messages
DA music was amazing and fitting for the world. Plus, who cares about the music? JRPGs are bad, so music can't really save them, even if they have over 9000 tracks. Dragon Age by itself trumps the entire JRPG industry. The fact they insist on not allowing proper character customization and force turned based combat down our throats means they will always be mediocre.

#4
Frozenflamekid

Frozenflamekid
  • Members
  • 74 messages

wowpwnslol wrote...

DA music was amazing and fitting for the world. Plus, who cares about the music? JRPGs are bad, so music can't really save them, even if they have over 9000 tracks. Dragon Age by itself trumps the entire JRPG industry. The fact they insist on not allowing proper character customization and force turned based combat down our throats means they will always be mediocre.


If you read my post....I say in the first sentence that Western RPGs are much better that JRPGs. BUt the music in Western RPGs in not varied or good enough..

I think you missed my point....I never said JRPGs are better games

#5
ShakeZoohla

ShakeZoohla
  • Members
  • 88 messages
Whoa whoa whoa. I will agree that Dragon Age's music was less than stellar, it seemed a little too standard for my tastes, but Mass Effect has the greatest music of any game I have ever played. The main menu alone is a beautifully-euphoric trip that sucks you right in to the amazing space journey that awaits.  The music is half of that game.

But your right Dragon Age needs cooler music.  Something more ambient.

Modifié par ShakeZoohla, 05 février 2010 - 03:15 .


#6
Bibdy

Bibdy
  • Members
  • 1 455 messages
And in recent news, internet forum poster makes disturbing conclusions from their own demented parallels and comparisons, turning what could have been a simple sentence stating "I want more, and better, music" into a massive spiel about JRPGs and how Bioware doesn't care about the quality of the music in their games.



More at 11.

#7
Wicked 702

Wicked 702
  • Members
  • 2 247 messages

wowpwnslol wrote...

DA music was amazing and fitting for the world. Plus, who cares about the music? JRPGs are bad, so music can't really save them, even if they have over 9000 tracks. Dragon Age by itself trumps the entire JRPG industry. The fact they insist on not allowing proper character customization and force turned based combat down our throats means they will always be mediocre.


I'm assuming this is an opinion post because it sounds like a troll post....

Your opinion that "JRPGs are bad" is frankly not shared by the rest of the world. If it was, you would not see Japanese games being made for foreign markets. "Dragon Age by itself trumps the entire JRPG industry" is just another opinion with nothing backing it up. What exactly makes Dragon Age better? Generic statements hold no weight.

Character customization? How so exactly? You mean being able to make your character look unique? Or do you mean being able to choose a class, skills, talent progression because I can name numerous JRPGs that do so. Final Fantasy Tactics come to mind. As does FFX and FFXII. Depends on what kind of "customization" you mean.

And with the "turned based combat" issue I hate to break it to you but Dragon Age, as well as every other Bioware game I've played (BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, KOTOW, etc.), is turn based. You might not see it happening as obviously, since the turns have become much faster than their Japanese counterparts, but they are there.

#8
Fexelea

Fexelea
  • Members
  • 1 688 messages

Tyrion-Imp wrote...

So it looks like Japanese RPGs have died at the hands of Western developers that can churn out a much better and more mature experience, both in repect to storytelling and gameplay mechanics. I think since about 4 years, Western RPGs have really been kicking some ass when it comes to storytelling, presentation, battle systems etc.


Sorry, but I have to call BS.

JRPGs are certainly not dead, and saying that they are immature is just silly. Maturity has nothing to do with audience: the fact that a western audience prefers certain themes over others does not mean the Japanese audience is immature.

One must not forget the incredible quantity of jrpgs that hit the market every year: the mass appeal of some of these "cartoonish" rpgs should not detract from the fact that plenty of other games feature mature stories and gameplay. Lost Odyssey and Demon's Souls are prime examples of JRPGs that comform to what would be considered "mature" by the WRPG gamer.

Before we start declaring the death of any contributor to the game industry based on a perception, it would be advisable to check on facts.

#9
Marbazoid

Marbazoid
  • Members
  • 299 messages
"So it looks like Japanese RPGs have died at the hands of Western developers that can churn out a much better and more mature experience"

JRPG's enjoy a niche in the western market, and will never be more or less than that due to the cultural barrier, same can be said about the western rpg in Japan.

Modifié par Marbazoid, 05 février 2010 - 04:06 .


#10
Vicious

Vicious
  • Members
  • 3 221 messages

JRPG's enjoy a niche in the western market, and will never be more or less than that due to the cultural barrier, same can be said about the western rpg market in Japan.




Pretty much, yeah.

#11
SleeplessInSigil

SleeplessInSigil
  • Members
  • 710 messages
Quoting myself from an existing jRPG thread:

Let's compare the recent best of here with the recent best of there;
Watch this: http://zoome.jp/violet/diary/184 (warning, possible spoilers)

^ That's probably from what appears to be one of the extremely-linear parts of FF13, but you'll notice the flawlessly-seamless integration of battles and cutscenes, the camera's movement during those, along with the events scripted into the main play engine, like the explosions etc. All coming together to form a noticeably more intense sequence than the last couple hours of DA:O, IMO (especially near the end of that video where you can definitely get a sense of something epic transpiring even if you may not understand what they're saying. DA kept falling short of the tension required to generate such a rise, except during the encounters with Loghain and where the other Warden fails, and maybe the BM build-up in the DR.)


oh and did I mention the memorable music?  :whistle:
That is one thing that WRPGs seem to be severely lacking in. If you asked me or any long-time JRPG fan to list out their favorite pieces, they'd readily mention a sizable number of tunes including some from as long as over a decade ago. Those soundtracks still keep inspiring hundreds of fan covers and remixes.

How many outstanding WRPG soundtracks can you think of? I can only recall most of the pieces from Planescape:Torment, the title and romance themes in Baldur's Gate II, and some of the songs in DA:O (intro, title, tavern, camp and Leliana's/Dalish Farewell.) The rest, forgettable. Indeed, you could leave the music turned off most of the time in DA:O and not notice its absence (especially during battles.)

So, IMO, the music alone is one thing right there that WRPGs could benefit from adapting for themselves. ^_^

#12
Marbazoid

Marbazoid
  • Members
  • 299 messages
It really comes down to a matter of taste. I think the best game soundtracks blend in with the level and create a mood, to the point where you can't really remember the exact song that was playing in that part of the game.

This along with a memorable main and end title theme is the best way to do it. Bioware always have great memorable tracks for their games but each track tries to do something memorable and it ends up becoming repetitive after an hour or two.

Bioshock is the perfect example of a soundtrack that is seamlessly part of the environment imo.

EDIT: KotOR also comes to mind, Taris and Dantooine especially!

Modifié par Marbazoid, 05 février 2010 - 04:18 .


#13
SleeplessInSigil

SleeplessInSigil
  • Members
  • 710 messages
As to JRPG vs. WRPG:
I've picked up Fallout 3 after finishing Dragon Age: Origins and frankly, the former has been a much more ..wow.. experience, despite the fact that it came out earlier and both had spent around the same amount of time in development.


Most DA fans here have gone aghast upon reading comparisons like that, but here's the funny thing: the reasons you may dislike FO3 for, when comparing to DA are the exact same factors which'd make Final Fantasy XIII superior to DA.

Yes:

but nevermind all that, how many JRPGs has Tyrion-Imp played anyway?

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 05 février 2010 - 04:22 .


#14
Spuro

Spuro
  • Members
  • 136 messages
Yes, JRPG music has always been better than the WRPG music in general in my opinion. People worldwide buy JRPG soundtrack CDs and would pay quite a bit of money for them too. JRPG music has been used in media outside of video games. I remember my high school music department taught Aeris' Theme from Final Fantasy VII to its piano students, and my friend who was a learning the piece didn't even know it originated from a video game score until I told him.



DA:O does have some decent music though. I think the main theme is quite memorable actually, and when it plays during the battle of Denerim it is something I vividly remember.

#15
7th_Phoenix

7th_Phoenix
  • Members
  • 788 messages

Spuro wrote...

Yes, JRPG music has always been better than the WRPG music in general in my opinion. People worldwide buy JRPG soundtrack CDs and would pay quite a bit of money for them too. JRPG music has been used in media outside of video games. I remember my high school music department taught Aeris' Theme from Final Fantasy VII to its piano students, and my friend who was a learning the piece didn't even know it originated from a video game score until I told him.

DA:O does have some decent music though. I think the main theme is quite memorable actually, and when it plays during the battle of Denerim it is something I vividly remember.


I agree. I love the music FFVII just as much as I do DA:O, the main theme is amazing and I always look forward to hearing it whenever I launch the game. With KOTOR I was touched by "Bastila Shan's Theme" but moreover the "Love Theme" from ME1 which remains to be one of my favorite pieces of a video game's original score.

Overall, music in RPGs, or any video game, has to be good if we're going to spend hours playing it, so the background music should be pleasant and enjoyable and I always tend be more impressed with video games more than I am with movies especially RPGs, although I do prefer Western RPGs.

#16
Wicked 702

Wicked 702
  • Members
  • 2 247 messages

Spuro wrote...

Yes, JRPG music has always been better than the WRPG music in general in my opinion. People worldwide buy JRPG soundtrack CDs and would pay quite a bit of money for them too. JRPG music has been used in media outside of video games. I remember my high school music department taught Aeris' Theme from Final Fantasy VII to its piano students, and my friend who was a learning the piece didn't even know it originated from a video game score until I told him.

DA:O does have some decent music though. I think the main theme is quite memorable actually, and when it plays during the battle of Denerim it is something I vividly remember.


I bought the Piano score to FFVII: Advent Children specifically so I could have the ability to play that song myself. Frankly, it's just breathtaking....

#17
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages
Mass Effect 1 had a brilliant OST list. Not the second one unfortunately.

#18
SleeplessInSigil

SleeplessInSigil
  • Members
  • 710 messages
BTW, on the other hand:

Dragon Age: Origins vs. Fallout 3, in terms of music, both by Inon Zur

[Re]Discovering an old favorite ♪, thanks to FO3

<3

#19
Stuffy38

Stuffy38
  • Members
  • 345 messages
Well I really don't know about all this. Music is usually the first thing I switch off in any game, usually after a few hours. Although I must admit I only turned it down in Dragon Age, not all the way off. Mass Effect 2's music was brilliant though, I left that on.

Can't really understand the big deal with Japanese RPGs - whatever does it for you I guess.

#20
Silensfurtim

Silensfurtim
  • Members
  • 904 messages
for me current music in western RPGs just fits. i would be disappointed if lets say a japanese composer makes a FFXIII-like music for DAO.



JRPG music is made for JRPG.



How would you feel if LOTR used similar JRPG music from FFXIII as the musical score? thats f*cked up.


#21
Silensfurtim

Silensfurtim
  • Members
  • 904 messages
its so funny how westerners revere anything asian/easter/japanese. maybe its the exotic factor i guess lol.

im asian so eastern/japanese/asian stuff isnt really special for me. as for western stuff, its okay. i play WRPGs mostly so I prefer western stuff. but i dont really revere them.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 05 février 2010 - 04:57 .


#22
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 733 messages

SleeplessInSigil wrote...
Most DA fans here have gone aghast upon reading comparisons like that, but here's the funny thing: the reasons you may dislike FO3 for, when comparing to DA are the exact same factors which'd make Final Fantasy XIII superior to DA.


Hmm ... so since I didn't like FO3 much , I shouldn't bother with FF XIII? Good to know, but I gave up on JRPGs eons ago.

#23
Challseus

Challseus
  • Members
  • 1 032 messages
I'm going to have to agree 100% with the OP. I've said it many times before, but the music in Western RPG's is too ambient like for my tastes. It's like it could be plug and played in any part of the game. Now, with JRPG music, it's much more situational, and in my opinion, just better.

It's funny this thread came up, because I was just listening to the music from Final Fantasy IV this morning. Like any JRPG music fan, I have all the Final Fantasies, Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, etc. on my iPod. While I do have the Dragon Age soundtrack as well, the only songs I listen to are the main theme, and Leliana's Song.

In the end though, I guess it's just a style/opinion thing. It didn't detract from my overral enjoyment of the game.

#24
Guest_Bio-Boy 3000_*

Guest_Bio-Boy 3000_*
  • Guests
I am going to have to agree that most of the sound track that Inon Zur did for Dragon Age is rather forgettable, save a few. I don't even have the music on anymore and play my preferred genre when I fire up Dragon Age. I was actually hoping that Jack Wall would have been the composer for the sound track. His work on Jade Empire is one of my favorites for setting the mood to the game.

#25
Challseus

Challseus
  • Members
  • 1 032 messages

SleeplessInSigil wrote...



The music that plays halfway through that trailer (Kimi Ga Iru Kara by Sugawara Sayuri) is ridiculous! I had to download it as soon as I could find it. I get goose bumps every time I listen to it. Can't believe that after 25 years, Nobuo Uematsu still has it!